Replying to the bolded bit, I don't believe that's true.
Let's see if I can voice this right. Pack Rat does synergize with 8rack. While the discard gameplan may not benefit from the rats, the rats benefit from the discard gameplan. As we've already established, an unanswered pack rat can be a game winning threat. Almost comparable to watching a planeswalker inexorably tick up when you have no way to stop it. IMO, 8rack is probably the best deck in modern for placing an opponent in a position where they are unable to answer the rat. Our discard suite both provides intel and limits the opponent's options which can free up an opportunity for rats to just get out of control.
For example, if our T1 Inquisition of Kozilek reveals that they have no removal in hand or only a single piece of removal, we can pave the way to go all-in on rats and play out the game like we're some weird twist on merfolk except every card in our deck is a rat lord instead of lord of atlantis.
The same is true if our discard engines force them into topdeck mode. With no cards in hand and their options severely limited, our opponent is likely only able to helplessly watch as we drop a rat and start the doomsday clock.
If I'm understanding you correctly you're saying that discard acts as a sort of proactive shield and the Rats flourish under said shield.
Is that really "synergy"? I guess so but it seems almost coincidental. Couldn't counterspells also provide a similar "synergy"? Leave 3 mana open for a cancel and at EOT if they don't play something activate the Rat (well maybe not cancel per say...I wonder why nobody does this?).
Doesn't almost every card benefit from this synergy? Would you say Hangarback Walker and Tasigur, the Golden Fang have synergy with the 8Rack core or would you identify them more as "goodstuff"?
I'm not saying don't run the rat. It's very effective and at the end of the day that's all that really matters right? I just don't really consider it a synergy. At least not in the same obvious way Asylum Visitor, Ensnaring Bridge or Lupine Prototype is.
T1-T4: do normal 8Racky things
T5: drop rat make rat
T6: swing with 2 rats and 2 mutavaults for 12 with mana to spare
I just wanted to bring this up as at least in my meta this is a BIG problem. It feels like 8rack is a Turn 6 deck in a Turn 4 Meta/World. I always feel like I am behind and pray I can hold on to turn 5 or 6 and be out of Lightning Bolt range. I won't post it here but save it for the 8rackdos thread, but I feel I need to jump the curve. Other decks do it or play "better" cards on T2 and T3 than us lots of the time. I am going to try to speed it up with my list. I feel the Meta is speeding up and we are falling behind. Wizards isn't going to print us faster or bigger discard at low cmc so I've got to innovate on my own. Good luck to all and Rob please don't think I'm trying to belittle you or your efforts. Your expertise in this deck is much appreciated.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I just wanted to bring this up as at least in my meta this is a BIG problem. It feels like 8rack is a Turn 6 deck in a Turn 4 Meta/World. I always feel like I am behind and pray I can hold on to turn 5 or 6 and be out of Lightning Bolt range. I won't post it here but save it for the 8rackdos thread, but I feel I need to jump the curve. Other decks do it or play "better" cards on T2 and T3 than us lots of the time. I am going to try to speed it up with my list. I feel the Meta is speeding up and we are falling behind. Wizards isn't going to print us faster or bigger discard at low cmc so I've got to innovate on my own. Good luck to all and Rob please don't think I'm trying to belittle you or your efforts. Your expertise in this deck is much appreciated.
It sounds a lot like you are planning to leave and I want to strongly urge against that. The 8Rack community is small as-is, I have never managed to understand why we keep constantly splitting. Does it matter if somebody is playing a BR or BW deck instead of a mono-black one? I mean, does it really matter that much? On the contrary, I think diversity is what makes progress. There is no way to find the strongest build without exploring every option out there. Why do we keep splitting instead of pooling our resources together, can somebody tell me that?
We should be a warm and welcoming home to everybody who plays 8Rack. With Pack Rat, with Collective Brutality, with Lightning Bolt, with Lingering Souls, with Abrupt Decay, with... yes, with that thing you just thought of, too. I have clearly stated that for me, a BR build is way more powerful than a mono-black one, exactly for the reasons @WarMachinePrime listed. Nevertheless we are, or should be, one community. More brains tackling one problem means more and better solutions. I welcome all.
