I have brewed around esper control for several months now and I have been very happy with this list. Just wanted to share it, with the reasons behind the card choices below:
1) Manabase
25 lands, among which 7 fetchlands, 6 basics, 3 shocklands, 4 manlands, 2 checklands, 3 LD lands for 20U sources, 17 W sources and 14 B sources (I assume I do not want to ghost quarter my lands for a colour, even if we all have been there at some stage ).
Compared to UW control, one big disadvantage is the way we deal with lands. Traditional build have near 0 way to handle lands, which can be very annoying. The aim is not to disrupt mana here but to have an answer in our deck against problematic lands (yes tehre are several of them). I ran spreading seas for a while, even if this was rather annoying to tap on my turn for them. I am now very glad that we have access to land destruction without having to go down in land count (which our deck hates to do) with the print of field of ruin. I ran two, plus a ghost quarter (down on land but no activation cost other than tap + sacrifice) to diversify a bit my land hate.
Since field of ruin also fixes colours, I have been down on a fetchland.
4 manlands has been the spot where I felt the most at ease. 1 creeping to mainly pressure planeswalkers and hedge against surgical effects.
The rest is filled with basics (6 has been quite good to feel quasi blood moon proof), 3 shocklands (necessary disease in 3 colours) and 2 checklands.
2) Removal
Quite standard for path and verdict (4/3 split).
I have never been in love with push since it is awesome in certain MUs and horrible in others !
At the same time, I want the flexibility to have cantrips which can turn in useful cards (the 4 think twice thing is definitely not for me), hence the inclusion of 2 azorius charm. Awesome tempo card in creature MUs, while being cycled in combo MUs or control MUs. The charm are complemented by a blessed alliance (flexed spot, this could be anything really).
3) Counterspells
Split 2-1 logic knot and leak because we do not always have the luxury to play knot early. I honestly believe that - in the late game - we can draw a bad card seeing the amount of draws we have.
Leak used to be a supreme will but right now I feel like one more mana makes from this a mid-late game card while I wanted this slot to be an early game card.
2 negates and 3 cryptic to complement this package.
4) Card filtering
4 serum visions because it is still the best rate you can have in seeing cards for the mana invested.
One search for azcanta makes a fifth one, while being an additional land (26th hidden land ) and a powerhouse for the late game. Flip carefully (you do not want this to be destroyed without activation).
5) card draws / advantage
4 charm, 2 snapcaster mage and 2 revelations, plus aforementioned serum visions, azcanta and azorius charm.
6) kills
I wanted to:
(i) have more kills than the classic version (looking for that one white sun's zenith in the deck can be ... very long);
(ii) that my kills contributes to my control plans.
I therefore went for 2 gideon of the trials (because yes we can tap 3 manas and still hold some for our draw go plan. Gideon keeps a lot of things at bay while being a very good finisher) and 2 secure the wastes (I know the advantage of white sun's but really I like the flexibility here, you can secure offensively or defensively depending on the circumstances).
7) Sideboard
If people are interested I can comment on it but you will notice one pattern which comes back frequently in it: 1 teachings - 1 permanent hoser - 1 instant hoser. I basically went for this configuration because I was sick of lantern (tutor the recall after having enough on board to kill them) but it is proven to be quite efficient for other stuffs.
nimble obstructionnist is IMO the most underrated sideboard card currently (can stiffle that storm trigger, ulamog trigger and many more).
I’ve played Esper since modern became a format, from gifts to teachings to even a Delver Midrange list when UW Tron was all the rage. But I feel like the meta has gotten to a point where it’s consistently fast enough to cheese control decks out of the format. I can’t imagine a meta moving forward that’s favorable to Draw-Go is all I meant.
Deaths shadow across the table feels just like a legacy opponent, not unbeatable (but neither is Grixis Delver in legacy - my partner and I have jammed it before, it’s as atrocious as you’d think... maybe 25/75 but still!). Storm is currently a t3 goldfish, t4 through disruption with no ban this go round. WotC keeps printing cheap dudes with tempo advantage written all over them (not good for us).
