Hey guys, I've been playing UWR Control for the past few weeks and I've been loving it but I've been thinking about coming back to esper for a bit to see how it runs. Here is a sample list I just drafted, please help give me feedback for it:
Overall the sideboard is obviously something that would be adjusted on week to week basis based on the meta but this is a rough draft. Also I'm trying to find room for a main deck Quicken for instant speed sweepers and potentially instant speed Unburial Rites but I'm not sure what I should cut, also main deck hand disruption like TS or IoK seems like a good addition but I still can't decide what I should cut.
In any event please give feedback to let me know if I'm on the right track, the goal of the deck is to be able to gifts for basically anything.
Hey guys, I've been playing UWR Control for the past few weeks and I've been loving it but I've been thinking about coming back to esper for a bit to see how it runs. Here is a sample list I just drafted, please help give me feedback for it:
Overall the sideboard is obviously something that would be adjusted on week to week basis based on the meta but this is a rough draft. Also I'm trying to find room for a main deck Quicken for instant speed sweepers and potentially instant speed Unburial Rites but I'm not sure what I should cut, also main deck hand disruption like TS or IoK seems like a good addition but I still can't decide what I should cut.
In any event please give feedback to let me know if I'm on the right track, the goal of the deck is to be able to gifts for basically anything.
Rule #1 of modern: Don't play bad cards to enable other bad cards, unless doing so immediately wins the game
Rule #2 of modern: Your opponent will thoughtseize you on turn one.
-->Your deck is extremely vulnerable to a thoughtseize. I sampled 20 hands from this decklist and NONE of them did anything through a thoughtseize. 3 esper charm is not sufficient to gas back up from any attrition deck, and no attrition deck will let you live to cast iona or elesh norn for full face value, nor will your tasigur ever stick on the board.
Rule #3 of modern: Your opponent is doing something unfair
-->Nothing really bad to say about that--mana leak and spot removal do a good job of saving the day here.
Rule #4 of modern: Your opponent can and will disrupt your gameplan.
-->This is different from rule #2; what rule #4 says is that your opponent will interact with your gameplan directly. To some extent, the problem here is the same problem as with rule #2--this decklist is pretty all-in on gifts. You've got six cards in the deck purely to go with your gifts, but you're only running two gifts, and no way to bin combo pieces that you draw into naturally. You will be an inconsistent pile much of the time, and your opponents are going to counter the gifts or they're going to thoughtseize it away, and you won't find another in time to get your engines online. The rest of the time (when you don't draw a gifts at all), you're playing an inconsistent pile of 1-of and 2-of removal spells and random expensive limited bomb-mythics, and your opponent is casting bolts, tarmogoyfs, and liliana of the veil.
Gifts ungiven is an excellent and powerful card. I've top 8'd multiple extended PTQ's in the past with it. It suffers from the same problem as mystical teachings--the more you build around it, the worse the card gets.
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Speaking of gifts ungiven, a lot of lists are playing snow covered lands in order to gifts for 2 islands or 2 plains. Is there really a situation where you would want to gifts for basic land? i guess you could in response to blood moon but even then you wouldn't be able to get exactly the color you want. Since the fact that seeing snow covered and regular land side by side pretty much tells your opponent that you are on gifts, i was wondering if there was really any use for it
So, I keep feeling really odd about the BGx matchup -- I always seem to lose 1-2 and its supposed to be a good matchup? What are the biggest mistakes to avoid making in that matchup? How do you guys deal with manlands against them?
I've been in a slump with Esper, going 2-2 in each of my last 3 SNM's and losing even against favorable matchups like Affinity. I just can't seem to draw what I need. I don't respect trying to blame variance and I always feel like I could be doing something better. It's got me a little down. =/
So, I keep feeling really odd about the BGx matchup -- I always seem to lose 1-2 and its supposed to be a good matchup? What are the biggest mistakes to avoid making in that matchup? How do you guys deal with manlands against them?
I've been in a slump with Esper, going 2-2 in each of my last 3 SNM's and losing even against favorable matchups like Affinity. I just can't seem to draw what I need. I don't respect trying to blame variance and I always feel like I could be doing something better. It's got me a little down. =/
Try out the gifts package. It's a lot more consistent and there are "oops I win" draws while still remaining a control deck. Even in our worst matchups like burn I find myself stealing so many game ones off of a turn 4/5 Iona naming red, or an Elesh Norn against the tribal decks being lights out. You can play the grindy game against more controlling decks with thopter sword + loam as well.
I've been feeling the same playing esper draw-go generally. Like my deck is just treating me poorly, and drawing the wrong half happens so often off 26-27 lands + 10 card draw spells. Working sooo hard for every win compared to gifts made me switch soo fast (for now).
So if I'm looking to get some "oops I win" moments from gifts but don't want to lean too heavily on gifts As a crutch, what list should I start with? I still want to be draw go, no Liliana crap, and no thopter foundry either.
Working sooo hard for every win compared to gifts made me switch soo fast (for now).
