If you want another finisher the best options (at least in the main) are gideon jura, elspeth 6, and grave titan. I don't like wurmcoil since path is still popular and so is K.Command to make batterskull elss attractive. I've taken to running an elspeth in the main and a titan in the side personally since I've just never liked gideon in face of path.
I agree about Gideon, and Elspeth seems really strong so maybe mainboard her like you say and Grave Titan in the side. Which matchups is Grave Titan the guy you bring in?
I bring in the gravy train for any of the mid range matches or when I need to finish the game asap. Decks like burn that is hard to have full control on it ends the game in two attacks which is sweet. Also If they cast a maelstrom pulse or something similar that would kill a walker the titan still leaves behind blockers. Also if time on the round is running short the fact that he ends the game so FAST can help you eek out a win with no time left on the clock. Usually it just takes a single cryptic to tap to get a lethal swing through with a colonnade assist.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
Yea that makes a lot of sense. Going to time could suck so a fast win is ideal sometimes.
I'm reading a lot of analysis, brainstorming a lot, and playing some matches and I'm just not really convinced this deck can stand up to such fast aggro. Admittedly I'm very new to the deck so that definitely has an impact but for you guys who are very experienced and have played a lot of matches in the last month is the deck really strong enough to compete? Admittedly I'll never take this to a PT or even a GP because my area will never host them so FNM and PTQ and maybe some GPTs are the highest level I'll ever play this. The people in my area are extremely competitive however and are PT players so my field is high level at least. Thoughts?
Thank you so much for Appearing on the Forum lol, as far as the Eldrazi Match ups how did those games play out?
Do we need a 4th Wrath in the Main? What was the Sideboard Plan vs Eldrazi? Sorry for Thoughtseizing lol.
Given the fact that in my heart I really believe that Eldrazi will be banned in some way in a few months, would it be beneficial to buy this deck anyways and just try to get games in to practice, dodge the matchup and jam this deck anyway? If eldrazi leaves the format later on this deck would be better positioned no?
I just don't have a ton of money and am super wary of wasting it on a deck that it totally unplayable in the long run
Given the fact that in my heart I really believe that Eldrazi will be banned in some way in a few months, would it be beneficial to buy this deck anyways and just try to get games in to practice, dodge the matchup and jam this deck anyway? If eldrazi leaves the format later on this deck would be better positioned no?
I just don't have a ton of money and am super wary of wasting it on a deck that it totally unplayable in the long run
Iv'e been With this deck since November of 2014, It all comes down to what you love to play, and for me I love playing Control and Drawing Cards and wiping the Board. So Esper Control stuck to me.
Even when I First put together my Make shift copy of "Esper Control" I Loved it. Archaeomancer and Planar Cleansing were the cards I had Access to and I still Loved playing the deck.
Sure it was terribly slow and inefficient but I Strived to play the way I wanted to,which was to Play cards like Cancel and Divination and then a Winning Condition Like Aetherling.
To me it was worth spending Every penny To make the List I Have today. Sure it took around 1 1/2 Year to make and get all the cards needed, But it was worth it cause I had such a Strong Connection with the Play-style of Control. For me the Objective was not Winning, But most importantly Not Losing. If I could last to Turn 12 and up I knew the game was going to be good and in my "Control".
I've even Built the Deck on MTGO, cause that's how much I Love Countering Spells and Drawing Cards. Sure the price tag is big but what is the Price tag of Endless Fun?
Shout out to Archaeomancer for being my Budget Snapcaster mage!
my advice would be : don't try to beat eldrazi. I have tried a lot in the past few days, and it seems that you just can't beat it while having a chance to win against the other unfair decks (that are trying to beat eldrazi)
baneslayer is good until they draw dismember or oblivion sower. if you get lucky enough to survive until turn 5.
the combination of turn 1-2 pressure + thoughtknot + risk of 5/5 haste in the face for the rest of the game + some sort of inevitability is not beatable by a control deck in modern
I agree. I haven't changed my deck at all because why bother? I played against a red green Eldrazi deck and managed to beat it. It was running the usual stuff just splashing for bolt and ancient stirrings. I've been spending most of my time playing Teachings in pauper after the PT. That format is actually stable and killing people with Evincar's Justice is hilarious. Overall the Eldrazi match ups are terrible. The only good thing about the Eldrazi meta is that people are bringing back blue moon. I feel that match up is in our favor.