Oh no, I'm not leaving, just taking a different path. We are stronger as a group. I just can't take the Pack Rat path. The meta is evolving, I believe I need to do the same. Thanks for the kind words. I'm not going anywhere really, just taking a tangent.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Would just like to go on-record as being a full supporter of a Creature-less MB with 8Rack. Without creatures, the opponent's removal is dead. This allows me to focus purely on their creatures/offensive strategy, slowing them enough to allow me to set up shop with Lili/Rack and tick them down.
To @WarMachinePrime's point, all the points made for Pack Rat seem like they could be made for any creature in a Rack deck. Pack Rat is an awesome creature, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather focus purely on 8Rack's primary objective. I currently have 3 in my SB but am even considering removing them for another Damnation and Fulminator Mage.
Alternatively, I absolutely love Bitterblossom in my main. No one wants to use removal on a 1/1 token that will just come back next turn and it does a fantastic job of chumping down an opponent until I can draw removal or rack.
To each their own, but I didn't want WarMachine and Esperino to think they were alone here!
I'm with you on Bitterblossom. If someone held a gun to my head and said I have to run BB or PR I'd go BB. And I love the fact that removal doesn't have a target many times. I have that exact thing in my mind right now as I'm re-brewing my deck. I have the need to try to innovate at least. I feel stagnation setting in.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I have always been vocal about Bitterblossom being in my mono-black lists and I think the last lists I posted are among the few I've ever had without BB in them. It was a last-minute cut.
Is 8-Rack really not tier 2? I thought it was a reasonably competitive deck. New to modern, and I've always loved discard, so I wanted to jump in here.
Is 8-Rack really not tier 2? I thought it was a reasonably competitive deck. New to modern, and I've always loved discard, so I wanted to jump in here.
Tiers refer to quantity as opposed to quality. Very few people actually play the deck so it's Tier 3 at best.
Is 8-Rack really not tier 2? I thought it was a reasonably competitive deck. New to modern, and I've always loved discard, so I wanted to jump in here.
Tiers refer to quantity as opposed to quality. Very few people actually play the deck so it's Tier 3 at best.
Okay, thanks for the info. So 8-Rack plays well in competitive environments?
I'm with you on Bitterblossom. If someone held a gun to my head and said I have to run BB or PR I'd go BB. And I love the fact that removal doesn't have a target many times. I have that exact thing in my mind right now as I'm re-brewing my deck. I have the need to try to innovate at least. I feel stagnation setting in.
Here's what I'm running with right now. Would love to hear your thoughts. SB is somewhat in flux - feel free to throw out ideas there, too.
Replying to the bolded bit, I don't believe that's true.
Let's see if I can voice this right. Pack Rat does synergize with 8rack. While the discard gameplan may not benefit from the rats, the rats benefit from the discard gameplan. As we've already established, an unanswered pack rat can be a game winning threat. Almost comparable to watching a planeswalker inexorably tick up when you have no way to stop it. IMO, 8rack is probably the best deck in modern for placing an opponent in a position where they are unable to answer the rat. Our discard suite both provides intel and limits the opponent's options which can free up an opportunity for rats to just get out of control.
For example, if our T1 Inquisition of Kozilek reveals that they have no removal in hand or only a single piece of removal, we can pave the way to go all-in on rats and play out the game like we're some weird twist on merfolk except every card in our deck is a rat lord instead of lord of atlantis.
The same is true if our discard engines force them into topdeck mode. With no cards in hand and their options severely limited, our opponent is likely only able to helplessly watch as we drop a rat and start the doomsday clock.
If I'm understanding you correctly you're saying that discard acts as a sort of proactive shield and the Rats flourish under said shield.
Is that really "synergy"? I guess so but it seems almost coincidental. Couldn't counterspells also provide a similar "synergy"? Leave 3 mana open for a cancel and at EOT if they don't play something activate the Rat (well maybe not cancel per say...I wonder why nobody does this?).