I’m out on this one for the foreseeable future, find me when we have an equivalent engine to CounterTop! Lol
My opinion exactly. The "competitve diverisity", which I feel is just a contradiction in terms, hurts you more than it helps you. I'd honestly rather play a narrow field where metagaming actually means something.
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right? Just isn’t a ton we can do. Only have 15 slots in the board and they’re tight as can be, many pulling double duty.
I’m playing in Regionals this weekend, now that colonnades are up ($35ish?) I’ll probably ship them, and Cryptic too before Iconic Masters drops their price.
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Okay, so enough with the doomsaying. Let's try something actually conducive to furthering Esper! Credit to artvi and adrithia for trying to revitalize and MouT for putting up some results on MTGO, I agree with a lot of their choices. I actually did come up with the following list separately, but it looks very much the same after looking it over. Anyways, my thought process and then the list:
So, there's been a lot of negativity towards UW Control recently, and I don't really know what changed, but UW just isn't putting up results anymore. Why? My bet is on 2 factors: Storm and 5c humans. Commonality? Both require extra spot removal and extra digging power (at instant speed too). Well, guess which color combo provides this evolution? I'll let you figure it out, but I will say that I'm posting on the Esper Draw-Go forum and leave it at that. So, that out of the way:
I may be on this list for a while, and will be testing it. Let me know your thoughts.
Edit: Oh, and for those tempted to complain about the fact that this deck isn't entirely Draw-Go -- you're right. It's not. But I don't think it matters at this point. It's certainly more controlling than UW, Jeskai, or UR Kiki. I don't know whether UR Breach is comparable or not.
UW Control has never been all that good of a deck, but people were able to come up a with a build that happened to play reasonably well against the meta. Then the meta shifted, we have new decks (storm and humans as you mentioned), and in addition, both eldrazi tron and shadow have dropped in popularity.
I think playing cards like gideons and spreading seas, which were for a minute un-cuttable in UW is going to be a bit more suspect moving forwards.
The list you posted is using a lot of aspects of UW (which worked in the past and currently doesn't work as well) which is a bit suspect. Not to say its bad, but I think modelling a deck off of a currently-struggling deck is not a good choice.
One of the reasons esper has been relatively stable is because we don't have as many narrow cards, like jace AoT, gideons, spreading seas, wall of omens, etc. Path, push and verdict are pretty much good vs everything. Knot and cryptic are pretty much good vs everything, etc, and they're good vs everything at all times, to a degree.
As you mentioned, esper charm and fatal push give UW tools it is definitely lacking, and even if a UW control splash a little bit of black isn't the same as our stock lists, it may still be the correct answer, but I'm not convinced that's what I'm looking at.
So I h e had about 2 and a half leagues worth of play through with The list Mout 4-2’ed the challenge with and I must say I have evoked the play patterns and the Gideon/walker package in most games. My only changes were to the secure going back to wsz because it’s my pet card and I still love it as a late game trump vs the normal versions of Tron which are climbing back up in popularity.
I also added a runed halo to the sb over the third thoughtseize as I love having such a clean catchall to things.
I managed to grab a 5-0 with it and was hoping we would get posted but alas need to grab another to get it up.
@Annhilaltor - I'm routinely smashing humans with UW, so only storm is an issue, but I think assuming equal playskill, the storm match only has UW as a slight dog. For example I'm roughly 50/50 with it since I've come to understand the matchup (spent the first month assuming grapeshot was an instant, that cost me a ton of matches lol) and I consider myself an average player, so I assume my winrate goes down as opponents playskill goes up. Humans on the other hand only requires varying your answers a bit, and there are a ton of them that are being underutilized in white.
As @cody_x stated; UW is a meta deck and the meta has shifted, UW players just haven't caught up yet. That said, I think Esper Draw-Go is better than it has been in a long time, but still not proactive enough to dethrone UW or Jeskai, as the nature of esper is reactive.
To make this post a bit shorter, I've put the changes in spoilers below, plus this way you can just cut to the bits you're interested in, rather than reading me waffle on.