Like I said a few posts back, just expect to lose a lot to Eldrazi decks. Don't warp your deck to beat them. When your decks overall strategy is really bad against a deck, it's difficult to tweak your deck enough to tilt the odds in your favor.
Given the fact that in my heart I really believe that Eldrazi will be banned in some way in a few months, would it be beneficial to buy this deck anyways and just try to get games in to practice, dodge the matchup and jam this deck anyway? If eldrazi leaves the format later on this deck would be better positioned no?
I just don't have a ton of money and am super wary of wasting it on a deck that it totally unplayable in the long run
Iv'e been With this deck since November of 2014, It all comes down to what you love to play, and for me I love playing Control and Drawing Cards and wiping the Board. So Esper Control stuck to me.
Even when I First put together my Make shift copy of "Esper Control" I Loved it. Archaeomancer and Planar Cleansing were the cards I had Access to and I still Loved playing the deck.
Sure it was terribly slow and inefficient but I Strived to play the way I wanted to,which was to Play cards like Cancel and Divination and then a Winning Condition Like Aetherling.
To me it was worth spending Every penny To make the List I Have today. Sure it took around 1 1/2 Year to make and get all the cards needed, But it was worth it cause I had such a Strong Connection with the Play-style of Control. For me the Objective was not Winning, But most importantly Not Losing. If I could last to Turn 12 and up I knew the game was going to be good and in my "Control".
I've even Built the Deck on MTGO, cause that's how much I Love Countering Spells and Drawing Cards. Sure the price tag is big but what is the Price tag of Endless Fun?
Shout out to Archaeomancer for being my Budget Snapcaster mage!
I want to thank you for really getting at what makes magic fun. This is why I want to build this deck because I really identify with this play style. You guys have pointed out why it's important to play what you love and I agree.
hey guys
even though the theory of hard control with wrath seems decent against eldrazi, it still can't compete
there is no reliable hate and the deck is just too fast for our game plan and for the format as a whole. their late game, while being something we can in theory overpower, isn't beatable post board because of oblivion sower.
I dodged the bullets in the ptq by playing against only 2 eldrazi (1 of which was playing like a 2 year old and he still ended up in the top8 lol) because people were still playing their usual decks. lost to the uw midrange in last round because he drew 2 rev's while I didn't find any in my top 30 cards (game1) and game2 he drew 7 sideboard cards to my 0
another (probably the most important) issue : jund and junk are out of the meta..
So, was the problem really that the threat density of the deck is too high, and there's no chokepoints you can focus like with Affinity? You can ignore everything and Spell Pierce the Plating, and they don't draw Thoughtseizes like the previous versions, so we can't just draw spells early on against them. At least that's what I'm getting from your post. We normally only run 7 removal spells in the entire deck, and rely on the draw engine to scale. You're only supposed to draw a single removal spell in your opener with this deck, but with the Cavern of Souls cheese making their entire deck uncounterable, I can see how that's not enough. Or you're so low by the time you Verdict that you're just dead to Reality Smasher.
I think I'm still running this deck at the GP next month. I guess I'll know after I've played a few games against the new deck myself. I feel like people felt the same way playing Control v. the Tron and big Eldrazi decks; they gave up on matchups instead of fundamentally changing their gameplan post-board. I'd like to at least see how the Verdict plan performs when backed by at least the full 8 spot removal spells you would expect out of a control deck in the Standard format:
That deck technically had Azorious Charms, Detention Sphere, etc., but the core of 6-8 Doom Blade effects + 4 Wrath is was central. I never bothered to apply this logic to Modern Esper, but that was before a mono-creature swarm Top 8 at the PT. With maindeck graveyard hate, plus Chalice of the Void, I'm not sure combo is ever coming back before this thing is banned. It looked to me like the entire day 2 of the PT was warped, and that only decks with high threat density and zero interaction could compete with Eldrazi. If Modern is going to look a lot like Standard with every deck having 24+ creatures than I don't see why we can't adjust. Perhaps Jund isn't dead; people may just be trying to find what creatures to run in place of the Thoughtseizes...