Doesn't almost every card benefit from this synergy? Would you say Hangarback Walker and Tasigur, the Golden Fang have synergy with the 8Rack core or would you identify them more as "goodstuff"?
I'm not saying don't run the rat. It's very effective and at the end of the day that's all that really matters right? I just don't really consider it a synergy. At least not in the same obvious way Asylum Visitor, Ensnaring Bridge or Lupine Prototype is.
A simple definition of synergy is "the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects."
Technically every creature synergizes with stripping the opponent of their immediate answers. The reason I consider 8rack more synergistic with pack rat is because the payoff for rat is much higher than most other creatures because most creatures can still be fairly readily answered by a topdeck a few turns down the road, yet pack rat only has to live for a narrow window before it becomes signifcantly harder to stop. For example, forcing the opponent to discard their Go for the Throat will protect both Tasigur, the golden fang and Pack Rat. But if they draw a new Go for the Throat in a few turns, then tasigur is out of the fight. But even though GFTT would have been an answer to pack rat a few turns ago, it can't do much at all against duplicate rats. There are comparatively very few cards that can stop a rat swarm once it gets going (Maelstrom Pulse is probably the most prolific).
Pack rat does take some time to get up to speed in offensive power, which is why it isn't adopted by aggro/midrange decks. But as MemoryLapse pointed out, we are a control deck and we do tend to draw games out as far as turn counts are concerned. At its core, what this deck does is disrupt the opponent's gameplan with gratuitous hand disruption and then set a hard to stop clock. A growing pile of rats is as much of a clock as an active rack or liliana ticking up to her ult.
edit:
I also don't view the counterspell situation as a parallel. With the counterspell, you're going out of your way to setup rat. In 8rack, the rat capitalizes on the environment that 8rack strives to create under normal circumstances.
Replying to the bolded bit, I don't believe that's true.
Let's see if I can voice this right. Pack Rat does synergize with 8rack. While the discard gameplan may not benefit from the rats, the rats benefit from the discard gameplan. As we've already established, an unanswered pack rat can be a game winning threat. Almost comparable to watching a planeswalker inexorably tick up when you have no way to stop it. IMO, 8rack is probably the best deck in modern for placing an opponent in a position where they are unable to answer the rat. Our discard suite both provides intel and limits the opponent's options which can free up an opportunity for rats to just get out of control.
For example, if our T1 Inquisition of Kozilek reveals that they have no removal in hand or only a single piece of removal, we can pave the way to go all-in on rats and play out the game like we're some weird twist on merfolk except every card in our deck is a rat lord instead of lord of atlantis.
The same is true if our discard engines force them into topdeck mode. With no cards in hand and their options severely limited, our opponent is likely only able to helplessly watch as we drop a rat and start the doomsday clock.
If I'm understanding you correctly you're saying that discard acts as a sort of proactive shield and the Rats flourish under said shield.
Is that really "synergy"? I guess so but it seems almost coincidental. Couldn't counterspells also provide a similar "synergy"? Leave 3 mana open for a cancel and at EOT if they don't play something activate the Rat (well maybe not cancel per say...I wonder why nobody does this?).
Doesn't almost every card benefit from this synergy? Would you say Hangarback Walker and Tasigur, the Golden Fang have synergy with the 8Rack core or would you identify them more as "goodstuff"?
I'm not saying don't run the rat. It's very effective and at the end of the day that's all that really matters right? I just don't really consider it a synergy. At least not in the same obvious way Asylum Visitor, Ensnaring Bridge or Lupine Prototype is.
A simple definition of synergy is "the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects."
Technically every creature synergizes with stripping the opponent of their immediate answers. The reason I consider 8rack more synergistic with pack rat is because the payoff for rat is much higher than most other creatures because most creatures can still be fairly readily answered by a topdeck a few turns down the road, yet pack rat only has to live for a narrow window before it becomes signifcantly harder to stop. For example, forcing the opponent to discard their Go for the Throat will protect both Tasigur, the golden fang and Pack Rat. But if they draw a new Go for the Throat in a few turns, then tasigur is out of the fight. But even though GFTT would have been an answer to pack rat a few turns ago, it can't do much at all against duplicate rats. There are comparatively very few cards that can stop a rat swarm once it gets going (Maelstrom Pulse is probably the most prolific).
