As an 8rack player with 2 pack rats maindeck. I actually won quite a number of games with rats. Infact.. i actually feel safer knowing rats can single handedly kill an opponent with no answers for it. This comes from someone who plays smallpox initially. IMO pack rats are that alternate win con. When the rack fails or when i see my opponent have no removals/removed their removals. Just play the rat and keep making rats to win.
It is true, an unanswered Pack Rat can win a game. In fact, I have always said, after two-three activations, it's easily one of the best creatures in the entire Modern card pool. However, there are plenty of other creatures that win games by themselves if left unchecked that are so much better than the 2 mana 1/1 you get when you cast Rat. Some of them require chunks of mana to be fed to them on a regular basis, but they let you keep your other cards while doing so.
I'd be curious to know how many 8rack and 8rack w/color splash players use 3 or 4 Ensnaring Bridge in their main board. If I just had to guess, I'd say a majority are going Bridge-less. At least to me its one of the most oppressive cards out there with all the creature based win-con decks out there in the Meta. In most scenarios if I have a Bridge, Lily and a Rack on the board its lights out and GG.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Here are the links to the Brideless and Bridge versions on ManaStack if you want a spoiler view and/or statistical breakdowns.
My preffered option at this particular point in time is the Bridgeless one, because it is very consistent and in general I like what it's doing. My Bridge version, however, is fine tuned to draw, drop a Bridge and make it impossible to kill, while having good matchups against the decks Bridge is bad against (especially after sideboarding). That said, it doesn't do anything proactive, that's why the Asylum Version is what I am testing with right now. I haven't figured it's sideboard completely yet but that will come in time too.
I am happy to answer any and all questions on choices, numbers or generally what the hell is going on in these decks. But that wasn't the point of WarMachine's question. To answer it directly - I am piloting a build without bridges right now. I hope other players share what they are doing as well, so we can get a little bit more data about what's prefered and what isn't.
My current position on Pack Rat: Lets get into some deckbuilding theory. The way I look at 8rack personally is the "core" of the deck is our primary wincon (the 8 racks) and our discard suite (Liliana, Thoughtseize, Wrench Mind etc.) everything else is extreamly debatable and for the sake of discussion I'm going to refer to it as the "remainder". Imo you ideally want the remainder to either have synergy with the core (Asylum Visitor, Ensnaring Bridge) or be good-stuff.(Victim of Night, Mutavault etc.).
I believe that what people dislike about cards like Pack Rat is it's not a part of the core, it's not synergistic with the core and it's not really good-stuff either. Because it doesn't fit into any of those three categories it is kinda awkward in the deck. So why do people use it? Well aside from the obvious reason's explained by reading the card text it just kinda magically fits in certain lists. Ideally I would prefer something synergistic to the core (and I will be testing Lupine Prototype here) but until we find something certainly better it seems to be very decent depending on what cards you have chosen in your remainder. If and only if you have already chosen Mutavault and Asylum Visitor then it's worth considering the Rat. Mutavault as a creature will make your Rats bigger but that alone wasn't enough to convince me. However once Asylum Visitor came out I was sold. Together they can make a lot of rats while allowing you to quickly dig through your library.
On Lupine Prototype - It certainly needs testing but I think people may be underestimating it. I want to address the "drawback" of the card. It's more or less the same drawback as Shrieking Affliction but we still use that don't we? Our deck is already designed to work around the drawback at its core. "With Asylum Visitor out it can't block" - That's true but meh... I'm probably not going to be blocking anyway, I think I'd rather be attacking. "It turns dead removal spells into active ones" this argument is only viable for creature-less decks. I'm running the Rat and Visitor already so I crossed that bridge long ago. The only argument I agree with is it does nothing in the early game, this is where testing needs to be done. I want respond "then don't play it in the early game, hold it in your hand until a bit later and focus on playing other spells first" but idk how viable that response is yet.