Now I didn't get any feedback on this card before but what about Magus of the Tabernacle? Seems pretty good and blocks not too bad either
It has the same problem that most, if not all, utility creatures have. The opponent is going to be choking on removal spells with zero targets. Playing the magus turns their dead cards into action. Remember that control decks thrive on card advantage and turning a portion of your opponent's deck into cards with zero text is also card advantage. That's why the only creatures we play are ones where the body is irrelevant. Things like snapcaster and clique do something important the moment they resolve and if they survive that's cool, but if not that's cool too. Also being a creature it dies to our sweepers and if we drop it down against a horde of dorks they can just pay for them and keep swinging forcing us to wrath anyway. This doesn't exactly apply to things like WSZ Kittie tokens or lingering souls tokens because they're too wide for removal to matter and cluttering up the board is what they do allowing us to durdle with draw spells to find a wrath.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
I've been testing with this List online vs Eldrazi and I find it slightly better than lists I would run Deck List
It's probably not a good Idea to Change the Main So Much so you guys may Exclude this post but The Inclusion of a 4th wrath and Two Dawn Charms Really Help out in the Match up to Stall till a Wrath or a Verdict.
I've Done testing with Batwing Brumes Instead of the Dawn Charms and they don't Help when you're getting Inquisitioned or Thoughtseized where as Dawn Charm Does.
Basically, Permission Spells is 11, Draw Spells is 10, Removal is 8, and Utility is 2.
I examined 4 Lists and their Draw/Permission/Removal Ratios and that is where I found the Slots to fit in the Dawn Charms.
All three Modes could Prove Potential, Countering a Thoughtseize, Regenerating a Dying Colonnade, Fogging a turn.
It's all still just Testing and tweaking, it's no where near a Definite keep in this list. Just something to provide a "Quick Fix" for our match-up vs Eldrazi.
I Know Tweaking the main just for one deck is terrible especially when the deck we are tweaking against will be long gone in a few months.
Also the Side board is just cards I'm still fiddling around with like the Condemns and Doom Blade.
EDIT:Mana Leak was also added in the place of Remand, I want more early "Hard Counters" where Remand could help us Dig closer to wraths or Lands but it is all Still Testing
and may just end up reverting back to Remand over Mana Leak
[quote from="Malt_Meister »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/571123-modern-esper-draw-go?comment=5211"]
Shout out to Archaeomancer for being my Budget Snapcaster mage!
*AIRHORN NOISES*
I am also building this deck on a budget (Shout out to ZDEATHBLOW for making it! *MOAR AIRHORN NOISES*), and I don't care about the current meta. I'm gonna be countering and killing crap all day!
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
Shout out to Archaeomancer for being my Budget Snapcaster mage!
*AIRHORN NOISES*
I am also building this deck on a budget (Shout out to ZDEATHBLOW for making it! *MOAR AIRHORN NOISES*), and I don't care about the current meta. I'm gonna be countering and killing crap all day![/quote]</blockquote>
Amen, brother!
EDIT: I just messed up my qoute. I feel like an idiot. Stupid baby steps!
If there was a decent fog with draw a card as a mode I'd be slightly more interested.
It's worth testing in this meta I suppose, though.
Angelsong
Took a bit of researching but there is something, I'll give it some testing.
I actually forgot that card existed! I will definitely test it out if either of my metas get more aggressive. I also like the Dawn Charms as well, but if I played them, it would most likely be in the sideboard since I can't cantrip it away if it is a dead card like Angelsong.
EDIT: turns out I was just being stupid.... It would appear that i CAN qoute. And I apologize if any of you find this annoying.
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I was gonna give porphyry nodes a shot in the side.