Pack rat does take some time to get up to speed in offensive power, which is why it isn't adopted by aggro/midrange decks. But as MemoryLapse pointed out, we are a control deck and we do tend to draw games out as far as turn counts are concerned. At its core, what this deck does is disrupt the opponent's gameplan with gratuitous hand disruption and then set a hard to stop clock. A growing pile of rats is as much of a clock as an active rack or liliana ticking up to her ult.
edit:
I also don't view the counterspell situation as a parallel. With the counterspell, you're going out of your way to setup rat. In 8rack, the rat capitalizes on the environment that 8rack strives to create under normal circumstances.
Perfectly put. I feel like you have a complete mastery of the strat.
But as MemoryLapse pointed out, we are a control deck and we do tend to draw games out as far as turn counts are concerned.
Well said, but again I will reiterate, mono-Black 8rack is a turn 6+ deck in an increasingly turn 4 meta. Decks are getting faster and stronger it seems in the last year or so (at least to my observation). Tons of fast creature heavy decks seem to be inching their way into the meta. We for sure aren't getting faster. And it doesn't seem like we are getting the cards that make our engine more powerful. To me change is needed. I'm working on my own BR version right now. Put me in the camp that Pack Rat is not the future of this deck unless something comes along to boost its efficiency. We all have our opinions. Good luck whatever your strategy.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Slipping back into the Pack Rat strategy for those that play them. What are your thoughts on Cryptbreaker? Strictly worse due to the tap function? Just B seems appealing to cast. And 2 mana instead of 3 for the token seems value on first inspection. And I could see actually running this with Ensnaring Bridge due to the card drawing ability of tapping 3 Zombies. I'm not going that route but if you like Pack Rat and want to run MB Bridge, this could be an option, albeit one that doesn't seem great just marginal. Thoughts?
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I don't think it's better. Having to tap is a dealbreaker for me and while being cheaper is really nice it is a much longer clock than PR is. Playing him and the first activation is better value then PR but after that PR is a lot more threatening.
Slipping back into the Pack Rat strategy for those that play them. What are your thoughts on Cryptbreaker? Strictly worse due to the tap function? Just B seems appealing to cast. And 2 mana instead of 3 for the token seems value on first inspection. And I could see actually running this with Ensnaring Bridge due to the card drawing ability of tapping 3 Zombies. I'm not going that route but if you like Pack Rat and want to run MB Bridge, this could be an option, albeit one that doesn't seem great just marginal. Thoughts?
At 1cc its probably worth taking a look at. Gut feeling tells me Rat is better because it takes over an empty board so fast. But regarding your statement that 8Rack is a Turn6+ deck in a Turn 4 format...so what?
A Turn 4 format means the fast, all in, committed decks represent lethal damage on turn 4 when unmolested. But control decks tend deal with their threats in a timely manner thus turning a turn 4 deck into a turn 6+ affair. We drag fast decks into extra innings where we thrive, thats the whole point of 8Rack. We aren't trying to race fast decks we are trying to stall them.
I've been thinking in a effective way to use Whispers of emrakul as a replacement of Wrench mind as a start. I also did a modification on the argument of the deck adding bloodghast and using smallpox and fetch but keeping mono black and the wining condition of the racks.
But as MemoryLapse pointed out, we are a control deck and we do tend to draw games out as far as turn counts are concerned.
Well said, but again I will reiterate, mono-Black 8rack is a turn 6+ deck in an increasingly turn 4 meta. Decks are getting faster and stronger it seems in the last year or so (at least to my observation). Tons of fast creature heavy decks seem to be inching their way into the meta. We for sure aren't getting faster. And it doesn't seem like we are getting the cards that make our engine more powerful. To me change is needed. I'm working on my own BR version right now. Put me in the camp that Pack Rat is not the future of this deck unless something comes along to boost its efficiency. We all have our opinions. Good luck whatever your strategy.
