Elspeth is a great sideboard card, no doubt.
I would never play her main unless I only played against gbx.
I think WSZ is enough for ground bodies and decking them. You don't need another planeswalker to do so.
I know playing mainboard threats is popular now, especially with so much eldrazi, but theres a reason all of the lists in the first post don't play any.
Have you thought about telling time over anticipate?
I haven't really considered it as a strong contender. I'm not certain how Telling Time is advantageous to Anticipate unless running Miracle cards. I'd be happy to hear your opinion on the matter. I just always felt that the use of Anticipate as a dig/velocity spell lets you get through a greater number of cards towards other things that you need that aren't presently in hand.
In the situations where your deck is more uniform (i.e. you're not "digging" for specific cards), Telling Time works like Ponder or Preordain. If you flip 2 cards you want and one you don't, it's much better to be able to filter out just the one card. In general, I think Ponder effects are stronger than Impulse effects outside of combo decks.
Telling Time is a pretty mediocre Ponder effect, though.
To my complete surprise, Epiphany at the Drownyard is actually working really well for me in Esper control
I originally tried it in UWr and quickly dismissed it, but in Esper the loss of card quality per draw over quantity barely matters at all. I'm now playing it over Think Twice (yes, the full playset), where it can both cantrip into lands early in the game and give huge batches of card advantage later. It also enables me to play the full playset of Snapcaster Mage and 3x Logit Knot by fueling the graveyard, and Snapcaster often puts the opponent in a double damned situation with snap in one pile and verdict or rev in the other.
The only difficult thing has been wincons; flipping over a singleton wincon and getting it milled early in the game can be an issue, which is why I've dropped Gideon Jura for another WSZ. Lategame when you actually want to cast WSZ this is not really an issue btw; if you Epiphany for 6 and let your opponent choose between WSZ and a land vs 4 other cards, you should have the tools to win no matter what pile they give.
I doubt there will be many people jumping onto this idea because I myself sure as hell didn't, but I do want to press to goldfish this list a little and always pick the pile you least want.
Have you thought about telling time over anticipate?
I haven't really considered it as a strong contender. I'm not certain how Telling Time is advantageous to Anticipate unless running Miracle cards. I'd be happy to hear your opinion on the matter. I just always felt that the use of Anticipate as a dig/velocity spell lets you get through a greater number of cards towards other things that you need that aren't presently in hand.
Telling time with a fetchland is anticipate with options.
Its basically just more versatile.
Looking at anticipate from a scapeshift perspective, (or other similar deck), its easy to see why its better than telling time: a good number of cards in your deck don't matter. At some point, they're either scapeshift or they aren't. If you see scapeshift in the top three, great, take it. If you don't, subjecting yourself to another draw that isn't scapeshift isn't great, if you just want to win.
In esper, however, it doesn't work as much like that. Seeing two cards on top we want is very possible. Especially since we need to hit land drops, you can telling time, grab the path you need, path their guy, and leave the land drop you want to hit on top, then untap and draw it.
Telling time is very mediocre, but its better than anticipate, generally, in my experience. Its another card like think twice. Its not good, but theres nothing better.
Has epiphany been better than something like forbidden alchemy then?
I thought about epiphany in some type of sultai control deck that can utilize the graveyard a lot more, but it just seems somewhat lackluster here.
That being said, its interesting, and I will have to test it out. The struggle is finding time with people who won't choose stupid piles -.-
I would take quite the different stance about Telling Time when comparing it to Anticipate.
In a situation where you need to draw a specific bit of gas (like a removal or counter spell), they are equivalent if the card you desire is in your top 3. If the card is not, Anticipate gets you there faster.
I also feel like the bad Telling Times are so much worse than the bad Anticipates. If you cast either and see three equally bad cards (playing against Ad Nauseum game one and you see Supreme Verdict, Condemn, and Supreme Verdict, the Telling Time feels awful.
Needing to have a fetchland to crack in the case that the top card is not something you want to draw is a big strike against it, in my opinion. If you want a card (an answer, likely, in our reactive deck) and you see two in the top 3, I think it is more rare to need two specific cards to get out of a situation as opposed to one specific answer, which Anticipate does better.
In a pure U/W list running 4 fetches, I don't feel like Telling Time has any major advantage over Anticipate. I'd be happy to hear a rebuttal, but digging one card less deep in a vacuum seem worse. If Impulse was modern legal, Anticipate would look atrocious by comparison.
The major difference is that think twice is not used to dig for a specific answer, so much as it is for raw card advantage. Its for getting everything.
Telling time is too. If you absolutely need a boardwipe, telling time isn't as good. If you're just casting the spell to cycle it, then telling time also sets up your next draw, which is often good, especially early where you can get land drops and such. With a fetchland they're both essentially equal.
As I mentioned above, if you play 8 fetches, TT is better. 6, probably better. If you have 4, maybe not.
Again, telling time is better if you're not desperately digging for an answer.
If you have 3 revs, you also might have a bit more draw power to work with.
As I see it, an early telling time is nearly always better, but a late one can be worse. With the extra rev, this balances out a bit.
That being said, I would probably not run either unless my deck was set up to dig for specific cards (teachings, etc)
The major difference is that think twice is not used to dig for a specific answer, so much as it is for raw card advantage. Its for getting everything.
Telling time is too. If you absolutely need a boardwipe, telling time isn't as good. If you're just casting the spell to cycle it, then telling time also sets up your next draw, which is often good, especially early where you can get land drops and such. With a fetchland they're both essentially equal.
As I mentioned above, if you play 8 fetches, TT is better. 6, probably better. If you have 4, maybe not.
Again, telling time is better if you're not desperately digging for an answer.