So first off, no Logic Knot! I know, to be honest, I've been wanting to cut it since I swapped remands for negates all those months (years?) ago, but it never felt justifiable. The more I played with the deck, the more I realised, there's not much that our opponents can play on turn 3 that can't be dealt with by Path/Push or Negate, and late game, I'd almost always rather it be a cryptic. So I cut them and replaced them with Blessed Alliance (I consider this my flex slot now, BA is due to a larger than usual number of boggle decks I've played against recently). It's something I've been really happy with, and I'm not sure if I'm gonna end up going back to using LK's any time soon.
Oh boy, how I missed spell snare. This card is just so good right now! It's stops all of the usual stuff, Cranial plating, bob,
Goyf, Snapcaster etc, but is also really useful against storm. It hits their enabler creatures, Manamorphose, their rituals and can slow them down enough that we can win G1 with snapcasters (only done this once, so mileage may vary). Also, it helps sure up the burn and mirror matches too!
This should be fairly obvious, I hate Tron. I've been getting better at winning Game 1, but I still lose more than 50% G1, and so added in crumbles to sure up the match-up, same for Extirpates. This is something we've visited before, and I've stuck with it since, and its still good.
This pretty much ruins storm, and makes it a very good match up, it's also borderline useful against heavy green decks with Thrun and other uncounterable creatures. Combined with spell snare slowing them down, this card is amazing, and I would recommend heavily putting this in the side.
This deck really uses the sideboard as more of a collection of silver bullets for match ups, things like mindbreak trap,
stony silence and crumble to dust don't come in against many other match ups than the obvious. I don't really feel this limits the chances against other decks though, due to the build in the main board, and the other sideboard cards that can help in other matches. Against Aggro, we have 8 cheap removal spells main board, plus 3 sweepers, with an additional sweeper and life gain in the board. Against control we have 10 hard counters, with an additional 2 in the board, plus 2 more threats we can side in (depending on the match up I may also side in extirpates to remove counterspells from their deck which helps immensely). Our maindeck is just generally good against midrange, with additional removal, threats and counter-magic in the board dependant on the type of deck we're playing against.
And against burn, the 6 sources of life gain, and 12 hard counters post sideboard make this a solid 70+% in our favour I feel, and so I don't really worry about much in this match up, except blood moon.
The deck itself has gone 12-2 so far, losing to Merfolk (I still can't side properly against them, they are the reason I added the additional Verdict to my board), and a Blue-Black Super friends control list, though I misplayed pretty badly G2 so this may have been winnable.
Changes I'm looking into: I'd like to add another Snapcaster to assist in consistency, but I'm not sure what I'd take out at this point.
Anyway, I hope the above is useful to you, probably not as useful as this thread has been to me since I started modern, but hopefully something in this post helps!
I really don't like esper or control at all in this metagame. Esper has been generally successful at going generally bigger than all the midrange decks and then targeting a small number of linear aggro decks and riding grave hate and cryptics + charms to victory against combo.
In this metagame, that doesn't work. With death's shadow on the decline, and eldrazi tron squeezing out bgx, we don't have our "easy" matchups often anymore. Eldrazi always felt like an unfavorable matchup simply due to the fact that their best draws had no answer from our side, and their mediocre draws required everything else to go right for us to have a shot.
The problem is that eldrazi and fatal push have "pushed out" most of the normal linear aggro decks because they fold to one removal spell plus a fast clock. This is why we see infect and affinity performing well: they can ignore the clock and easily eat a removal spell or two.
That's why I've gone over to the dark side for a while; small zoo is blisteringly fast to crush storm and otherwise laughs at opponents who think a removal spell into a 6/6 is enough to stabilize the board.
Until the metagame shifts, I'm not on esper. Conditions for hard control just do not feel favorable with the way the format is squeezing now. If the PT in a few months mucks up the metagame a bit I'll re-evaluate, but I feel much safer playing the metagame lottery with a deck that can frequently attack for 12 on turn two.
