I agree on a lot of points but I think Search is the truth. I’ve seen games on the brink of death pulled back by a flipped Search.
Yes, a deck of bolts has higher average ROI. But a deck of Esper Charms and Wincons would also like to find these cards, because they put the game away quick and in a hurry.
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While I like the general shell, playing EIGHT counterspells in the sideboard (plus 2 Queller which has a similar role) seems really loose. You're given away a lot of games against creature decks (only 2 + 1 Wrath effects without even E.E. in the board?) and no Runed Halo or Vendilion Clique to fight Scapeshift. Totally not convinced. I'm 100% sure this sideboard plan is flat out wrong. The second Swamp in the maindeck also is totally unnecessary. You don't have doble black spells to cast.
If you're doing well with it, I'm glad. But the list really needs more tuning.
I don't actually have much games with it, 2 matches only so far. I was going to join a league yesterday, but when I realized the modern leagues close online in 2 days I didn't bother. So far I've beaten BW Eldrazi Taxes,and UW midrange.I didn't play the Gearhulk, based on CodyX's recommendation.
As far as the sideboard being full of Counterspell, that is basically the entire point of the experiment. It could be wrong, probably is. My thoughts right now though are that the correct Counterspells tend to be the best cards in a lot of matches, especially the 1 Mana counters. Queller is filler, probably should be clique, but I wanted to stay on theme of counter-magic for testing purposes. I'm not recommending this list to anyone, of course.
I like the idea of spell quellers in an esper deck, good way of pressurising the opponent and still being able to 'counter' spells.
I agree, but the biggest problem is how reliant control in general is on Verdict. How would you feel about playing Quellers and then playing Settle over Verdicts?
IMO, settle isn't that terrible, but its not better than verdict. Queller is also just really lackluster in this shell (its come up a lot, but decks that play lightning bolts make better use of random creatures that don't protect them selves because they add up damage over the course of the game. This deck basically kills in 1 swoop. The exception here is decks like tron/valakut/ad nauseum, etc, that don't play removal against us games 2-3, but queller doesn't hit their important spells anyways, so thats kind of irrelevant. (Which is exactly why I like clique better as well).
An esper deck like the old tidehollow sculler/meddling mage decks is probably where I'd play queller in esper. As it is, I don't even love the card in UW control.
A pair of clique in the SB is probably the strongest anti-combo plan available, especially if combined with other specific hate (Rule of Law type effects)
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IMHO, Settle is just super-bad. The "exile" clause doesn't do much, because usually the creatures we want to exile triggers in the opponent's turn (just to make an example: Voice of Resurgence) and we give free lands to the opponent. Other than that, it's pretty terrible against things like Eidolon and Thalia, once that the opponent knows we play it. It may be decent in a different shell (like the "old" UW lists with plenty of Vendilion, Restoration and Finks in it). Not here. I tested it intensively, and always - always - underperformed.
If you play at an FNM with the same players each week, I imagine Settle would be less effective as a card. As a 1-of, maindeck or sideboard, it's rare that someone gets a chance to "play around it", and if they try it's most likely a situation where they're so far ahead they can afford to hold back attackers.
I think he was responding primarily to annihilator. Playing 1 settle as your sideboard wrath is probably fine, if you believe it to be better than verdict/wrath there (arguable, but arguable.) Playing settle instead of verdict entirely because you're playing spell quellers feels like a mistake in this deck.
At SCG Columbus I missed my win and in round (I jammed Living End) because my Jeskai control opponent played TWO settle the wreckage in his MD.
You can’t really afford to play around them having a second one, just like elves can’t play around the opponent having a second Verdict.
And virtually no one will play around the first copy.
Just some thoughts, if you’re tweaking the deck online or for an open meta, it’s not a bad call at all. Like Cody said, FNM isnt the best place to have spicy tech.
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I wasn't suggesting playing Settle with sideboard Quellers. I meant an Esper list with mainboard Quellers, playing Settle over Verdict main to accommodate. Gives you extra threats, extra "counters", and an entirely instant-speed game 1.
Sideboard's a work in progress. I'm still considering more threats (Baneslayer, Elspeth, Clique), more removal for unusual permanents (DSphere, Disenchant), whether or not it needs Supreme Verdict/Fatal Push, etc.