Answering Esperino's question, what does a fat creature do for us? It helps us win games faster and I'm hoping that will help us against decks like Tron with crazy endgame wincons. Why this guy over the others? This will be determined by what you have in the remainder. My deck is becoming kinda mana hungry and I believe I will appreciate the cheap mana cost.
i also prefer the bridgeless version, i like how it plays. i found having cards that are either removal or discard to be very effective (deck needs some removal, but if you draw to many then you dont have enough discard to activate the racks). so at first i played a couple of disfigure and smother but the full set of funeral charm and smallpox, with the new set im planing on something like this:
Answering Esperino's question, what does a fat creature do for us? It helps us win games faster and I'm hoping that will help us against decks like Tron with crazy endgame wincons. Why this guy over the others? This will be determined by what you have in the remainder. My deck is becoming kinda mana hungry and I believe I will appreciate the cheap mana cost.
I get that argument, of course it's true - a big creature helps killing the opponent. But I have to respectfully disagree on the implication that it helps against Tron. Even the fattest of fat black dudes (5/5 is I think the biggest reasonably castable one) can stand up to Tron's smallest creatures (Wurmcoil is bouncing around the corners of my mind right now but to be honest I haven't looked at Tron decks recently to make that claim).
Answering Esperino's question, what does a fat creature do for us? It helps us win games faster and I'm hoping that will help us against decks like Tron with crazy endgame wincons. Why this guy over the others? This will be determined by what you have in the remainder. My deck is becoming kinda mana hungry and I believe I will appreciate the cheap mana cost.
I get that argument, of course it's true - a big creature helps killing the opponent. But I have to respectfully disagree on the implication that it helps against Tron. Even the fattest of fat black dudes (5/5 is I think the biggest reasonably castable one) can stand up to Tron's smallest creatures (Wurmcoil is bouncing around the corners of my mind right now but to be honest I haven't looked at Tron decks recently to make that claim).
Oh for sure, I guess I'm just hoping to get in an extra 5 points of damage in before they even cast wurmcoil but we need to test to see how quickly we can start swinging with the Wolf.
Answering Esperino's question, what does a fat creature do for us? It helps us win games faster and I'm hoping that will help us against decks like Tron with crazy endgame wincons. Why this guy over the others? This will be determined by what you have in the remainder. My deck is becoming kinda mana hungry and I believe I will appreciate the cheap mana cost.
I get that argument, of course it's true - a big creature helps killing the opponent. But I have to respectfully disagree on the implication that it helps against Tron. Even the fattest of fat black dudes (5/5 is I think the biggest reasonably castable one) can stand up to Tron's smallest creatures (Wurmcoil is bouncing around the corners of my mind right now but to be honest I haven't looked at Tron decks recently to make that claim).
Oh for sure, I guess I'm just hoping to get in an extra 5 points of damage in before they even cast wurmcoil but we need to test to see how quickly we can start swinging with the Wolf.
I can't imagine any situations vs Tron where you are swinging with prototype turn 3, even if they mull. If one of you mulled way down or you triple crimed turn 3 maybe, but dropping prototype takes your whole turn 3 and wrench mind is weak vs tron.a turn 2 pack rat demands answers or it can take over the game, even turn 2 visitor poses an immediate 3 power threat. Not so with prototype in most cases.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." —Jaya Ballard, task mage
Vs tron my only game plan IS Pack Rat. Nab Pyroclasm/Dig for a land (hope they don't have natural tron) t1 discard, t2-5 rat for the kill. The only way I've killed them is creature beats or grind via Bridge but don't think that's ever got a win.
So, in all of my decks I will have a plan B (at least, sometimes C). Pack Rat and other Creatures is a plan B but they also enhance our plan A of killing them dead with damage from their low hand. Nyx, AV, this prototype wolf that's a decent static Nyx. I understand people that want to stick with one plan and that's fine; I just enjoy putting what 1-3 slots to a potential blowout plan B. That's how I approach Rat, like any other alt wincon you don't want to see it until you need it. Unless it's plan A for a certain match up, and yes, that is a terrible thing but it's RG Tron what else can we do? Dedicate 8+ slots to it in the SB and still just make it a 50/50 MU?
