MTG Salvation

Ok, so I have a little advice to pitch in. I haven't done a TON of testing with other versions of Esper, but I have done some, and I must say that I'm pretty much reverting back to advising the draw-go plan for Esper. I've tested some games cutting Verdicts for Quellers, playing Gideons 3 and 5, mainboard Tasigur types stuff, Spreading Seas, etc., and it all felt like it didn't help. It's all just a bad version of a different deck that does its thing better.

At risk of being called a proponent of the infamous "echo-chamber effect" this thread gets accused of having, I think that adding these things guts the thing that Esper is meant for -- being the best instant-speed deck in the format. I remember there was a discussion a while ago about how Esper isn't the best at anything, and I sortof agreed at the time, but I've come to realize since then that the meta shift doesn't warrant a shift in plan. I very honestly think that Draw-Go is the best version of Esper out there. The issue comes to tuning the deck correctly, and I'll be trying to get on that when I can. If I come up with some good stuff, I'll let you all know. I am actually pretty optimistic about Esper right now though -- I've always just been put off by the Burn matchup really, and the meta has been pushing out Burn a little bit.

Some little bits and pieces about my thinking -- I'm fairly confident after playing Opt in Esper since it was spoiled that it's not actually necessary. Shocking, I know (unironically). It's not that it's a bad card, it simply doesn't do enough -- even if it is efficiently costed. I'm going to do my best to tune a list without Opt and see how that goes. Additionally, I'm currently sold on mainboarding a singleton Detention Sphere, as its time to shine has been here for a while. I may consider a Cast Out instead, but I like that Sphere hits multiples.

Quote from Cody_X »

If you want something like resto (flash flying, irrelevant text) archangel avacyn might be better.

No love for Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir?

Teferi has relevant text, making him ineligible for that slot

Your other post is pretty much just exactly how I've been feeling for a while.
The games I've played with opt, I felt like it wasn't impactful enough to deserve a slot.
I think all of the changes people have made aren't worthwhile.
I think the deck potentially can succeed in the meta, but we're very much going to be in the "see you good matchups: win, see your bad matchups: lose" without a whole lot of say like most of the format.

The hitting multiples makes me think DSphere is just much better than cast out even if it gets hit by decay.

Not so long ago I tried a version that ran 2x Snapcaster Mage, 2x Restoration Angel, 1x Vendilion Clique and 2x Torrential Gearhulk. All in all I liked that. Torrential felt good, but I changed after Storm raise in popularity

Why would you play dsphere in this deck? Cryptic gets rid of problematic noncreature permanents just fine, not to mention esper charm hits enchantments. Planeswalkers are kinda rough but usually you can negate/knot/cryptic them. Lingering souls is annoying but smart players dont roll all 4 tokens out (verdict) anyways.

Its that thing where you put sorcery speed stuff in the deck and wind up in awkward situations of tapping low for dsphere and then they resolve something worse while you're tapped down.

I could get behind cast out, although honestly at that point you maybe just play utter end - not sure how often we will want to cycle away our catch-all (cycling on an unconditional removal spell is kinda derpy) and postboard we often face enchant removal as people prepare for stony rip leyline and halo.

I like one runed halo main because its so flexible and acts as a silver bullet for g1 vs valakut. If I get more confident in beating valakut g1 id probably move the md halo out too (sorcery speed not ideal)

Does anyone play Mana Leak over Logic Knot? I feel Logic Knot as an early turn counter can be awkward.

A) this is modern not legacy forum
B) legacy isn’t very conducive to draw-go because they have so many decks that can just jam a game-ending threat every turn until they get one to stick
C) Esper blade is your closest bet, it’s fairly strong at all times for legacy

If you want to play actual draw-go in legacy, play the new-miracles deck (don't play counterbalance/soothsaying, just max out ponders/brainstorms/portents, predicts, terminus, unexpected absent, swords, counterspells, forces, add in some jaces, entreats, snaps, maybe clique or mentor if you so desire). Its not the #1 deck anymore, but its more draw-go than any kind of deathblade, pile, or delver deck.
Otherwise, legacy, like modern, is primarily defined by the proactive elements legal in the format. Even successful control decks. Punishing fire, countertop, leovold, thoptersword, tax/rack, landstill, loam, etc. You may be able to find draw-go brews (I'm sure there are plenty on the source), but in general, most one-shot card advantage in magic sucks, so playing powerful engines (that are usually sorcery speed) tends to be a better way to produce card advantage.