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
I bring in the gravy train for any of the mid range matches or when I need to finish the game asap. Decks like burn that is hard to have full control on it ends the game in two attacks which is sweet. Also If they cast a maelstrom pulse or something similar that would kill a walker the titan still leaves behind blockers. Also if time on the round is running short the fact that he ends the game so FAST can help you eek out a win with no time left on the clock. Usually it just takes a single cryptic to tap to get a lethal swing through with a colonnade assist.
I'm reading a lot of analysis, brainstorming a lot, and playing some matches and I'm just not really convinced this deck can stand up to such fast aggro. Admittedly I'm very new to the deck so that definitely has an impact but for you guys who are very experienced and have played a lot of matches in the last month is the deck really strong enough to compete? Admittedly I'll never take this to a PT or even a GP because my area will never host them so FNM and PTQ and maybe some GPTs are the highest level I'll ever play this. The people in my area are extremely competitive however and are PT players so my field is high level at least. Thoughts?
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
Do we need a 4th Wrath in the Main? What was the Sideboard Plan vs Eldrazi? Sorry for Thoughtseizing lol.
Twitch Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/qtwelve
Given the fact that in my heart I really believe that Eldrazi will be banned in some way in a few months, would it be beneficial to buy this deck anyways and just try to get games in to practice, dodge the matchup and jam this deck anyway? If eldrazi leaves the format later on this deck would be better positioned no?
I just don't have a ton of money and am super wary of wasting it on a deck that it totally unplayable in the long run
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
Iv'e been With this deck since November of 2014, It all comes down to what you love to play, and for me I love playing Control and Drawing Cards and wiping the Board. So Esper Control stuck to me.
Even when I First put together my Make shift copy of "Esper Control" I Loved it. Archaeomancer and Planar Cleansing were the cards I had Access to and I still Loved playing the deck.
Sure it was terribly slow and inefficient but I Strived to play the way I wanted to,which was to Play cards like Cancel and Divination and then a Winning Condition Like Aetherling.
To me it was worth spending Every penny To make the List I Have today. Sure it took around 1 1/2 Year to make and get all the cards needed, But it was worth it cause I had such a Strong Connection with the Play-style of Control. For me the Objective was not Winning, But most importantly Not Losing. If I could last to Turn 12 and up I knew the game was going to be good and in my "Control".
I've even Built the Deck on MTGO, cause that's how much I Love Countering Spells and Drawing Cards. Sure the price tag is big but what is the Price tag of Endless Fun?
Shout out to Archaeomancer for being my Budget Snapcaster mage!
Twitch Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/qtwelve
I agree. I haven't changed my deck at all because why bother? I played against a red green Eldrazi deck and managed to beat it. It was running the usual stuff just splashing for bolt and ancient stirrings. I've been spending most of my time playing Teachings in pauper after the PT. That format is actually stable and killing people with Evincar's Justice is hilarious. Overall the Eldrazi match ups are terrible. The only good thing about the Eldrazi meta is that people are bringing back blue moon. I feel that match up is in our favor.
Like I said a few posts back, just expect to lose a lot to Eldrazi decks. Don't warp your deck to beat them. When your decks overall strategy is really bad against a deck, it's difficult to tweak your deck enough to tilt the odds in your favor.
Twitch Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/zdeathblow
I want to thank you for really getting at what makes magic fun. This is why I want to build this deck because I really identify with this play style. You guys have pointed out why it's important to play what you love and I agree.
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
So, was the problem really that the threat density of the deck is too high, and there's no chokepoints you can focus like with Affinity? You can ignore everything and Spell Pierce the Plating, and they don't draw Thoughtseizes like the previous versions, so we can't just draw spells early on against them. At least that's what I'm getting from your post. We normally only run 7 removal spells in the entire deck, and rely on the draw engine to scale. You're only supposed to draw a single removal spell in your opener with this deck, but with the Cavern of Souls cheese making their entire deck uncounterable, I can see how that's not enough. Or you're so low by the time you Verdict that you're just dead to Reality Smasher.