One thing I was wondering about: I usually play Path-Push-Verdict in a 4-3-3 or 4-3-4 split. I know there are some in this topic that don't like having too many removal spells maindeck, but I'm starting to believe that we should play even more spot removal. The comparison with Jeskai isn't fair, because Burn spells also go to the opponent's face. But then, they have 11-12 spot removals + 2 Supreme Verdict. Maybe a 4-4-3 split would be better? Because fast threats are what we really fear (like, Goblin Guide and Swiftspear from Burn, Ravager/Overseer from Affinity, Queller that blows up our Verdicts, first turn Elf that enable turn two Blood Moon, and more). Having 3 wrath effects seems legit, but upping the count of Fatal Push to the full set might be not a bad consideration, after all. I'm curious about what you guys think.
That was my point with bringing up the list. The guys were playing a literal pile of spot removal and they faced off in the finals with the EXACT SAME 75. I read somewhere that Burn was popular that weekend for whatever reason, but the chances that they both got constantly paired against it and rode the matchup to the finals seems unlikely. It's possible that Modern is at a point where creature piles are the dominant force in the metagame.
@Cipher: I was there playing, Burn wasn’t all that prevalent. Lot of TitanShift in the early rounds, I played 4 Jeskai opponents in 9 rounds, played Affinity twice, tons of Deaths Shadow (Good MU for Jeskai) of the ~9 people I was there with we found it was a mostly skewed meta towards those decks.
Lantern wasn’t out in force, Eldrazi Tron was lackluster, Dredge had a good showing, very few storm decks that I saw, not a ton of GW Company but scatterings, et al.
Burn wasn’t anywhere in the top tables that I could see
@Annihilator: that’s what I was referring to also, MB Queller and Settle. Although I’d cut 2 Think twice and go up to full 4 Snap, you’ll be playing a more aggressive game I’d think.
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On settle: the higher the number of spot removal and counters (that presumably hit creatures) that a deck plays, the better settle gets. If you are spending early countering and pushing, your opponent isn't going to be able to afford to play around settle. Even if you haven't been pushing creatures around it's still incorrect to play around because the cost of playing around it is way too high against a deck filled with interaction, other sweepers and instant win type cards (rev, elspeth, stw/wsz). Also consider how big of an advantage you get when your opponent decides to play around it when you don't have it.
Does all that justify Queller in the main/side? I would argue not the main for sure, it doesn't provide enough value on ETB to justify turning on opponent's main deck removal. It's questionable in the side too, and I often put a pair in the sideboard when I haven't tested a list extensively because it tends to have widespread application but I almost always end up cutting it once I have more experience with a list because you find specific holes that need to be filled.
For those saying Queller isn't worthy even of the sideboard, I definitely have to agree to disagree. I've been playing 3 Quellers in my board since it came out, and the number of games it's won me is insane. Against Burn, any sort of all-in Blood Moon deck, Storm, Control mirrors, Affinity even -- and I've played Clique against those decks and still lost multiple times. Queller does something similar to Clique but much better in my very honest opinion, mainly because it can block without dying. It also is a reatroactive answer, meaning they have to invest in the mana first. It also doesn't replace the card until they answer the Queller (ie they one-for-one it anyways). I swear by Queller, 100%.
In fact, it's been SO good for me that I'm drawing up lists with it main -- not that I think they're the way to go as of right now.
I agree that fatal push is one of the biggest draws to playing Esper. 4-3-3 is my Path-Push-Verdict split, I consider the 2 Blessed Alliance to be flex slots. I also play 2 negate as flex slots, but that’s because company, storm and LotV decks are abundant in the LGS I play Esper at.
I think Esper is favored against Jeskai, so if Jeskai continues drawing players I think it would be a strong decision.
I was watching a stream the other day, he played against cruel grixis piloted by MrCafouillette (sp?) and got rofl stomped handily (he was on RG Tron). Maybe that’s the direction we need to go, 1-4-1 resources until we can resolve a game-ending spell like Cruel Ultimatum. Maybe we jam Karn or Ugin in. I played Karn in the UB Nephalia’s Drownyard deck back in standard, it was a great way to cleanup. Ugin could be better than a sphinx rev. Who knows 😀
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So I haven't been playing any Esper for a long time. I think, generally speaking, Jeskai is just a better deck. But I'm a bit bored with just playing Jeskai so I wanted to try something different. I've read the last few pages of this thread and had a look at some of your lists. The thing that strikes me is the lack of maindeck Lingering Souls. It seems like one of the very best cards in this combination of colors. What is keeping you from playing it in the main, especially in a moment where UWx decks are more popular than usual? Is it the fear of having to tap out on your turn? I don't think that's such a big deal in this deck, it's not like it's a flash build anyway.
