For the record I don't think the new planeswalker rule changes much of anything. Perhaps Gideon Tribal is better than it was before (unplayable) but that's not saying much. I guess it's interesting to have Liliana of the Veil and Liliana the Last Hope in play together. However I have found Last Hope to be pretty underwhelming anyway.
I went 3-1 at a local event yesterday playing this:
R1 BW Eldrazi, L 1-2
R2 Bogle W 2-0
R3 Affinity W 2-0
R4 Mono Red Goblins W 2-1
I'm super happy with this iteration of the deck. Most of all I think the 4 Tidehollow Sculler are great. At first I thought 3 was a good number since they aren't a great topdeck but I was wrong. Tidehollow is pretty much always good if you have a Copter in play, no matter the stage of the game, and the chances to have a Copter increase as the game goes on. It basically ensures that your Copter will both attack and survive, which is perfect.
I think it also plays the best on turn 3. There are a lot of matchups where tapping out on turn 3 for relatively anemic creatures (Souls or Splicer) is just bad. Sculler allows you to interact on turn 3 while crewing the Copter and potentially even casting another spell. It also gives you a good window to play Shambling Vent on turn 3. Vent can be pretty hard to fit into your curve since we have so many plays on the early turns.
Speaking of Shambling Vent, if it wasn't for Burn I would instantly cut the 4th Vent for another untapped land and I might do it anyway. It screws up your curve so much and I frequently find myself with multiple Vents in play and no reason to activate any of them. It mostly underscores how incredibly good Mutavault is as a painless untapped land that only costs 1 to activate.
Yup. I'm a little crazy about losing to Burn so I haven't yet brought myself to cut the 4th Vent. It makes it so much easier to win if you can find a Vent in game 1. Otherwise you're totally right: I almost never activate Vent.
It might be crazy but what about 0 Shambling Vent and some number of Blinkmoth Nexus in addition to Mutavault? Your Burn matchup gets undeniably worse but then you have no tapped lands and even more cheap manlands, e.g.:
You'd almost certainly have to play an urborg at that point, but I feel thats too many colorless sources.
Tidehollow sculler becomes difficult, and likely painful, to cast on curve. Even liliana isnt as easy to cast as it should be.
Yeah it's definitely not doable with 4 Sculler 4 Liliana. Even 4 Mutavault is a little dicey with Sculler. I'm in love with Sculler though. The last time I tried it was after I added Elspeth because I thought it could work well with Angelic Blessing. It wasn't impressive. Copter pushes it over the edge though. Copter is so busted!
If Blood Baron doesn't see play then neither would this (it is probably good for Standard though).
5-mana is too much for such a creature to be worth it.
IMO, blood baron or baneslayer angel are better.
We're rarely going to play 7(!) life to kill something, and protection or flying/first strike/ +1/+1 are pretty relevant.
Went 4-1 in fnm with this list which borrows a lot from dead guy ale with its disruption, just changes win con. The deck does need marsh flats but other tab that seemed very competitive versus tiered decks resilient to board wipes and able to break through stalls and hate due to night market lookout. Beat burn, jeskai geist, eldrazi tron and jeskai delver with geist. Lost to bant company. Sideboard needs a bit more tuning but main seemed very consistent and allowed to turn corner and close out games very quickly.
@HugeElfBoy Interesting list, with the 8 vehicles does seem fair to expect pain seet to be active when desired. Was this made as more of a budget version though? Also don't you end up occasionally flooding out vehicles and not able to crew?
With the man lands, especially mutavault vehicle flood was rarely a problem. Pain seer was excellent often just attack for trigger with the amount of disruption and being able to turn off life loss when needs was convenient as well. Rubbing the deck back a few more times overt the weekend trying sculler over splicer still did good. Water not is an interesting idea mauve in side, but excess discard usually jyst gets pitched to copter. The major budget concern was marsh flats. I really luff the resilience to board wipes and harvester was a huge pain for many decks to deal with aty Guinness zodiac up a boot and helix. And ad mentioned night market lookout e feed up being a key that made the deck work breaking through boosts stalls where attacks are not profitable. Currently I am Teton n a more token centric list with raise the alarm and testing glint-sleeve siphoner to try and hey more life from harvester when needed or use harvester energy for card draw when needed. The vehicle base had proven to me top be I've of the quickest ways to turn the corner as to not lose to top of opponent's deck. But it's going tip the a lot of testing sand tuning to reach max efficiency.