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@amalek0- Yeah, Esper feels pretty bad right now. I'm on Jeskai Geist ATM because it's one of the only viable deck that plays Cryptics, and I've always liked UWR anyway. I also sold the majority of Esper on paper to buy Tarns, and if it gets better after the PT I'll buy back in.
Also I noticed how you're playing a deck that's a horrendous matchup for Esper LOL. Burn, Esper, and Zoo are some very polarized deck choices
So now that amalek0 is ALSO in agreement with me about the format not being conducive to Esper currently, does that mean we throw it all in the back burner for awhile?
Not going to lie, I jammed Living End at the last two local events and went 3-0-1 split for first and 3-1 take 3rd. If your deck can’t just cheese out a win in this meta, it’s probably a bad choice for you to pilot.
I’ve always found that Control players pilot combo/aggro decks better than the average player does, maybe that’s why we’re all reaching the conclusion at similar times. Lol
All seriousness!!
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Newcomer here on the Esper Control thread, coming from Ad Nauseam and Burn / Living End mostly. I've played some FNM recently and wnet 2-2, 3-0-1, 3-1 and 1-3 in the last 4 FNM I've been too. I've settled on this after playing Grixis Control and Jeskai Draw-Go :
I've been very bad with draw-go, but with this list being more proactive, I've had some success. I can deal with Affinity, Storm, U-Tron and also some DS, Burn (post-board mostly) and TitanShift. This version is not draw-go at all, but more proactive and it's where I want it to be now. Modern is about being fast and proactive and draw-go is slow and reactive. This version is slow also (control will be control right?), but very proactive with IoK and Thoughtseize and some board presence with GoST. Even having Serum Visions feels like a big improvement for cantriping and setting up the correct draws.
I really don't want to bash out on draw-go and you guys are more experienced than I am, but it's just my 2 cents on a list that has been winning in my meta and is not so bad looking I think.
It looks like a Esper Flash deck that's missing 4-6 more creatures.
You have Geist of Saint Traft, but only 6 removal spells to remove the blockers.
Also, targeted discard is bad if you don't follow it up with a threat of some sort. Think of every game against Jund that they played triple Thoughtseize into nothing.
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Okay, so if we're in agreement that Esper isn't exactly at it's peak right now, it's for one of two reasons: 1. we don't have the right answers, or 2. the right answers don't exist. That's just control by definition.
I think it's way better to start reevaluating the card choices than to just "throw it on the back burner". So what cards are we interested in for this meta? Fatal Push and Path are a must, but we could go with Collective Brutality to pitch dead cards against combo (it also can kill Electromancer against Storm, and is great against company). I like counters in this meta too, so I think Logic Knot and Leak are a good place to be. D-Sphere seems like it's in a good place too. What are some cards that we've overlooked? What is wrong with our core, and how can we adjust it?
Could we support a Queller/Clique/Obstructionist package?
Okay, so if we're in agreement that Esper isn't exactly at it's peak right now, it's for one of two reasons: 1. we don't have the right answers, or 2. the right answers don't exist. That's just control by definition.
Imo, it's neither of those reasons - There are plenty of good answers. The problem is that reactive control decks need a defined meta to shine. You can't play a deck with 10 removal spells in a meta where half of the top decks don't care about thier creatures, and you can't really play a deck with only 4 removal spells when the other half of the top decks have 2cmc must answer threats. This is why UW and Jeskai have been more effective, they incorporate a proactive plan of attack. UW has Mana denial and Gideon of the trials, Jeskai has a burn and/or tempo element. If esper is to have a fighting chance it has to adopt a proactive plan or wait until the meta is more well defined (maybe after the pro tour).
If you wanted to go proactive, the first place I would look would be Tasigur, clique and Lilly the last hope or Gifts and Azcanta + Thopter-sword. But none of those are esper draw-go, so the ideas get shot down a lot.
The right answers don't exist.
We need something (or multiple somethings) that answer huge swaths of the format at low cost.
Path to exile is great, fatal push is alright, but logic knot is mediocre at best, and the list ends there.
