Hi everyone! I'm fairly knew to magic in general, having started standard with the release of DTK. Started looking at Modern when Jace came out and I realized my control deck would only really work with him *grumbles about price*. I was looking for a control deck and found this and instantly fell in love with it. It's my idea of what control should be (though I do like tap-out too). I've played it for the last couple of months on cockatrice, however I'm planning on finally building this deck at the end of the month, payday allowing. I would like some advice on my list, especially the sideboard as I'll be going to my LGS FNM pretty much blind in terms of the local meta. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated, loving the thread so far, hope to be more than a lurker in future (once I've got some paper games under my belt).
Mainboard:
-2x Glacial Fortress, -1x Island --> +1x Drowned Catacomb, +1x Mystic Gate, +1x Godless Shrine
-1x Logic Knot, -2x Shadow of Doubt --> +2x Remand, +1x Condemn
-1x Gideon Jura --> +1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion (moving it in from the side)
Sideboard:
-2x Celestial Purge, -1x Pulse of the Fields, -1x Elspeth (again, to the main) --> +2x Ghostly Prison, +1x Condemn, +1x Baneslayer (2 Slayers total)
I actually like your list a lot, these are just my personal preferences. Your list is very good, especialy considering you're pretty new. Gratz on finding the best format (Modern, duh) and the best deck (IMO)! I'm not biased at all. =D
Thanks for the input guys, I've swapped a logic knot for a condemn because I just can't bring myself to add remands, I've tried them before and just prefer the shadow of doubts, especially against the Eldrazi threat. Any particular reason to replace Gideon with Elspeth? Also, why godless shrine, not sure about another non blue source due to the GQ's. Not suggesting the changes aren't good, just want to understand why you suggest them for future reference.
Thanks for the input guys, I've swapped a logic knot for a condemn because I just can't bring myself to add remands, I've tried them before and just prefer the shadow of doubts, especially against the Eldrazi threat. Any particular reason to replace Gideon with Elspeth? Also, why godless shrine, not sure about another non blue source due to the GQ's. Not suggesting the changes aren't good, just want to understand why you suggest them for future reference.
Elspeth just does Gideon's job better -- Gideon is weak to removal, can only remove one guy at a time, and doens't really generate any real card advantage. Elspeth creates an auto 4:1 once it resolves, wipes the board when you want it to, and can't be hit by Path or Terminate.
As for Godless Shrine, there have been many occasions when I needed to get that land in particular from a fetch. Once you have 2 UW sources (Foutnain + Colonnade is common) and a Watery Grave, the next logical fetch target is a Godless Shrine to hedge against LD on your black or white sources. Shrine lets you play through a Choke or Boil, and lets you get black mana without preventing you from setting up a WSZ. I always find it useful, and the number of times when I'm glad to see it far outweigh the chances it color screws you -- especially in tandem with Mystic Gate, which helps to prevent any issues. Having both a Gate and a Shrine on the field among other lands feels great, and it happens a lot more than you'd think.
I like Remand as another T2 counter, especially against Tron and Eldrazi. Without it, you're at the mercy of their T3 plays on the draw, which usually can't be Spell Snared. A third Logic Knot and only 1x Remand is something I've considered, but I'm too paranoid of graveyard issues to actually try it out.
As for sideboard stuff, Purge isn't very good right now since BGx and Blood Moon are gone for the most part. Pulse is a little too narrow in an open field, and Elspeth is a great mainboard card. Ghostly Prison is great against aggro (not Infect) and Drazi, since it slows them down a significant amount, another Condemn is good against aggro and especially Infect, and the second Baneslayer is good and more consistent than just the 1.
Okay, thank you for explaining the changes, I'm still not entirely sold on remand, but I might just be using it wrong, I don't like giving my opponents to the card back, even if it does set then one turn back early game, may require more testing.
What you said about godless shrine and mystic gate makes sense and I will make those changes, I'm not sold on ghostly prison due to tapping out, but I will give it a go.
How are most people dealing with eldrazi, is runed halo still being run for thought knot? What's the best way to learn to play less aggressively (I always seem to path too early).
I realise I'm asking lots of questions, just want to be the most prepared for my first paper showing (since I did so badly at standard).