If you have 3 revs, you also might have a bit more draw power to work with.
As I see it, an early telling time is nearly always better, but a late one can be worse. With the extra rev, this balances out a bit.
That being said, I would probably not run either unless my deck was set up to dig for specific cards (teachings, etc)
I don't think this is relevant. The better telling time is not better enough to make up for the worst one. In the best cast it will be slightly better than anticipate but in the worst case it will kill you. But the discussion really should be do we want this effect at all? I don't think this effect come with the appropriate power level in modern to be warranted in the deck
Hello everybody, im headed to a modern tournament on Saturday and was wondering if anybody here could take a look at my list and let me know what they think? I'm not expecting many Eldrazi if any at all as there seems to be nobody in my meta on the deck. Looking @ a few infect, Junk, Loam, Grixis Control, Elves, Merfolk, Affinity & Tron.
I'm looking for help on the manabase, it has worked well for me pretty much every game but I am welcome to any suggestions/warnings. I'm also looking for your thoughts on things like MD Detention Sphere. Also, do you think i'm to light/heavey on my counter and card draw?
May as well suggest some sideboard cards too if you want, i'm not the greatest with the sideboard but what I have now is essentially there to improve my matchups against hyper aggro / infect. Also The Blood Baron of Vizkopa is generally an un-used card in most decks but I really like it in a ton of matchups over my batterskull so that will likely stay right where it is.
I don't think this is relevant. The better telling time is not better enough to make up for the worst one. In the best cast it will be slightly better than anticipate but in the worst case it will kill you. But the discussion really should be do we want this effect at all? I don't think this effect come with the appropriate power level in modern to be warranted in the deck
Heavily disagree.
I have not played either outside of teachings, but anticipate always underwhelmed me. Telling time was better in a vast, vast majority of situations.
Perhaps that is abnormal, or is related to the different style of deck, but I'll call it like I see it, and telling time does better.
Do we want it at all? Maybe. Again, I played a different list when I played teachings, that made a cantrip more appealing than just card advantage. If you were not playing with esper charms, but wanted to keep the draw power up, its probably a good choice. In esper, I could see replacing either 2 shadow or 2 remand (depending on your meta) from the original wafo list with 2 TT/anticipate.
I think you want shadow of doubt over remand (better vs elves/tron, since remand doesn't really shine outside of become immense in infect, and a handful of flashback spells from loam/grixis/lingering souls in junk. Remand doesn't shine vs junk, elves, affinity, or fish, and is fairly hit or miss vs infect.
I would suggest playing the fourth spell snare over the mainboard halo as well, since it hits a good number of infect/grixis/fish/affinity cards, with solid targets among the other decks.
The detention sphere is fine, I guess. I've never liked it mainboard, but it could be a lot worse.
I think baneslayer/elspeth is better than blood baron here. 2 Lingering souls sideboard isn't where you want to be. More cliques could be good.
In your meta, play 2 halo side instead of 2 condemn.
I like 2 negate 1 dispel better than the other way around, especially vs tron/loam.
Personally not a fan of spellskite here, since its only relevant vs infect. EE is usually worse than another board wipe.
Celestial purge seems alright, but not fantastic. Disfigure, on the other hand, seems quite good vs infect/elves/affinity, and not bad vs fish.
Night of souls betrayal is also something to consider.
All in all, -2 remand +2 shadow, -1 halo +1 spell snare mainboard.
Sideboard like:
For how often you dismiss things people say because they didn't explain, you should explain why, because people need a reason to change their opinion. As far as D-Sphere is concerned, we really want permanent removal vs. Tron, and D-Sphere is so lackluster. Most of their permanents destroy or exile our permanents, in which case D-Sphere is almost useless. Sure it's good vs tokens, but in that situation Night of Souls' Betrayal, E.E., another wrath, or even a few Souls tokens are just as, if not more effective.
Hello everybody, im headed to a modern tournament on Saturday and was wondering if anybody here could take a look at my list and let me know what they think? I'm not expecting many Eldrazi if any at all as there seems to be nobody in my meta on the deck. Looking @ a few infect, Junk, Loam, Grixis Control, Elves, Merfolk, Affinity & Tron.
I'm looking for help on the manabase, it has worked well for me pretty much every game but I am welcome to any suggestions/warnings. I'm also looking for your thoughts on things like MD Detention Sphere. Also, do you think i'm to light/heavey on my counter and card draw?
May as well suggest some sideboard cards too if you want, i'm not the greatest with the sideboard but what I have now is essentially there to improve my matchups against hyper aggro / infect. Also The Blood Baron of Vizkopa is generally an un-used card in most decks but I really like it in a ton of matchups over my batterskull so that will likely stay right where it is.
There are a few things I agree with CodyX about, but also a few things I don't. Firstly, the things I agree with:
I think Remand isn't where you want to be in this meta, and Shadow of Doubt will have a better overall impact -- Remand is 100% dead against Merfolk (because of Aether Vial), Affinity, and usually Infect. SoD is at least cycle-able in all of those places, despite being worse than G1 Remands vs. Abzan and Grixis control. This being said, Remand is actually fantastic against Loam (Remanding Life from the Loam in the early turns hurts them a lot), good against Grixis and Tron, and a decent G1 card against Abzan.