For the most part, I agree. It feels as though design is constantly pushing the envelope with creature design, while non-creature spells are frequently being designed by taking an old spell and making it worse unless some condition is met.
I mostly just wanted to voice my opinion about how pack rat does synergize with 8rack and can have a place in the deck. Whether or not it is the best fit for our 75 is a lot more debatable. You can say the same thing about Necrogen Mists. Mists is exactly the sort of discard engine that 8rack strives to use (and frequently is in budget lists), but is muscled out because of essentially universal consensus that Liliana of the Veil is far superior except in fringe cases that almost aren't even worth mentioning. But if LotV were to be banned tomorrow, then 8rack would swap over to mists.
As far as cryptbreaker is concerned, I personally believe rats are superior because the rat swarm is more resilient since each rat token has the token generation ability. Cryptbreaker create generic tokens, so our token generation is shut down when cryptbreaker is killed.
Personally my pet favorite card in 8rack is smallpox. It can be a huge wrench in an opponent's gameplan. It can kill off a fast creature play and throw off the opponent's curve something fierce. In general I think we come out of the exchange better than our opponent 9 times out of 10, however my opinion is that it blows up in our face just a bit too often to expect the card to carry you through a large tournament. I think potential is there and I keep my eyes peeled each spoiler season for cards that might be usable by 8rack and also can potentially shift the smallpox exchange more in our favor.
Setting up delirium to turn whispers of emrakul into a hymn to tourach is intriguing. Whether or not it is reliable enough to be worth the effort to setup a hymn is questionable, but I want to try it. Which brings me to talgardo
I've been thinking in a effective way to use Whispers of emrakul as a replacement of Wrench mind as a start. I also did a modification on the argument of the deck adding bloodghast and using smallpox and fetch but keeping mono black and the wining condition of the racks.
When using Whispers of Emrakul, I think it is important to ask yourself how quickly you can potentially set up a full hymn and how likely such a scenario is to occur. Do you need to make any "weaker" plays to achieve a full hymn early?
To me, it looks like the fastest that you can cast a full hymn is T3 and that you need to cast an instant on T1 and a smallpox on T2 to get an artifact/enchantment/creature into the yard. The T1 play of Funeral Charm or Dismember are generally going to be much weaker plays than a T1 Inqusition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize.
So that you're not completely reliant on a T2 smallpox to setup delerium, you could consider running some copies of Collective Brutality to act as additional smallpoxes of sorts. They're both cards that perform relatively powerful T2 plays by assaulting multiple of your opponent's resources while costing you some cards of your own (in this case, potentially letting you enable delirium by the end of T2).
IMO, you should be playing some dual-typed cards so that it is much easier to set off delerium. By far the easiest to slip into the deck is bitterblossom (it is both an enchantment and a tribal card).
Artifact creatures fit the bill of a dual typed card. You should look through those to see if any catch your eye (most recently Lupine Prototype has been mentioned), but I haven't looked through the full list again this evening. Spellskite is always popular.
Enchantment creatures are things, but most probably aren't useful enough to be worth running. Brain Maggot is probably the closest fit but still sort of weak, Thassa, God of the Sea might at least help use improve the quality of our topdecks, but I don't think I'd give up a slot in my deck for that alone. Erebos, God of the Dead and Mogis, God of Slaughter can help either build card advantage or hurt the opponent, but they're expensive at 4cmc and we probably don't want to use them because the effect is weak for their cost considering that we'll almost never turn them into creatures.
The god-weapon cycle are double-typed as enchantment artifacts, but none of them really mesh with the deck beyond the fact that they all would make bitterblossom's fairy tokens better. Bow of Nylea and Whip of Erebos both essentially counteract the life loss of creating the fairies, and bident of thassa would generate a ton of card advantage with bitterblossom fairies swarming. I personally don't think any of these really have a place in our 75, but I figured it was worth mentioning them for verbosity with dual-typed cards and if you ever wanted try to work work the deck into something with a bit of a token swarm side-theme.
While mutavault is a tried and true card, I would consider playing Darksteel Citadel in a deck that is basically a testbed for Whispers of Emrakul. If whispers proves useful, then I would considering bringing some mutavaults back in. Dryad Arbor is also dual typed, but suffers from summoning sickness.
