how else do you propose we reliably and consistently beat burn, a popular tier 1 deck, without warping our sideboard full of very narrow cards?
Moving the Runed Halos back to the main could be a good start; Halo protects the ground and enables you utilize hard counters on the burn. Burn also hates discard; Could run some IoK's and be more aggressive about Esper Charming them.
how else do you propose we reliably and consistently beat burn, a popular tier 1 deck, without warping our sideboard full of very narrow cards?
Moving the Runed Halos back to the main could be a good start; Halo protects the ground and enables you utilize hard counters on the burn. Burn also hates discard; Could run some IoK's and be more aggressive about Esper Charming them.
Counter magic is actually better against burn than filling your deck with bad top decks in the match up. It only works in midrange because you are beating in the face with a 4/5 while discarding their stuff and even then it is not good (burn beats bgx devks)
On a brighter note, I've playtested against Tron w/o Eye of Ugin only a little bit now, but it seems very winnable -- if not favorable depending on the knowledge of the pilots. Not sure if I know the best lines against them anymore tho, priorities seem to have shifted. Ulamog doesn't even matter anymore, since they really aren't going to be chaining them together like before and have to have all 10 mana for them. Karn is beatable, escpecially if they try to threaten an Ult by continuously plussing -- I think the right line for them is to grind out our lands by minus on land-->plus-->minus-->plus. Sanctum of Ugin is annoying, but it isn't nearly the same value engine we had to worry about before -- leaving in 4 Paths and seeing one or two over the early- to mid-game to hit the naturally drawn Ulamogs and Wurmcoils isn't that hard, and you can sit back on countermagic for everything else. Esper Charm to empty their hand actually buys a lot of time now, as they can't just go "Oops, I drew map -> Eye of Ugin. lol" They actually have to topdeck threats, which you can sometimes just ignore and eot Rev for waaay too much to get ahead and ultimately have all of the answers. Hell, even tempoing them down with a lone Snapcaster on t2 is much easier (for when they have Relic of Progenitus out), because they stumble a little more w/o Eye to give them exactly what they need to punch through our defenses. I could see Clique doing miles of work against the weaker versions.
As a note, you can actually win against Emrakul now by cryptic-tapping it on their 2nd turn, and untapping with a Verdict in hand. Usually, they have no way of getting it back from their deck unless they play multiple Sanctums or just naturally draw it. It's relevant enough that I'm starting to think they shouldn't run Emrakul anymore.
On a brighter note, I've playtested against Tron w/o Eye of Ugin only a little bit now, but it seems very winnable -- if not favorable depending on the knowledge of the pilots. Not sure if I know the best lines against them anymore tho, priorities seem to have shifted. Ulamog doesn't even matter anymore, since they really aren't going to be chaining them together like before and have to have all 10 mana for them. Karn is beatable, escpecially if they try to threaten an Ult by continuously plussing -- I think the right line for them is to grind out our lands by minus on land-->plus-->minus-->plus. Sanctum of Ugin is annoying, but it isn't nearly the same value engine we had to worry about before -- leaving in 4 Paths and seeing one or two over the early- to mid-game to hit the naturally drawn Ulamogs and Wurmcoils isn't that hard, and you can sit back on countermagic for everything else. Esper Charm to empty their hand actually buys a lot of time now, as they can't just go "Oops, I drew map -> Eye of Ugin. lol" They actually have to topdeck threats, which you can sometimes just ignore and eot Rev for waaay too much to get ahead and ultimately have all of the answers. Hell, even tempoing them down with a lone Snapcaster on t2 is much easier (for when they have Relic of Progenitus out), because they stumble a little more w/o Eye to give them exactly what they need to punch through our defenses. I could see Clique doing miles of work against the weaker versions.
As a note, you can actually win against Emrakul now by cryptic-tapping it on their 2nd turn, and untapping with a Verdict in hand. Usually, they have no way of getting it back from their deck unless they play multiple Sanctums or just naturally draw it. It's relevant enough that I'm starting to think they shouldn't run Emrakul anymore.
You can pretty much just esper charm and cryptic tron to death if you avoid turn 3 karn or turn 4 Newlamog. The match actually felt easy win eye was not in the equation especially with discard/clique in the board
Counter magic is actually better against burn than filling your deck with bad top decks in the match up. It only works in midrange because you are beating in the face with a 4/5 while discarding their stuff and even then it is not good (burn beats bgx devks)
I played a lot of burn before this, and from my personal experience, discard sucks because it coerces the burn player into overextending. Early on, the three damage (or "more," if you take a creature) you get out of their hand from IoK has to come back from somewhere, and burn doesn't draw enough cards to guarantee it'll be replaced.
Mid-to-lategame, Burn is sandbagging spells at your EoT or trying to build a critical mass of spells to fight through countermagic; discard attacks that plan of action that by forcing a response out of burn (which, if you have discard AND countermagic, means you have a response for that).
It's the coordination of discard and counters that pulls you ahead, not just replacing Spell Snare with IoK or jamming a bunch of Thoughtsiezes in.
What if we go about this from the other perspective and do some testing on XMage and one of us pilots a Burn deck and the other pilots Draw-Go? Sun Tzu's know thy enemy and all that.
I've played other decklists (Abzan, Zooicide, etc.) on XMage to get a better grasp of how the deck works so that as a control player I can find the best spots to mess with it. Sometimes seeing the game from the other perspective can give you insight into what the other deck would really hate to see in the matchup.
What if we go about this from the other perspective and do some testing on XMage and one of us pilots a Burn deck and the other pilots Draw-Go? Sun Tzu's know thy enemy and all that.
I've played other decklists (Abzan, Zooicide, etc.) on XMage to get a better grasp of how the deck works so that as a control player I can find the best spots to mess with it. Sometimes seeing the game from the other perspective can give you insight into what the other deck would really hate to see in the matchup.
Yeah. Do that.
I've played 4 matches today already against burn with wafo 75 and lost every single game.
Why? Because of what amalek said. Grind then down with esper charms, we both topdeck for a few turns, boom, there's the bolt.
I'm starting to think everyone who hates on leyline is either extremely lucky,or never ever gets paired up versus burn
Who cares about turn zero, I would gladly cast that effect on t10 if it keeps me alive
To beat burn you need a way to shut the door on them or kill them. Just talking about answers against a deck that has inevitability like burn does will not work. Burn will always top deck more burn than you have cards that can interact with it. If you really want yo beat burn you have to have some kind of proactive element like the thopter engine but at that point you are better off being uw with thirst for knowledge instead of esper charm.
As esper the best way would be to load up on cheap interaction to comfortably land a life linker on turn 5 with no fear of dying.
Ooh, I forgot about him. Yeah, he might actually be the best anti-burn card. Doesn't die to Destructive Rev/Wear Tear, can't be bolted out, and gains life. The only thing that it can't do is block a Swiftspear profitably, which is certainly tolerable.
We would probably want to run 4 though, and which point we may as well just run 4 leyline, dramatically increase our chances of turn zeroing it, and go from there. We have paths, wreaths and spell snares to clean the rest of the problem stuff up, we just need to not die to topdecked lava spikes If they manage to beat us to death with their 3 different creatures past an array of path to exiles and verdicts, then we deserve it
4 leyline
2 teferi
1 dispel
1 negate
2 night of souls betrayal
1 wrath of God
2 runed halo
1 big elspeth
1 sorin, grim nemesis
Gives us a shut out against burn, the curse effects we want vs infect affinity and thopter, halos for extra protection or creature "removal" Big elspeth and sorin as trump cards vs gb/x and sorin has the added bonus of winning underneath ensnaring bridge vs lantern / tezz.
We would probably want to run 4 though, and which point we may as well just run 4 leyline, dramatically increase our chances of turn zeroing it, and go from there. We have paths, wreaths and spell snares to clean the rest of the problem stuff up, we just need to not die to topdecked lava spikes If they manage to beat us to death with their 3 different creatures past an array of path to exiles and verdicts, then we deserve it
This brings up an interesting point that I've been meaning to discuss -- most people seem to advocate siding out Wraths against Burn (I think), but I don't think that's right, after dying to swarms a of creatures and not enough removal on multiple occasions.
With Leylines and wraths present, perhaps Cryptics, WSZ, 1-2 ECharm (since mind rotting is actively bad with Leyline blanking their draws) all come out.
I've played 4 matches today already against burn with wafo 75 and lost every single game.
Why? Because of what amalek said. Grind then down with esper charms, we both topdeck for a few turns, boom, there's the bolt.
I'm starting to think everyone who hates on leyline is either extremely lucky,or never ever gets paired up versus burn
Who cares about turn zero, I would gladly cast that effect on t10 if it keeps me alive
I play on MODO, so about 1 in 5 matches is Naya Burn. I'd say I win half the time, with most games being lopsided one way or the other. Their good draws beat our good draws, but the deck is inconsistent and needs to not draw lands to finish in time. I just played a match yesterday, where the Burn player had 3 lands in play on turn 8, and killed me with exact damage because his last two cards were Bolts. Mind you, one of his lands came from my Path to Exile. I count the density of lands the Burn player draws after each game to measure how "ridiculous" their draw was, as they can draw as many as 4 or 5 extra cards in this manner. In the first 8 turns for example, you'd expect the guy to draw about 4-5 lands out of 15 cards, not 2.
The games I do win involve clocking them with 1 of 3 Vendilion Cliques, or lucking out and actually drawing 1 of 2 Baneslayers. Clique will normally kill a Burn player by turn 6 or so, if you can activate a Colonnade. They normally deal themselves the first 8-12 damage.
This brings up an interesting point that I've been meaning to discuss -- most people seem to advocate siding out Wraths against Burn (I think), but I don't think that's right, after dying to swarms a of creatures and not enough removal on multiple occasions.
With Leylines and wraths present, perhaps Cryptics, WSZ, 1-2 ECharm (since mind rotting is actively bad with Leyline blanking their draws) all come out.
But if your opponent has multiple creatures on board by your tun 4, you're probably at 7 or less life and lost that game a long time ago.
I suppose if you actually have a Leyline out you've blanked half of of their draws, so maybe you're not destined to die to their next three draw steps...
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Moving the Runed Halos back to the main could be a good start; Halo protects the ground and enables you utilize hard counters on the burn. Burn also hates discard; Could run some IoK's and be more aggressive about Esper Charming them.
Currently trying to discover the quickest way to get the opponent from 20 to 0.
Counter magic is actually better against burn than filling your deck with bad top decks in the match up. It only works in midrange because you are beating in the face with a 4/5 while discarding their stuff and even then it is not good (burn beats bgx devks)
As a note, you can actually win against Emrakul now by cryptic-tapping it on their 2nd turn, and untapping with a Verdict in hand. Usually, they have no way of getting it back from their deck unless they play multiple Sanctums or just naturally draw it. It's relevant enough that I'm starting to think they shouldn't run Emrakul anymore.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
You can pretty much just esper charm and cryptic tron to death if you avoid turn 3 karn or turn 4 Newlamog. The match actually felt easy win eye was not in the equation especially with discard/clique in the board
I played a lot of burn before this, and from my personal experience, discard sucks because it coerces the burn player into overextending. Early on, the three damage (or "more," if you take a creature) you get out of their hand from IoK has to come back from somewhere, and burn doesn't draw enough cards to guarantee it'll be replaced.
Mid-to-lategame, Burn is sandbagging spells at your EoT or trying to build a critical mass of spells to fight through countermagic; discard attacks that plan of action that by forcing a response out of burn (which, if you have discard AND countermagic, means you have a response for that).
It's the coordination of discard and counters that pulls you ahead, not just replacing Spell Snare with IoK or jamming a bunch of Thoughtsiezes in.
Currently trying to discover the quickest way to get the opponent from 20 to 0.
I've played other decklists (Abzan, Zooicide, etc.) on XMage to get a better grasp of how the deck works so that as a control player I can find the best spots to mess with it. Sometimes seeing the game from the other perspective can give you insight into what the other deck would really hate to see in the matchup.
Yeah. Do that.
I've played 4 matches today already against burn with wafo 75 and lost every single game.
Why? Because of what amalek said. Grind then down with esper charms, we both topdeck for a few turns, boom, there's the bolt.
I'm starting to think everyone who hates on leyline is either extremely lucky,or never ever gets paired up versus burn
Who cares about turn zero, I would gladly cast that effect on t10 if it keeps me alive
Currently trying to discover the quickest way to get the opponent from 20 to 0.
4x Celestial Colonnade
3x Cavern of Souls
1x Glacial Fortress
1 Drowned Catacomb
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Hallowed Fountain
2x Watery Grave
1x Godless Shrine
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Vendilion Clique
2x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2x Snapcastter Mage
Counters (12)
4x Spell Snare
3x Remand
2x Logic Knkot
3x Cryptic Command
Removal (4)
4x Path to Exile
Card Advantage (10)
4x Think Twice
4x Esper Charm
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Condemn
2x Dispel
1x Negate
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
1x Anguished Unmaking
1x Timely Reinforcenments
1x White Sun's Zenith
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Baneslayer Angel
It admittedly skimps on removal, but it's supposed to be a little tempo-ey.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
As esper the best way would be to load up on cheap interaction to comfortably land a life linker on turn 5 with no fear of dying.
...so, discard. Yes. Glad we agree.
Currently trying to discover the quickest way to get the opponent from 20 to 0.
Ooh, I forgot about him. Yeah, he might actually be the best anti-burn card. Doesn't die to Destructive Rev/Wear Tear, can't be bolted out, and gains life. The only thing that it can't do is block a Swiftspear profitably, which is certainly tolerable.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
4 leyline
2 teferi
1 dispel
1 negate
2 night of souls betrayal
1 wrath of God
2 runed halo
1 big elspeth
1 sorin, grim nemesis
Gives us a shut out against burn, the curse effects we want vs infect affinity and thopter, halos for extra protection or creature "removal" Big elspeth and sorin as trump cards vs gb/x and sorin has the added bonus of winning underneath ensnaring bridge vs lantern / tezz.
This brings up an interesting point that I've been meaning to discuss -- most people seem to advocate siding out Wraths against Burn (I think), but I don't think that's right, after dying to swarms a of creatures and not enough removal on multiple occasions.
With Leylines and wraths present, perhaps Cryptics, WSZ, 1-2 ECharm (since mind rotting is actively bad with Leyline blanking their draws) all come out.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I play on MODO, so about 1 in 5 matches is Naya Burn. I'd say I win half the time, with most games being lopsided one way or the other. Their good draws beat our good draws, but the deck is inconsistent and needs to not draw lands to finish in time. I just played a match yesterday, where the Burn player had 3 lands in play on turn 8, and killed me with exact damage because his last two cards were Bolts. Mind you, one of his lands came from my Path to Exile. I count the density of lands the Burn player draws after each game to measure how "ridiculous" their draw was, as they can draw as many as 4 or 5 extra cards in this manner. In the first 8 turns for example, you'd expect the guy to draw about 4-5 lands out of 15 cards, not 2.
The games I do win involve clocking them with 1 of 3 Vendilion Cliques, or lucking out and actually drawing 1 of 2 Baneslayers. Clique will normally kill a Burn player by turn 6 or so, if you can activate a Colonnade. They normally deal themselves the first 8-12 damage.
But if your opponent has multiple creatures on board by your tun 4, you're probably at 7 or less life and lost that game a long time ago.
I suppose if you actually have a Leyline out you've blanked half of of their draws, so maybe you're not destined to die to their next three draw steps...