Some people probably play mana leak over logic knot, but I feel those people are wrong.
Logic knot early game usually only needs to counter for x=1 or 2, which is super doable with a land to two in the yard, or even just playing it like a syncopate.
Mana leak is dead/awkward a lot more often than logic knot is in this deck.

Quote from BadMcFadden »

Why would you play dsphere in this deck? Cryptic gets rid of problematic noncreature permanents just fine, not to mention esper charm hits enchantments. Planeswalkers are kinda rough but usually you can negate/knot/cryptic them. Lingering souls is annoying but smart players dont roll all 4 tokens out (verdict) anyways.

Its that thing where you put sorcery speed stuff in the deck and wind up in awkward situations of tapping low for dsphere and then they resolve something worse while you're tapped down.

I could get behind cast out, although honestly at that point you maybe just play utter end - not sure how often we will want to cycle away our catch-all (cycling on an unconditional removal spell is kinda derpy) and postboard we often face enchant removal as people prepare for stony rip leyline and halo.

I like one runed halo main because its so flexible and acts as a silver bullet for g1 vs valakut. If I get more confident in beating valakut g1 id probably move the md halo out too (sorcery speed not ideal)

The mainboard D-Sphere IS for the problematic permanents that you didn't want to let resolve. The idea is that you use it when you don't foresee them having anything terribly threatening or when you have no choice, which is why I'm playing it as a one of. It's also meant for late game, so tapping 3 isn't as hard as it may seem. Cryptic isn't always terribly reliable for certain types of threats, and it doesn't deal well with threats in multiples. Right now Sphere has the lowest opportunity cost it's ever had in Modern since I started playing.

As for Cast Out vs. Utter End, the winner in my eyes is definitely Cast Out. There are plenty of matches where cycling is the best option -- Burn, Storm, and Humans all come to mind. Utter End just doesn't have that flexibility. The reason I've opted for Sphere instead of Cast Out, however, is for hitting multiples -- for example, Ensnaring Bridge is a card that is hard to beat in number (against Lantern), and so is Empty the Warrens. It's a tradeoff, but there's definitely an argument to play Sphere over Cast Out.

Quote from ctaylor33 »

Does anyone play Mana Leak over Logic Knot? I feel Logic Knot as an early turn counter can be awkward.

Yes, Knot can be awkward, but the cost of playing Leak instead is very real in the late-late game. I play 1 Leak now over the 2nd Negate, what with Humans on the radar, but it's debatable whether or not Leak is even playable in this deck.

I know its just an example but verdict handles empty the warrens. Multiple bridges would be bad but what did you do with your counterspells that they got multiples out? And how many decks actually play bridge? This seems corner case and not a reason to maindeck a sphere.

The noncreature nonenchantment cards that cause grief are basically planeswalkers like lotv and nahiri. If one of these slips through you have a limited window in which to deal with them so its not going to be "late game detention sphere". Itll be turn five or six detention sphere passing with 2-3 mana up which is a relatively vulnerable place to be as a draw-go deck.

I mean the card can never be terrible, but it also doesnt really stick to the draw-go script so will create tension that you may rather avoid. Im ok with the tension on runed halo because its such a great card vs valakut and does work vs stuff like grapeshot and eidolon - I dont see the same gamebreaking application of a sphere.

TBH I like the idea of a Prison-esque deck that uses Azcanta, Bridge, Scepter, etc. We could use Thop/Sword as an endgame, but Azcanta should be able to draw us into out wincon

Quote from BadMcFadden »

I know its just an example but verdict handles empty the warrens. Multiple bridges would be bad but what did you do with your counterspells that they got multiples out? And how many decks actually play bridge? This seems corner case and not a reason to maindeck a sphere.