If I were to try to tweak your list a bit, I might try swapping out some of the pieces to make it look like this instead.
The fastest you can cast a full hymn is still turn 3, but IMO I think that you'll have an easier time setting up Delirum with the addition of these dual typed cards and with collective brutality assisting smallpox in setting up delerium for Whispers. You also don't need to "waste" your T1 by casting an instant instead of TS or IoK. Although if you're going to run all those fetchlands, you should consider trying to see if you can splash some supporting cards from other colors in or perhaps make use other popular lands like Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace.
Is that really "synergy"? I guess so but it seems almost coincidental. Couldn't counterspells also provide a similar "synergy"? Leave 3 mana open for a cancel and at EOT if they don't play something activate the Rat (well maybe not cancel per say...I wonder why nobody does this?).
Doesn't almost every card benefit from this synergy? Would you say Hangarback Walker and Tasigur, the Golden Fang have synergy with the 8Rack core or would you identify them more as "goodstuff"?
I'm not saying don't run the rat. It's very effective and at the end of the day that's all that really matters right? I just don't really consider it a synergy. At least not in the same obvious way Asylum Visitor, Ensnaring Bridge or Lupine Prototype is.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I just wanted to bring this up as at least in my meta this is a BIG problem. It feels like 8rack is a Turn 6 deck in a Turn 4 Meta/World. I always feel like I am behind and pray I can hold on to turn 5 or 6 and be out of Lightning Bolt range. I won't post it here but save it for the 8rackdos thread, but I feel I need to jump the curve. Other decks do it or play "better" cards on T2 and T3 than us lots of the time. I am going to try to speed it up with my list. I feel the Meta is speeding up and we are falling behind. Wizards isn't going to print us faster or bigger discard at low cmc so I've got to innovate on my own. Good luck to all and Rob please don't think I'm trying to belittle you or your efforts. Your expertise in this deck is much appreciated.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
It sounds a lot like you are planning to leave and I want to strongly urge against that. The 8Rack community is small as-is, I have never managed to understand why we keep constantly splitting. Does it matter if somebody is playing a BR or BW deck instead of a mono-black one? I mean, does it really matter that much? On the contrary, I think diversity is what makes progress. There is no way to find the strongest build without exploring every option out there. Why do we keep splitting instead of pooling our resources together, can somebody tell me that?
We should be a warm and welcoming home to everybody who plays 8Rack. With Pack Rat, with Collective Brutality, with Lightning Bolt, with Lingering Souls, with Abrupt Decay, with... yes, with that thing you just thought of, too. I have clearly stated that for me, a BR build is way more powerful than a mono-black one, exactly for the reasons @WarMachinePrime listed. Nevertheless we are, or should be, one community. More brains tackling one problem means more and better solutions. I welcome all.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
To @WarMachinePrime's point, all the points made for Pack Rat seem like they could be made for any creature in a Rack deck. Pack Rat is an awesome creature, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather focus purely on 8Rack's primary objective. I currently have 3 in my SB but am even considering removing them for another Damnation and Fulminator Mage.
Alternatively, I absolutely love Bitterblossom in my main. No one wants to use removal on a 1/1 token that will just come back next turn and it does a fantastic job of chumping down an opponent until I can draw removal or rack.
To each their own, but I didn't want WarMachine and Esperino to think they were alone here!
I'm with you on Bitterblossom. If someone held a gun to my head and said I have to run BB or PR I'd go BB. And I love the fact that removal doesn't have a target many times. I have that exact thing in my mind right now as I'm re-brewing my deck. I have the need to try to innovate at least. I feel stagnation setting in.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Okay, thanks for the info. So 8-Rack plays well in competitive environments?
Too unreliable in combat, dies to everything, struggles to help when we are behind
I use 1 as sideboard antileyline tech
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Here's what I'm running with right now. Would love to hear your thoughts. SB is somewhat in flux - feel free to throw out ideas there, too.
