This is currently what I'm rolling with for draw-go. Did OK at a couple of events this week with it, pretty much smashing affinity and junk coco, losing to lantern and splitting two matches with burn.
This is where I'm at in testing with gifts. It's performed reasonably well in testing--against fast aggressive decks, or things like infect, you can stave off the offense with path/leak/remand/wraths and then gifts into elesh norn to lock them out. Against combo decks, same idea, but gifts for iona. In grindy matchups like abzan midrange, I found that my preferred package is gifts/buried ruin/academy ruins/crucible, which gets us crucible online to grind them out; if they're pressuring you and you just need a value package, get gifts/lingering souls/thirst for knowledge/snapcaster mage. That generally should guarantee enough of a punch to stabilize against midrange; they're never going to give you another gifts, so you're generally getting both halves of souls + a thirst for knowledge, which lets you draw and pitch souls to really grind on them. The sideboard plan is transformational: cut 4 gifts, iona, elesh, unburial, thopter, sword, crucible, 3 signets, buried ruin, and one other spell as matchup appropriate. Board in everything.
It's possible signets should be talismans for casting path/whatever on the same turn. IDK. haven't tested enough with each to know whether the flexibility is worth the loss of mana fixing.
61 listed main, 14 side because what else you cut depends on the matchup. Basically, if you expect your opponent to fight gifts via graveyard interaction (or maybe playing leylines), you bring in the transformational plan. Otherwise, you can bring in discard, leylines, lingering souls, or whatever as needed. This transformational plan has the advantage of being solid against every anti-gifts plan--gifts is graveyard value, artifact reliant, and opponent targeted. The board plan is grindy attrition that is basically entirely not graveyard based. There's a whole spectrum of ways to board--you can cut gifts entirely, you can keep in one or two and just one fatty/one rites, etc.
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Now that everyone's been brewing for a while, I'm curious as to everybodies actual success rate with draw-go. For quite a while I was doing really well with it, but this metagame seems to be mostly all infect and burn and zooIcide. How are you all handling that?
Now that everyone's been brewing for a while, I'm curious as to everybodies actual success rate with draw-go. For quite a while I was doing really well with it, but this metagame seems to be mostly all infect and burn and zooIcide. How are you all handling that?
As the resident UW player I've been crushing with my list. I haven't updated the SB to include leylines or halos yet since I can't find any for trade and I'm cheap, so it's my basic go to list. Delver is a joke if you have removal, jund is a bye, coco is a bye, but affinity still punks me out now and again with a turn 1 plating or overseer that I can't kill before they untap. Burn is still a nightmare game 1, but g2 is at least close enough to be somewhat comfortable with. Without discard in my UW list scapeshift is a nigh unbeatable, but once I get the leylines and halos in I imagine it will also be a bye since I can very easily protect them. When I was on UWR that was my plan and it was laughably easy so I expect it to mostly be the same.
Zoo is also in the same camp as affinity in that you're a heavy favorite, but they can very easily just draw the nuts and curb stomp you into oblivion. Infect however I can't really say because I have yet to have a game in the last few months that were actually representative of the match up for one reason or another. Game such as ones where they have only 2 pump spells and find 9 threats on top of their deck or I mull to 4 twice in a row or I draw 3 paths, a snap, and a pair of GQs while wondering when I got so good at playing magic. Suffice to say my games against infect have been obscenely lopsided in either direction lately for some reason. Regardless, it has made me concerned enough that it's what made me want to SB halos initially with the fringe benefits being just an extra bonus rather than the goal.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
Personally, not amazingly well locally. Lots of 2/1 finishes in weekly events. I chalk it up to the fact that I've been seeing a ton of infect lately. Burn I find to be a significantly better matchup than a coin toss, you just have to play really tight. Infect is just rough with draw-go--we really can't actually beat their best draws, and their deck has a significant percentage of the time where it folds to a stiff breeze because of its own inconsistency, so I don't bother sideboarding heavily for it. Runed halo and night of souls' betrayal are obviously sweet against the deck, but they're very swingy cards.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I don't care what anybody says, AV is still a very powerful card that is 100% playable in control in modern. It feels amazing being able to hold up interaction without having to choose between removal and a draw spell. Don't mind the telling time, I'm trying them out for now just as some filtering and selection in game 1 when half of my deck may or may not be blank.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
I think ancestral is fine if you don't have access to esper charm, but esper charm is probably still the better card in a vacuum. flexibility > power a lot of the time.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I like your first two lists for the most part amalek, but not impressed by the teachings one.
I feel that we don't need to splash green now that anguished unmaking is a card, as teachings can end the game before we start to lose to topdecks.
Past that, I don't think dimir charm or wall of omens are ideal.
Plumeveil feels much better if its even an effect you want at all.
Also, elesh norn is an awful lot better than crovax. She doesn't protect herself as well, but the curve of teachings > teferi > teachings flashbacked > eleshnorn is powerful (and with AV you're likely to hit land drops), and its more or less a 1 card combo that crushes a lot of decks, all at instant speed.
Still working on testing AV in the regular esper control shell, just finished with finals so I should have a lot more time to do so.
On a different note, I played gifts not too long ago.
I played this:
Went a fairly disappointing 2-2, but I think it was more luck/matchup based than any issues with the decklist, which I was quite happy with.
My play that day was definitely below where it should be, but again, the deck played well.
I thought about careful consideration instead of the epiphany, but it worked quite well.
Dimir charm was also a thought, but I do not own any, and just went without. In a more aggressive meta, I might play it here.
7-0'd the win a box yesterday. Pulled 2 vendilion cliques, a goyf, and 2 dark confidants in addition to some other goodies.
Computer battery is low and I just got to the shop for a day of testing, but here's the list, I'll post the full report later.
7-0'd the win a box yesterday. Pulled 2 vendilion cliques, a goyf, and 2 dark confidants in addition to some other goodies.
Computer battery is low and I just got to the shop for a day of testing, but here's the list, I'll post the full report later.
So, I took my UWR Draw-Go list to Modern yesterday, went 2-2. I feel like it could easily have been 3-1 if not for the wierd mishaps against Infect in r3. Here:
G1: Your typical grind into Zenith game. A t2 Bob was Ambush Vipered by a Snappy after he played a tapped land and swings in. Another Bob gets bolted (thanks for the topdeck, deck!). From that point on, it was about carefully maintaining a safe board though 2 Lingering Souls w/ flashback over the course of a few turns. An AV was involved, and at the critical point in the game after he was gassed out, I topdecked a Zentih for 3 and drew it again the next turn. He scooped.
G2 I lead with T0 Leyline into a T1 suspend AV. He reveals his hand of 2x Thoughtseize, 1x Liliana, 2x Lands, 1x Siege Rhino and scoops.
2-0, 1-0 overall
G1: I kept a hand with no counters (3x lands, path, AV, Think Twice; I think), and he T3 Karns me. I eot Bolt it and wind Pathing a Wurmcoil, but now I'm stuck on 3 lands until AV pops and finally draws me my 4th land. At the same time, he finds and plays an Ulamog off of an Ancient Stirrings and puts me on two lands (I snap-path it in rsp). I brick on land again, and he topdecks Karn. I'm on one land. Scoop.
In: 1x Wear // Tear, 2x Counterflux, 2x Clique
Out: 2x Bolt, 3x Supreme Verdict
G2: I keep a fine opener, stop him from assembling Tron quickly with a counter into a GQ, Counterflux a threat, and draw-step clique away the last threat in his next turn. Things are looking good! He draws Pyroclasm off of Clique. Ok. I keep playing magic, he's topdecking lands, I counter threats... Emrakul. I can't do any-damn-thing about it, so I die. Frustrating.
0-2, 1-1 Overall
I knew the guy always played Infect, so I was pumped to playa against him -- I love Infect matches, and I always configure my deck to have the edge in them -- hence why I played Bolt instead of Helix last night.
G1: I keep a 4 land, Think Twice, AV, Path hand, and draw into Bolts/Paths/Snaps for days. He had no chance, xD.
G2: I keep a shifty 2x GQ, Collonade, Path, Halo, Snap Clique hand because I know it has the tools I need. I topdeck 2 lands in a row, and I'm doing great -- tight play, until I have lethal on board w/ my Clique and a Colonnnade ready for next turn -- I'm at 6 life tho. He swing with Noble Heirarch, I declare no block with removal at the ready, and then he casts... Stonewood Invocation for exactsies. At this point I'm super tilted, because I was actually the one who told him about the card after seeing it in a Legacy Infect v. Miracles match where it was an absolute blowout. He obviously agreed. Anyways, I couldn't do anything and I scoop them up. =\
G3: I'm able to get myself off tilt and prepare for the last game. I get a decent, but not crazy hand, and we grind for a while. He's got an empty board except for a Hierarch (I'm at a health life total), so I Colonnade him. During his turn, he Gitaxian Probes me to see I have nothing to counter his... Wild Defiance. Great, now my Bolts are blank. He swings one and passes. Well, I had no choice but to Runed Halo naming Hierarch, since if he goes for it during his turn with the right support, I'm just dead (my hand had Bolt, Think Twice, Spell Snare, lands). Multiple turns later, and much "what if" planning later, he topdecks multiple Inkmoths in a row, and is able to grind me out with multiple exalted triggers, a Pendelhaven, and the threat of Wild Defiance going nuts -- even through a Clique, a GQ, a path, and Dispel for spells, Spell Snare for Blighted Agent. =\
1-2, 1-2 overall
We play a very long game one, as he gets unluicky and topdecks all lands and ways to search for lands. I'm able to Collonade his nearly-ulting Ajani Vengeant away, and fade one more turn -- counter shields are back up, I'm cruising forward with draw spells on his eot and suspended AV's. I'm able to get through multiple O-Stones and Kozilek's Returns while countering other threatts, and an arbitrarily large Zenith ends it. Game one left 17 mins on the clock, and he'd exiled all 4 of my Colonnades with Karn/Ulamog when I won that game.
In: 1x Wear / Tear, 2x Counterflux, 3x Leyline (he has a lot of walkers that target me -- Karn, Ajani Ult, Ugin, etc.), 2x Clique
G2: I keep a land light hand, and get a handful of Counterflux and Cryptic, with a draw-step Clique at the ready for next turn. He casts Crumble to Dust on my 3rd land (Steam Vents), I fade a land, but have a AV with one counter left. I pass, he Crumbles my Hallowed Fountain. Ugh. I cast AV and and draw 2 lands, Logic Knot, and something else. I bridge back into 3 and 4 mana without a hitch, and he never gets through my wall of 2x Counterflux 3x Cryptic. He dies to Elspeth with almost nothing in hand.
2-0, 2-2 overall
Overall, I really like the list. I think switching the Angers for Stony Silences in the board is warranted. Despite the above match against Infect, both me and my opponent agreed that I'm very favored in the matchup -- he can't win unless he shoves some kind of bomb into the equation, like Wild Defiance or Stonewood Invocation. I really like the deck, and I think it has just as much potential as Esper. That being said, I feel like I've been away from Esper for a little too long -- so I may switch back to Esper for a little while.
I don't care about your uwr list and Î've grown tired of this thread. Been here for 2 years and you just screw the whole point. There are plenty of uwr thread where you can show your nice results and ideas. But many of us here are playing esper and will not change our shell. At least if you were proposing some very interesting tech likke bitterblossom. But no, you offer lightning bolt! Can we please focus back on the thread? P'ease!!!
Does anyone else want me to stop posting non-Esper results here? I thought that drawing comparisons to results with similar-but-different shells would help in defining what Esper should be doing. For example, my testing with Bant, UW, and Tapout shells has shown that Esper is better. The only reason I'm still testing with UWr Draw-Go is that it shores up the early-turn weaknesses of Esper in a way that feels competitive while not too dissimilar to Esper.
Edit: To clarify, I've only been posting with decks I feel could be as good as Esper or variations on the base of the deck to see if any other options help the deck to perform better.
Does anyone else want me to stop posting non-Esper results here? I thought that drawing comparisons to results with similar-but-different shells would help in defining what Esper should be doing. For example, my testing with Bant, UW, and Tapout shells has shown that Esper is better. The only reason I'm still testing with UWr Draw-Go is that it shores up the early-turn weaknesses of Esper in a way that feels competitive while not too dissimilar to Esper.
Edit: To clarify, I've only been posting with decks I feel could be as good as Esper or variations on the base of the deck to see if any other options help the deck to perform better.
As a frequent and quality contributor to this forum, I do not mind it at all. In fact, I frequently do the same. As long as the decks are in the spirit of draw go, or the spirit of true control, I feel like we can learn something from those lists and results as long as we eventually drift back on track. Nothing exists in a vaccuum. My bitterblossom tech was inspired by rememebering my old caw blade days.
That being said however, I've been testing all day and I've since cut the blossoms in favor of somewhere between the UW list posted earlier and traditional draw-go esper. This is one I'm really happy about.
I like Hurkyl's recall seeing as it can fend off affinity nut draws, but also allow us to construct an alpha strike against Lantern control regardless of how many Ensnaring Brides they have. Those spots could also be Fracturing Gust is you have a lot of Boggles, but even then, 4 Runed Halo in the 75 is AMAZING. 2/2 split between main and board feels about right.
I think this 75 is a prime example of keeping the spirit of the original list in mind while also making sensible tweaks to account for the metagame. The greatest crime would be to actually dogmatically adhere to the original sideboard. Any list you derive inspiration from should have a dramatically revised sideboard, whether you're piloting Esper Control, or Burn, or anything. The metagame from points in the past has little or no relation to what we face today.
Permanent answers like Negate replace remands main, and post board we can pivot to a full 4 of those negates, which helps protect our leylines against burn, and helps totally hose out decks like living end that have a rough time fighting countermagic.
The Oblivion Rings are not detention spheres, because we want hate for blood moon in addition to the actual effect.
Hello! I've not posted in this thread before, but I'm a huge fan of Esper Control. I've been tweaking my list for the past few months, and finally managed to 4-0 a local tournament! I won a V-Clique! Thing in the Ice + Snapcaster was amazing in practice. What do you think?
Does anyone else want me to stop posting non-Esper results here? I thought that drawing comparisons to results with similar-but-different shells would help in defining what Esper should be doing. For example, my testing with Bant, UW, and Tapout shells has shown that Esper is better. The only reason I'm still testing with UWr Draw-Go is that it shores up the early-turn weaknesses of Esper in a way that feels competitive while not too dissimilar to Esper.
Edit: To clarify, I've only been posting with decks I feel could be as good as Esper or variations on the base of the deck to see if any other options help the deck to perform better.
Unfortunately, I am going to have to side with GoodPastor on this one. I have not been following the Esper Draw-go thread for long, but this thread does seem to get a little more sidetracked than any other that I have followed.
I can understand that this provides convenient evidence to show how Esper Draw-Go compares to other draw-go and tap-out lists. However, those looking for evidence on the topic can easily compare the results from the dedicated threads for those archetypes. I am not a moderator and barely a contributor to this thread, but as a purist i think that Esper Draw-go contributors within this forum could be a little more focused. If you are testing other decks you will probably get more relevant feedback by posting to those threads.
Does anyone else want me to stop posting non-Esper results here? I thought that drawing comparisons to results with similar-but-different shells would help in defining what Esper should be doing. For example, my testing with Bant, UW, and Tapout shells has shown that Esper is better. The only reason I'm still testing with UWr Draw-Go is that it shores up the early-turn weaknesses of Esper in a way that feels competitive while not too dissimilar to Esper.
Edit: To clarify, I've only been posting with decks I feel could be as good as Esper or variations on the base of the deck to see if any other options help the deck to perform better.
Unfortunately, I am going to have to side with GoodPastor on this one. I have not been following the Esper Draw-go thread for long, but this thread does seem to get a little more sidetracked than any other that I have followed.
I can understand that this provides convenient evidence to show how Esper Draw-Go compares to other draw-go and tap-out lists. However, those looking for evidence on the topic can easily compare the results from the dedicated threads for those archetypes. I am not a moderator and barely a contributor to this thread, but as a purist i think that Esper Draw-go contributors within this forum could be a little more focused. If you are testing other decks you will probably get more relevant feedback by posting to those threads.
The main benefit of posting other variants here helps further the discussion on how to develop Esper Draw-Go. For too long, the archetype remained stagnant, and it shows in the results. Especially now in a format where a lot of common matchups are unfavorable, new tech is needed, hence the experimentations with other archetypes.
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EDH GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG UBRNicol Bolas and his SuperfriendsPawnsUBR
Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
Not that it's a dictatorship and I'm not trying to be elitist, but most of the frequent contributors see the value in it, not because they want feedback on those lists, but to add to our overall knowledge / tech base.
Amalek himself has condoned these sort of discussions and that guy legitimately actually wrote the whole primer. Not trying to appeal to authority here, just saying.
If you feel like there is too much non-esper draw go happening here and you don't "get it", please feel free to start talking about esper draw go. Contribute your lists and ideas and ask for feedback, we will respond to you. Anything other than whining.
That is all fine and well, but the correct context isn't being given in these posts. There is a difference between new tech and a different deck.
It seems that the thread has evolved into a discussion of the UW/x Draw-Go shell instead of the named Esper Draw-Go. The amount of variation in the lists and lack of focus is detrimental to the thread's credibility.
The current thread discussion is far more generic than I would expect from the title and primer's opening page.
This is currently what I'm rolling with for draw-go. Did OK at a couple of events this week with it, pretty much smashing affinity and junk coco, losing to lantern and splitting two matches with burn.
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 hallowed fountain
2 watery grave
3 island
2 plains
1 swamp
2 ghost quarter
1 drowned catacomb
4 Cryptic Command
4 Spell Snare
2 Logic Knot
2 Remand
4 Esper Charm
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Path to Exile
3 Supreme Verdict
1 White sun's Zenith
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Celestial Purge
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Wrath of God
1 dispel
1 negate
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Runed Halo
This is where I'm at in testing with gifts. It's performed reasonably well in testing--against fast aggressive decks, or things like infect, you can stave off the offense with path/leak/remand/wraths and then gifts into elesh norn to lock them out. Against combo decks, same idea, but gifts for iona. In grindy matchups like abzan midrange, I found that my preferred package is gifts/buried ruin/academy ruins/crucible, which gets us crucible online to grind them out; if they're pressuring you and you just need a value package, get gifts/lingering souls/thirst for knowledge/snapcaster mage. That generally should guarantee enough of a punch to stabilize against midrange; they're never going to give you another gifts, so you're generally getting both halves of souls + a thirst for knowledge, which lets you draw and pitch souls to really grind on them. The sideboard plan is transformational: cut 4 gifts, iona, elesh, unburial, thopter, sword, crucible, 3 signets, buried ruin, and one other spell as matchup appropriate. Board in everything.
It's possible signets should be talismans for casting path/whatever on the same turn. IDK. haven't tested enough with each to know whether the flexibility is worth the loss of mana fixing.
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted delta
2 hallowed fountain
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 island
1 snow-covered island
1 plains
1 snow-covered plains
1 swamp
1 drowned catacomb
1 glacial fortress
1 ghost quarter
1 academy ruins
1 buried ruin
Engine:
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Unburial Rites
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 wurmcoil engine
1 thopter foundry
1 sword of the meek
1 crucible of worlds
1 think twice
1 lingering souls
1 snapcaster mage
Wrath package:
1 wrath of god
1 supreme verdict
1 day of judgement
Removal/countermagic/interaction:
3 azorius signet
4 path to exile
2 remand
2 mana leak
3 thoughtseize
3 leyline of sanctity
3 lingering souls
1 Elspeth, sun's champion
1 jace, architect of thought
2 sorin, lord of innistrad
2 inquisition of kozilek
3 liliana of the veil
61 listed main, 14 side because what else you cut depends on the matchup. Basically, if you expect your opponent to fight gifts via graveyard interaction (or maybe playing leylines), you bring in the transformational plan. Otherwise, you can bring in discard, leylines, lingering souls, or whatever as needed. This transformational plan has the advantage of being solid against every anti-gifts plan--gifts is graveyard value, artifact reliant, and opponent targeted. The board plan is grindy attrition that is basically entirely not graveyard based. There's a whole spectrum of ways to board--you can cut gifts entirely, you can keep in one or two and just one fatty/one rites, etc.
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted delta
2 hallowed fountain
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 island
1 snow-covered island
1 plains
1 snow-covered plains
1 swamp
1 drowned catacomb
1 glacial fortress
1 ghost quarter
1 academy ruins
3 thoughtseize
2 inquistion of kozilek
4 path to exile
2 mana leak
1 snapcaster mage
1 think twice
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 lingering souls
3 liliana of the veil
1 wrath of god
1 supreme verdict
1 day of judgement
3 leyline of sanctity
1 jace, architect of thought
2 sorin, lord of innistrad
1 wurmcoil engine
1 Elspeth, sun's champion
3 Azorius Signet
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 buried ruin
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Unburial Rites
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 thopter foundry
1 sword of the meek
1 crucible of worlds
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
2 hallowed fountain
2 watery grave
2 island
2 plains
1 swamp
2 glacial fortress
2 drowned catacomb
1 mystic gate
1 breeding pool
4 ancestral vision
4 esper charm
3 mystical teachings
3 supreme verdict
1 consume the meek
4 path to exile
1 spell snare
1 dimir charm
2 abrupt decay
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
2 wall of omens
1 sphinx's revelation
1 snapcaster mage
1 Pulse of the fields
1 fracturing gust
1 dispel
1 negate
1 consume the meek
1 extirpate
1 surgical extraction
1 celestial purge
1 krosan grip
3 leyline of sanctity
1 sudden death
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Now that everyone's been brewing for a while, I'm curious as to everybodies actual success rate with draw-go. For quite a while I was doing really well with it, but this metagame seems to be mostly all infect and burn and zooIcide. How are you all handling that?
As the resident UW player I've been crushing with my list. I haven't updated the SB to include leylines or halos yet since I can't find any for trade and I'm cheap, so it's my basic go to list. Delver is a joke if you have removal, jund is a bye, coco is a bye, but affinity still punks me out now and again with a turn 1 plating or overseer that I can't kill before they untap. Burn is still a nightmare game 1, but g2 is at least close enough to be somewhat comfortable with. Without discard in my UW list scapeshift is a nigh unbeatable, but once I get the leylines and halos in I imagine it will also be a bye since I can very easily protect them. When I was on UWR that was my plan and it was laughably easy so I expect it to mostly be the same.
Zoo is also in the same camp as affinity in that you're a heavy favorite, but they can very easily just draw the nuts and curb stomp you into oblivion. Infect however I can't really say because I have yet to have a game in the last few months that were actually representative of the match up for one reason or another. Game such as ones where they have only 2 pump spells and find 9 threats on top of their deck or I mull to 4 twice in a row or I draw 3 paths, a snap, and a pair of GQs while wondering when I got so good at playing magic. Suffice to say my games against infect have been obscenely lopsided in either direction lately for some reason. Regardless, it has made me concerned enough that it's what made me want to SB halos initially with the fringe benefits being just an extra bonus rather than the goal.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Here's the main with my current SB and the one I'm wanting to run below it.
2 Snapcaster Mage
//Instant (23)
2 Condemn
4 Cryptic Command
2 Logic Knot
4 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
2 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Telling Time
3 Think Twice
1 White Sun's Zenith
//Planeswalker (1)
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
//Land (26)
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
2 Prairie Stream
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dispel
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Celestial Purge
1 Negate
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Condemn
2 Stony Silence
And this is the SB I'd run in an ideal world.
I don't care what anybody says, AV is still a very powerful card that is 100% playable in control in modern. It feels amazing being able to hold up interaction without having to choose between removal and a draw spell. Don't mind the telling time, I'm trying them out for now just as some filtering and selection in game 1 when half of my deck may or may not be blank.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I feel that we don't need to splash green now that anguished unmaking is a card, as teachings can end the game before we start to lose to topdecks.
Past that, I don't think dimir charm or wall of omens are ideal.
Plumeveil feels much better if its even an effect you want at all.
Also, elesh norn is an awful lot better than crovax. She doesn't protect herself as well, but the curve of teachings > teferi > teachings flashbacked > eleshnorn is powerful (and with AV you're likely to hit land drops), and its more or less a 1 card combo that crushes a lot of decks, all at instant speed.
Still working on testing AV in the regular esper control shell, just finished with finals so I should have a lot more time to do so.
On a different note, I played gifts not too long ago.
I played this:
2 Unburial Rites
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Grave Titan
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Remand
4 Path to Exile
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Esper Charm
1 Epiphany at the Drownyard
2 Cryptic Command
2 Logic Knot
3 Spell Snare
1 Dispel
1 Pact of Negation
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Consume the Meek
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Dispel
2 Stony Silence
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Flashfreeze
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Runed Halo
1 Day of Judgment
Went a fairly disappointing 2-2, but I think it was more luck/matchup based than any issues with the decklist, which I was quite happy with.
My play that day was definitely below where it should be, but again, the deck played well.
I thought about careful consideration instead of the epiphany, but it worked quite well.
Dimir charm was also a thought, but I do not own any, and just went without. In a more aggressive meta, I might play it here.
I'd love to work on an AV shell as well, so if you have anything in mind at the moment, please let me know!
WUBR [url=http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/06-04-17-ad-nauseam/]Ad Nauseam WUBR
Computer battery is low and I just got to the shop for a day of testing, but here's the list, I'll post the full report later.
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x island
2x plains
1x swamp
3x hallowed fountain
2x watery grave
2x drowned catacomb
2x Vault of the Archangel
3x Negate
4x Spell Snare
2x Cryptic Command
4x Supreme Verdict
4x Path To Exile
3x Runed Halo
4x Think Twice
4x Esper Charm
2x Sphinx's Revelation
3x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Detention Sphere
1x Negate
1x Runed Halo
1x Wrath of God
1x White Sun's Zenith
3x Stony Silence
2x Rest in Peace
Testing the same list again today.
Nice pulls man, that's so much value!
How was Bitterblossom? Did Halo do a lot of work? I'd also be interested in hearing what you faced.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
4x Celestial Collonade
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Fortress
4x Flooded Strand
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Steam Vents
1x Sacred Foundry
3x Island
2x Plains
1x Mountain
Wincons (2)
1x White Sun's Zenith
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2x Spell Snare
2x Remand
2x Logic Knot
3x Cryptic Command
Removal (11)
4x Path to Exile
4x Lighting Bolt
3x Supreme Verdict
Card Advantage (12)
3x Ancestral Vision
4x Think Twice
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Dispel
1x Wear // Tear
2x Runed Halo
1x Celestial Purge
2x Counterflux
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Anger of the Gods
3x Vendilion Clique
3x Leyline of Sanctity
G1: Your typical grind into Zenith game. A t2 Bob was Ambush Vipered by a Snappy after he played a tapped land and swings in. Another Bob gets bolted (thanks for the topdeck, deck!). From that point on, it was about carefully maintaining a safe board though 2 Lingering Souls w/ flashback over the course of a few turns. An AV was involved, and at the critical point in the game after he was gassed out, I topdecked a Zentih for 3 and drew it again the next turn. He scooped.
G2 I lead with T0 Leyline into a T1 suspend AV. He reveals his hand of 2x Thoughtseize, 1x Liliana, 2x Lands, 1x Siege Rhino and scoops.
2-0, 1-0 overall
G1: I kept a hand with no counters (3x lands, path, AV, Think Twice; I think), and he T3 Karns me. I eot Bolt it and wind Pathing a Wurmcoil, but now I'm stuck on 3 lands until AV pops and finally draws me my 4th land. At the same time, he finds and plays an Ulamog off of an Ancient Stirrings and puts me on two lands (I snap-path it in rsp). I brick on land again, and he topdecks Karn. I'm on one land. Scoop.
G2: I keep a fine opener, stop him from assembling Tron quickly with a counter into a GQ, Counterflux a threat, and draw-step clique away the last threat in his next turn. Things are looking good! He draws Pyroclasm off of Clique. Ok. I keep playing magic, he's topdecking lands, I counter threats... Emrakul. I can't do any-damn-thing about it, so I die. Frustrating.
0-2, 1-1 Overall
I knew the guy always played Infect, so I was pumped to playa against him -- I love Infect matches, and I always configure my deck to have the edge in them -- hence why I played Bolt instead of Helix last night.
G1: I keep a 4 land, Think Twice, AV, Path hand, and draw into Bolts/Paths/Snaps for days. He had no chance, xD.
G2: I keep a shifty 2x GQ, Collonade, Path, Halo, Snap Clique hand because I know it has the tools I need. I topdeck 2 lands in a row, and I'm doing great -- tight play, until I have lethal on board w/ my Clique and a Colonnnade ready for next turn -- I'm at 6 life tho. He swing with Noble Heirarch, I declare no block with removal at the ready, and then he casts... Stonewood Invocation for exactsies. At this point I'm super tilted, because I was actually the one who told him about the card after seeing it in a Legacy Infect v. Miracles match where it was an absolute blowout. He obviously agreed. Anyways, I couldn't do anything and I scoop them up. =\
G3: I'm able to get myself off tilt and prepare for the last game. I get a decent, but not crazy hand, and we grind for a while. He's got an empty board except for a Hierarch (I'm at a health life total), so I Colonnade him. During his turn, he Gitaxian Probes me to see I have nothing to counter his... Wild Defiance. Great, now my Bolts are blank. He swings one and passes. Well, I had no choice but to Runed Halo naming Hierarch, since if he goes for it during his turn with the right support, I'm just dead (my hand had Bolt, Think Twice, Spell Snare, lands). Multiple turns later, and much "what if" planning later, he topdecks multiple Inkmoths in a row, and is able to grind me out with multiple exalted triggers, a Pendelhaven, and the threat of Wild Defiance going nuts -- even through a Clique, a GQ, a path, and Dispel for spells, Spell Snare for Blighted Agent. =\
1-2, 1-2 overall
We play a very long game one, as he gets unluicky and topdecks all lands and ways to search for lands. I'm able to Collonade his nearly-ulting Ajani Vengeant away, and fade one more turn -- counter shields are back up, I'm cruising forward with draw spells on his eot and suspended AV's. I'm able to get through multiple O-Stones and Kozilek's Returns while countering other threatts, and an arbitrarily large Zenith ends it. Game one left 17 mins on the clock, and he'd exiled all 4 of my Colonnades with Karn/Ulamog when I won that game.
G2: I keep a land light hand, and get a handful of Counterflux and Cryptic, with a draw-step Clique at the ready for next turn. He casts Crumble to Dust on my 3rd land (Steam Vents), I fade a land, but have a AV with one counter left. I pass, he Crumbles my Hallowed Fountain. Ugh. I cast AV and and draw 2 lands, Logic Knot, and something else. I bridge back into 3 and 4 mana without a hitch, and he never gets through my wall of 2x Counterflux 3x Cryptic. He dies to Elspeth with almost nothing in hand.
2-0, 2-2 overall
Overall, I really like the list. I think switching the Angers for Stony Silences in the board is warranted. Despite the above match against Infect, both me and my opponent agreed that I'm very favored in the matchup -- he can't win unless he shoves some kind of bomb into the equation, like Wild Defiance or Stonewood Invocation. I really like the deck, and I think it has just as much potential as Esper. That being said, I feel like I've been away from Esper for a little too long -- so I may switch back to Esper for a little while.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Edit: To clarify, I've only been posting with decks I feel could be as good as Esper or variations on the base of the deck to see if any other options help the deck to perform better.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
As a frequent and quality contributor to this forum, I do not mind it at all. In fact, I frequently do the same. As long as the decks are in the spirit of draw go, or the spirit of true control, I feel like we can learn something from those lists and results as long as we eventually drift back on track. Nothing exists in a vaccuum. My bitterblossom tech was inspired by rememebering my old caw blade days.
That being said however, I've been testing all day and I've since cut the blossoms in favor of somewhere between the UW list posted earlier and traditional draw-go esper. This is one I'm really happy about.
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Island
2x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Hallowed Fountain
2x Watery Grave
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Drowned Catacomb
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x White Sun's Zenith
2x Negate
4x Spell Snare
4x Cryptic Command
2x Runed Halo
4x Path to Exile
4x Supreme Verdict
4x Think Twice
4x Esper Charm
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Runed Halo
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Hurkyl's Recall
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Negate
1x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Grave Titan
I like Hurkyl's recall seeing as it can fend off affinity nut draws, but also allow us to construct an alpha strike against Lantern control regardless of how many Ensnaring Brides they have. Those spots could also be Fracturing Gust is you have a lot of Boggles, but even then, 4 Runed Halo in the 75 is AMAZING. 2/2 split between main and board feels about right.
I think this 75 is a prime example of keeping the spirit of the original list in mind while also making sensible tweaks to account for the metagame. The greatest crime would be to actually dogmatically adhere to the original sideboard. Any list you derive inspiration from should have a dramatically revised sideboard, whether you're piloting Esper Control, or Burn, or anything. The metagame from points in the past has little or no relation to what we face today.
Permanent answers like Negate replace remands main, and post board we can pivot to a full 4 of those negates, which helps protect our leylines against burn, and helps totally hose out decks like living end that have a rough time fighting countermagic.
The Oblivion Rings are not detention spheres, because we want hate for blood moon in addition to the actual effect.
2x Darkslick Shores
1x Academy Ruins
4x Flooded Strand
1x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Plains
6x Island
2x Swamp
2x Polluted Delta
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Watery Grave
1x Shambling Vent
Utility
1x Cryptic Command
2x Esper Charm
3x Gifts Ungiven
4x Serum Visions
1x Sphinx's Revelation
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize
Reanimation Package
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Unburial Rites
Boardwipes
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Wrath of God
Spot Removal
4x Path to Exile
3x Disfigure
1x Doom Blade
Creatures
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Thing in the Ice
2x Cryptic Command
1x Dispel
1x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Lingering Souls
1x Negate
1x Ojutai's Command
2x Punish Ignorance
1x Slaughter Pact
3x Spell Snare
1x Stony Silence
I can understand that this provides convenient evidence to show how Esper Draw-Go compares to other draw-go and tap-out lists. However, those looking for evidence on the topic can easily compare the results from the dedicated threads for those archetypes. I am not a moderator and barely a contributor to this thread, but as a purist i think that Esper Draw-go contributors within this forum could be a little more focused. If you are testing other decks you will probably get more relevant feedback by posting to those threads.
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)
The main benefit of posting other variants here helps further the discussion on how to develop Esper Draw-Go. For too long, the archetype remained stagnant, and it shows in the results. Especially now in a format where a lot of common matchups are unfavorable, new tech is needed, hence the experimentations with other archetypes.
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
Amalek himself has condoned these sort of discussions and that guy legitimately actually wrote the whole primer. Not trying to appeal to authority here, just saying.
If you feel like there is too much non-esper draw go happening here and you don't "get it", please feel free to start talking about esper draw go. Contribute your lists and ideas and ask for feedback, we will respond to you. Anything other than whining.
It seems that the thread has evolved into a discussion of the UW/x Draw-Go shell instead of the named Esper Draw-Go. The amount of variation in the lists and lack of focus is detrimental to the thread's credibility.
The current thread discussion is far more generic than I would expect from the title and primer's opening page.
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)