The noncreature nonenchantment cards that cause grief are basically planeswalkers like lotv and nahiri. If one of these slips through you have a limited window in which to deal with them so its not going to be "late game detention sphere". Itll be turn five or six detention sphere passing with 2-3 mana up which is a relatively vulnerable place to be as a draw-go deck.

I mean the card can never be terrible, but it also doesnt really stick to the draw-go script so will create tension that you may rather avoid. Im ok with the tension on runed halo because its such a great card vs valakut and does work vs stuff like grapeshot and eidolon - I dont see the same gamebreaking application of a sphere.

I wouldn't maindeck Sphere, but in the sideboard it does well. The specific thing that made me adopt it was Storm, where it answered (multiple) Blood Moons and Empty the Warrens, making it the best answer you have to both of the angles of attack post-board. When you're trying to get out of a Blood Moon lock, the nail in the coffin is usually when they drop the second; this kills them both in 1 shot.

It kills the same things as Celestial Purge, but also answers Lingering Souls. It even turns Cryptic Command into a cantrip sweeper against tokens.

None commented on the list that top8ed the online ptq? It looks pretty interesting imho https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/826958#online
It is closer to the grixis control style lists with Tasigur's but with a lot of draw-go

Seems interesting that a list like that could perform so well, but I suppose scooping to Eldrazi is OK if you beat Death's Shadow every time. I'd also be a bit worried about beating the creature swarm decks, since you have only a few removal spells to disrupt combos, almost no way to snowball (which is what you expect from an actual Control deck), and only 10 creatures to provide a clock.

It kind of reminds me of Sam Black's Delverless Delver deck, but applied to Esper Death's Shadow, instead. Beats up on creature decks that are smaller than it, but loses to anything going over the top of it. I'd rather play Jeskai Flash if I was going to go that route, though.

Seeing Lingering Souls being put to work does make me wonder about the Search for Azcanta synergies. Biggest problem with Lingering Souls is that it's ultimately useless defensively since it trades with so little in the format. It does chump-block the hell out out of every deck, though. Azcanta can mill over copies, making it cheaper to cast, and it would provide a clock against combo decks, allowing you to win by chaining counterspells without necessarily drawing something like Runed Halo or tapping out for Colonnade repeatedly.

Nothing about it is Draw-go, but an Esper version of UW built around Azcanta could utilize it. The planeswalker synergies with Lingering Souls are always great.

Why would you assume that list roles over to Eldrazi? Smasher seems a bit problematic, but everything else seems manageable. Even smasher isn't insurmountable, paths, double blocks, counterspells if they don't have cavern. The sideboard plan includes 3 verdicts, which seems great there as well.

You're looking at what answers they have; I'm looking at what threats and/or card advantage. I played UWR for long enough to know how ineffective blue midrange is against decks like that.

Deck looks tuned to be the go-wide strategies of the format and still have great game against Storm.

Seems to have accomplished this pretty well.

Not the best call for a meta of Eldrazi IMHO but that’s not the meta we face right now

I don't think Lingering Souls and 6 Paths is enough against Humans, but I can see how it manages game 1 against Counters Company.

Quote from Cipher »

I imagine if you Teaching into Hurkyl's Recall, you'll untap hellbent and pass turn while they replay everything. But maybe I'm wrong, here.

What are people hitting with Surgical that makes it good v. Storm? Are you removing Empty or Grapeshot after they cast it already? I can see Thoughtseize -> Surgical if you manage to set it up, but if Surgical is only happening once they've already tried to go off I'm just not seeing how that's worth it.

The things I've cast an extraction on against this latest iteration of storm include all of the following:
grapeshot
empty the warrens
lightning bolt
thought scour
manamorphose
desperate ritual
past in flames
baral
electromancer
echoing truth

It honestly depends on what else you have to board in, what else you have main, what you have in hand/on the table, and what their plans appear to be. There really isn't a "good" way to explain how to choose what to target, it's very much a case-by-case thing.