Its not even that control needs a defined meta to succeed, but control needs to show up with appropriate answers, and thats not really possible.
(For what its worth, UW isn't very effective right now).
As for proactivity, tasigur + clique + lili the last hope isn't good. Its never been good, and its going to take something big to make it good.
I've played plenty of lingering souls before, and that deck is not good in esper colors. Even in grixis, where an established deck using tasigur + snap, etc, existed, isn't good anymore.
For thoptersword, I am currently trying this, but its not been good in the past, and I'm not optimistic about now. I've yet to find a list I'm happy with, and with the current card pool, I don't expect to find one at all.
I've still had more success with the "classic" list than with anything else (and I've still been doing alright), but theres a pretty good chance I'm just going to play shadow for a while.
Its not even that control needs a defined meta to succeed, but control needs to show up with appropriate answers, and thats not really possible.
This sentence is entirely self-defeating. A defined meta allows a control deck to show up with appropriate answers.
Thus, If answers are not the way to approach a meta, the other option is threats. Threats are by definition, proactive.
I agree that UW is not at its best right now either, it's still too reactive. Even the 'proactive' element of UW is sort of reactive, it requires the opponent to have a greedy or weak mana base/land draw.
Not exactly true.
its half the story, yes, but if there are answers that beat everything (or a set of answers) then we dont need a specific meta, because we can just show up with force + terminus + countertop (or something).
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I have brewed around esper control for several months now and I have been very happy with this list. Just wanted to share it, with the reasons behind the card choices below:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Field of Ruin
3 Island
2 plains
1 Swamp
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 glacial fortress
1 Drowned Catacomb
3 Celestial Colonnade
1 creeping tar pit
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Snapcaster Mage
Spells (33)
4 Serum Visions
4 Path to Exile
2 Logic Knot
2 Negate
1 Mana Leak
2 Azorius Charm
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Search for Azcanta
4 Esper Charm
2 Gideon of the Trials
3 Cryptic Command
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Secure the Wastes
2 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Lost Legacy
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Stony Silence
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Timely Reinforcements
1) Manabase
25 lands, among which 7 fetchlands, 6 basics, 3 shocklands, 4 manlands, 2 checklands, 3 LD lands for 20U sources, 17 W sources and 14 B sources (I assume I do not want to ghost quarter my lands for a colour, even if we all have been there at some stage
Compared to UW control, one big disadvantage is the way we deal with lands. Traditional build have near 0 way to handle lands, which can be very annoying. The aim is not to disrupt mana here but to have an answer in our deck against problematic lands (yes tehre are several of them). I ran spreading seas for a while, even if this was rather annoying to tap on my turn for them. I am now very glad that we have access to land destruction without having to go down in land count (which our deck hates to do) with the print of field of ruin. I ran two, plus a ghost quarter (down on land but no activation cost other than tap + sacrifice) to diversify a bit my land hate.
Since field of ruin also fixes colours, I have been down on a fetchland.
4 manlands has been the spot where I felt the most at ease. 1 creeping to mainly pressure planeswalkers and hedge against surgical effects.
The rest is filled with basics (6 has been quite good to feel quasi blood moon proof), 3 shocklands (necessary disease in 3 colours) and 2 checklands.
2) Removal
Quite standard for path and verdict (4/3 split).
I have never been in love with push since it is awesome in certain MUs and horrible in others !
At the same time, I want the flexibility to have cantrips which can turn in useful cards (the 4 think twice thing is definitely not for me), hence the inclusion of 2 azorius charm. Awesome tempo card in creature MUs, while being cycled in combo MUs or control MUs. The charm are complemented by a blessed alliance (flexed spot, this could be anything really).
3) Counterspells
Split 2-1 logic knot and leak because we do not always have the luxury to play knot early. I honestly believe that - in the late game - we can draw a bad card seeing the amount of draws we have.
Leak used to be a supreme will but right now I feel like one more mana makes from this a mid-late game card while I wanted this slot to be an early game card.
2 negates and 3 cryptic to complement this package.