I don't mind working hard for the win -- that's why I even play Esper. I just don't like not winning. #SpikeProblems
I've been not-winning enough recently that now I just want it to be easy and reassure myself that it actually can happen. I've never gone better than 3-1 with Esper other than once (I don't mind, because 3-1 pays for the next event and a little extra to pick up more pieces for Esper).
Edit: That said, I still think that Esper's the most competitive draw go deck.
So if I'm looking to get some "oops I win" moments from gifts but don't want to lean too heavily on gifts As a crutch, what list should I start with? I still want to be draw go, no Liliana crap, and no thopter foundry either.
Steer me. I'll test the daylights out of it
Same. I don't like the build-around-me style, which is why I don't really bother with gifts.
So if I'm looking to get some "oops I win" moments from gifts but don't want to lean too heavily on gifts As a crutch, what list should I start with? I still want to be draw go, no Liliana crap, and no thopter foundry either.
Steer me. I'll test the daylights out of it
As a UW Gifts player, I second this request. It would be great if someone could show me how to fit Gifts into Esper without weakening either the combo or the control shell too much, but I am pretty sure that it doesn't easily work.
So if I'm looking to get some "oops I win" moments from gifts but don't want to lean too heavily on gifts As a crutch, what list should I start with? I still want to be draw go, no Liliana crap, and no thopter foundry either.
Steer me. I'll test the daylights out of it
As a UW Gifts player, I second this request. It would be great if someone could show me how to fit Gifts into Esper without weakening either the combo or the control shell too much, but I am pretty sure that it doesn't easily work.
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This is the main deck i'm trying right now. The thopter combo actualy uses very little space. It's more of a normal UW control deck but with a better attrition plan. It still plays out like a control deck. The list is probably not optimal but i like the feel of it right now. I like to have some Elspeth SC, Gideon and Teferi in the side to dodge the GY hate when needed.
Edit: the 2nd detention sphere should probably be oblivion ring
-2x Remand, -1x Elspeth, -1x White Sun's Zenith, --> +1x U Rites, +1x Iona (for burn matches and mono-colored decks), +1x Elesh Norn (for creature decks, Affinity/Infect, Tribal, etc.), +1x Grave Titan (for BGx and Control matchups)
-1x Sphinxx's Rev, -1x Cryptic Command, -1x Polluted Delta --> +3x Gifts (I can gifts for Rev in a value package, Cryptic competes for the 4 spot, and with only 1 x-spells the 26th land isn't necessary)
-1x Runed Halo, -1x Supreme Verdict --> +1x Anguished Unmaking (replacing Halo was already one of my considerations, and this just makes Gifts a little better without running sub-optimal cards), +1x Wrath of God (again, I was already considering this change, and it pushes Gifts a little w/o losing anything.
-1x Ghost Quarter, -1x Glacial Fortress --> +1x Tec Edge (a split seems nice in this deck, which is already resilient to Infect/Affinity if you can resolve a URites on an Elesh), +1x Creeping Tar Pit (for Gifts, I'm not too concerned about the color issues with the set of Colonnades still intact)
Feels more and more like everyone in here has abandoned the "mission for vision"
@Stokpile as it seems like you keep advocating the card, i would like to hear your take on it in an Esper shell.
I havent gotten to test it a lot yet, but i have also just jammed it into my "old" Esper draw go, and as someone mentioned, the "Esper visions" deck might need to be built in a completely different way, than Wafo-Tapa Esper (AKA Draw-go)
What would you suggest if you were to build a Esper deck with visions?
the traditional esper mana cruve is probably not best suited to use ancestral vision at it's best. Jeskai control and grixis midrange/control are probably better unless you build a discard heavy version of esper. But then the problem is that your visions will draw you a bunch of late game discard
So if I'm looking to get some "oops I win" moments from gifts but don't want to lean too heavily on gifts As a crutch, what list should I start with? I still want to be draw go, no Liliana crap, and no thopter foundry either.
Steer me. I'll test the daylights out of it
As a UW Gifts player, I second this request. It would be great if someone could show me how to fit Gifts into Esper without weakening either the combo or the control shell too much, but I am pretty sure that it doesn't easily work.
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This is the main deck i'm trying right now. The thopter combo actualy uses very little space. It's more of a normal UW control deck but with a better attrition plan. It still plays out like a control deck. The list is probably not optimal but i like the feel of it right now. I like to have some Elspeth SC, Gideon and Teferi in the side to dodge the GY hate when needed.
Edit: the 2nd detention sphere should probably be oblivion ring
Does the thopter combo actually help? I can't imagine it being significantly more useful against grindy decks than reanimating Iona.
-2x Remand, -1x Elspeth, -1x White Sun's Zenith, --> +1x U Rites, +1x Iona (for burn matches and mono-colored decks), +1x Elesh Norn (for creature decks, Affinity/Infect, Tribal, etc.), +1x Grave Titan (for BGx and Control matchups)
-1x Sphinxx's Rev, -1x Cryptic Command, -1x Polluted Delta --> +3x Gifts (I can gifts for Rev in a value package, Cryptic competes for the 4 spot, and with only 1 x-spells the 26th land isn't necessary)
-1x Runed Halo, -1x Supreme Verdict --> +1x Anguished Unmaking (replacing Halo was already one of my considerations, and this just makes Gifts a little better without running sub-optimal cards), +1x Wrath of God (again, I was already considering this change, and it pushes Gifts a little w/o losing anything.