With the man lands, especially mutavault vehicle flood was rarely a problem. Pain seer was excellent often just attack for trigger with the amount of disruption and being able to turn off life loss when needs was convenient as well. Rubbing the deck back a few more times overt the weekend trying sculler over splicer still did good. Water not is an interesting idea mauve in side, but excess discard usually jyst gets pitched to copter. The major budget concern was marsh flats. I really luff the resilience to board wipes and harvester was a huge pain for many decks to deal with aty Guinness zodiac up a boot and helix. And ad mentioned night market lookout e feed up being a key that made the deck work breaking through boosts stalls where attacks are not profitable. Currently I am Teton n a more token centric list with raise the alarm and testing glint-sleeve siphoner to try and hey more life from harvester when needed or use harvester energy for card draw when needed. The vehicle base had proven to me top be I've of the quickest ways to turn the corner as to not lose to top of opponent's deck. But it's going tip the a lot of testing sand tuning to reach max efficiency.
The amount of autocorrect in this post is hilarious.
I was alittle skeptical about smugglers copter and I thought that ghost quarter would be better than mutavault. But I've been grinding in leagues and they are clearly amazing together. Gideon is also a ridiculously fast closer, you guys should try him out.
My sideboard is still in flux, this was it in the last league:
I lost to burn and living end, because I couldn't draw my hate fast enough, the same thing has been happening, like losing to dredge because of no rip, etc... Liliana was supposed to be hate against x/1's, card advantage for midrange mirrors, and be able to recur fulminators. Turns out she's just too slow. I'm thinking about cutting her, and one needle for this sideboard:
The top 8 decks of modern (according to mtggoldfish) are:
eldrazi tron, grixis death's shadow, titan shift, burn, storm, affinity, u/w control, and abzan.
I think we are favored already against death's shadow, and u/w control.
I think we are around 50% against affinity and abzan (maybe a bit better against abzan).
So I've molded my board to be really good against the other 4.
fulminator, needle and wrath for eldrazi
fulminator, leyline for titan shift
leyline for burn
leyline, and rip for storm
I'm kind of worried about coco, I haven't played against that deck with this yet. You guys seem confidant in that matchup though. Will only a sideboarded persecution and wrath be good enough with my main, I guess cutting 2 inquisition for them?
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I think the card you are missing big time is Collective Brutality. It is amazing against both CoCo and Burn while being serviceable against Titanshift, Storm, Affinity, and many other decks. It's even playable against UW with Wrath / Cryptic and Abzan with Dark Confidant / Grim Flayer. It feels unfair to have 4 Collective Brutality against Burn.
Of the decks you mention, I think Eldrazi Tron and Titanshift are by far the worst matchups. I'm surprised you think Affinity is 50/50 - I think it's closer to 70/30 in our favor. I've decided to mostly give up on Eldrazi Tron but I like Anguished Unmaking and Pithing Needle out of the board.
I don't like Leyline much since our clock isn't that fast, especially when we are down a card, and because decks you want it for all have good answers. Burn will board in Destructive Revelry for Sculler and Copter and Titanshift can Summoner's Pact for Reclamation Sage or just kill all our creatures. Storm can board in Echoing Truth and find it as they combo off. Against Storm and Titanshift my plan is to discard them into oblivion and kill them asap. Brutality is key again because it can hit Scapeshift and Gifts Ungiven.
I don't like Wrath with Sculler and Bob. It would be OK if you were siding those out but Sculler and Bob are among the best cards against CoCo. Liliana of the Veil is the first card I side out, e.g. for Collective Brutality. Wrath is a little better against Eldrazi but once again Sculler and Bob are extremely good as is Lingering Souls. I think Wrath ends up being pretty awkward in this deck.
We definitely have a different sideboard philosophy but your main is within 6 cards of mine
That lists looks pretty sweet for sure. I noticed you also have Scullers in this version. How do you like them so far? Sculler + Copter is my new favorite combo.
I'm not sold on Ruin Raider but I can see how 4 Bob 4 Copter 4 Raider could draw a ton of cards. Raider is a lot worse when you're behind than Blade Splicer or Liliana of the Veil and if you can't trigger it right away then it's a very slow card. I'm not sure more than 1 or 2 makes sense since you can get Bob-flooded with 4 in your deck let alone 8.
Ruin raider seems like a house for standard/limited but it's 3CC in modern is already ehhhh. Moreso this isn't a deck as I see it that is trying to be very aggresive first few turns but rather playing old necropotence strategy of eliminating opponents resources while building up card advantage. Also I just saw you kept the 4 bobs and 2 thoughtseizes...seems like a ton of life loss. Congrats on the FNM though, at very least looks like a lot of fun to pilot and just draw massive cards or die trying
Hello Everyone, Been playing Grixis control for years and UWR before that. Looking to start adding some 2 color control style list to my armory and Deadguy seems right up my ally. My list below is just my starting point form looking at what i have learned from years of blue control and and ghosting forums for about a week.
Reasoning: 6 Fetchlands is more for turning in revolt and making sure i can get basics to save life and bloodmoon. Split in basics is because the deck is still in construction so not sure which color i will be leaning more towards. Split between chapel and court yard is because i'm worried more about drawing a Courtyard late then a chapel early ( wish we had the BW cycle)/ only 6 man lands due to higher creature count in list.
Creatures 8
Dark Confidant x4
TideHollow Sculler x4
Reasoning: They both arguable best thing to be doing here
Artifacts 3
Smugglers Copter x 3
Reasoning: Works well with turning 1/1 spirits into 3/3, allows Sculler and Bob to add more to aggro plan and the loot is great, I am only running three to get more space doe spells and i have a few freind who play Grand Architect and 4 even gets cloggy for them with more creatures to crew.
Planswalkers 5
Liliana of the Veil x 3
Gideon Ally of Zendikar x 2
Reasoning: Lili works purefectly with this style of deck and is just plain strong, This Gideons is a great rate to both up are clock with his body, Anthem if we have a few spirits and grind control with tokens.
Reasoning: That is my normal split of discard between inquisition, siege and brutality. good balance of power and speed to both take what you need and not spend all your life. Souls is Souls lol
Instant 9
Path to Exile x4
Fatal Push x2
Dark Blast x1
Smother x1
Zealous Persecution x1
Reasoning: This is where i have gotten the most flakk for this list. "only 2 push?!?!" yes i know it is good but this deck does not work on mana denial and path just kills it dead with no hoops, the exile has also come up more then normal. Dark blast is a pet card that is powerful in certain match ups like elves and affinity but it gets sided out alot. Smother is so i have some form of removal if i get hit with a Chalice and it makes the curve work a bit smoother and i find that i end up with less wasted mana. Persecution is my favorite black white card, it can create huge blowouts, wipe boards and turn up you clock.
SideBoard 15
Pithing needle x1
Disenchant(or other type effect) x2
Shadow of Doubt x2
Slaughter Pact x1
Linvala, Keeper if Silence x1
Blood Baron of Viscopa x1
Rest in Peace x2
Wrath of god x1
Damnation x1
Kitchen Kinks x3
Reasoning: Just something i threw together to start testing cards, I like the kinks and blood baron in alot of place like against control and higher aggro decks. RiP for graveyard, Wrath and Damanation for wipes when needed ( mostly eldrazi) Pact because more kill, Shadow for Scapeshift and maybe cord decks, needle for walkers and disenchant effects because i don't like not having them in the board just not sure which once are right for this deck yet.
Let me know what yaw think and hopefully i can get this bad boy up ad running in no time. Have a great day
@PapaMoons8 You almost certainly are going to want more than 22 lands in this deck. My MB doesn't even play 4 drops and it still wants 24 lands, thanks to mutavault and shambling vent activations (and the fact that they get killed by creature removal). We don't have cantrips the way blue decks do so we have to play a fair number of lands
My list (basically davemo's list with -1 elspeth +1 liliana last hope and different sideboard):
Thanks for the advice! After some testing i have added the 23ed land, it seems to be nice with getting to 6 mana to activate both a vents and vault. Love the idea of 4 lili v but i only own two and im borrowing my confidants to money a bit tight but the gideons seem like a win more in my testing. Maybe 3 lili v and a last hope being i run more creatures side..
What do you think about side board, what decks are really bad that i should focus on and if i have a elves heavy meta would 2 zealous and 2 wrath effects be enough?
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I went 3-1 at a local event yesterday playing this:
4 Mutavault
4 Shambling Vent
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Marsh Flats
2 Godless Shrine
1 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
Artifact
4 Smuggler's Copter
Sorcery
4 Lingering Souls
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
Instant
4 Path to Exile
4 Fatal Push
Planeswalker
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Collective Brutality
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Celestial Purge
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Big Game Hunter
R1 BW Eldrazi, L 1-2
R2 Bogle W 2-0
R3 Affinity W 2-0
R4 Mono Red Goblins W 2-1
I'm super happy with this iteration of the deck. Most of all I think the 4 Tidehollow Sculler are great. At first I thought 3 was a good number since they aren't a great topdeck but I was wrong. Tidehollow is pretty much always good if you have a Copter in play, no matter the stage of the game, and the chances to have a Copter increase as the game goes on. It basically ensures that your Copter will both attack and survive, which is perfect.
I think it also plays the best on turn 3. There are a lot of matchups where tapping out on turn 3 for relatively anemic creatures (Souls or Splicer) is just bad. Sculler allows you to interact on turn 3 while crewing the Copter and potentially even casting another spell. It also gives you a good window to play Shambling Vent on turn 3. Vent can be pretty hard to fit into your curve since we have so many plays on the early turns.
Speaking of Shambling Vent, if it wasn't for Burn I would instantly cut the 4th Vent for another untapped land and I might do it anyway. It screws up your curve so much and I frequently find myself with multiple Vents in play and no reason to activate any of them. It mostly underscores how incredibly good Mutavault is as a painless untapped land that only costs 1 to activate.
It might be crazy but what about 0 Shambling Vent and some number of Blinkmoth Nexus in addition to Mutavault? Your Burn matchup gets undeniably worse but then you have no tapped lands and even more cheap manlands, e.g.:
4 Mutavault
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Marsh Flats
3 Godless Shrine
1 Arid Mesa
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
Artifact
4 Smuggler's Copter
Sorcery
4 Lingering Souls
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
Instant
4 Path to Exile
4 Fatal Push
Planeswalker
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Collective Brutality
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Celestial Purge
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Big Game Hunter
this also makes Elspeth worse because she doesn't have Baneslayer Angel mode any more and is harder to cast.
Tidehollow sculler becomes difficult, and likely painful, to cast on curve. Even liliana isnt as easy to cast as it should be.
what do you think, guys? quite impactful, but is it too costly?
5-mana is too much for such a creature to be worth it.
We're rarely going to play 7(!) life to kill something, and protection or flying/first strike/ +1/+1 are pretty relevant.
4 pain seer
4 night market lookout
3 blade splicer
Vehicles 8
4 smuggler's copter
4 aethersphere harvester
Spells 19
4 lingering souls
4 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
4 path to exile
2 fatal push
2 collective brutality
4 concealed courtyard
4 godless shrine
3 shambling vent
3 ghost quarter
3 mutavault
1 plains
4 swamp
3 fragmentize
2 kambal, consul of allocation
2 dusk//dawn
2 blessed alliance
4 relic of progenitus
2 Liliana, the last hope
WDeath and TaxesW
RWGBurnGWR
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
WDeath and TaxesW
RWGBurnGWR
I've been doing pretty well with this maindeck on mtgo.
4 marsh flats
4 concealed courtyard
3 godless shrine
3 shambling vent
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 plains
2 swamp
4 mutavault
1 vault of the archangel
4 tidehollow sculler
4 dark confidant
artifacts: 4
4 smuggler's copter
walkers: 6
3 Liliana of the veil
3 Gideon, ally of zendikar
spells: 18
4 fatal push
4 path to exile
3 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozilek
4 lingering souls
I was alittle skeptical about smugglers copter and I thought that ghost quarter would be better than mutavault. But I've been grinding in leagues and they are clearly amazing together. Gideon is also a ridiculously fast closer, you guys should try him out.
My sideboard is still in flux, this was it in the last league:
3 rest in peace
1 zealous persecution
3 fulminator mage
2 Liliana, the last hope
3 leyline of sanctity
1 wrath of god
I lost to burn and living end, because I couldn't draw my hate fast enough, the same thing has been happening, like losing to dredge because of no rip, etc... Liliana was supposed to be hate against x/1's, card advantage for midrange mirrors, and be able to recur fulminators. Turns out she's just too slow. I'm thinking about cutting her, and one needle for this sideboard:
4 rest in peace
1 zealous persecution
4 fulminator mage
4 leyline of sanctity
1 wrath of god
The top 8 decks of modern (according to mtggoldfish) are:
eldrazi tron, grixis death's shadow, titan shift, burn, storm, affinity, u/w control, and abzan.
I think we are favored already against death's shadow, and u/w control.
I think we are around 50% against affinity and abzan (maybe a bit better against abzan).
So I've molded my board to be really good against the other 4.
fulminator, needle and wrath for eldrazi
fulminator, leyline for titan shift
leyline for burn
leyline, and rip for storm
I'm kind of worried about coco, I haven't played against that deck with this yet. You guys seem confidant in that matchup though. Will only a sideboarded persecution and wrath be good enough with my main, I guess cutting 2 inquisition for them?
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Of the decks you mention, I think Eldrazi Tron and Titanshift are by far the worst matchups. I'm surprised you think Affinity is 50/50 - I think it's closer to 70/30 in our favor. I've decided to mostly give up on Eldrazi Tron but I like Anguished Unmaking and Pithing Needle out of the board.
I don't like Leyline much since our clock isn't that fast, especially when we are down a card, and because decks you want it for all have good answers. Burn will board in Destructive Revelry for Sculler and Copter and Titanshift can Summoner's Pact for Reclamation Sage or just kill all our creatures. Storm can board in Echoing Truth and find it as they combo off. Against Storm and Titanshift my plan is to discard them into oblivion and kill them asap. Brutality is key again because it can hit Scapeshift and Gifts Ungiven.
I don't like Wrath with Sculler and Bob. It would be OK if you were siding those out but Sculler and Bob are among the best cards against CoCo. Liliana of the Veil is the first card I side out, e.g. for Collective Brutality. Wrath is a little better against Eldrazi but once again Sculler and Bob are extremely good as is Lingering Souls. I think Wrath ends up being pretty awkward in this deck.
We definitely have a different sideboard philosophy but your main is within 6 cards of mine
I'm not sold on Ruin Raider but I can see how 4 Bob 4 Copter 4 Raider could draw a ton of cards. Raider is a lot worse when you're behind than Blade Splicer or Liliana of the Veil and if you can't trigger it right away then it's a very slow card. I'm not sure more than 1 or 2 makes sense since you can get Bob-flooded with 4 in your deck let alone 8.
DeadGuy Ale
Lands 22
Marsh Flats x4
Arid Mesa x2
Godless Shrine x3
Isolated Chalpe x2
Concealed Courtyard x2
Sahmbling Vents x3
Mutavault x3
Plains x2
Swamp x2
Reasoning: 6 Fetchlands is more for turning in revolt and making sure i can get basics to save life and bloodmoon. Split in basics is because the deck is still in construction so not sure which color i will be leaning more towards. Split between chapel and court yard is because i'm worried more about drawing a Courtyard late then a chapel early ( wish we had the BW cycle)/ only 6 man lands due to higher creature count in list.
Creatures 8
Dark Confidant x4
TideHollow Sculler x4
Reasoning: They both arguable best thing to be doing here
Artifacts 3
Smugglers Copter x 3
Reasoning: Works well with turning 1/1 spirits into 3/3, allows Sculler and Bob to add more to aggro plan and the loot is great, I am only running three to get more space doe spells and i have a few freind who play Grand Architect and 4 even gets cloggy for them with more creatures to crew.
Planswalkers 5
Liliana of the Veil x 3
Gideon Ally of Zendikar x 2
Reasoning: Lili works purefectly with this style of deck and is just plain strong, This Gideons is a great rate to both up are clock with his body, Anthem if we have a few spirits and grind control with tokens.
Sorcery 16
Lingering Souls x4
Inquisition of Kolzilekt x4
Thoughtseize x2
Collective Brutality x4
Reasoning: That is my normal split of discard between inquisition, siege and brutality. good balance of power and speed to both take what you need and not spend all your life. Souls is Souls lol
Instant 9
Path to Exile x4
Fatal Push x2
Dark Blast x1
Smother x1
Zealous Persecution x1
Reasoning: This is where i have gotten the most flakk for this list. "only 2 push?!?!" yes i know it is good but this deck does not work on mana denial and path just kills it dead with no hoops, the exile has also come up more then normal. Dark blast is a pet card that is powerful in certain match ups like elves and affinity but it gets sided out alot. Smother is so i have some form of removal if i get hit with a Chalice and it makes the curve work a bit smoother and i find that i end up with less wasted mana. Persecution is my favorite black white card, it can create huge blowouts, wipe boards and turn up you clock.
SideBoard 15
Pithing needle x1
Disenchant(or other type effect) x2
Shadow of Doubt x2
Slaughter Pact x1
Linvala, Keeper if Silence x1
Blood Baron of Viscopa x1
Rest in Peace x2
Wrath of god x1
Damnation x1
Kitchen Kinks x3
Reasoning: Just something i threw together to start testing cards, I like the kinks and blood baron in alot of place like against control and higher aggro decks. RiP for graveyard, Wrath and Damanation for wipes when needed ( mostly eldrazi) Pact because more kill, Shadow for Scapeshift and maybe cord decks, needle for walkers and disenchant effects because i don't like not having them in the board just not sure which once are right for this deck yet.
Let me know what yaw think and hopefully i can get this bad boy up ad running in no time. Have a great day
My list (basically davemo's list with -1 elspeth +1 liliana last hope and different sideboard):
4 Smuggler's Copter
Creature
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
Instant
4 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
Land
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
4 Mutavault
1 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
3 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Sorcery
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Rest in Peace
1 Celestial Purge
3 Disenchant
4 Collective Brutality
What do you think about side board, what decks are really bad that i should focus on and if i have a elves heavy meta would 2 zealous and 2 wrath effects be enough?