4) Card filtering
4 serum visions because it is still the best rate you can have in seeing cards for the mana invested.
One search for azcanta makes a fifth one, while being an additional land (26th hidden land
5) card draws / advantage
4 charm, 2 snapcaster mage and 2 revelations, plus aforementioned serum visions, azcanta and azorius charm.
6) kills
I wanted to:
(i) have more kills than the classic version (looking for that one white sun's zenith in the deck can be ... very long);
(ii) that my kills contributes to my control plans.
I therefore went for 2 gideon of the trials (because yes we can tap 3 manas and still hold some for our draw go plan. Gideon keeps a lot of things at bay while being a very good finisher) and 2 secure the wastes (I know the advantage of white sun's but really I like the flexibility here, you can secure offensively or defensively depending on the circumstances).
7) Sideboard
If people are interested I can comment on it but you will notice one pattern which comes back frequently in it: 1 teachings - 1 permanent hoser - 1 instant hoser. I basically went for this configuration because I was sick of lantern (tutor the recall after having enough on board to kill them) but it is proven to be quite efficient for other stuffs.
nimble obstructionnist is IMO the most underrated sideboard card currently (can stiffle that storm trigger, ulamog trigger and many more).
My opinion exactly. The "competitve diverisity", which I feel is just a contradiction in terms, hurts you more than it helps you. I'd honestly rather play a narrow field where metagaming actually means something.
UWGBant EldraziUWGDecided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.UBRGrixis ControlUBR
UUUAnd anything that plays 4x Cryptic CommandUUU
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So, there's been a lot of negativity towards UW Control recently, and I don't really know what changed, but UW just isn't putting up results anymore. Why? My bet is on 2 factors: Storm and 5c humans. Commonality? Both require extra spot removal and extra digging power (at instant speed too). Well, guess which color combo provides this evolution? I'll let you figure it out, but I will say that I'm posting on the Esper Draw-Go forum and leave it at that. So, that out of the way:
4x Celestial Colonnade
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Drowned Catacomb
3x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Delta
2x Watery Grave
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
2x Plains
1x Swamp
Walkers (3)
2x Gideon of the Trials
1x Gideon Jura
3x Mana Leak
1x Logic Knot
1x Negate
3x Cryptic Command
Removal (11)
4x Path to Exile
1x Fatal Push
1x Blessed Alliance
2x Detention Sphere
3x Supreme Verdict
Card Advantage/Selection (14)
4x Opt
3x Spreading Seas
4x Esper Charm
1x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Dispel
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Collective Brutality
1x Celestial Purge
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Negate
1x Runed Halo
3x Spell Queller
1x Supreme Verdict
I may be on this list for a while, and will be testing it. Let me know your thoughts.
Edit: Oh, and for those tempted to complain about the fact that this deck isn't entirely Draw-Go -- you're right. It's not. But I don't think it matters at this point. It's certainly more controlling than UW, Jeskai, or UR Kiki. I don't know whether UR Breach is comparable or not.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
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I think playing cards like gideons and spreading seas, which were for a minute un-cuttable in UW is going to be a bit more suspect moving forwards.
The list you posted is using a lot of aspects of UW (which worked in the past and currently doesn't work as well) which is a bit suspect. Not to say its bad, but I think modelling a deck off of a currently-struggling deck is not a good choice.
One of the reasons esper has been relatively stable is because we don't have as many narrow cards, like jace AoT, gideons, spreading seas, wall of omens, etc. Path, push and verdict are pretty much good vs everything. Knot and cryptic are pretty much good vs everything, etc, and they're good vs everything at all times, to a degree.
As you mentioned, esper charm and fatal push give UW tools it is definitely lacking, and even if a UW control splash a little bit of black isn't the same as our stock lists, it may still be the correct answer, but I'm not convinced that's what I'm looking at.
I also added a runed halo to the sb over the third thoughtseize as I love having such a clean catchall to things.
I managed to grab a 5-0 with it and was hoping we would get posted but alas need to grab another to get it up.
Esper draw go Control!