Do you have to swing by T3 to get 5 damage in? I feel like we can delay that a bit. Idk maybe I'm a bit biased playing a white splash these days with Path and Anguished unmaking.
The white splash definitely sounds good vs tron, but it's a very consistent and redundant deck, without LD I would never assume they get tron later than t4. Sometimes it takes longer but planning on that is foolish. Karn, Ugin, and Wormcoil all invalidate prototype, but with things like path and unmaking you are already in better shape than a mono-black build. I'm sure it could do some work in the right scenario but tron is a deck that gets fat rips, and pretty much all of them kill him.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." —Jaya Ballard, task mage
My current position on Pack Rat: Lets get into some deckbuilding theory. The way I look at 8rack personally is the "core" of the deck is our primary wincon (the 8 racks) and our discard suite (Liliana, Thoughtseize, Wrench Mind etc.) everything else is extreamly debatable and for the sake of discussion I'm going to refer to it as the "remainder". Imo you ideally want the remainder to either have synergy with the core (Asylum Visitor, Ensnaring Bridge) or be good-stuff.(Victim of Night, Mutavault etc.).
I believe that what people dislike about cards like Pack Rat is it's not a part of the core, it's not synergistic with the core and it's not really good-stuff either. Because it doesn't fit into any of those three categories it is kinda awkward in the deck. So why do people use it? Well aside from the obvious reason's explained by reading the card text it just kinda magically fits in certain lists. Ideally I would prefer something synergistic to the core (and I will be testing Lupine Prototype here) but until we find something certainly better it seems to be very decent depending on what cards you have chosen in your remainder. If and only if you have already chosen Mutavault and Asylum Visitor then it's worth considering the Rat. Mutavault as a creature will make your Rats bigger but that alone wasn't enough to convince me. However once Asylum Visitor came out I was sold. Together they can make a lot of rats while allowing you to quickly dig through your library.
On Lupine Prototype - It certainly needs testing but I think people may be underestimating it. I want to address the "drawback" of the card. It's more or less the same drawback as Shrieking Affliction but we still use that don't we? Our deck is already designed to work around the drawback at its core. "With Asylum Visitor out it can't block" - That's true but meh... I'm probably not going to be blocking anyway, I think I'd rather be attacking. "It turns dead removal spells into active ones" this argument is only viable for creature-less decks. I'm running the Rat and Visitor already so I crossed that bridge long ago. The only argument I agree with is it does nothing in the early game, this is where testing needs to be done. I want respond "then don't play it in the early game, hold it in your hand until a bit later and focus on playing other spells first" but idk how viable that response is yet.
Answering Esperino's question, what does a fat creature do for us? It helps us win games faster and I'm hoping that will help us against decks like Tron with crazy endgame wincons. Why this guy over the others? This will be determined by what you have in the remainder. My deck is becoming kinda mana hungry and I believe I will appreciate the cheap mana cost.
Replying to the bolded bit, I don't believe that's true.
Let's see if I can voice this right. Pack Rat does synergize with 8rack. While the discard gameplan may not benefit from the rats, the rats benefit from the discard gameplan. As we've already established, an unanswered pack rat can be a game winning threat. Almost comparable to watching a planeswalker inexorably tick up when you have no way to stop it. IMO, 8rack is probably the best deck in modern for placing an opponent in a position where they are unable to answer the rat. Our discard suite both provides intel and limits the opponent's options which can free up an opportunity for rats to just get out of control.
For example, if our T1 Inquisition of Kozilek reveals that they have no removal in hand or only a single piece of removal, we can pave the way to go all-in on rats and play out the game like we're some weird twist on merfolk except every card in our deck is a rat lord instead of lord of atlantis.