Also, the thing is, I feel like starting my testing with two other sorcery speed cards in my maindeck: Collective Brutality and yes, Search for Azcanta. Brutality seems pretty good here, because we struggle against Burn and we tend to have some "clunky" cards that can be discarded to Brutality depending on the MU. There's also obviously a synergy with Lingering Souls. And Azcanta, well...the thing is, Search fo Azcanta is just one of those cards that's simply too powerful not to play it.
Right now it's probably the single strongest card in the whole format in attrition games. Whenever you want to go in the late game and grind, there's just nothing better. It seems particularly good here 'cause we play few creatures and cards like Secure the Wastes and Lingering Souls can be taken with Search to win the game. If our graveyard is under too much pressure, I would rather cut Logic Knot and play Search than the opposite. In a deck of Path to Exile and Fatal Push, I guess Negate over Knot is just fine.
But hey, testing might change my perspective entirely, let's see. I'll start playing with an Esper build with Lingering Souls, Collective Brutality and Search for Azcanta this evening and see how it fares.
Whatup, TheAller! We all appreciate the interest, but I just want to chime in that it would serve you much better to start testing with a list from someone here on the thread before you make changes to the deck -- otherwise you have no point of reference to build from. If you decide that some changes should be made, we'd all love to hear it, but you should make sure you have plenty of experience with what you're comparing it to.
I actually suggest you ask Cody_X for his list, since he's been around a while and is prettt levelheaded when it comes to deckbuilding. Everyone else is currently testing "unusual" inclusions, and my personal list isn't terribly popular, it would appear -- what with Search and Alliance main and Quellers sideboard.
The thing that strikes me is the lack of maindeck Lingering Souls. It seems like one of the very best cards in this combination of colors.
It is, until you actually play it in a control deck. In a deck with a low creature count it only is effective at pressuring life totals against other actual Control decks. It's worse than Secure the wastes in most matchups outside of Affinity, since your opponent controls how combat goes and can punish double blocks and the like. With the exception of a few matchups, it's basically an unreliable removal spell.
At least, that was my experience when I ran the card. The metagame has changed in the past year and it's possible it would trade with multiple threats, these days.
Souls was better when the biggest threat we had to worry about was a Tarmogoyf (with no trample). Now Eldrazi Tron just laughs at 1/1 Tokens, and while Affinity certainly doesn’t *like* to see the card, it’s not the card I want to be tapping out for on turn 3, especially since they can instant speed equip plating after blockers are declared.
That said, I don’t think staying instant-only is in the best interest right now. I firmly believe Search is the strongest late-game card in Blue right now, not playing it because your opponent could have a 1-2 of land destruction ability is like the “dies to bolt” argument of old
You have to play some threat density, and if Jeskai is killing Search then you’ve already gotten value from at least one scry, you get a basic out of it, and your colonnade has one fewer answer to worry about.
Regarding the current build: I don’t want Think Twice in my deck in this meta, many of the decks we are scared to tap out Against can “win” at instant speed anyway (Coco/chord, gifts, Ad Nauseum, burn).
Other decks I’d rather have the interaction than the card draw. I think Serum is right for the deck now after testing a couple dozen matches with it directly over Think Twice. Blasting it off t1 isn’t usually correct for us, we need to see how the game develops, but overall I think it’s where we want to be in conjunction with Search.
Yes, a deck of bolts has higher average ROI. But a deck of Esper Charms and Wincons would also like to find these cards, because they put the game away quick and in a hurry.
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I don't actually have much games with it, 2 matches only so far. I was going to join a league yesterday, but when I realized the modern leagues close online in 2 days I didn't bother. So far I've beaten BW Eldrazi Taxes,and UW midrange.I didn't play the Gearhulk, based on CodyX's recommendation.
As far as the sideboard being full of Counterspell, that is basically the entire point of the experiment. It could be wrong, probably is. My thoughts right now though are that the correct Counterspells tend to be the best cards in a lot of matches, especially the 1 Mana counters. Queller is filler, probably should be clique, but I wanted to stay on theme of counter-magic for testing purposes. I'm not recommending this list to anyone, of course.
I agree, but the biggest problem is how reliant control in general is on Verdict. How would you feel about playing Quellers and then playing Settle over Verdicts?
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EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
An esper deck like the old tidehollow sculler/meddling mage decks is probably where I'd play queller in esper. As it is, I don't even love the card in UW control.