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As @cody_x stated; UW is a meta deck and the meta has shifted, UW players just haven't caught up yet. That said, I think Esper Draw-Go is better than it has been in a long time, but still not proactive enough to dethrone UW or Jeskai, as the nature of esper is reactive.
I've been having some really good results with the list below so I thought I'd share it and my reasoning behind certain choices:
2 Blessed Alliance
4 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
3 Supreme Verdict
Counters:
4 Spell Snare
4 Cryptic Command
2 Negate
Draw:
4 Esper Charm
4 Think Twice
2 Sphinx's Revelation
Wincon/Value:
2 Secure the Wastes
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Mystic Gate
2 Plains
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Steam Vents
2 Dispel
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Extirpate
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Stony Silence
2 Crumble to Dust
1 Supreme Verdict
To make this post a bit shorter, I've put the changes in spoilers below, plus this way you can just cut to the bits you're interested in, rather than reading me waffle on.
Goyf, Snapcaster etc, but is also really useful against storm. It hits their enabler creatures, Manamorphose, their rituals and can slow them down enough that we can win G1 with snapcasters (only done this once, so mileage may vary). Also, it helps sure up the burn and mirror matches too!
stony silence and crumble to dust don't come in against many other match ups than the obvious. I don't really feel this limits the chances against other decks though, due to the build in the main board, and the other sideboard cards that can help in other matches. Against Aggro, we have 8 cheap removal spells main board, plus 3 sweepers, with an additional sweeper and life gain in the board. Against control we have 10 hard counters, with an additional 2 in the board, plus 2 more threats we can side in (depending on the match up I may also side in extirpates to remove counterspells from their deck which helps immensely). Our maindeck is just generally good against midrange, with additional removal, threats and counter-magic in the board dependant on the type of deck we're playing against.
And against burn, the 6 sources of life gain, and 12 hard counters post sideboard make this a solid 70+% in our favour I feel, and so I don't really worry about much in this match up, except blood moon.
The deck itself has gone 12-2 so far, losing to Merfolk (I still can't side properly against them, they are the reason I added the additional Verdict to my board), and a Blue-Black Super friends control list, though I misplayed pretty badly G2 so this may have been winnable.
Changes I'm looking into: I'd like to add another Snapcaster to assist in consistency, but I'm not sure what I'd take out at this point.
Anyway, I hope the above is useful to you, probably not as useful as this thread has been to me since I started modern, but hopefully something in this post helps!
4 wild nacatl
4 narnam renegade
4 burning-tree emissary
4 hidden herbalists
4 goblin bushwhacker
4 reckless bushwhacker
4 lupine prototype
4 lightning bolt
2 devastating summons
3 mutagenic growth
2 stomping ground
1 sacred foundry
1 temple garden
1 steam vents
1 breeding pool
1 mountain
1 forest
4 wooded foothills
4 arid mesa
3 windswept heath
3 timely reinforcements
3 ancient grudge
2 rest in peace
1 grafdigger's cage
2 geist of saint traft
1 elspeth, knight-errant
2 dispel
1 mana tithe
Yeah, not proud of it.
I really don't like esper or control at all in this metagame. Esper has been generally successful at going generally bigger than all the midrange decks and then targeting a small number of linear aggro decks and riding grave hate and cryptics + charms to victory against combo.
In this metagame, that doesn't work. With death's shadow on the decline, and eldrazi tron squeezing out bgx, we don't have our "easy" matchups often anymore. Eldrazi always felt like an unfavorable matchup simply due to the fact that their best draws had no answer from our side, and their mediocre draws required everything else to go right for us to have a shot.
The problem is that eldrazi and fatal push have "pushed out" most of the normal linear aggro decks because they fold to one removal spell plus a fast clock. This is why we see infect and affinity performing well: they can ignore the clock and easily eat a removal spell or two.
That's why I've gone over to the dark side for a while; small zoo is blisteringly fast to crush storm and otherwise laughs at opponents who think a removal spell into a 6/6 is enough to stabilize the board.