-1x Ghost Quarter, -1x Glacial Fortress --> +1x Tec Edge (a split seems nice in this deck, which is already resilient to Infect/Affinity if you can resolve a URites on an Elesh), +1x Creeping Tar Pit (for Gifts, I'm not too concerned about the color issues with the set of Colonnades still intact)
This looks good, but 1 of those Supreme Verdicts should be a Day of Judgment. It is only slightly worse and let's you search for a sweeper with Gifts Ungiven. Also, you need to run more Scapeshift-hate. In your 75 you only have 8 spells that stop Scapeshift (not counting Iona), and 2 of those can be bounced with Cryptic Command and another 3 are 4 mana counterspells that can easily be stopped by Scapeshift.
Feels more and more like everyone in here has abandoned the "mission for vision"
@Stokpile as it seems like you keep advocating the card, i would like to hear your take on it in an Esper shell.
I havent gotten to test it a lot yet, but i have also just jammed it into my "old" Esper draw go, and as someone mentioned, the "Esper visions" deck might need to be built in a completely different way, than Wafo-Tapa Esper (AKA Draw-go)
What would you suggest if you were to build a Esper deck with visions?
Well here's the problem with AV in esper. First take a look at this generic esper list. BTW, it's ancestral vision, not visionS. That's going to irk me as much as 'slot' removal and 'mainboard' I can see it now. Those are not real words!!1!111
So if you want to play 4 AV you need to make room, so what do you cut?
Path, verdict, or condemn? Cut any of these and you favorable matches become closer to a coin toss. Path and verdict are too important to cut and most of us here agree a 5th spot removal spell (be it condemn, halo, or D sphere) is mandatory so we can't cut them. If you cut a wrath then you'll need to add in another spot removal to make up for the power you lose against creature decks. Fair creature decks are our best match up so making that worse is entirely counterproductive. So we can't really cut any of the removal for AV.
What about counter magic? Well cryptic is a main stay and is our master card for modern so they can't go. Killing creatures is easy, for everything else there's cryptic command. Spell snare is amazing and 4 is likely correct so cutting them is absolutely wrong. Logic knot and remand are necessary for curve purposes, we NEED something to interact with spells on turn 3, especially if we're on the draw, and cheap ways to protect our late game revelations and WSZ. You MIGHT get away with pulling a remand, but then you're better off changing the other one to a negate and you're more soft to opposing AV. Being soft to "The New Hotness" is never where you want to be.
Win conditions? Well WSZ can't be cut under any circumstances and snapcaster mage is the best blue card in the format and waaay too versatile for us so neither of those can go. That leave you with maybe elle to cut. But again, she is such a massive 1 hit KO against every fair deck while still playing offense and defense so incredibly that I hesitate to remove her. But that being said she isn't actually necessary.
Ok, what about card draw? The most natural cut here to work in AV is esper charm, but if you do that then you're no longer esper so that's absolutely a nonstarter. But if you're absolutely desperate you can trim a charm for an AV, which I think is heresy and still incorrect, but it's a thing you can do. Revelation is our late game power and is the biggest payoff for being in a draw go deck, a rev for 4-5 wins the game all by itself so that can't go. Drawing a rev late game is the greatest feeling ever, announcing X=9 is one of the draws (wakka wakka!) to playing the deck and, like WSZ, is our inevitability that we 100% need as control players. Other than those we have think twice which is our early game velocity and on demand card draw. This card, as mopey as it may seem, is absolutely essential to the deck working properly so it can't go either. Going over 10 draw spells is overkill and going less so that you can 'make up for it' with vision isn't completely accurate. Even if you cast every draw spell in the deck and add up to the same total cards, that's not how the games work. With fewer total draw spells in the deck you'll (shockingly) draw them less often. A consequence of this, which many of us have stated previously, will lead you to some very awkward mid game situations where you need a draw spell and top deck an AV. That's not fun at all. But if you're absolutely desperate to work in AV you can trim a single think twice.
This leaves us with the following potential cuts for AV: 1 elspeth. 1 remand. 1 think twice.
Dude. Wait, what? There are only 3 cards that could be deemed acceptable cuts? That's right, there is not nearly as much flexibility in the esper list as one might imagine. Even if you take the two lists with the most differing numbers such as mine and amelk0's lists you'll see that they still follow the same general formula; X "removal" Y "counters" Z "draw" 2 snaps, 1 WSZ and 2 others which is usually elspeth and/or remand. Most of the lists that you'll find are nearly identical, they're just swapping Removal Spell B for Removal Spell C. So if you examine the list on the most basic level, trying to work in AV is really a question of "esper charm and black or ancestral vision and UW." If you want to be in a true control deck that's the decision you have to make because all of the other spells are essential to making your draw spells worthwhile. AV or Not is more a consideration of color options and versatility versus mana stability and power.
<Takes a deep breath>
Now that the wall o' text has been splattered across the screen, here's my official opinion on AV in esper. It just doesn't fit in. If you want to play control with AV go into any of the other color options that aren't grixis because that deck is still terrible. Plain UW, Bant, and UWR are all completely viable right beside Esper and it all comes down to what each splash color, or lack thereof, brings to the table and weather or not that's worth it.
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So the sideboard plan is obvious, but allow me to point out a few small intricacies to those of you who see this and go "oh, he's forcing gifts into the board"
Obviously the sideboard is pretty heavily reliant on gifts to beat certain decks, but it hits hard and does very powerful and game ending things. That's why we want 6 virtual copies of gifts (the two teachings find gifts). However in matchups where we don't want gifts, the teachings find the teferis, then flashback to find uncounterable (thanks teferi) Ionas. Vs Gb/x for example, we board in some fatties and unburial rites and laugh at Thoughtseize or liliana making us discard.
Vs burn we simply just Iona asap. Elesh or course gives us instant blowout wins against affinity and infect, while also doing really well against merfolk and collected company brews.
A big reason why I like this plan is because if they don't see gifts game one, and only see a couple think twices, nobody is going to expect us to be on POST BOARD gifts.
Also, there's room for nuance here, for example, versus a blue control mirror we don't have to use gifts at all we can just bring in teachings and teferis and card advantage them out of the game / counter anything with no contest. Vs something like Scapeshift we can teachings for teferi making their scapeshift easily counterable, OR we can gifts for iona on Blue, which would make them able to cast scapeshift but NOT able to defend it.
Finally, my favorite card choice, Hallowed Moonlight. There are other decks that will rely on the graveyard either pre- or post- board (or both) (co-co, griselbrand, opposing gifts decks, loam dredgevine, living end) Hallowed Moonlight stops these decks in their tracks, by basically making their "big turn" fizzle. It counters target unburial rites, target goryos vengeance, and target co-co (or infinite viscera seer persist loop) all while drawing us a card. Also has fringe applications against things like tooth and nail, kiki-restoration angel, and is a reasonable corner case play against a thopter /sword opponent who plans on making a million thopters this turn with his open mana (not ideal, just saying, you can)
I'm still not completely happy with it, but it still retains some draw-go elements, and it still has the "I win" button that gifts + teachings provides.
Currently, I'm not entirely sold on visions in this shell (I like it a lot in regular draw-go, but I'm considering playing more cantrips and answers instead in this shell. The shadow lands are currently for easier t1 visions. I wanted to play a maindeck dispel, but the 26th land has proven too important, especially since AV doesn't help us hit 4 lands, which is pretty critical.
I also kind of want a 5th man land too, but its not as critical. If I end up cutting the visions, I'll probably do something like -4 AV, +2 remand +1 dispel +1 cryptic -1 port town -1 choked estuary +1 tar pit +1 glacial fortress/drowned catacomb.
I used to play postboard gifts too, (when I played teachings main) and I'll give you my thoughts on it: Its good, the surprise is strong here, but devoting literally your entire sideboard to it is questionable. If you're playing 2 teachings, 2 gifts is fine. I played 1 rites, but 2 isn't bad. However, there are some decks where we want some dedicated hate, and you aren't running any. Stony Silence and Clique come to mind. Fracturing gust doesn't always cut it, and clique is teachable, and I think should be included. Unmaking is a strong teachings target as well.
Ok I believe my UW list is finally finished, sideboard and all. I can say in all honesty this is one of the best, if not the best, control list I've put together. It's squeaky clean, completely stable, the best mix of removal and permission in the current meta, has protection from blood moon, and essentially never loses to itself. Here's the current version, SB guide included!
There's only 1 thing that's somewhat temporary which is in the manabase. I cut the mystic gate for a plains which leaves me a blue source shy of where I'd prefer to be, but that's fine for now. Eventually it'll go back if blood moon and other nonbasic hate cards aren't so popular. I've tried port town, temple of enlightenment, and seachrome coast in the deck and I never liked any of them. They far too often messed up my curve or actually made me shock with a fountain so I could cast everything on time. The times where the other duals and various value lands like blighted cataract, faerie conclave, and scry lands showed up they were always just "nice." Never amazing or game breaking, but cute value.
The times where they were bad were actually crippling, the same goes for calciform pools. Nice and neat, but still too much of a liability for what I'm after with straight UW colors. So after playing with them a bunch the downside was significantly bigger than the potential gains so overall it simply isn't worth it. So the only other dual that I like in the mana base is the filter land with all of the other duals are their current numbers which are correct. The only time the buddy lands and battle lands were unfortunate were when I drew 3 colonnades in addition to them which is a rarity.
Elspeth is also staying in the list, but at some point I may end up cutting her for a deprive, negate, or another condemn in the main depending on how the format shakes out. I love her to pieces, but she might just be an obscene level of overkill. If that ends up being the case then some more early interaction would be desired, especially something for unfair decks.
The two knots and 2 remands have been working out quite well so a big thank you to everyone who helped me squeeze in the remands. Knot is still a serviceable hard counter with only 5 fetches in the deck, but being on the draw can make it uncomfortable to blank but that's a necessary risk I believe.
In the side the only thing I'm unhappy with is I want room for a negate, but I suppose it's fine as is. Perhaps I may cut elle in the main for a negate and replace the batterskull or angel with her in the side. We're good against midrange, but that doesn't mean we don't need anything in the side for them so elle will be somewhere in the list in some capacity.
At the moment, I prefer the stability of two colors and the raw power of ancestral vision over what black offers. I don't think running bolts and electrolyze is actually necessary so UWR is overkill against decks that we're already favored against and Bant might just be too slow in general. I love casting explore in a control deck and having main deck artifact destruction is a big deal with thopters around, but I have effectively 6 cards in the side that stops the combo and UWx isn't that slow. So once again the extra color is unnecessary. Esper charm is clearly more versatile than AV and thoughtseize in the side is big game, so that is a real hit to the deck's capability. But at the moment I want to avoid dealing 6 damage to myself which is one of the ways we get punk'd out by affinity and various aggro decks of the format.
One thing that I haven't gotten around to thoroughly testing is playing "technically esper" with black cards and a godless shrine in the side along with a watery grave in the main in place of an island. This would make the deck much better against combo, specifically scapeshift. Scapeshift and boggles are the only matches where the loss of esper charm is a very large hit against your chances so it may be worthwhile adding something extra in the side for them. If I went the pseudo esper route I might build the board something like this:
Is this actually a good idea or am I just being too clever for my own good? I can't quite tell in all honesty and there just isn't enough time in the day to test all the permutations of control decks and sideboards so I gotta draw the line somewhere.
Is this a good idea?
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3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mystic Gate
1 Celestial Colonnade
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Mana Tithe
1 Dispel
1 Noxious Revival
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Path to Exile
4 Mana Leak
1 Go for the Throat
3 Esper Charm
1 Logic Knot
1 Anguished Unmaking
3 Lingering Souls
2 Cryptic Command
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Unburial Rites
2 Dragon's Claw
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Fracturing Gust
Overall the sideboard is obviously something that would be adjusted on week to week basis based on the meta but this is a rough draft. Also I'm trying to find room for a main deck Quicken for instant speed sweepers and potentially instant speed Unburial Rites but I'm not sure what I should cut, also main deck hand disruption like TS or IoK seems like a good addition but I still can't decide what I should cut.
In any event please give feedback to let me know if I'm on the right track, the goal of the deck is to be able to gifts for basically anything.
Rule #1 of modern: Don't play bad cards to enable other bad cards, unless doing so immediately wins the game
---->mana tithe needs to go, and so does noxious revival
Rule #2 of modern: Your opponent will thoughtseize you on turn one.
-->Your deck is extremely vulnerable to a thoughtseize. I sampled 20 hands from this decklist and NONE of them did anything through a thoughtseize. 3 esper charm is not sufficient to gas back up from any attrition deck, and no attrition deck will let you live to cast iona or elesh norn for full face value, nor will your tasigur ever stick on the board.
Rule #3 of modern: Your opponent is doing something unfair
-->Nothing really bad to say about that--mana leak and spot removal do a good job of saving the day here.
Rule #4 of modern: Your opponent can and will disrupt your gameplan.
-->This is different from rule #2; what rule #4 says is that your opponent will interact with your gameplan directly. To some extent, the problem here is the same problem as with rule #2--this decklist is pretty all-in on gifts. You've got six cards in the deck purely to go with your gifts, but you're only running two gifts, and no way to bin combo pieces that you draw into naturally. You will be an inconsistent pile much of the time, and your opponents are going to counter the gifts or they're going to thoughtseize it away, and you won't find another in time to get your engines online. The rest of the time (when you don't draw a gifts at all), you're playing an inconsistent pile of 1-of and 2-of removal spells and random expensive limited bomb-mythics, and your opponent is casting bolts, tarmogoyfs, and liliana of the veil.
Gifts ungiven is an excellent and powerful card. I've top 8'd multiple extended PTQ's in the past with it. It suffers from the same problem as mystical teachings--the more you build around it, the worse the card gets.
The danger of cool things:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/3689_The_Danger_Of_Cool_Things.html (yes it's from the 90's and it's written poorly. The point still stands)
Chingsung Chang revisited it a few years ago:
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/the-danger-of-cool-things-revisited/
These should both be mandatory reading before attempting to brew with either gifts ungiven or mystical teachings.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Tonight I'll test -1 cryptic, -1 Sphinx rev, -1 flex slot, for 3 teachings.
Mostly because this will allow us to play a fracturing gust in the board as well as a few other spicy one ofs and actually find them.
Not to mention it's very strong against gbx
Another option is "replace the 2 of can trip flex with 2 teachings ". Sort of a SUPER cantrip
I've been in a slump with Esper, going 2-2 in each of my last 3 SNM's and losing even against favorable matchups like Affinity. I just can't seem to draw what I need. I don't respect trying to blame variance and I always feel like I could be doing something better. It's got me a little down. =/
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Try out the gifts package. It's a lot more consistent and there are "oops I win" draws while still remaining a control deck. Even in our worst matchups like burn I find myself stealing so many game ones off of a turn 4/5 Iona naming red, or an Elesh Norn against the tribal decks being lights out. You can play the grindy game against more controlling decks with thopter sword + loam as well.
I've been feeling the same playing esper draw-go generally. Like my deck is just treating me poorly, and drawing the wrong half happens so often off 26-27 lands + 10 card draw spells. Working sooo hard for every win compared to gifts made me switch soo fast (for now).
Steer me. I'll test the daylights out of it
I don't mind working hard for the win -- that's why I even play Esper. I just don't like not winning. #SpikeProblems
I've been not-winning enough recently that now I just want it to be easy and reassure myself that it actually can happen. I've never gone better than 3-1 with Esper other than once (I don't mind, because 3-1 pays for the next event and a little extra to pick up more pieces for Esper).
Edit: That said, I still think that Esper's the most competitive draw go deck.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Same. I don't like the build-around-me style, which is why I don't really bother with gifts.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
As a UW Gifts player, I second this request. It would be great if someone could show me how to fit Gifts into Esper without weakening either the combo or the control shell too much, but I am pretty sure that it doesn't easily work.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Deck: Untitled Deck
//Main
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Muddle the Mixture
4 Path to Exile
3 Mana Leak
1 Dismember
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Wrath of God
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
2 Polluted Delta
1 Mystic Gate
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Day of Judgment
2 Detention Sphere
//Sideboard
1 Terastodon
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Gideon Jura
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Disenchant
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Extirpate
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Celestial Purge
2 Thoughtseize
Display deck statistics
This is the main deck i'm trying right now. The thopter combo actualy uses very little space. It's more of a normal UW control deck but with a better attrition plan. It still plays out like a control deck. The list is probably not optimal but i like the feel of it right now. I like to have some Elspeth SC, Gideon and Teferi in the side to dodge the GY hate when needed.
Edit: the 2nd detention sphere should probably be oblivion ring
4x Celestial Colonnade
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Glacial Fortress
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Watery Grave
1x Godless Shrine
2x Island
2x Plains
1x Swamp
Wincons/URites Package (4):
1x Unburial Rites
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Grave Titan
3x Spell Snare
2x Logic Knot
1x Remand
3x Cryptic Command
Removal (8)
4x Path to Exile
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Supreme verdict
1x Wrath of God
Draw/Advantage (14)
4x Think Twice
4x Esper Charm
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Sphinxs's Revelation
3x Gifts Ungiven
2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Stony Silence
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Condemn
2x Dispel
1x Wrath of God
1x Celestial Purge
1x Anguished Unmaking
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x Negate
The changes from my typical Esper Draw-Go list:
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
the traditional esper mana cruve is probably not best suited to use ancestral vision at it's best. Jeskai control and grixis midrange/control are probably better unless you build a discard heavy version of esper. But then the problem is that your visions will draw you a bunch of late game discard
Does the thopter combo actually help? I can't imagine it being significantly more useful against grindy decks than reanimating Iona.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
This looks good, but 1 of those Supreme Verdicts should be a Day of Judgment. It is only slightly worse and let's you search for a sweeper with Gifts Ungiven. Also, you need to run more Scapeshift-hate. In your 75 you only have 8 spells that stop Scapeshift (not counting Iona), and 2 of those can be bounced with Cryptic Command and another 3 are 4 mana counterspells that can easily be stopped by Scapeshift.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Well here's the problem with AV in esper. First take a look at this generic esper list. BTW, it's ancestral vision, not visionS. That's going to irk me as much as 'slot' removal and 'mainboard' I can see it now. Those are not real words!!1!111
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Removal
4 Path to Exile
4 Supreme Verdict
1 Condemn
Permission
4 Cryptic Command
3 Spell Snare
2 Logic Knot
4 Esper Charm
4 Think Twice
2 Remand
2 Sphinx's Revelation
Mana
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
So if you want to play 4 AV you need to make room, so what do you cut?
Path, verdict, or condemn? Cut any of these and you favorable matches become closer to a coin toss. Path and verdict are too important to cut and most of us here agree a 5th spot removal spell (be it condemn, halo, or D sphere) is mandatory so we can't cut them. If you cut a wrath then you'll need to add in another spot removal to make up for the power you lose against creature decks. Fair creature decks are our best match up so making that worse is entirely counterproductive. So we can't really cut any of the removal for AV.
What about counter magic? Well cryptic is a main stay and is our master card for modern so they can't go. Killing creatures is easy, for everything else there's cryptic command. Spell snare is amazing and 4 is likely correct so cutting them is absolutely wrong. Logic knot and remand are necessary for curve purposes, we NEED something to interact with spells on turn 3, especially if we're on the draw, and cheap ways to protect our late game revelations and WSZ. You MIGHT get away with pulling a remand, but then you're better off changing the other one to a negate and you're more soft to opposing AV. Being soft to "The New Hotness" is never where you want to be.
Win conditions? Well WSZ can't be cut under any circumstances and snapcaster mage is the best blue card in the format and waaay too versatile for us so neither of those can go. That leave you with maybe elle to cut. But again, she is such a massive 1 hit KO against every fair deck while still playing offense and defense so incredibly that I hesitate to remove her. But that being said she isn't actually necessary.
Ok, what about card draw? The most natural cut here to work in AV is esper charm, but if you do that then you're no longer esper so that's absolutely a nonstarter. But if you're absolutely desperate you can trim a charm for an AV, which I think is heresy and still incorrect, but it's a thing you can do. Revelation is our late game power and is the biggest payoff for being in a draw go deck, a rev for 4-5 wins the game all by itself so that can't go. Drawing a rev late game is the greatest feeling ever, announcing X=9 is one of the draws (wakka wakka!) to playing the deck and, like WSZ, is our inevitability that we 100% need as control players. Other than those we have think twice which is our early game velocity and on demand card draw. This card, as mopey as it may seem, is absolutely essential to the deck working properly so it can't go either. Going over 10 draw spells is overkill and going less so that you can 'make up for it' with vision isn't completely accurate. Even if you cast every draw spell in the deck and add up to the same total cards, that's not how the games work. With fewer total draw spells in the deck you'll (shockingly) draw them less often. A consequence of this, which many of us have stated previously, will lead you to some very awkward mid game situations where you need a draw spell and top deck an AV. That's not fun at all. But if you're absolutely desperate to work in AV you can trim a single think twice.
This leaves us with the following potential cuts for AV: 1 elspeth. 1 remand. 1 think twice.
Dude. Wait, what? There are only 3 cards that could be deemed acceptable cuts? That's right, there is not nearly as much flexibility in the esper list as one might imagine. Even if you take the two lists with the most differing numbers such as mine and amelk0's lists you'll see that they still follow the same general formula; X "removal" Y "counters" Z "draw" 2 snaps, 1 WSZ and 2 others which is usually elspeth and/or remand. Most of the lists that you'll find are nearly identical, they're just swapping Removal Spell B for Removal Spell C. So if you examine the list on the most basic level, trying to work in AV is really a question of "esper charm and black or ancestral vision and UW." If you want to be in a true control deck that's the decision you have to make because all of the other spells are essential to making your draw spells worthwhile. AV or Not is more a consideration of color options and versatility versus mana stability and power.
<Takes a deep breath>
Now that the wall o' text has been splattered across the screen, here's my official opinion on AV in esper. It just doesn't fit in. If you want to play control with AV go into any of the other color options that aren't grixis because that deck is still terrible. Plain UW, Bant, and UWR are all completely viable right beside Esper and it all comes down to what each splash color, or lack thereof, brings to the table and weather or not that's worth it.
Anyways, this is pretty detailed and some of the card choices are complex in relation to game plans against certain decks.
1x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Hallowed Fountain
2x Watery Grave
3x Island
1x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Drowned Catacomb
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
1x Ghost Quarter
4x Esper Charm
2x Remand
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Hallowed Moonlight
2x Logic Knot
4x Spell Snare
4x Cryptic Command
4x Path to Exile
3x Supreme Verdict
1x White Sun's Zenith
2x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Gifts Ungiven
2x Mystical Teachings
2x Unburial Rites
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Fracturing Gust
2x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
So the sideboard plan is obvious, but allow me to point out a few small intricacies to those of you who see this and go "oh, he's forcing gifts into the board"
Obviously the sideboard is pretty heavily reliant on gifts to beat certain decks, but it hits hard and does very powerful and game ending things. That's why we want 6 virtual copies of gifts (the two teachings find gifts). However in matchups where we don't want gifts, the teachings find the teferis, then flashback to find uncounterable (thanks teferi) Ionas. Vs Gb/x for example, we board in some fatties and unburial rites and laugh at Thoughtseize or liliana making us discard.
Vs burn we simply just Iona asap. Elesh or course gives us instant blowout wins against affinity and infect, while also doing really well against merfolk and collected company brews.
A big reason why I like this plan is because if they don't see gifts game one, and only see a couple think twices, nobody is going to expect us to be on POST BOARD gifts.
Also, there's room for nuance here, for example, versus a blue control mirror we don't have to use gifts at all we can just bring in teachings and teferis and card advantage them out of the game / counter anything with no contest. Vs something like Scapeshift we can teachings for teferi making their scapeshift easily counterable, OR we can gifts for iona on Blue, which would make them able to cast scapeshift but NOT able to defend it.
Finally, my favorite card choice, Hallowed Moonlight. There are other decks that will rely on the graveyard either pre- or post- board (or both) (co-co, griselbrand, opposing gifts decks, loam dredgevine, living end) Hallowed Moonlight stops these decks in their tracks, by basically making their "big turn" fizzle. It counters target unburial rites, target goryos vengeance, and target co-co (or infinite viscera seer persist loop) all while drawing us a card. Also has fringe applications against things like tooth and nail, kiki-restoration angel, and is a reasonable corner case play against a thopter /sword opponent who plans on making a million thopters this turn with his open mana (not ideal, just saying, you can)
I've posted this list, or similar, a couple times now.
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Mystical Teachings
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Esper Charm
2 Remand
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Path to Exile
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Consume the Meek
1 Wrath of God
2 Logic Knot
2 Spell Snare
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Calciform Pools
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
2 Watery Grave
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Port Town
1 Choked Estuary
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Dispel
2 Negate
2 Stony Silence
1 Notion Thief
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Grave Titan
I'm still not completely happy with it, but it still retains some draw-go elements, and it still has the "I win" button that gifts + teachings provides.
Currently, I'm not entirely sold on visions in this shell (I like it a lot in regular draw-go, but I'm considering playing more cantrips and answers instead in this shell. The shadow lands are currently for easier t1 visions. I wanted to play a maindeck dispel, but the 26th land has proven too important, especially since AV doesn't help us hit 4 lands, which is pretty critical.
I also kind of want a 5th man land too, but its not as critical. If I end up cutting the visions, I'll probably do something like -4 AV, +2 remand +1 dispel +1 cryptic -1 port town -1 choked estuary +1 tar pit +1 glacial fortress/drowned catacomb.
I used to play postboard gifts too, (when I played teachings main) and I'll give you my thoughts on it: Its good, the surprise is strong here, but devoting literally your entire sideboard to it is questionable. If you're playing 2 teachings, 2 gifts is fine. I played 1 rites, but 2 isn't bad. However, there are some decks where we want some dedicated hate, and you aren't running any. Stony Silence and Clique come to mind. Fracturing gust doesn't always cut it, and clique is teachable, and I think should be included. Unmaking is a strong teachings target as well.
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Path to Exile
1 Detention Sphere
1 Condemn
Permission
4 Cryptic Command
3 Spell Snare
2 Logic Knot
2 Remand
Draw
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Think Twice
2 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Mana
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
3 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
2 Prairie Stream
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Batterskull
2 Celestial Purge
2 Condemn
3 Disdainful Stroke
1 Pulse of the Fields
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Vendilion Clique
Here's a link to a GoogleDoc with my current sideboard plans against the majority of expected decks. By all means yell at me if you think one of them is incorrect or something is missing.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Dgwl9fUSI1P54teKSiqU7FEV0pN5zmby-Op83y_nGaE/pub
There's only 1 thing that's somewhat temporary which is in the manabase. I cut the mystic gate for a plains which leaves me a blue source shy of where I'd prefer to be, but that's fine for now. Eventually it'll go back if blood moon and other nonbasic hate cards aren't so popular. I've tried port town, temple of enlightenment, and seachrome coast in the deck and I never liked any of them. They far too often messed up my curve or actually made me shock with a fountain so I could cast everything on time. The times where the other duals and various value lands like blighted cataract, faerie conclave, and scry lands showed up they were always just "nice." Never amazing or game breaking, but cute value.
The times where they were bad were actually crippling, the same goes for calciform pools. Nice and neat, but still too much of a liability for what I'm after with straight UW colors. So after playing with them a bunch the downside was significantly bigger than the potential gains so overall it simply isn't worth it. So the only other dual that I like in the mana base is the filter land with all of the other duals are their current numbers which are correct. The only time the buddy lands and battle lands were unfortunate were when I drew 3 colonnades in addition to them which is a rarity.
Elspeth is also staying in the list, but at some point I may end up cutting her for a deprive, negate, or another condemn in the main depending on how the format shakes out. I love her to pieces, but she might just be an obscene level of overkill. If that ends up being the case then some more early interaction would be desired, especially something for unfair decks.
The two knots and 2 remands have been working out quite well so a big thank you to everyone who helped me squeeze in the remands. Knot is still a serviceable hard counter with only 5 fetches in the deck, but being on the draw can make it uncomfortable to blank but that's a necessary risk I believe.
In the side the only thing I'm unhappy with is I want room for a negate, but I suppose it's fine as is. Perhaps I may cut elle in the main for a negate and replace the batterskull or angel with her in the side. We're good against midrange, but that doesn't mean we don't need anything in the side for them so elle will be somewhere in the list in some capacity.
At the moment, I prefer the stability of two colors and the raw power of ancestral vision over what black offers. I don't think running bolts and electrolyze is actually necessary so UWR is overkill against decks that we're already favored against and Bant might just be too slow in general. I love casting explore in a control deck and having main deck artifact destruction is a big deal with thopters around, but I have effectively 6 cards in the side that stops the combo and UWx isn't that slow. So once again the extra color is unnecessary. Esper charm is clearly more versatile than AV and thoughtseize in the side is big game, so that is a real hit to the deck's capability. But at the moment I want to avoid dealing 6 damage to myself which is one of the ways we get punk'd out by affinity and various aggro decks of the format.
1 mystical teachings
1 fracturing gust
2 disdainful stroke
2 negate
1 batterskull
2 anguished unmaking
1 extirpate
2 stony silence
Is this actually a good idea or am I just being too clever for my own good? I can't quite tell in all honesty and there just isn't enough time in the day to test all the permutations of control decks and sideboards so I gotta draw the line somewhere.