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At SCG Columbus I missed my win and in round (I jammed Living End) because my Jeskai control opponent played TWO settle the wreckage in his MD.
You can’t really afford to play around them having a second one, just like elves can’t play around the opponent having a second Verdict.
And virtually no one will play around the first copy.
Just some thoughts, if you’re tweaking the deck online or for an open meta, it’s not a bad call at all. Like Cody said, FNM isnt the best place to have spicy tech.
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Edit: For example, maybe something like this?
4x Celestial Colonnade
2x Drowned Catacomb
2x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Watery Grave
3x Island
2x Plains
Wincons (2)
2x Secure the Wastes
Counters (13)
1x Spell Snare
3x Logic Knot
1x Negate
4x Spell Queller
4x Cryptic Command
4x Path to Exile
2x Blessed Alliance
3x Settle the Wreckage
Card Advntage (12)
2x Search for Azcanta
2x Think Twice
4x Esper Charm
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Dispel
2x Fatal Push
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Celestial Purge
1x Negate
2x Runed Halo
Sideboard's a work in progress. I'm still considering more threats (Baneslayer, Elspeth, Clique), more removal for unusual permanents (DSphere, Disenchant), whether or not it needs Supreme Verdict/Fatal Push, etc.
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Lantern wasn’t out in force, Eldrazi Tron was lackluster, Dredge had a good showing, very few storm decks that I saw, not a ton of GW Company but scatterings, et al.
Burn wasn’t anywhere in the top tables that I could see
@Annihilator: that’s what I was referring to also, MB Queller and Settle. Although I’d cut 2 Think twice and go up to full 4 Snap, you’ll be playing a more aggressive game I’d think.
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I knew you could but that seems not-so-good unless you're about to win.
Does all that justify Queller in the main/side? I would argue not the main for sure, it doesn't provide enough value on ETB to justify turning on opponent's main deck removal. It's questionable in the side too, and I often put a pair in the sideboard when I haven't tested a list extensively because it tends to have widespread application but I almost always end up cutting it once I have more experience with a list because you find specific holes that need to be filled.
In fact, it's been SO good for me that I'm drawing up lists with it main -- not that I think they're the way to go as of right now.
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UW Azorius Control (clicky)
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EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I think Esper is favored against Jeskai, so if Jeskai continues drawing players I think it would be a strong decision.
I was watching a stream the other day, he played against cruel grixis piloted by MrCafouillette (sp?) and got rofl stomped handily (he was on RG Tron). Maybe that’s the direction we need to go, 1-4-1 resources until we can resolve a game-ending spell like Cruel Ultimatum. Maybe we jam Karn or Ugin in. I played Karn in the UB Nephalia’s Drownyard deck back in standard, it was a great way to cleanup. Ugin could be better than a sphinx rev. Who knows 😀
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Whatup, TheAller! We all appreciate the interest, but I just want to chime in that it would serve you much better to start testing with a list from someone here on the thread before you make changes to the deck -- otherwise you have no point of reference to build from. If you decide that some changes should be made, we'd all love to hear it, but you should make sure you have plenty of experience with what you're comparing it to.
I actually suggest you ask Cody_X for his list, since he's been around a while and is prettt levelheaded when it comes to deckbuilding. Everyone else is currently testing "unusual" inclusions, and my personal list isn't terribly popular, it would appear -- what with Search and Alliance main and Quellers sideboard.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
At least, that was my experience when I ran the card. The metagame has changed in the past year and it's possible it would trade with multiple threats, these days.
That said, I don’t think staying instant-only is in the best interest right now. I firmly believe Search is the strongest late-game card in Blue right now, not playing it because your opponent could have a 1-2 of land destruction ability is like the “dies to bolt” argument of old
You have to play some threat density, and if Jeskai is killing Search then you’ve already gotten value from at least one scry, you get a basic out of it, and your colonnade has one fewer answer to worry about.
Regarding the current build: I don’t want Think Twice in my deck in this meta, many of the decks we are scared to tap out Against can “win” at instant speed anyway (Coco/chord, gifts, Ad Nauseum, burn).
Other decks I’d rather have the interaction than the card draw. I think Serum is right for the deck now after testing a couple dozen matches with it directly over Think Twice. Blasting it off t1 isn’t usually correct for us, we need to see how the game develops, but overall I think it’s where we want to be in conjunction with Search.
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And even then, it's only non-red control decks due to Electrolyze, and Jeskai is the popular build at the moment.