I think I'm still running this deck at the GP next month. I guess I'll know after I've played a few games against the new deck myself. I feel like people felt the same way playing Control v. the Tron and big Eldrazi decks; they gave up on matchups instead of fundamentally changing their gameplan post-board. I'd like to at least see how the Verdict plan performs when backed by at least the full 8 spot removal spells you would expect out of a control deck in the Standard format:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5787&d=233544
That deck technically had Azorious Charms, Detention Sphere, etc., but the core of 6-8 Doom Blade effects + 4 Wrath
iswas central. I never bothered to apply this logic to Modern Esper, but that was before a mono-creature swarm Top 8 at the PT. With maindeck graveyard hate, plus Chalice of the Void, I'm not sure combo is ever coming back before this thing is banned. It looked to me like the entire day 2 of the PT was warped, and that only decks with high threat density and zero interaction could compete with Eldrazi. If Modern is going to look a lot like Standard with every deck having 24+ creatures than I don't see why we can't adjust. Perhaps Jund isn't dead; people may just be trying to find what creatures to run in place of the Thoughtseizes..."If it was easy, everyone would do it."
If we had actual tabernacles, that might be a whole nother thing though.
It has the same problem that most, if not all, utility creatures have. The opponent is going to be choking on removal spells with zero targets. Playing the magus turns their dead cards into action. Remember that control decks thrive on card advantage and turning a portion of your opponent's deck into cards with zero text is also card advantage. That's why the only creatures we play are ones where the body is irrelevant. Things like snapcaster and clique do something important the moment they resolve and if they survive that's cool, but if not that's cool too. Also being a creature it dies to our sweepers and if we drop it down against a horde of dorks they can just pay for them and keep swinging forcing us to wrath anyway. This doesn't exactly apply to things like WSZ Kittie tokens or lingering souls tokens because they're too wide for removal to matter and cluttering up the board is what they do allowing us to durdle with draw spells to find a wrath.
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
Deck List
It's probably not a good Idea to Change the Main So Much so you guys may Exclude this post but The Inclusion of a 4th wrath and Two Dawn Charms Really Help out in the Match up to Stall till a Wrath or a Verdict.
I've Done testing with Batwing Brumes Instead of the Dawn Charms and they don't Help when you're getting Inquisitioned or Thoughtseized where as Dawn Charm Does.
Basically, Permission Spells is 11, Draw Spells is 10, Removal is 8, and Utility is 2.
I examined 4 Lists and their Draw/Permission/Removal Ratios and that is where I found the Slots to fit in the Dawn Charms.
All three Modes could Prove Potential, Countering a Thoughtseize, Regenerating a Dying Colonnade, Fogging a turn.
It's all still just Testing and tweaking, it's no where near a Definite keep in this list. Just something to provide a "Quick Fix" for our match-up vs Eldrazi.
I Know Tweaking the main just for one deck is terrible especially when the deck we are tweaking against will be long gone in a few months.
Also the Side board is just cards I'm still fiddling around with like the Condemns and Doom Blade.
EDIT:Mana Leak was also added in the place of Remand, I want more early "Hard Counters" where Remand could help us Dig closer to wraths or Lands but it is all Still Testing
and may just end up reverting back to Remand over Mana Leak
Twitch Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/qtwelve
It's worth testing in this meta I suppose, though.
Angelsong
Took a bit of researching but there is something, I'll give it some testing.
Twitch Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/qtwelve
I am also building this deck on a budget (Shout out to ZDEATHBLOW for making it! *MOAR AIRHORN NOISES*), and I don't care about the current meta. I'm gonna be countering and killing crap all day!
I am also building this deck on a budget (Shout out to ZDEATHBLOW for making it! *MOAR AIRHORN NOISES*), and I don't care about the current meta. I'm gonna be countering and killing crap all day![/quote]</blockquote>
Amen, brother!
EDIT: I just messed up my qoute. I feel like an idiot. Stupid baby steps!
I actually forgot that card existed! I will definitely test it out if either of my metas get more aggressive. I also like the Dawn Charms as well, but if I played them, it would most likely be in the sideboard since I can't cantrip it away if it is a dead card like Angelsong.
EDIT: turns out I was just being stupid.... It would appear that i CAN qoute. And I apologize if any of you find this annoying.