The same is true if our discard engines force them into topdeck mode. With no cards in hand and their options severely limited, our opponent is likely only able to helplessly watch as we drop a rat and start the doomsday clock.
There is this remarkably interesting section of the Primer (who even reads that anymore, right?) that's called "Pack Rat clock":
T1 land, discard
T2 land, rat
T3 land, make a rat (two rats on board), swing for 2 (2 damage total)
T4 make a rat (three rats on board), swing for 6 (8 damage total)
T5 make a rat (four rats on board), swing for 12 (20 damage total)
T6 make a rat (five rats on board), swing for 20 (40 damage total)
T1 land, discard
T2 land, rat
T3 land, make a rat (two rats on board), swing for 2 (2 damage total)
T4 mutavault, make a rat (three rats on board), animate Mutavault, swing for 8 (10 damage total)
T5 make a rat (four rats on board), animate Mutavault, swing for 15 (25 damage total)
T6 make a rat (five rats on board), animate Mutavault, swing for 24 (49 damage total)
In it we see that after you play a Pack Rat, presumably unanswered (although how you stop the opponent from topdecking removal at any point or how you rely on them having only one removal spell their hand is particularly interesting to me), it takes 3 whole turns of activating and swinging with rats to do 20 damage (+1 turn for playing the first Rat). That's 4 turns of doing absolutely nothing else. During those turns you do absolutely nothing else, because you are consistently occupying your mana and discarding everything you draw. During this time, the opponent must NOT do one of the following:
draw removal
play any creature
do anything that can kill you
(because Modern lacks uninteractive combos)
disrupt you
make you discard
have more than one removal spell in their opening hand
play effects that prevent damage
probably something else I can't think of right now
I definitely understand what people that like Pack Rat are saying and I've went a little overboard on demonstrating the bad scenarios, but they do exist. There are plenty of big creatures, finishers or what have you, that don't require anywhere near this significant time and resource investment to do 20 damage. Four swings with a Gurmag Angler do exactly as much, except you play him once and continue pressuring from another angle.
Rat does get significantly better in the late game where both players are in topdecking and they have to blindly draw removal, that's very true. But while you are growing a rat, the enemy has time to develop his own gameplan and I'm not convinced an army of rats beats something like a combo, a huge eldrazi or planeswalker, an unblockable infecter or anything else of that caliber. I think that by going all in on rats you are throwing away the game to a 50/50 gamble, almost like saying "do what you're going to do, you have 4 turns or you lose". If I were playing, I wouldn't give my opponent 3 to 4 free turns. The whole point of 8Rack is exactly the opposite.
Just want to further echo the General re Rat. It actually DOES synergize with our game plan it. It simply attacks to deal it damage instead of triggering in the upkeep. Rat profits from all of the things we are planning on doing anyways such as:
-drawing the game out
-creating hellbent states
-having dead topdecks
The only time it's smallest bit awkward is with bridge but even then you can almost always choose one or the other on the fly. Bridge becomes another Rat if you draw it and don't need it. Rat becomes a layer of protection for you behind bridge if it happens the other way around. There's really no downside regarding rat and bridge; Visitor is a much bigger nonbo with Bridge.
There is this remarkably interesting section of the Primer (who even reads that anymore, right?) that's called "Pack Rat clock":
T1 land, discard
T2 land, rat
T3 land, make a rat (two rats on board), swing for 2 (2 damage total)
T4 make a rat (three rats on board), swing for 6 (8 damage total)
T5 make a rat (four rats on board), swing for 12 (20 damage total)
T6 make a rat (five rats on board), swing for 20 (40 damage total)
T1 land, discard
T2 land, rat
T3 land, make a rat (two rats on board), swing for 2 (2 damage total)
T4 mutavault, make a rat (three rats on board), animate Mutavault, swing for 8 (10 damage total)
T5 make a rat (four rats on board), animate Mutavault, swing for 15 (25 damage total)
T6 make a rat (five rats on board), animate Mutavault, swing for 24 (49 damage total)
In it we see that after you play a Pack Rat, presumably unanswered (although how you stop the opponent from topdecking removal at any point or how you rely on them having only one removal spell their hand is particularly interesting to me), it takes 3 whole turns of activating and swinging with rats to do 20 damage (+1 turn for playing the first Rat). That's 4 turns of doing absolutely nothing else. During those turns you do absolutely nothing else, because you are consistently occupying your mana and discarding everything you draw. During this time, the opponent must NOT do one of the following:
draw removal
play any creature
do anything that can kill you
(because Modern lacks uninteractive combos)
disrupt you
make you discard
have more than one removal spell in their opening hand
play effects that prevent damage
probably something else I can't think of right now
I definitely understand what people that like Pack Rat are saying and I've went a little overboard on demonstrating the bad scenarios, but they do exist. There are plenty of big creatures, finishers or what have you, that don't require anywhere near this significant time and resource investment to do 20 damage. Four swings with a Gurmag Angler do exactly as much, except you play him once and continue pressuring from another angle.
Rat does get significantly better in the late game where both players are in topdecking and they have to blindly draw removal, that's very true. But while you are growing a rat, the enemy has time to develop his own gameplan and I'm not convinced an army of rats beats something like a combo, a huge eldrazi or planeswalker, an unblockable infecter or anything else of that caliber. I think that by going all in on rats you are throwing away the game to a 50/50 gamble, almost like saying "do what you're going to do, you have 4 turns or you lose". If I were playing, I wouldn't give my opponent 3 to 4 free turns. The whole point of 8Rack is exactly the opposite.
Woah this is very misleading. THose clocks are probably bad to have in the primer if these are the conclusions folks will draw. The games where I want to play Rat and Turn 2 are very rare. If you used the card more Nick you woudl know about real world clocks like this:
T1-T4: do normal 8Racky things
T5: drop rat make rat
T6: swing with 2 rats and 2 mutavaults for 12 with mana to spare
I'm probably in the minority, but I'm with you Esperino. There are too many fast decks out there that are going to run through, over, around or just beat your face while you are trying to set up multiple Rats. Turn 2 I want to be playing Wrench Mind, removal or a combination of 2 1cmc discard or rack. Turn 3 I want to be dropping a Bridge or Lily or some combination of discard/rack. Rats to me seems like a direct replacement for Bridge that lets you do damage. Problem is the opponent may be sticking a BIG creature that isn't going to care about a 1/1 or a couple of 2/2 rats early game. A rat or two isn't going to stop Blinkmoth Nexus, a Cranial Plating on Ornithopter or Vault Skirge a horde of Elves, Goblins or Merfolk, multiple creatures from Living End or Dredge or a whole host of creatures out there. To me its almost a win-more card. If you have the game in control and pumping out rats you were going to win anyway. I think its personal preference. I do think it speeds up the clock in a situation where you may win a turn or 2 earlier than without it. There is something to be said about that. Giving your opponent chances to top deck answers is not good. But with that said, I just feel there are less "answers" to a Bridge than to a Rat.
Good luck everyone, long live 8rack!!!
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Woah this is very misleading. THose clocks are probably bad to have in the primer if these are the conclusions folks will draw. The games where I want to play Rat and Turn 2 are very rare. If you used the card more Nick you woudl know about real world clocks like this:
T1-T4: do normal 8Racky things
T5: drop rat make rat
T6: swing with 2 rats and 2 mutavaults for 12 with mana to spare
Hey now, this is fairly misleading too. I have watched almost all of your videos and I continue to do so. That's not how it turns out most often, is it now? The line of play you suggest requires 5 mana on turn 5 at the very least and I constantly watch you stop playing lands when you get to ~3 and pitch the rest to Raven's Crime, Lily or Rat. This doesn't make it possible to have 5 lands by turn 5, which is unlikely in the first place, considering control decks play upwards of 23 lands AND draw and sometimes even they struggle to hit their lands drops consistently. And 8Rack has no card draw other than Visitor, who's effect isn't live in your scenario.
I said I can see when Rat is strong (although other things are too), sure, but this Turn 6 12 damage setup is more than improbable.
Woah this is very misleading. THose clocks are probably bad to have in the primer if these are the conclusions folks will draw. The games where I want to play Rat and Turn 2 are very rare. If you used the card more Nick you woudl know about real world clocks like this:
T1-T4: do normal 8Racky things
T5: drop rat make rat
T6: swing with 2 rats and 2 mutavaults for 12 with mana to spare
Hey now, this is fairly misleading too. I have watched almost all of your videos and I continue to do so. That's not how it turns out most often, is it now? The line of play you suggest requires 5 mana on turn 5 at the very least and I constantly watch you stop playing lands when you get to ~3 and pitch the rest to Raven's Crime, Lily or Rat. This doesn't make it possible to have 5 lands by turn 5, which is unlikely in the first place, considering control decks play upwards of 23 lands AND draw and sometimes even they struggle to hit their lands drops consistently. And 8Rack has no card draw other than Visitor, who's effect isn't live in your scenario.
I said I can see when Rat is strong (although other things are too), sure, but this Turn 6 12 damage setup is more than improbable.
It's meant to demonstrate the explosiveness of rats which has been seen on my games enough times by now to be a relied upon as consistent.
It is true, an unanswered Pack Rat can win a game. In fact, I have always said, after two-three activations, it's easily one of the best creatures in the entire Modern card pool. However, there are plenty of other creatures that win games by themselves if left unchecked that are so much better than the 2 mana 1/1 you get when you cast Rat. Some of them require chunks of mana to be fed to them on a regular basis, but they let you keep your other cards while doing so.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
4x Shrieking Affliction
4x Spellskite
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Wrench Mind
2x Raven's Crime
2x Mind Shatter
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Duress
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
11x Swamp
4x Darkslick Shores
1x Dakmor Salvage
2x Academy Ruins
2 Waste Not
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
3 Night of Souls' Betrayal
4 Grafdigger's Cage
Mainboard
4x Mutavault
12x Swamp
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
2x Mind Shatter
2x Raven's Crime
4x Wrench Mind
3x Asylum Visitor
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Disfigure
3x Dismember
1x Murderous Cut
4x Shrieking Affliction
4x The Rack
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Pithing Needle
3 Spellskite
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Waste Not
Here are the links to the Brideless and Bridge versions on ManaStack if you want a spoiler view and/or statistical breakdowns.
My preffered option at this particular point in time is the Bridgeless one, because it is very consistent and in general I like what it's doing. My Bridge version, however, is fine tuned to draw, drop a Bridge and make it impossible to kill, while having good matchups against the decks Bridge is bad against (especially after sideboarding). That said, it doesn't do anything proactive, that's why the Asylum Version is what I am testing with right now. I haven't figured it's sideboard completely yet but that will come in time too.
I am happy to answer any and all questions on choices, numbers or generally what the hell is going on in these decks. But that wasn't the point of WarMachine's question. To answer it directly - I am piloting a build without bridges right now. I hope other players share what they are doing as well, so we can get a little bit more data about what's prefered and what isn't.
I believe that what people dislike about cards like Pack Rat is it's not a part of the core, it's not synergistic with the core and it's not really good-stuff either. Because it doesn't fit into any of those three categories it is kinda awkward in the deck. So why do people use it? Well aside from the obvious reason's explained by reading the card text it just kinda magically fits in certain lists. Ideally I would prefer something synergistic to the core (and I will be testing Lupine Prototype here) but until we find something certainly better it seems to be very decent depending on what cards you have chosen in your remainder. If and only if you have already chosen Mutavault and Asylum Visitor then it's worth considering the Rat. Mutavault as a creature will make your Rats bigger but that alone wasn't enough to convince me. However once Asylum Visitor came out I was sold. Together they can make a lot of rats while allowing you to quickly dig through your library.
On Lupine Prototype - It certainly needs testing but I think people may be underestimating it. I want to address the "drawback" of the card. It's more or less the same drawback as Shrieking Affliction but we still use that don't we? Our deck is already designed to work around the drawback at its core. "With Asylum Visitor out it can't block" - That's true but meh... I'm probably not going to be blocking anyway, I think I'd rather be attacking. "It turns dead removal spells into active ones" this argument is only viable for creature-less decks. I'm running the Rat and Visitor already so I crossed that bridge long ago. The only argument I agree with is it does nothing in the early game, this is where testing needs to be done. I want respond "then don't play it in the early game, hold it in your hand until a bit later and focus on playing other spells first" but idk how viable that response is yet.
Answering Esperino's question, what does a fat creature do for us? It helps us win games faster and I'm hoping that will help us against decks like Tron with crazy endgame wincons. Why this guy over the others? This will be determined by what you have in the remainder. My deck is becoming kinda mana hungry and I believe I will appreciate the cheap mana cost.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 funeral charm
4 collective brutality
4 smallpox
2 wrench mind
4 liliana of the veil
4 the rack
4 shrieking affliction
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
18 swamp
1 thoughtseize
2 wrench mind
4 lupine prototype
3 flaying tendrils
3 leyline of the void
2 smother
there are playsets of the new cards to see them a lot at first, i can see reducing or cutting them in the future
said that i also like your take on the bridge list (spellskite is very strong in any deck relying on ensnaring bridge)
I get that argument, of course it's true - a big creature helps killing the opponent. But I have to respectfully disagree on the implication that it helps against Tron. Even the fattest of fat black dudes (5/5 is I think the biggest reasonably castable one) can stand up to Tron's smallest creatures (Wurmcoil is bouncing around the corners of my mind right now but to be honest I haven't looked at Tron decks recently to make that claim).
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I can't imagine any situations vs Tron where you are swinging with prototype turn 3, even if they mull. If one of you mulled way down or you triple crimed turn 3 maybe, but dropping prototype takes your whole turn 3 and wrench mind is weak vs tron.a turn 2 pack rat demands answers or it can take over the game, even turn 2 visitor poses an immediate 3 power threat. Not so with prototype in most cases.
So, in all of my decks I will have a plan B (at least, sometimes C). Pack Rat and other Creatures is a plan B but they also enhance our plan A of killing them dead with damage from their low hand. Nyx, AV, this prototype wolf that's a decent static Nyx. I understand people that want to stick with one plan and that's fine; I just enjoy putting what 1-3 slots to a potential blowout plan B. That's how I approach Rat, like any other alt wincon you don't want to see it until you need it. Unless it's plan A for a certain match up, and yes, that is a terrible thing but it's RG Tron what else can we do? Dedicate 8+ slots to it in the SB and still just make it a 50/50 MU?
Cube
Terricube
Modern
8Rack
Burn
Legacy
Oops, All Spells!
Pox
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Replying to the bolded bit, I don't believe that's true.
Let's see if I can voice this right. Pack Rat does synergize with 8rack. While the discard gameplan may not benefit from the rats, the rats benefit from the discard gameplan. As we've already established, an unanswered pack rat can be a game winning threat. Almost comparable to watching a planeswalker inexorably tick up when you have no way to stop it. IMO, 8rack is probably the best deck in modern for placing an opponent in a position where they are unable to answer the rat. Our discard suite both provides intel and limits the opponent's options which can free up an opportunity for rats to just get out of control.
For example, if our T1 Inquisition of Kozilek reveals that they have no removal in hand or only a single piece of removal, we can pave the way to go all-in on rats and play out the game like we're some weird twist on merfolk except every card in our deck is a rat lord instead of lord of atlantis.
The same is true if our discard engines force them into topdeck mode. With no cards in hand and their options severely limited, our opponent is likely only able to helplessly watch as we drop a rat and start the doomsday clock.
T1 land, discard
T2 land, rat
T3 land, make a rat (two rats on board), swing for 2 (2 damage total)
T4 make a rat (three rats on board), swing for 6 (8 damage total)
T5 make a rat (four rats on board), swing for 12 (20 damage total)
T6 make a rat (five rats on board), swing for 20 (40 damage total)
T1 land, discard
T2 land, rat
T3 land, make a rat (two rats on board), swing for 2 (2 damage total)
T4 mutavault, make a rat (three rats on board), animate Mutavault, swing for 8 (10 damage total)
T5 make a rat (four rats on board), animate Mutavault, swing for 15 (25 damage total)
T6 make a rat (five rats on board), animate Mutavault, swing for 24 (49 damage total)
In it we see that after you play a Pack Rat, presumably unanswered (although how you stop the opponent from topdecking removal at any point or how you rely on them having only one removal spell their hand is particularly interesting to me), it takes 3 whole turns of activating and swinging with rats to do 20 damage (+1 turn for playing the first Rat). That's 4 turns of doing absolutely nothing else. During those turns you do absolutely nothing else, because you are consistently occupying your mana and discarding everything you draw. During this time, the opponent must NOT do one of the following:
I definitely understand what people that like Pack Rat are saying and I've went a little overboard on demonstrating the bad scenarios, but they do exist. There are plenty of big creatures, finishers or what have you, that don't require anywhere near this significant time and resource investment to do 20 damage. Four swings with a Gurmag Angler do exactly as much, except you play him once and continue pressuring from another angle.
Rat does get significantly better in the late game where both players are in topdecking and they have to blindly draw removal, that's very true. But while you are growing a rat, the enemy has time to develop his own gameplan and I'm not convinced an army of rats beats something like a combo, a huge eldrazi or planeswalker, an unblockable infecter or anything else of that caliber. I think that by going all in on rats you are throwing away the game to a 50/50 gamble, almost like saying "do what you're going to do, you have 4 turns or you lose". If I were playing, I wouldn't give my opponent 3 to 4 free turns. The whole point of 8Rack is exactly the opposite.
-drawing the game out
-creating hellbent states
-having dead topdecks
The only time it's smallest bit awkward is with bridge but even then you can almost always choose one or the other on the fly. Bridge becomes another Rat if you draw it and don't need it. Rat becomes a layer of protection for you behind bridge if it happens the other way around. There's really no downside regarding rat and bridge; Visitor is a much bigger nonbo with Bridge.
Woah this is very misleading. THose clocks are probably bad to have in the primer if these are the conclusions folks will draw. The games where I want to play Rat and Turn 2 are very rare. If you used the card more Nick you woudl know about real world clocks like this:
T1-T4: do normal 8Racky things
T5: drop rat make rat
T6: swing with 2 rats and 2 mutavaults for 12 with mana to spare
Good luck everyone, long live 8rack!!!
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Hey now, this is fairly misleading too. I have watched almost all of your videos and I continue to do so. That's not how it turns out most often, is it now? The line of play you suggest requires 5 mana on turn 5 at the very least and I constantly watch you stop playing lands when you get to ~3 and pitch the rest to Raven's Crime, Lily or Rat. This doesn't make it possible to have 5 lands by turn 5, which is unlikely in the first place, considering control decks play upwards of 23 lands AND draw and sometimes even they struggle to hit their lands drops consistently. And 8Rack has no card draw other than Visitor, who's effect isn't live in your scenario.
I said I can see when Rat is strong (although other things are too), sure, but this Turn 6 12 damage setup is more than improbable.
It's meant to demonstrate the explosiveness of rats which has been seen on my games enough times by now to be a relied upon as consistent.