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Victim of Night
2 Blackmail
4 Wrench Mind
2 Bitterblossom
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Dismember
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Raven's Crime
4 Mutavault
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
14 Swamp
3 Pack Rat
2 Pithing Needle
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Darkblast
2 Fulminator Mage
A simple definition of synergy is "the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects."
Technically every creature synergizes with stripping the opponent of their immediate answers. The reason I consider 8rack more synergistic with pack rat is because the payoff for rat is much higher than most other creatures because most creatures can still be fairly readily answered by a topdeck a few turns down the road, yet pack rat only has to live for a narrow window before it becomes signifcantly harder to stop. For example, forcing the opponent to discard their Go for the Throat will protect both Tasigur, the golden fang and Pack Rat. But if they draw a new Go for the Throat in a few turns, then tasigur is out of the fight. But even though GFTT would have been an answer to pack rat a few turns ago, it can't do much at all against duplicate rats. There are comparatively very few cards that can stop a rat swarm once it gets going (Maelstrom Pulse is probably the most prolific).
Pack rat does take some time to get up to speed in offensive power, which is why it isn't adopted by aggro/midrange decks. But as MemoryLapse pointed out, we are a control deck and we do tend to draw games out as far as turn counts are concerned. At its core, what this deck does is disrupt the opponent's gameplan with gratuitous hand disruption and then set a hard to stop clock. A growing pile of rats is as much of a clock as an active rack or liliana ticking up to her ult.
edit:
I also don't view the counterspell situation as a parallel. With the counterspell, you're going out of your way to setup rat. In 8rack, the rat capitalizes on the environment that 8rack strives to create under normal circumstances.
Perfectly put. I feel like you have a complete mastery of the strat.
Well said, but again I will reiterate, mono-Black 8rack is a turn 6+ deck in an increasingly turn 4 meta. Decks are getting faster and stronger it seems in the last year or so (at least to my observation). Tons of fast creature heavy decks seem to be inching their way into the meta. We for sure aren't getting faster. And it doesn't seem like we are getting the cards that make our engine more powerful. To me change is needed. I'm working on my own BR version right now. Put me in the camp that Pack Rat is not the future of this deck unless something comes along to boost its efficiency. We all have our opinions. Good luck whatever your strategy.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
At 1cc its probably worth taking a look at. Gut feeling tells me Rat is better because it takes over an empty board so fast. But regarding your statement that 8Rack is a Turn6+ deck in a Turn 4 format...so what?
A Turn 4 format means the fast, all in, committed decks represent lethal damage on turn 4 when unmolested. But control decks tend deal with their threats in a timely manner thus turning a turn 4 deck into a turn 6+ affair. We drag fast decks into extra innings where we thrive, thats the whole point of 8Rack. We aren't trying to race fast decks we are trying to stall them.
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Dakmor Salvage
4x Dismember
2x Funeral Charm
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Leechridden Swamp
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Mutavault
2x Raven's Crime
3x Shrieking Affliction
4x Smallpox
6x Swamp
3x The Rack
3x Thoughtseize
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Whispers of Emrakul
I've been thinking in a effective way to use Whispers of emrakul as a replacement of Wrench mind as a start. I also did a modification on the argument of the deck adding bloodghast and using smallpox and fetch but keeping mono black and the wining condition of the racks.
What do you think about it?
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/hymn-of-emrakul/
For the most part, I agree. It feels as though design is constantly pushing the envelope with creature design, while non-creature spells are frequently being designed by taking an old spell and making it worse unless some condition is met.
I mostly just wanted to voice my opinion about how pack rat does synergize with 8rack and can have a place in the deck. Whether or not it is the best fit for our 75 is a lot more debatable. You can say the same thing about Necrogen Mists. Mists is exactly the sort of discard engine that 8rack strives to use (and frequently is in budget lists), but is muscled out because of essentially universal consensus that Liliana of the Veil is far superior except in fringe cases that almost aren't even worth mentioning. But if LotV were to be banned tomorrow, then 8rack would swap over to mists.