I personally wouldn't run Godless Shrine unless you have a BB spell in your deck, like Curse of Death's Hold. No comment on Mystic Gate, other than I've never felt having blue mana was a big issue. Glacial Fortress and Drowned Catacomb play around Choke the same (not that that's a huge consideration). My manabase looks like:
Personally I've never liked remand at all in an esper deck. I much prefer a single deprive or an extra knot if I feel the need for more 2 mana counters. On mystic gate, It's a perfectly fine card, but I would never run it in addition to two other colorless lands because it leads to far too many difficult hands of 4 great spells, ghost quarter, gate, basic that would be a snap keep if the gate was literally any other dual we have access to. In the side I cannot sing enough praise for vendillion clique, in the matches where you want it, the card is phenomenal and the only reason I'm not paying two copies is because I'm cheap O.o
I'm still going to remain in favor of playing a godless shrine even if you have no double black spells or filters in your deck because of the flexibility it gives us in fetching when we want to set up triple white for a zenith while sill playing around a tec edge or GQ on our lone black source if we want. For a SB card against burn I much more prefer either a timely reinforcements because it has wider applications and is just as good and can be much better if they're on a creature heavy list or a COP: Red if you just want to give burn players a big middle finger.
For the eldrazi match, I just don't bother altering my list for it because it's 100% getting banned in a few weeks and we'll have to reevaluate then anyways and in all honesty it's the deck that everyone should be playing until then if they can. Sadness.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
Personally I've never liked remand at all in an esper deck. I much prefer a single deprive or an extra knot if I feel the need for more 2 mana counters. On mystic gate, It's a perfectly fine card, but I would never run it in addition to two other colorless lands because it leads to far too many difficult hands of 4 great spells, ghost quarter, gate, basic that would be a snap keep if the gate was literally any other dual we have access to. In the side I cannot sing enough praise for vendillion clique, in the matches where you want it, the card is phenomenal and the only reason I'm not paying two copies is because I'm cheap O.o
I'm still going to remain in favor of playing a godless shrine even if you have no double black spells or filters in your deck because of the flexibility it gives us in fetching when we want to set up triple white for a zenith while sill playing around a tec edge or GQ on our lone black source if we want. For a SB card against burn I much more prefer either a timely reinforcements because it has wider applications and is just as good and can be much better if they're on a creature heavy list or a COP: Red if you just want to give burn players a big middle finger.
For the eldrazi match, I just don't bother altering my list for it because it's 100% getting banned in a few weeks and we'll have to reevaluate then anyways and in all honesty it's the deck that everyone should be playing until then if they can. Sadness.
It's possible that those t2 counters are better, but I haven't tested it. I've used Derive in the past as a 1-of and I liked it, but it doesn't really serve well as an option for t2 since it sets us behind significantly that early in the game. Another Knot isn't something I haven't tried, but I'll test it out (probably today at SNM).
About tuning lists against Eldrazi, I feel like we have to make changes to remain competitive, even if it's just for a few weeks. I'm not sure about your shops, but at my LGS there are at least 2 guys on UW Eldrazi (soon to be 3), and they always make it into top 4 territory. I have been able to beat both UW and Colorless (just after the pro tour) with tuning and testing, but otherwise I wouldn't be placing (most likely). If you don't see any Drazi at a local level, then fine; don't change anything. But you need to do something if you see Drazi on a regular basis.
I still don't like tap out lists personally. They're not so much better against the fair lists than a pure control build that it's not worth considering for that reason. And against the unfair decks while we do gain a clock, it's still incredibly insignificant compared to what we'd actually need for the significant loss of interaction to be justified. If you're just aching for a "proactive" deck then build a midrange deck or work on a geist shell, trying to mix and match strategies, especially with defensive counter magic, just about always results in you playing a worse version of another deck.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
Okay, thank you for explaining the changes, I'm still not entirely sold on remand, but I might just be using it wrong, I don't like giving my opponents to the card back, even if it does set then one turn back early game, may require more testing.
What you said about godless shrine and mystic gate makes sense and I will make those changes, I'm not sold on ghostly prison due to tapping out, but I will give it a go.
How are most people dealing with eldrazi, is runed halo still being run for thought knot? What's the best way to learn to play less aggressively (I always seem to path too early).
I realise I'm asking lots of questions, just want to be the most prepared for my first paper showing (since I did so badly at standard).
Timely verdicts and ghost quarters deal with eldrazi fine. Eldrazi is like a duper jund deck and you play against it the same. Thd only difference is the random explosive start with mimic vats snd end game eye (almost unbeatable if you cannot deal with it). Otherwise the deck is not too hard to beat and we should be hsppy the rest of the decks pushed tron out.
Just a couple of thoughts, born from experience--small sample size and player skill/preparedness is a thing. Most of you with the lists that are pushing tap-out or mill directions probably have had some success at a local level, and I don't knock that at all. You're also looking at a small N for sample size, in a very small metagame, with opponents who don't likely know what's up. In a larger event, like a GP, that is not the case. You WILL run into the consistency issues over the course of a 2-day event, and you will probably discover (if you take good notes and review them) that over the course of a few weeks, you frequently end up sitting on awkward mixes of cryptic commands and lingering souls, or mill spells with no answers.
I REALLY REALLY REALLY recommend anyone "new" to the deck (as in, started posting within the last month or two) really take the time to put in ONE HUNDRED games with the original wafo-tapa mainboard spells, 34 for 34. This also applies if you've been a lurker for a while but haven't started posting or been playing lists that are very close. The reason for this is that the deck is a consistency engine. I'm currently playing with FOUR cards different from the original 34, no remands and no shadow of doubt, and I really notice the difference in digging power in pretty much every match I play with it. Just goldfishing a few games with the deck is NOT going to give you a good idea with how it really functions and what cards are good/bad and why they're in there. I've been keeping track, and up until eldrazi started taking over the format, most successful lists (as in, IQ's/1k's level success, not FNM'ers) were within 2-3 cards of the original wafo tapa mainboard, and generally within 68-70/75 of the original 75 (flavors of manabase and wrath choices aside). In a healthy metagame, the original list is so powerful because there is no matchup that is truly unwinnable, even if a couple aren't anywhere near good. Doing things like changing the win-con, adding other win cons, and messing with the draw/go structure break that, and you won't notice the difference if you have no idea how the original, well-oiled machine worked. Just because your list is winning doesn't mean it's "good"--as we all know from school and sports, it's possible to perform decently on things and still not have an acceptable or good overall result.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I'm not usually one to jump onto a bandwagon, but this looks somewhat playable.
It's quite playable. The 3 life part stings a bit, but it's instant speed and exiles. Would be nice if it hits lands but we know that's too powerful for modern-era WoTC. Very glad it's even this good.
"He plays in a walk in humidor so keep his foils from bending. He once kept an all land hand just to know what it felt like to be mana flooded. He uses power nine for ante. He is the most interesting magic playing in the world." Old man, "I don't always tap basic lands for mana, but when i do, I tap Gurus."
I'm not usually one to jump onto a bandwagon, but this looks somewhat playable.
It's quite playable. The 3 life part stings a bit, but it's instant speed and exiles. Would be nice if it hits lands but we know that's too powerful for modern-era WoTC. Very glad it's even this good.
It's also the Game Day Top 8 promo:
The 3 life definitely stings. Either potentially a sideboard card or we need a way to offset the life loss due to how much life we lose from our mana bases in modern.
I'm not usually one to jump onto a bandwagon, but this looks somewhat playable.
It's quite playable. The 3 life part stings a bit, but it's instant speed and exiles. Would be nice if it hits lands but we know that's too powerful for modern-era WoTC. Very glad it's even this good.
It's also the Game Day Top 8 promo:
The 3 life definitely stings. Either potentially a sideboard card or we need a way to offset the life loss due to how much life we lose from our mana bases in modern.
I think it's still a 1 or 2 of in the mainboard, potentially with the 2nd copy in the sideboard. I think the upside of having access to that unconditional (aside from lands) removal at instant speed counters the downside of the 3 life. You won't want it in the burn matchup and likely not in the aggro matchups in general, but that's where you sideboard it out. Having access to it for Jund to deal with Liliana, or other midrange decks...it's just a catchall.
"He plays in a walk in humidor so keep his foils from bending. He once kept an all land hand just to know what it felt like to be mana flooded. He uses power nine for ante. He is the most interesting magic playing in the world." Old man, "I don't always tap basic lands for mana, but when i do, I tap Gurus."
This adds a 3 life cost in exchange for instant speed.
The only question is WHERE in the 75 do these fit, and whether it's 1 main/1 side or 2 side. No way in hell I'm rolling without two of these. This is the catchall we've been waiting for, and this might be the card that pushes esper draw-go over the edge and into solid contention.
I say this having tested extensively with council's judgement just to see what it would do.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
"He plays in a walk in humidor so keep his foils from bending. He once kept an all land hand just to know what it felt like to be mana flooded. He uses power nine for ante. He is the most interesting magic playing in the world." Old man, "I don't always tap basic lands for mana, but when i do, I tap Gurus."
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I'd play it with the following changes:
Mainboard:
-2x Glacial Fortress, -1x Island --> +1x Drowned Catacomb, +1x Mystic Gate, +1x Godless Shrine
-1x Logic Knot, -2x Shadow of Doubt --> +2x Remand, +1x Condemn
-1x Gideon Jura --> +1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion (moving it in from the side)
Sideboard:
-2x Celestial Purge, -1x Pulse of the Fields, -1x Elspeth (again, to the main) --> +2x Ghostly Prison, +1x Condemn, +1x Baneslayer (2 Slayers total)
I actually like your list a lot, these are just my personal preferences. Your list is very good, especialy considering you're pretty new. Gratz on finding the best format (Modern, duh) and the best deck (IMO)! I'm not biased at all. =D
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Elspeth just does Gideon's job better -- Gideon is weak to removal, can only remove one guy at a time, and doens't really generate any real card advantage. Elspeth creates an auto 4:1 once it resolves, wipes the board when you want it to, and can't be hit by Path or Terminate.
As for Godless Shrine, there have been many occasions when I needed to get that land in particular from a fetch. Once you have 2 UW sources (Foutnain + Colonnade is common) and a Watery Grave, the next logical fetch target is a Godless Shrine to hedge against LD on your black or white sources. Shrine lets you play through a Choke or Boil, and lets you get black mana without preventing you from setting up a WSZ. I always find it useful, and the number of times when I'm glad to see it far outweigh the chances it color screws you -- especially in tandem with Mystic Gate, which helps to prevent any issues. Having both a Gate and a Shrine on the field among other lands feels great, and it happens a lot more than you'd think.
I like Remand as another T2 counter, especially against Tron and Eldrazi. Without it, you're at the mercy of their T3 plays on the draw, which usually can't be Spell Snared. A third Logic Knot and only 1x Remand is something I've considered, but I'm too paranoid of graveyard issues to actually try it out.
As for sideboard stuff, Purge isn't very good right now since BGx and Blood Moon are gone for the most part. Pulse is a little too narrow in an open field, and Elspeth is a great mainboard card. Ghostly Prison is great against aggro (not Infect) and Drazi, since it slows them down a significant amount, another Condemn is good against aggro and especially Infect, and the second Baneslayer is good and more consistent than just the 1.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
What you said about godless shrine and mystic gate makes sense and I will make those changes, I'm not sold on ghostly prison due to tapping out, but I will give it a go.
How are most people dealing with eldrazi, is runed halo still being run for thought knot? What's the best way to learn to play less aggressively (I always seem to path too early).
I realise I'm asking lots of questions, just want to be the most prepared for my first paper showing (since I did so badly at standard).
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Watery Grave
1 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Ghost Quarter
I'm still going to remain in favor of playing a godless shrine even if you have no double black spells or filters in your deck because of the flexibility it gives us in fetching when we want to set up triple white for a zenith while sill playing around a tec edge or GQ on our lone black source if we want. For a SB card against burn I much more prefer either a timely reinforcements because it has wider applications and is just as good and can be much better if they're on a creature heavy list or a COP: Red if you just want to give burn players a big middle finger.
For the eldrazi match, I just don't bother altering my list for it because it's 100% getting banned in a few weeks and we'll have to reevaluate then anyways and in all honesty it's the deck that everyone should be playing until then if they can. Sadness.
It's possible that those t2 counters are better, but I haven't tested it. I've used Derive in the past as a 1-of and I liked it, but it doesn't really serve well as an option for t2 since it sets us behind significantly that early in the game. Another Knot isn't something I haven't tried, but I'll test it out (probably today at SNM).
About tuning lists against Eldrazi, I feel like we have to make changes to remain competitive, even if it's just for a few weeks. I'm not sure about your shops, but at my LGS there are at least 2 guys on UW Eldrazi (soon to be 3), and they always make it into top 4 territory. I have been able to beat both UW and Colorless (just after the pro tour) with tuning and testing, but otherwise I wouldn't be placing (most likely). If you don't see any Drazi at a local level, then fine; don't change anything. But you need to do something if you see Drazi on a regular basis.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
4 Dragonlord Ojutai
4 Snapcaster Mage
Instant 19
3 Cryptic Command
4 Silumgar's Scorn
1 Pact of Negation
4 Path to Exile
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Nameless Inversion
4 Esper Charm
Sorcery 8
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
2 Darkslick Shores
1 River of Tears
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Tolaria West
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Calciform Pools
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Timely Reinforcements
3 Stony Silence
2 Shadow of Doubt
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Disenchant
1 Dispel
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Leyline of the Void
I have one suggestion to play "only" 2 or 3 snap and play 2-3 spell snare, what do you think of this version?
Timely verdicts and ghost quarters deal with eldrazi fine. Eldrazi is like a duper jund deck and you play against it the same. Thd only difference is the random explosive start with mimic vats snd end game eye (almost unbeatable if you cannot deal with it). Otherwise the deck is not too hard to beat and we should be hsppy the rest of the decks pushed tron out.
Just a couple of thoughts, born from experience--small sample size and player skill/preparedness is a thing. Most of you with the lists that are pushing tap-out or mill directions probably have had some success at a local level, and I don't knock that at all. You're also looking at a small N for sample size, in a very small metagame, with opponents who don't likely know what's up. In a larger event, like a GP, that is not the case. You WILL run into the consistency issues over the course of a 2-day event, and you will probably discover (if you take good notes and review them) that over the course of a few weeks, you frequently end up sitting on awkward mixes of cryptic commands and lingering souls, or mill spells with no answers.
I REALLY REALLY REALLY recommend anyone "new" to the deck (as in, started posting within the last month or two) really take the time to put in ONE HUNDRED games with the original wafo-tapa mainboard spells, 34 for 34. This also applies if you've been a lurker for a while but haven't started posting or been playing lists that are very close. The reason for this is that the deck is a consistency engine. I'm currently playing with FOUR cards different from the original 34, no remands and no shadow of doubt, and I really notice the difference in digging power in pretty much every match I play with it. Just goldfishing a few games with the deck is NOT going to give you a good idea with how it really functions and what cards are good/bad and why they're in there. I've been keeping track, and up until eldrazi started taking over the format, most successful lists (as in, IQ's/1k's level success, not FNM'ers) were within 2-3 cards of the original wafo tapa mainboard, and generally within 68-70/75 of the original 75 (flavors of manabase and wrath choices aside). In a healthy metagame, the original list is so powerful because there is no matchup that is truly unwinnable, even if a couple aren't anywhere near good. Doing things like changing the win-con, adding other win cons, and messing with the draw/go structure break that, and you won't notice the difference if you have no idea how the original, well-oiled machine worked. Just because your list is winning doesn't mean it's "good"--as we all know from school and sports, it's possible to perform decently on things and still not have an acceptable or good overall result.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I'm not usually one to jump onto a bandwagon, but this looks somewhat playable.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
It's quite playable. The 3 life part stings a bit, but it's instant speed and exiles. Would be nice if it hits lands but we know that's too powerful for modern-era WoTC. Very glad it's even this good.
It's also the Game Day Top 8 promo:
The 3 life definitely stings. Either potentially a sideboard card or we need a way to offset the life loss due to how much life we lose from our mana bases in modern.
I think it's still a 1 or 2 of in the mainboard, potentially with the 2nd copy in the sideboard. I think the upside of having access to that unconditional (aside from lands) removal at instant speed counters the downside of the 3 life. You won't want it in the burn matchup and likely not in the aggro matchups in general, but that's where you sideboard it out. Having access to it for Jund to deal with Liliana, or other midrange decks...it's just a catchall.
This adds a 3 life cost in exchange for instant speed.
The only question is WHERE in the 75 do these fit, and whether it's 1 main/1 side or 2 side. No way in hell I'm rolling without two of these. This is the catchall we've been waiting for, and this might be the card that pushes esper draw-go over the edge and into solid contention.
I say this having tested extensively with council's judgement just to see what it would do.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.