Baneslayer Angel is probably better than Blood Baron. Blood Baron's protection only matters against Abzan and Grixis Control in that meta -- both places where I wouldn't want to play Blood Baron. Against Grixis, you just want to play lands, kill Tasigur and wrath away Pia n' Kiran, and then cast multiple Esper charms at their end step untapping with a giant x-spell. Even Sphixn's Rev isn't too bad to untap with against Grixis, since they're so light on real threats and will try to burn you out, which shouldn't really be enough damage as long as you're aware of your life total. That said, Zenith is the easiest to win with. Regardless, none of that makes Blood Baron matter, so I wouldn't board in a beater. Abzan is a little bit of a harder case, but I've found that trying to play a giant beater there isn't worth it -- when you cast it, they untap and play Lili+Goyf or something, and all of the sudden you literally can't win. You just never want to tap out against them unlless it will actually win the game (Elspeth Sun's Champion comes to mind), and Blood Baron is no exception. (edit: The reason you want Baneslayer instead is that first stike and flying matters a lot against Infect, Affinity, and Elves, all places where you would welcome a big, lifelink threat. Against Infect, it's another wincon that doesn't die to Spell Pierce.)
I don't really like the Spellskite or EE very much, since Infect is always prepared for Spellskite in their 75 (something like 3x Nature's Claims and 2x Twisted Image in the sideboard, plus Wild Defiances so they don't have to go all in anymore and can afford to lose a guy). EE is best suited against very quick decks that flood the board, so now we're looking at only Elves and Affinity -- both of which are easily disrupted until you hit a Wrath, which is just better at that point.
I too prefer 2x Negate/1x Dispel, since Negate is far more important against Tron.
I agree that a Celestial Purge would be a fine addition to the board -- kills Lili and Keranos, maybe Magus of the Moon if the Elves list is playing it.
Cutting Condemn from the board -- No, no, no! This is the best card you have against Infect and Elves (to bridge into Wrath territory, and mop up individual guys post-wrath), and it makes Infect a favorable matchup just by being present. Not to mention that Infect isn't usually prepared for a non-red UW deck to pack so many cheap answers to their dudes. Runed Halo is good there too, but there are some situations when you just can't cast Halo or you've tapped too low on your main phase. For example, if they have the T1 Hierarch into t2 Inkmoth+infect guy, you can't cast Runed Halo naming one or you might be dead to the other. There are many other reasons why you might want to play Halo in moderation -- people might start to board in removal for them (Nature's Claim would incidentally hit things like Spellskite, Night of Souls Betrayal, and Stony Silence (coming from Tron)), it's a Spell Snare target, it eats Abrupt Decay/Golgari Charm, it does weird things to your mana base, etc. It's still very good, but at most I'd play 2 main or more likely 1 main/1 side.
The Lingering Souls -- you have a small few grindy decks in your meta, and there's little downside to those Lingering Souls. Against Abzan, Lingering Souls is the best way to answer their Lingering Souls, while having tokens of your own can pressure Liliana -- not to mention you can discard souls to Lili. Against Grixis, it costs few enough mana that you can sink into it a little and put on a clock. It trades with Snapcaster Mages and Pia n' Kirans well too. I don't generally love Souls, but 2 is a fine number in the sideboard, I think. Souls is also fine against Affinity (though not needed), Loam, and Elves.
Disfigure is just worse than Condemn 95% of the time, the other 5% being when they have a Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer, or a Tasigur and they aren't attacking (maybe they saw your hand? idk). We don't care about their life total, and Condemn doesn't get countered by Mutagenic Growth and lord pumps (against Elves/Merfolk).
Other thoughts:
Speaking of Elves/Merfolk, I think you want the 4th wrath in the main or side. It's great against Affinity, Elves, Merfolk, Abzan (because Lingering Souls), and an actual Verdict is an uncounterable answer to Grixis' threats. You may want the 4th wrath to be an actual Wrath of God in the sideboard in case of Thrun from BGx and Elves. I also think you should swap the Mystic Gate for a Polluted Delta or Godless Shrine, since the 3 GQ's will make the draws with both GQ and Gate unkeepable. I also think you could easily support a 2nd Clique in the board for the Tron and Grixis matchups.
I, like many others ahead of me, also think that the Batterskull should be an Elspeth (I've tested this very extensively, myself) because the mana investement to bounce Batterskull for "resilience" isn't worth the lifelink effect. Many times, you slam Elspeth and the following happens: you get an immediate 4-for-one; the board stalls to a complete halt, forcing the opponent to overcommit to the board into a Wrath or just die; and you now have the free time to draw as many cards as you want to while keeping the board clear enough to let Elspeth do her work. When you resolve Batterskull, the likelihood is that they kill the Germ (Vapor Snag, Dismember, Decay, double-bolt, etc), untap and attack, play a threat that you should've been able to counter but can't, and pass back to you -- forcing you to eventually sink 3 more mana into the Skull to get any real value out of it, and putting you behind. Batterskull also just dies to x/5's from Abzan and Grixis.
People should also learn to read the topic and the opinion of the players, before making changements for the sake of making changements. Really, I might sound a little harsh, but starting AGAIN all over explaining why Think Twice can't be cut from the maindeck is really unpleasant. It has been said, like, a thousand of times?
I'm not trying to be rude, but why would people asking about Think Twice bother you? Yes, it's a common question. Just explain it again and move on.
I want just to point out one thing: Explosives to me, in an Esper build, has been amazing. Essentially, that's the quintessence of versatility, and you can board it in almost all the non-combo matches.
Yeah, it's not so bad. I can just never find room for it in my sideboard. Maybe I should give it a shot again.
I definitely agree with your explanation of why Think Twice is essential, and why it and Epiphany aren't interchangeable. Maybe we could just direct them to the primer for more information regarding the core of the deck. We want the thread to be as active as possible, so we don't want to scare newcomers away. Not everybody has the time to read through all of our posts which often times don't involve Think Twice, since it is accepted as being core to the deck. As long as people aren't recommending slotting in Monastery Mentor and Thought Scour, I'm good.
I think Remand isn't where you want to be in this meta, and Shadow of Doubt will have a better overall impact -- Remand is 100% dead against Merfolk (because of Aether Vial), Affinity, and usually Infect. SoD is at least cycle-able in all of those places, despite being worse than G1 Remands vs. Abzan and Grixis control. This being said, Remand is actually fantastic against Loam (Remanding Life from the Loam in the early turns hurts them a lot), good against Grixis and Tron, and a decent G1 card against Abzan.
The Lingering Souls -- you have a small few grindy decks in your meta, and there's little downside to those Lingering Souls. Against Abzan, Lingering Souls is the best way to answer their Lingering Souls, while having tokens of your own can pressure Liliana -- not to mention you can discard souls to Lili. Against Grixis, it costs few enough mana that you can sink into it a little and put on a clock. It trades with Snapcaster Mages and Pia n' Kirans well too. I don't generally love Souls, but 2 is a fine number in the sideboard, I think. Souls is also fine against Affinity (though not needed), Loam, and Elves.
Remand is dead against Affinity and Merfolk? Merfolk will drop a lord on turn 2, the majority of games, if you let them. There's also the 40% of games they just don't have vial. Remand is a card to be boarded out against them, but the idea that it will rot in your hand because they don't cast spells isn't real. Considering that the card is working as designed against Eldrazi, referencing the small number of poor matchups for it (which are already 60/40) doesn't make much sense either. Even less so when the card you compare it with is Shadow of Doubt, which in the majority of matchups will burn 2 of your mana early game with absolutely no effect. I know most people aren't cognizant of mana exchanges in the early game, but the same principles of exchange that make Remand a powerful Magic card make Shadow of Doubt only playable when the field is full of decks like Birthing Pod.
Lingering Souls is terrible. You want cheap interaction, draw spells, and large effects that generate large amounts of positional or card advantage. Lingering Souls seems like a Moat-type of effect, but it's just a token generator with Rebound. Every aggro deck is well equipped to play around the tokens, and at 3 mana it's too expensive to qualify as cheap removal. Cards like Night of Soul's Betrayal are the actual effects you want; I think I'd even go up to 4 Baneslayer before playing Lingering Souls.
People should also learn to read the topic and the opinion of the players, before making changements for the sake of making changements. Really, I might sound a little harsh, but starting AGAIN all over explaining why Think Twice can't be cut from the maindeck is really unpleasant. It has been said, like, a thousand of times?
Concerning Epiphany at the Drownyard. When the card was announced, I was excited. Until I noticed that it wasn't a Fact or Fiction effect. Anyway, EVEN IF you want to play it (I won't dismiss it, even though it's not an ideal card) it has nothing to do with Think Twice. Because, actually, Think Twice draws us cards in the early. Epiphany, in the early, is more often than not a bad Anticipate. If you have to dig to reach another land, Think Twice is better.
I can see the argument for Epiphany in a UW shell in replacement for Esper Charm (when the rumor spreads, that was my initial thought), certainly not in spite of Think Twice. Although, Charm is clearly better in more stages of the game compared to Epiphany (and, if you run only a single finisher like Zenith, you've to pray any time you resolve an Epiphany).
I would take it a step further and say it's just plain unplayable in Control.
Let's say Jace's Ingenuity is +2 card advantage, and Preordain is +2 filtering. Steam Augury and Epiphany at the Drownyard are like -2 filtering +X card advantage. You have to not give a flying **** what comes off the top of your deck for the cards to be good. These things are templated to not be good for Control, in my opinion. The natural fit for them is the UR tempo decks that do a bunch of "neat" things with cheap spells and Pyromancers or Kiln Fiends.
Remand is dead against Affinity and Merfolk? Merfolk will drop a lord on turn 2, the majority of games, if you let them. There's also the 40% of games they just don't have vial. Remand is a card to be boarded out against them, but the idea that it will rot in your hand because they don't cast spells isn't real. Considering that the card is working as designed against Eldrazi, referencing the small number of poor matchups for it (which are already 60/40) doesn't make much sense either. Even less so when the card you compare it with is Shadow of Doubt, which in the majority of matchups will burn 2 of your mana early game with absolutely no effect. I know most people aren't cognizant of mana exchanges in the early game, but the same principles of exchange that make Remand a powerful Magic card make Shadow of Doubt only playable when the field is full of decks like Birthing Pod.
Lingering Souls is terrible. You want cheap interaction, draw spells, and large effects that generate large amounts of positional or card advantage. Lingering Souls seems like a Moat-type of effect, but it's just a token generator with Rebound. Every aggro deck is well equipped to play around the tokens, and at 3 mana it's too expensive to qualify as cheap removal. Cards like Night of Soul's Betrayal are the actual effects you want; I think I'd even go up to 4 Baneslayer before playing Lingering Souls.
Against Affinity and Merfolk, so many things are such low cost that Remand doesn't actually delay them, and it's a dead card late game against them. The number of times they play a 2-drop threat on t2 is balanced out by the fact that they have good T1 plays -- Affinity just floods out a bunch of free spells, and Remand doesn't help against Signal Pest or most hands with Mox Opal/Springleaf Drum. Remand is arguably better against Mefolk, but it's still not great -- the fact that they start off on a Vial sometimes is important. Honestly, if they don't have the vial, it's hard for them to win against us anyways. T2 lord seems wrong against Esper, since we have Snare, Logic Knot, and Path to immediately answer it -- plus, they may not even know we're on Esper at this point, so they have to play around Remand/Mana Leak/Bolt regardless. If they wait a turn on the Lord, then they can hold up Spell Pierce and Vapor Snag. (Edit: oh, and Merfolk runs Cavern of Souls too)
About Lingering Souls, I was mainly suggesting that it could be brought in against Grixis and Abzan -- neither are really aggro decks. However, it is true that Souls is a fine option against Elves -- you just block their creatures for a little while to time-walk them into Cryptic-tap or Wrath mana. Late game, Souls also just kills the Elves player while giving you the option to fog more turns if you want to. Against Loam, you have to apply pressure or they'll grind you out. You can win without any pressure (that's what the deck is designed to do), but with a few points a turns, the game closes in on them fairly quickly. Plus, if they run discard/Lili/Raven's Crime, Lingering Souls and Think Twice both stop you from being truly hellbent.
Edit: Thinking about it, though, I don't think it matters which one you play -- they're both bad, and are going to get sided out against the same aggro decks. I think I'd actually play Remand because it's more relevant against the other decks you might play.
For how often you dismiss things people say because they didn't explain, you should explain why, because people need a reason to change their opinion
People should also learn to read the topic and the opinion of the players, before making changements for the sake of making changements. Really, I might sound a little harsh, but starting AGAIN all over explaining why Think Twice can't be cut from the maindeck is really unpleasant. It has been said, like, a thousand of times?
Concerning Epiphany at the Drownyard. When the card was announced, I was excited. Until I noticed that it wasn't a Fact or Fiction effect. Anyway, EVEN IF you want to play it (I won't dismiss it, even though it's not an ideal card) it has nothing to do with Think Twice. Because, actually, Think Twice draws us cards in the early. Epiphany, in the early, is more often than not a bad Anticipate. If you have to dig to reach another land, Think Twice is better.
I can see the argument for Epiphany in a UW shell in replacement for Esper Charm (when the rumor spreads, that was my initial thought), certainly not in spite of Think Twice. Although, Charm is clearly better in more stages of the game compared to Epiphany (and, if you run only a single finisher like Zenith, you've to pray any time you resolve an Epiphany).
This is my problem right here.
You say think twice should never be cut, its important to the deck. We need to draw cards.
All those cantrips wafo-tapo played? the remands? the shadows? yea those aren't core, they can be cut. But the think twices? oh no.
A good number of us have advocated against playing more mainboard removal. Do we not even need to explain why its bad and why you shouldn't be cutting cantrips for it?
You should learn to read our opinions on it before making changes.
That is probably up for most useless/obnoxious comments I've made, but I honestly think it has to be said.
You aren't the end all be all expert here.
You think bearscape (who has been in here before) just looked at the card, and decided to post how good it was without ever playing the deck, without any understanding of format? Maybe. Its possible, but unlikely. Chances are a lot better that maybe its just better than you give it credit for. Its interesting. Your reaction should be "Oh, I should try this out" and not "oh thats stupid you don't know what you're talking about".
Personally, batterskull is a better mainboard card than elspeth.
Elspeth is either unbeatable, or terrible depending on the matchups. Batterskull is much more moderate.
Kolaghan's command isn't a reason to not play batterskull. Dark confidant dies to nearly every single removal spell in the deck, and at best, trades with nearly every creature, and its not too difficult to kill him before he gives and value. Its no insight comment to say that he's good. Kolaghan's command is much less common.
Batterskull, like elspeth, is best played as a followup to a boardwipe. Batterskull has the advantage of gaining life, and coming down a turn earlier. On top of that, its fairly difficult to completely remove. While they can just kill the germ and continue to hit you, you're probably in a spot where a, you shouldn't have played batterskull, or b, you don't have anything else to play (just trying to get a boardwipe) and it doesn't really matter.
Elspeth looks quite poor against nearly every combo deck, as well as decks like BW tokens, affinity, infect, and even burn to a lesser extent.
As for maelstrom pulse, it kills elspeth too, and while leaving behind 3 1/1s is something, its not why you tapped out on turn 6.
Remand isn't 100% dead vs fish (if I had t1 vial every game, I don't think I'd be playing esper), but its not an ideal card.
My experience vs loam is that remanding flashback spells is good, loam is obviously reasonable depending on what spot they're in, and remanding their enchantments is also good (as they tend to be the cards you care the most about).
I actually like baneslayer vs abzan a lot, since it does beat a huge amount of their creatures while gaining you life.
Its sometimes a bit awkward to tap out for, but I would usually still board it in.
If you've ever condemned an Ezuri, doesn't feel so great.
Condemn is fine against elves, but terrible when you absolutely need it.
I also prefer to fight over infect's creatures not in combat. Condemn is fine against them, but not better than disfigure.
Personally, I would almost never mainboard halo (its expensive for sorcery speed removal), but two side is a nice place to be at.
You make good points though.
There is an explanation of think twice found on the first post of the thread, for those curious.
Cipher is right about remand, but wrong about souls I think.
Just tossing some souls into your sideboard isn't great, but its not terrible.
At worst, it can chump and save you a ton of life while looking for a boardwipe, and if it can discourage attacks/pile to kill a dude or two, again not the worst.
I wouldn't play them in the sideboard of a deck that otherwise doesn't play them, but you could.
On remand, its not a dead card, but its not great. Being able to remand a cranial plating, then untap and wrath is great. It should be sided out, but its not literally dead, it just sort of cycles.
Again on epiphany, have you guys tried it yet? Bearscape does seem to have played with it some, and that alone is worth more than any amount of speculation. Even he mentioned his surprise. It doesn't look playable, but good cards looking bad during spoiler season is no new story in magic.
T2 lord (or harbinger, or silvergill) isn't exactly wrong against esper. Fish have to put bodies into play to win, and you have to kill them to win. A lot of fish will be fried, no matter how it goes. Ideally, the lords should be saved, but the fish player doesn't always have that hand.
Remand still cycles vs cavern too. Again, side them out, but its not a dead card, just also not a good one.
I would never play her main unless I only played against gbx.
I think WSZ is enough for ground bodies and decking them. You don't need another planeswalker to do so.
I know playing mainboard threats is popular now, especially with so much eldrazi, but theres a reason all of the lists in the first post don't play any.
I haven't really considered it as a strong contender. I'm not certain how Telling Time is advantageous to Anticipate unless running Miracle cards. I'd be happy to hear your opinion on the matter. I just always felt that the use of Anticipate as a dig/velocity spell lets you get through a greater number of cards towards other things that you need that aren't presently in hand.
Telling Time is a pretty mediocre Ponder effect, though.
I originally tried it in UWr and quickly dismissed it, but in Esper the loss of card quality per draw over quantity barely matters at all. I'm now playing it over Think Twice (yes, the full playset), where it can both cantrip into lands early in the game and give huge batches of card advantage later. It also enables me to play the full playset of Snapcaster Mage and 3x Logit Knot by fueling the graveyard, and Snapcaster often puts the opponent in a double damned situation with snap in one pile and verdict or rev in the other.
The only difficult thing has been wincons; flipping over a singleton wincon and getting it milled early in the game can be an issue, which is why I've dropped Gideon Jura for another WSZ. Lategame when you actually want to cast WSZ this is not really an issue btw; if you Epiphany for 6 and let your opponent choose between WSZ and a land vs 4 other cards, you should have the tools to win no matter what pile they give.
4 Esper Charm
4 Cryptic Command
4 Spell Snare
4 Path to Exile
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Logic Knot
2 Sphinx's Revelation
2 White Sun's Zenith
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Watery Grave
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Ghost Quarter
I doubt there will be many people jumping onto this idea because I myself sure as hell didn't, but I do want to press to goldfish this list a little and always pick the pile you least want.
Telling time with a fetchland is anticipate with options.
Its basically just more versatile.
Looking at anticipate from a scapeshift perspective, (or other similar deck), its easy to see why its better than telling time: a good number of cards in your deck don't matter. At some point, they're either scapeshift or they aren't. If you see scapeshift in the top three, great, take it. If you don't, subjecting yourself to another draw that isn't scapeshift isn't great, if you just want to win.
In esper, however, it doesn't work as much like that. Seeing two cards on top we want is very possible. Especially since we need to hit land drops, you can telling time, grab the path you need, path their guy, and leave the land drop you want to hit on top, then untap and draw it.
Telling time is very mediocre, but its better than anticipate, generally, in my experience. Its another card like think twice. Its not good, but theres nothing better.
Has epiphany been better than something like forbidden alchemy then?
I thought about epiphany in some type of sultai control deck that can utilize the graveyard a lot more, but it just seems somewhat lackluster here.
That being said, its interesting, and I will have to test it out. The struggle is finding time with people who won't choose stupid piles -.-
In a situation where you need to draw a specific bit of gas (like a removal or counter spell), they are equivalent if the card you desire is in your top 3. If the card is not, Anticipate gets you there faster.
I also feel like the bad Telling Times are so much worse than the bad Anticipates. If you cast either and see three equally bad cards (playing against Ad Nauseum game one and you see Supreme Verdict, Condemn, and Supreme Verdict, the Telling Time feels awful.
Needing to have a fetchland to crack in the case that the top card is not something you want to draw is a big strike against it, in my opinion. If you want a card (an answer, likely, in our reactive deck) and you see two in the top 3, I think it is more rare to need two specific cards to get out of a situation as opposed to one specific answer, which Anticipate does better.
In a pure U/W list running 4 fetches, I don't feel like Telling Time has any major advantage over Anticipate. I'd be happy to hear a rebuttal, but digging one card less deep in a vacuum seem worse. If Impulse was modern legal, Anticipate would look atrocious by comparison.
Telling time is too. If you absolutely need a boardwipe, telling time isn't as good. If you're just casting the spell to cycle it, then telling time also sets up your next draw, which is often good, especially early where you can get land drops and such. With a fetchland they're both essentially equal.
As I mentioned above, if you play 8 fetches, TT is better. 6, probably better. If you have 4, maybe not.
Again, telling time is better if you're not desperately digging for an answer.
If you have 3 revs, you also might have a bit more draw power to work with.
As I see it, an early telling time is nearly always better, but a late one can be worse. With the extra rev, this balances out a bit.
That being said, I would probably not run either unless my deck was set up to dig for specific cards (teachings, etc)
I don't think this is relevant. The better telling time is not better enough to make up for the worst one. In the best cast it will be slightly better than anticipate but in the worst case it will kill you. But the discussion really should be do we want this effect at all? I don't think this effect come with the appropriate power level in modern to be warranted in the deck
I'm looking for help on the manabase, it has worked well for me pretty much every game but I am welcome to any suggestions/warnings. I'm also looking for your thoughts on things like MD Detention Sphere. Also, do you think i'm to light/heavey on my counter and card draw?
May as well suggest some sideboard cards too if you want, i'm not the greatest with the sideboard but what I have now is essentially there to improve my matchups against hyper aggro / infect. Also The Blood Baron of Vizkopa is generally an un-used card in most decks but I really like it in a ton of matchups over my batterskull so that will likely stay right where it is.
Thanks in advance guys!
4x Flooded Strand
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Glacial Fortress
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Mystic Gate
1x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
4x Cryptic Command
2x Logic Knot
2x Remand
3x Spell Snare
2x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Think Twice
4x Path to Exile
3x Supreme Verdict
1x Runed Halo
1x Detention Sphere
1x White Sun's Zenith
1x Batterskull
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2x Condemn
2x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Lingering Souls
1x Negate
2x Rest in Peace
1x Spellskite
2x Stony Silence
1x Vendilion Clique
Heavily disagree.
I have not played either outside of teachings, but anticipate always underwhelmed me. Telling time was better in a vast, vast majority of situations.
Perhaps that is abnormal, or is related to the different style of deck, but I'll call it like I see it, and telling time does better.
Do we want it at all? Maybe. Again, I played a different list when I played teachings, that made a cantrip more appealing than just card advantage. If you were not playing with esper charms, but wanted to keep the draw power up, its probably a good choice. In esper, I could see replacing either 2 shadow or 2 remand (depending on your meta) from the original wafo list with 2 TT/anticipate.
I think you want shadow of doubt over remand (better vs elves/tron, since remand doesn't really shine outside of become immense in infect, and a handful of flashback spells from loam/grixis/lingering souls in junk. Remand doesn't shine vs junk, elves, affinity, or fish, and is fairly hit or miss vs infect.
I would suggest playing the fourth spell snare over the mainboard halo as well, since it hits a good number of infect/grixis/fish/affinity cards, with solid targets among the other decks.
The detention sphere is fine, I guess. I've never liked it mainboard, but it could be a lot worse.
I think baneslayer/elspeth is better than blood baron here. 2 Lingering souls sideboard isn't where you want to be. More cliques could be good.
In your meta, play 2 halo side instead of 2 condemn.
I like 2 negate 1 dispel better than the other way around, especially vs tron/loam.
Personally not a fan of spellskite here, since its only relevant vs infect. EE is usually worse than another board wipe.
Celestial purge seems alright, but not fantastic. Disfigure, on the other hand, seems quite good vs infect/elves/affinity, and not bad vs fish.
Night of souls betrayal is also something to consider.
All in all, -2 remand +2 shadow, -1 halo +1 spell snare mainboard.
Sideboard like:
1 elspeth, sun's champion
2 runed halo
1 dispel
2 negate
2 rest in peace
2 stony silence
2 vendilion clique
1 disfigure
There are a few things I agree with CodyX about, but also a few things I don't. Firstly, the things I agree with:
Now for the disagreements:
Other thoughts:
Speaking of Elves/Merfolk, I think you want the 4th wrath in the main or side. It's great against Affinity, Elves, Merfolk, Abzan (because Lingering Souls), and an actual Verdict is an uncounterable answer to Grixis' threats. You may want the 4th wrath to be an actual Wrath of God in the sideboard in case of Thrun from BGx and Elves. I also think you should swap the Mystic Gate for a Polluted Delta or Godless Shrine, since the 3 GQ's will make the draws with both GQ and Gate unkeepable. I also think you could easily support a 2nd Clique in the board for the Tron and Grixis matchups.
I, like many others ahead of me, also think that the Batterskull should be an Elspeth (I've tested this very extensively, myself) because the mana investement to bounce Batterskull for "resilience" isn't worth the lifelink effect. Many times, you slam Elspeth and the following happens: you get an immediate 4-for-one; the board stalls to a complete halt, forcing the opponent to overcommit to the board into a Wrath or just die; and you now have the free time to draw as many cards as you want to while keeping the board clear enough to let Elspeth do her work. When you resolve Batterskull, the likelihood is that they kill the Germ (Vapor Snag, Dismember, Decay, double-bolt, etc), untap and attack, play a threat that you should've been able to counter but can't, and pass back to you -- forcing you to eventually sink 3 more mana into the Skull to get any real value out of it, and putting you behind. Batterskull also just dies to x/5's from Abzan and Grixis.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I'm not trying to be rude, but why would people asking about Think Twice bother you? Yes, it's a common question. Just explain it again and move on.
Again, if this sounds rude, I don't mean it to.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Yeah, it's not so bad. I can just never find room for it in my sideboard. Maybe I should give it a shot again.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Remand is dead against Affinity and Merfolk? Merfolk will drop a lord on turn 2, the majority of games, if you let them. There's also the 40% of games they just don't have vial. Remand is a card to be boarded out against them, but the idea that it will rot in your hand because they don't cast spells isn't real. Considering that the card is working as designed against Eldrazi, referencing the small number of poor matchups for it (which are already 60/40) doesn't make much sense either. Even less so when the card you compare it with is Shadow of Doubt, which in the majority of matchups will burn 2 of your mana early game with absolutely no effect. I know most people aren't cognizant of mana exchanges in the early game, but the same principles of exchange that make Remand a powerful Magic card make Shadow of Doubt only playable when the field is full of decks like Birthing Pod.
Lingering Souls is terrible. You want cheap interaction, draw spells, and large effects that generate large amounts of positional or card advantage. Lingering Souls seems like a Moat-type of effect, but it's just a token generator with Rebound. Every aggro deck is well equipped to play around the tokens, and at 3 mana it's too expensive to qualify as cheap removal. Cards like Night of Soul's Betrayal are the actual effects you want; I think I'd even go up to 4 Baneslayer before playing Lingering Souls.
I would take it a step further and say it's just plain unplayable in Control.
Let's say Jace's Ingenuity is +2 card advantage, and Preordain is +2 filtering. Steam Augury and Epiphany at the Drownyard are like -2 filtering +X card advantage. You have to not give a flying **** what comes off the top of your deck for the cards to be good. These things are templated to not be good for Control, in my opinion. The natural fit for them is the UR tempo decks that do a bunch of "neat" things with cheap spells and Pyromancers or Kiln Fiends.
Against Affinity and Merfolk, so many things are such low cost that Remand doesn't actually delay them, and it's a dead card late game against them. The number of times they play a 2-drop threat on t2 is balanced out by the fact that they have good T1 plays -- Affinity just floods out a bunch of free spells, and Remand doesn't help against Signal Pest or most hands with Mox Opal/Springleaf Drum. Remand is arguably better against Mefolk, but it's still not great -- the fact that they start off on a Vial sometimes is important. Honestly, if they don't have the vial, it's hard for them to win against us anyways. T2 lord seems wrong against Esper, since we have Snare, Logic Knot, and Path to immediately answer it -- plus, they may not even know we're on Esper at this point, so they have to play around Remand/Mana Leak/Bolt regardless. If they wait a turn on the Lord, then they can hold up Spell Pierce and Vapor Snag. (Edit: oh, and Merfolk runs Cavern of Souls too)
About Lingering Souls, I was mainly suggesting that it could be brought in against Grixis and Abzan -- neither are really aggro decks. However, it is true that Souls is a fine option against Elves -- you just block their creatures for a little while to time-walk them into Cryptic-tap or Wrath mana. Late game, Souls also just kills the Elves player while giving you the option to fog more turns if you want to. Against Loam, you have to apply pressure or they'll grind you out. You can win without any pressure (that's what the deck is designed to do), but with a few points a turns, the game closes in on them fairly quickly. Plus, if they run discard/Lili/Raven's Crime, Lingering Souls and Think Twice both stop you from being truly hellbent.
Edit: Thinking about it, though, I don't think it matters which one you play -- they're both bad, and are going to get sided out against the same aggro decks. I think I'd actually play Remand because it's more relevant against the other decks you might play.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
This is my problem right here.
You say think twice should never be cut, its important to the deck. We need to draw cards.
All those cantrips wafo-tapo played? the remands? the shadows? yea those aren't core, they can be cut. But the think twices? oh no.
A good number of us have advocated against playing more mainboard removal. Do we not even need to explain why its bad and why you shouldn't be cutting cantrips for it?
You should learn to read our opinions on it before making changes.
That is probably up for most useless/obnoxious comments I've made, but I honestly think it has to be said.
You aren't the end all be all expert here.
You think bearscape (who has been in here before) just looked at the card, and decided to post how good it was without ever playing the deck, without any understanding of format? Maybe. Its possible, but unlikely. Chances are a lot better that maybe its just better than you give it credit for. Its interesting. Your reaction should be "Oh, I should try this out" and not "oh thats stupid you don't know what you're talking about".
Personally, batterskull is a better mainboard card than elspeth.
Elspeth is either unbeatable, or terrible depending on the matchups. Batterskull is much more moderate.
Kolaghan's command isn't a reason to not play batterskull. Dark confidant dies to nearly every single removal spell in the deck, and at best, trades with nearly every creature, and its not too difficult to kill him before he gives and value. Its no insight comment to say that he's good. Kolaghan's command is much less common.
Batterskull, like elspeth, is best played as a followup to a boardwipe. Batterskull has the advantage of gaining life, and coming down a turn earlier. On top of that, its fairly difficult to completely remove. While they can just kill the germ and continue to hit you, you're probably in a spot where a, you shouldn't have played batterskull, or b, you don't have anything else to play (just trying to get a boardwipe) and it doesn't really matter.
Elspeth looks quite poor against nearly every combo deck, as well as decks like BW tokens, affinity, infect, and even burn to a lesser extent.
As for maelstrom pulse, it kills elspeth too, and while leaving behind 3 1/1s is something, its not why you tapped out on turn 6.
Remand isn't 100% dead vs fish (if I had t1 vial every game, I don't think I'd be playing esper), but its not an ideal card.
My experience vs loam is that remanding flashback spells is good, loam is obviously reasonable depending on what spot they're in, and remanding their enchantments is also good (as they tend to be the cards you care the most about).
I actually like baneslayer vs abzan a lot, since it does beat a huge amount of their creatures while gaining you life.
Its sometimes a bit awkward to tap out for, but I would usually still board it in.
If you've ever condemned an Ezuri, doesn't feel so great.
Condemn is fine against elves, but terrible when you absolutely need it.
I also prefer to fight over infect's creatures not in combat. Condemn is fine against them, but not better than disfigure.
Personally, I would almost never mainboard halo (its expensive for sorcery speed removal), but two side is a nice place to be at.
You make good points though.
There is an explanation of think twice found on the first post of the thread, for those curious.
Cipher is right about remand, but wrong about souls I think.
Just tossing some souls into your sideboard isn't great, but its not terrible.
At worst, it can chump and save you a ton of life while looking for a boardwipe, and if it can discourage attacks/pile to kill a dude or two, again not the worst.
I wouldn't play them in the sideboard of a deck that otherwise doesn't play them, but you could.
On remand, its not a dead card, but its not great. Being able to remand a cranial plating, then untap and wrath is great. It should be sided out, but its not literally dead, it just sort of cycles.
Again on epiphany, have you guys tried it yet? Bearscape does seem to have played with it some, and that alone is worth more than any amount of speculation. Even he mentioned his surprise. It doesn't look playable, but good cards looking bad during spoiler season is no new story in magic.
T2 lord (or harbinger, or silvergill) isn't exactly wrong against esper. Fish have to put bodies into play to win, and you have to kill them to win. A lot of fish will be fried, no matter how it goes. Ideally, the lords should be saved, but the fish player doesn't always have that hand.
Remand still cycles vs cavern too. Again, side them out, but its not a dead card, just also not a good one.