As far as cryptbreaker is concerned, I personally believe rats are superior because the rat swarm is more resilient since each rat token has the token generation ability. Cryptbreaker create generic tokens, so our token generation is shut down when cryptbreaker is killed.
Personally my pet favorite card in 8rack is smallpox. It can be a huge wrench in an opponent's gameplan. It can kill off a fast creature play and throw off the opponent's curve something fierce. In general I think we come out of the exchange better than our opponent 9 times out of 10, however my opinion is that it blows up in our face just a bit too often to expect the card to carry you through a large tournament. I think potential is there and I keep my eyes peeled each spoiler season for cards that might be usable by 8rack and also can potentially shift the smallpox exchange more in our favor.
Setting up delirium to turn whispers of emrakul into a hymn to tourach is intriguing. Whether or not it is reliable enough to be worth the effort to setup a hymn is questionable, but I want to try it. Which brings me to talgardo
When using Whispers of Emrakul, I think it is important to ask yourself how quickly you can potentially set up a full hymn and how likely such a scenario is to occur. Do you need to make any "weaker" plays to achieve a full hymn early?
To me, it looks like the fastest that you can cast a full hymn is T3 and that you need to cast an instant on T1 and a smallpox on T2 to get an artifact/enchantment/creature into the yard. The T1 play of Funeral Charm or Dismember are generally going to be much weaker plays than a T1 Inqusition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize.
So that you're not completely reliant on a T2 smallpox to setup delerium, you could consider running some copies of Collective Brutality to act as additional smallpoxes of sorts. They're both cards that perform relatively powerful T2 plays by assaulting multiple of your opponent's resources while costing you some cards of your own (in this case, potentially letting you enable delirium by the end of T2).
IMO, you should be playing some dual-typed cards so that it is much easier to set off delerium. By far the easiest to slip into the deck is bitterblossom (it is both an enchantment and a tribal card).
Artifact creatures fit the bill of a dual typed card. You should look through those to see if any catch your eye (most recently Lupine Prototype has been mentioned), but I haven't looked through the full list again this evening. Spellskite is always popular.
Enchantment creatures are things, but most probably aren't useful enough to be worth running. Brain Maggot is probably the closest fit but still sort of weak, Thassa, God of the Sea might at least help use improve the quality of our topdecks, but I don't think I'd give up a slot in my deck for that alone. Erebos, God of the Dead and Mogis, God of Slaughter can help either build card advantage or hurt the opponent, but they're expensive at 4cmc and we probably don't want to use them because the effect is weak for their cost considering that we'll almost never turn them into creatures.
The god-weapon cycle are double-typed as enchantment artifacts, but none of them really mesh with the deck beyond the fact that they all would make bitterblossom's fairy tokens better. Bow of Nylea and Whip of Erebos both essentially counteract the life loss of creating the fairies, and bident of thassa would generate a ton of card advantage with bitterblossom fairies swarming. I personally don't think any of these really have a place in our 75, but I figured it was worth mentioning them for verbosity with dual-typed cards and if you ever wanted try to work work the deck into something with a bit of a token swarm side-theme.
While mutavault is a tried and true card, I would consider playing Darksteel Citadel in a deck that is basically a testbed for Whispers of Emrakul. If whispers proves useful, then I would considering bringing some mutavaults back in. Dryad Arbor is also dual typed, but suffers from summoning sickness.
If I were to try to tweak your list a bit, I might try swapping out some of the pieces to make it look like this instead.
3 Lupine Prototype
Sorceries (20)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Raven's Crime
4 Whispers of Emrakul
4 Smallpox
2 Collective Brutality
3 shrieking affliction
3 bitterblossom
Artifacts (3)
3 the rack
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the veil
Lands (24)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 leechridden swamp
6 Swamp
The fastest you can cast a full hymn is still turn 3, but IMO I think that you'll have an easier time setting up Delirum with the addition of these dual typed cards and with collective brutality assisting smallpox in setting up delerium for Whispers. You also don't need to "waste" your T1 by casting an instant instead of TS or IoK. Although if you're going to run all those fetchlands, you should consider trying to see if you can splash some supporting cards from other colors in or perhaps make use other popular lands like Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace.