If she made it an non-issue then he wouldn't of had the issue in the first place, but he did...so she doesn't
You don't think a card that consistently empties your hand helps you empty your hand? Amazing. I can't believe you would post this.
Then why did he have the problem when he tested it in a list running 4x LoTV?
We have a lot of cards that empty our hand, Pack Rat, Raven's Crime, Lili, Smallpox if are are running them. Most of our targeted discard spells can target our own hand if need be. Getting hellbent isn't an issue. Having colorless mana could be. I could maybe see this as a singleton...which is actually pretty impressive. Our deck rarely gets anything so even a singleton is kind of a big deal.
If she made it an non-issue then he wouldn't of had the issue in the first place, but he did...so she doesn't
You don't think a card that consistently empties your hand helps you empty your hand? Amazing. I can't believe you would post this.
Then why did he have the problem when he tested it in a list running 4x LoTV?
We have a lot of cards that empty our hand, Pack Rat, Raven's Crime, Lili, Smallpox if are are running them. Most of our targeted discard spells can target our own hand if need be. Getting hellbent isn't an issue. Having colorless mana could be. I could maybe see this as a singleton...which is actually pretty impressive. Our deck rarely gets anything so even a singleton is kind of a big deal.
I understand that all in theory. Are you guys calling Funkrusher a Liar? Because unless I'm misunderstanding the situation he actually tested it out and found that it was an issue at times. I'm not saying don't run it (I'm still going to) but unless he was lying it sounds like it can be (albeit margonally) an issue. Even while running many of the aformentioned cards.
There are going to be times where you just can't get rid of that last card. Its not a dealbreaker but I could definitely see it being an issue. Even when running 4x LotV she isn't guatanteed to be in play to get rid of that Victim of Night.
As a land, it has some leniency to not make use of its extra utility all of the time because it still pulls double duty as a mana source. Some games we find ourselves in situations where it isn't beneficial to turn mutavault or blinkmoth nexus into a creature. That doesn't make those lands bad just because we can't always make use of their utility effect.
The same is true for sea gate wreckage. Why might not always be able to draw cards off of it, but we're hellbent pretty often and we'll occasionally be able to draw cards that we otherwise wouldn't have been able to draw. The big catch is that you need to be able to support colorless mana to use the ability. If think it is doable with either filters or painlands depending on your preference, but it does make our manabase less resilient to the likes of blood moon (although I suppose blood moon wouldn't matter much if our splash is red).
Also, like I mentioned a few pages back, there is Mikokoro, Center of the sea if you want to experiment with something that trades the colorless requirement, the hellbent restriction, and reduces the cost by 1 mana for legendary status and the opponent drawing a card as well. Though I suppose in practice that replaces the personal hellbent restriction with a soft restriction of your opponent being hellbent.
Again, I tried searching the thread for discussions about Mikokoro and couldn't find any. I also could only find dead links for the old thread and couldn't see if we had discussed it there before or not. Barring the opponent drawing an instant, any of our discard engines should be able to force the opponent to discard their card before they can gain any benefit from it.
If she made it an non-issue then he wouldn't of had the issue in the first place, but he did...so she doesn't
You don't think a card that consistently empties your hand helps you empty your hand? Amazing. I can't believe you would post this.
Then why did he have the problem when he tested it in a list running 4x LoTV?
We have a lot of cards that empty our hand, Pack Rat, Raven's Crime, Lili, Smallpox if are are running them. Most of our targeted discard spells can target our own hand if need be. Getting hellbent isn't an issue. Having colorless mana could be. I could maybe see this as a singleton...which is actually pretty impressive. Our deck rarely gets anything so even a singleton is kind of a big deal.
I understand that all in theory. Are you guys calling Funkrusher a Liar? Because unless I'm misunderstanding the situation he actually tested it out and found that it was an issue at times. I'm not saying don't run it (I'm still going to) but unless he was lying it sounds like it can be (albeit margonally) an issue. Even while running many of the aformentioned cards.
There are going to be times where you just can't get rid of that last card. Its not a dealbreaker but I could definitely see it being an issue. Even when running 4x LotV she isn't guaranteed to be in play to get rid of that Victim of Night.
Lists vary. I have no idea what type of deck he was running, but if the deck is constructed properly, being hellbent cannot be your bottleneck. Having colorless is the real catch, thats why I see this as a possible mutavault #5.
RE: Mikokoro- It probably has nearly as much merit as Seagate. Again, it would be a 1-off, possibly 3-1 split wth muta. The idea here is you don't use it unless it makes sense to do so ie you are going to Lili the card away anyways. The opponent being hellbent as a soft requirement gives it some flexibility as well. Maybe you are flailing for an answer and you don't care if he has cards, these situations happen.
I've been seriously considering finding room for Swarmyard after seeing how well it performs in the 8rack budget version with Rats. Swarmyard + 2 swamps makes pack rat a VERY serious turn 3 threat. Mutavault support Rat as well and swings on its own though so it's a real tough choice for me. I'm doing some test videos on youtube stay tuned.
I've been seriously considering finding room for Swarmyard after seeing how well it performs in the 8rack budget version with Rats. Swarmyard + 2 swamps makes pack rat a VERY serious turn 3 threat. Mutavault support Rat as well and swings on its own though so it's a real tough choice for me. I'm doing some test videos on youtube stay tuned.
I don't run rats but I'd like to point out that Swarmyard could regenerate Mutavault as well I believe. Another little added bonus. Good luck.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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Hey Folks, I'm hoping some of you might be able to help out an 8-Rack NOOB who just built an 8-rack deck but hasn't played it yet. I'm about to take this baby out and start playing and just wanted to clarify a few things so I know what the hell I'm doing when I cast these cards. For those who want to know the deck list, I built the same deck the Professor from Tolarian Community College built in one of his deck-tech videos on YouTube. You can find the deck list here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mono-black-8-rack-modern-discard/
OK, on to the questions:
1. If I have two (or more) Racks and/or two (or more) Shrieking Afflictions on the battlefield at the same time, and my opponent has less than three cards in their hand, does each card deal damage? So, for example, if I have two Racks in play, will each one deal damage (so I'm dealing double the damage)? Or can only one Artifact or Enchantment trigger at a time even if I have two (or more) of them on the battlefield?
2. If I want to +1 Liliana and have no cards in my hand, can I still +1 her to make my opponent discard a card?
3. I currently have Smallpox in my deck, so this is a similar questions as #2. If I have no cards in hand and/or no creatures to sacrifice, can I still play the card and target my opponent? And when Smallpox says "each player loses 1 life, discards a card, sacrifices a creature, then sacrifices a land," does that mean you only sacrifice a creature and a land that are in play or does that include cards in your hand? Same goes for the opponent. Are creatures/lands in their hand safe?
4. And just so I'm understanding The Rack correctly, when it says "The Rack deals opponent 1 damage for each card in his or her hand fewer than three," does that mean if they have 2 cards in hand they are dealt 1 damage or is it 2 damage? Or if they have zero or 1 card in hand, what is the damage dealt by The Rack? I find the language on the card a bit confusing.
I'm sure these are fairly basic MTG questions but I am pretty new to the game and this deck clearly takes some skill to play properly, so I really appreciate the help! Thank you.
Each rack/affliction triggers separately, you can absolutely +1 Liliana and Smallpox without cards in hand, in fact that's when they shine, and the rack deals damage as follows: 0 cards = 3 damage, 1 card = 2 damage, 2 cards = 1 damage, 3 cards = 0 damage.
Also don't forget to fix your list. Inquisition is the best card in your deck and you only have 3 of them. You also seem to have missclicked during deckbuilding and somehow wound up with a Pack Rat in there, I'm sure that was meant to be a real card.
Jokes aside (or are they?) you can't play a Smallpox deck with only 20 lands, you will lose to yourself 90% of the time.
Hi im a noob too, but think i can answer your questions
1. yes each card does activate on its own. You need to differ between "deal damage" and "looses life". With "deal damage" you can also decide to deal damage to planeswalkers instead of the player.
2. yes you can always +1 liliana, even if you and your opponent has no cards in hand.
3. yes you can always smallpox. "Sacrifice" only works for cards that are on the battlefield, so cards in your hand are safe from "sacrifice".
4. if they have 2 cards -> 1 damage, if they have 1 card -> 2 damage, if they have 0 cards -> 3 damage. It also works before they draw a card (you need to watch out for that, and do the damage before they draw a card in the draw-phase)
Each rack/affliction triggers separately, you can absolutely +1 Liliana and Smallpox without cards in hand, in fact that's when they shine, and the rack deals damage as follows: 0 cards = 3 damage, 1 card = 2 damage, 2 cards = 1 damage, 3 cards = 0 damage.
Also don't forget to fix your list. Inquisition is the best card in your deck and you only have 3 of them. You also seem to have missclicked during deckbuilding and somehow wound up with a Pack Rat in there, I'm sure that was meant to be a real card.
Jokes aside (or are they?) you can't play a Smallpox deck with only 20 lands, you will lose to yourself 90% of the time.
Thanks! So you're anti Pack Rat? I think I've seen that discussed in this thread but I've only skimmed through it at this point. What do you run instead of Pack Rat? Also, I was wondering about the land count, but when I play test this deck it seems I get enough lands most of the time. But I'll take a look at that. Any suggestions on what to swap out if I add a couple more lands?
Just cut the Pack Rats for 3 more lands and you'll be... in a decent shape. Anything except Thoughtseize is ok to cut for the second Inquisition of Kozilek. Or just add 2 lands and the Inquisition, that's actually better. Smallpox decks usually love to be in the 23-24 land range but 22 is still OK.
i think its more of a "smallpox"-thing that esperino is against pack-rat in your deck i think.
1. pack-rat needs 3 mana to make a rat-token.
2. pack-rat works best together with mutavault (land).
3. pack-rat is a creature, so you cant play smallpox after you cast pack-rat because you would need to sacrifice it.
--> pack-rat works best in a deck without smallpox because you sacrifice a land to smallpox which may result that you cant make a rat-token soon enough or that you need to sacrifice a mutavault which weakens the combo with pack-rat.
Yup, I get it now. This is all very helpful info. And I've been reading through the thread so I saw Esperino's case against Pack Rat. I'm going to start with Pack Rat in the deck but am totally open to trying different approaches. Sounds like fun.
Good attitude CongoBill. Give it a go, you'll come to your own conclusions. But I would say funkrusher is also correct. Higher mana base needed for Smallpox and need to also get to 3 for top of curve for Pack Rat Activated, Lili and Bridge. So you might find your mana a little lacking.
I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet, but there was a deck running 2 or 3 Pack Rats in this very Pro Tour, although for the life of me I can't remember where to look. Somebody mentioned it in the broadcast when a featured match was in "shuffle shuffle shuffle" mode between games and they had a look-in on another match. It might have been Friday somewhere around round 3 of Constructed but don't quote me on that.
So, it's not like I'm not open to somebody proving me wrong, but playing a 2 mana vanilla 1/1 that requires you to invest 3 mana and discard and actual card from your deck to make... yup, a bear... doesn't make too much sense to me. After 2 turns, 5 mana, a 1/1 that somehow survived a Modern board state and card disadvantaging yourself, you wind up with two bears. Vanilla 2/2 creatures. After that, the stats work out OK, if you assume you want a card you have put in your deck for some strategy purposes to become a vanilla Centaur, with the added bonuss of growing your other creatures. That's actually worth a card and 3 mana, again, assuming you don't need your cards to do other things, which you really do. And after that, it probably becomes one of the best creatures ever printed, except anytime they kill even one Pack Rat you are back to the previous state. Vanilla creatures just aren't that good in Modern, regardless of their stats (one obvious exception to this). In all honesty, guys, tell me of a reasonably competitive deck that plays non-Tarmogoyf creatures without other text on them. And more importantly, why do you want to be doing that?
Keep in mind that Pack Rats hurt Nick as a child so you probably aren't going to get an unbiased opinion about them from him hehe. Seriously though to respond to your points about Pack Rats down sides - yes they are all true. Pack Rat requires support and care to realize its potential. The thing is, the resources it requires we have to spare anyways in our normal game. Extra mana? Yep, we either use all our mana or it sits empty. Defense for a 1/1? Yep, we have clear vision of their hand or we just empty it anyway to be sure. Extra turns to make it inevitable? Yep, in fact this card gives us the best inevitability possible in mono black. No we aren't more inevitable than Tron, but yes we are just as inevitable as say Junk. That is nothing to gloss over.
Rat was good, but it bothered me behind a bridge. I've gone back to Bitterblossom and Ghost Quarter main and a couple Tombstalker in the side for when I have a reason to pull bridge and want that bigger clock.
BTW guys, Painter's Servant works pretty well for us against Eldrazi. It turns off Temple and Eye and Even Ancient Stirrings! I wanted to mention something - Eldrazi is obsoleting Tron currently. This means that our worst matchup is being phased out in favor of this Eldrazi thing. Now Eldrazi is good and in no way to be considered a super easy match, but it's infinitely better than our Tron match was.
Certainly an interesting and creative tech choice, I like it a lot. Personally if I was going after their lands I'd Spreading Seas them... or, you know, whatever the black card for that is (has been brought up before). I still think I'll wait for the meta to adjust and police itself at least a little bit but I imagine Affinity and Infect will be more problematic, in that order, so I'm dusting off my set of Disfigures for sideboarding purposes. Anyway, I digress. Painter's Servant seems a very cool way to tackle the Eldrazi problem.
There are going to be times where you just can't get rid of that last card. Its not a dealbreaker but I could definitely see it being an issue. Even when running 4x LotV she isn't guatanteed to be in play to get rid of that Victim of Night.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
The same is true for sea gate wreckage. Why might not always be able to draw cards off of it, but we're hellbent pretty often and we'll occasionally be able to draw cards that we otherwise wouldn't have been able to draw. The big catch is that you need to be able to support colorless mana to use the ability. If think it is doable with either filters or painlands depending on your preference, but it does make our manabase less resilient to the likes of blood moon (although I suppose blood moon wouldn't matter much if our splash is red).
Also, like I mentioned a few pages back, there is Mikokoro, Center of the sea if you want to experiment with something that trades the colorless requirement, the hellbent restriction, and reduces the cost by 1 mana for legendary status and the opponent drawing a card as well. Though I suppose in practice that replaces the personal hellbent restriction with a soft restriction of your opponent being hellbent.
Again, I tried searching the thread for discussions about Mikokoro and couldn't find any. I also could only find dead links for the old thread and couldn't see if we had discussed it there before or not. Barring the opponent drawing an instant, any of our discard engines should be able to force the opponent to discard their card before they can gain any benefit from it.
RE: Mikokoro- It probably has nearly as much merit as Seagate. Again, it would be a 1-off, possibly 3-1 split wth muta. The idea here is you don't use it unless it makes sense to do so ie you are going to Lili the card away anyways. The opponent being hellbent as a soft requirement gives it some flexibility as well. Maybe you are flailing for an answer and you don't care if he has cards, these situations happen.
Funkrusher - Ya dude, LotV is like the soul of 8Rack. You have to use her
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I don't run rats but I'd like to point out that Swarmyard could regenerate Mutavault as well I believe. Another little added bonus. Good luck.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
OK, on to the questions:
1. If I have two (or more) Racks and/or two (or more) Shrieking Afflictions on the battlefield at the same time, and my opponent has less than three cards in their hand, does each card deal damage? So, for example, if I have two Racks in play, will each one deal damage (so I'm dealing double the damage)? Or can only one Artifact or Enchantment trigger at a time even if I have two (or more) of them on the battlefield?
2. If I want to +1 Liliana and have no cards in my hand, can I still +1 her to make my opponent discard a card?
3. I currently have Smallpox in my deck, so this is a similar questions as #2. If I have no cards in hand and/or no creatures to sacrifice, can I still play the card and target my opponent? And when Smallpox says "each player loses 1 life, discards a card, sacrifices a creature, then sacrifices a land," does that mean you only sacrifice a creature and a land that are in play or does that include cards in your hand? Same goes for the opponent. Are creatures/lands in their hand safe?
4. And just so I'm understanding The Rack correctly, when it says "The Rack deals opponent 1 damage for each card in his or her hand fewer than three," does that mean if they have 2 cards in hand they are dealt 1 damage or is it 2 damage? Or if they have zero or 1 card in hand, what is the damage dealt by The Rack? I find the language on the card a bit confusing.
I'm sure these are fairly basic MTG questions but I am pretty new to the game and this deck clearly takes some skill to play properly, so I really appreciate the help! Thank you.
Also don't forget to fix your list. Inquisition is the best card in your deck and you only have 3 of them. You also seem to have missclicked during deckbuilding and somehow wound up with a Pack Rat in there, I'm sure that was meant to be a real card.
Jokes aside (or are they?) you can't play a Smallpox deck with only 20 lands, you will lose to yourself 90% of the time.
Thanks!!!
Thanks! So you're anti Pack Rat? I think I've seen that discussed in this thread but I've only skimmed through it at this point. What do you run instead of Pack Rat? Also, I was wondering about the land count, but when I play test this deck it seems I get enough lands most of the time. But I'll take a look at that. Any suggestions on what to swap out if I add a couple more lands?
Cube
Terricube
Modern
8Rack
Burn
Legacy
Oops, All Spells!
Pox
Yup, I get it now. This is all very helpful info. And I've been reading through the thread so I saw Esperino's case against Pack Rat. I'm going to start with Pack Rat in the deck but am totally open to trying different approaches. Sounds like fun.
Cube
Terricube
Modern
8Rack
Burn
Legacy
Oops, All Spells!
Pox
So, it's not like I'm not open to somebody proving me wrong, but playing a 2 mana vanilla 1/1 that requires you to invest 3 mana and discard and actual card from your deck to make... yup, a bear... doesn't make too much sense to me. After 2 turns, 5 mana, a 1/1 that somehow survived a Modern board state and card disadvantaging yourself, you wind up with two bears. Vanilla 2/2 creatures. After that, the stats work out OK, if you assume you want a card you have put in your deck for some strategy purposes to become a vanilla Centaur, with the added bonuss of growing your other creatures. That's actually worth a card and 3 mana, again, assuming you don't need your cards to do other things, which you really do. And after that, it probably becomes one of the best creatures ever printed, except anytime they kill even one Pack Rat you are back to the previous state. Vanilla creatures just aren't that good in Modern, regardless of their stats (one obvious exception to this). In all honesty, guys, tell me of a reasonably competitive deck that plays non-Tarmogoyf creatures without other text on them. And more importantly, why do you want to be doing that?
I've been thinking a lot about Mikokoro, Center of the Sea and how that may be a great enabler for a dead Waste Not.
Check out these videos:
8Rack vs Eldrazi 1
8Rack vs Eldrazi 2