Until the metagame shifts, I'm not on esper. Conditions for hard control just do not feel favorable with the way the format is squeezing now. If the PT in a few months mucks up the metagame a bit I'll re-evaluate, but I feel much safer playing the metagame lottery with a deck that can frequently attack for 12 on turn two.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Also I noticed how you're playing a deck that's a horrendous matchup for Esper LOL. Burn, Esper, and Zoo are some very polarized deck choices
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
Not going to lie, I jammed Living End at the last two local events and went 3-0-1 split for first and 3-1 take 3rd. If your deck can’t just cheese out a win in this meta, it’s probably a bad choice for you to pilot.
I’ve always found that Control players pilot combo/aggro decks better than the average player does, maybe that’s why we’re all reaching the conclusion at similar times. Lol
All seriousness!!
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Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
Spells (28)
2 Fatal Push
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Path to Exile
1 Secure the Wastes
4 Serum Visions
2 Thoughtseize
3 Logic Knot
4 Esper Charm
1 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Cryptic Command
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Flooded Strand
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Celestial Purge
2 Dispel
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Gideon Jura
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Supreme Verdict
I've been very bad with draw-go, but with this list being more proactive, I've had some success. I can deal with Affinity, Storm, U-Tron and also some DS, Burn (post-board mostly) and TitanShift. This version is not draw-go at all, but more proactive and it's where I want it to be now. Modern is about being fast and proactive and draw-go is slow and reactive. This version is slow also (control will be control right?), but very proactive with IoK and Thoughtseize and some board presence with GoST. Even having Serum Visions feels like a big improvement for cantriping and setting up the correct draws.
I really don't want to bash out on draw-go and you guys are more experienced than I am, but it's just my 2 cents on a list that has been winning in my meta and is not so bad looking I think.
Any comments would be appreciated
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
You have Geist of Saint Traft, but only 6 removal spells to remove the blockers.
Also, targeted discard is bad if you don't follow it up with a threat of some sort. Think of every game against Jund that they played triple Thoughtseize into nothing.
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Esper draw go Control!
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I think it's way better to start reevaluating the card choices than to just "throw it on the back burner". So what cards are we interested in for this meta? Fatal Push and Path are a must, but we could go with Collective Brutality to pitch dead cards against combo (it also can kill Electromancer against Storm, and is great against company). I like counters in this meta too, so I think Logic Knot and Leak are a good place to be. D-Sphere seems like it's in a good place too. What are some cards that we've overlooked? What is wrong with our core, and how can we adjust it?
Could we support a Queller/Clique/Obstructionist package?
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
If you wanted to go proactive, the first place I would look would be Tasigur, clique and Lilly the last hope or Gifts and Azcanta + Thopter-sword. But none of those are esper draw-go, so the ideas get shot down a lot.
We need something (or multiple somethings) that answer huge swaths of the format at low cost.
Path to exile is great, fatal push is alright, but logic knot is mediocre at best, and the list ends there.
Its not even that control needs a defined meta to succeed, but control needs to show up with appropriate answers, and thats not really possible.
(For what its worth, UW isn't very effective right now).
As for proactivity, tasigur + clique + lili the last hope isn't good. Its never been good, and its going to take something big to make it good.
I've played plenty of lingering souls before, and that deck is not good in esper colors. Even in grixis, where an established deck using tasigur + snap, etc, existed, isn't good anymore.
For thoptersword, I am currently trying this, but its not been good in the past, and I'm not optimistic about now. I've yet to find a list I'm happy with, and with the current card pool, I don't expect to find one at all.
I've still had more success with the "classic" list than with anything else (and I've still been doing alright), but theres a pretty good chance I'm just going to play shadow for a while.
Thus, If answers are not the way to approach a meta, the other option is threats. Threats are by definition, proactive.
I agree that UW is not at its best right now either, it's still too reactive. Even the 'proactive' element of UW is sort of reactive, it requires the opponent to have a greedy or weak mana base/land draw.
its half the story, yes, but if there are answers that beat everything (or a set of answers) then we dont need a specific meta, because we can just show up with force + terminus + countertop (or something).