Hi, once again here asking for some advice. How do you approach the jeskai "midrange/control" MU? Example list below
Creature (11)
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Spell Queller
I've been having difficulties here - is it a bad approach on my side or they have the upper hand? How do you approach SB? (bring cliques? bring Leyline? thoughtseize? grave hate?)
Depends on what your list looks like.
Leyline should probably come in, and some removal spells should come out. (You probably want ~2 verdict, and 3-4 path, 0 push).
Cut cryptics as well if you need more space.
My list is pretty stock, WSZ as wincing, 2 opt, 2 spell snare, 4 verdict, 2 blessed alliance main as perks. But what's the plan? I fell like we can't resolve anything big, and at some point they will have threats on board and counters in hand, also ready to bolt snap bolt us. I was actually thinking of leaving the 4 verdicts in, which sounds totally weird, but at least it's an insurance against anything that sticks. Baiting counters to rev main phase is what I always try to do, but it seems fragile. I only feel confident when I draw enough esper charms...
What are your guys’ thoughts on Torpor Orb right now?
What exactly did you have in mind when it comes to Torpor Orb? It doesn't do anything against Burn, Storm, Affinity, Tron, Jund, Abzan, Adnaus, and Dredge, and only hits 1 card out of Grixis Shadow (Snapcaster) and Eldrazi (Thought-Knot Seer). It's only good against Humans (presumably), MAYBE BW Taxes (depending on their list), Company decks, and Titanshift (at least, just for the Titan tiggers -- I don't know that we care about Rec Sage/Baloth that much). Seems too narrow.
The list you posted seems pretty close to "normal" but +1 gideon -1 secure, which isn't a terribly wild change.
As much as I like gideon in straight UW control, not a big fan of him here, nor am I a fan of 3-3 spot removal splits, but I can get over that.
I like that despite his inclusion of opt, he's still on 4 tt, 4 charm, 2 rev.
seems like its going to become the standard.
I have not had all that much opportunity to play modern recently, unfortunately, and I've spent a bunch of it not playing esper, so I still withhold my judgment on opt's inclusion or not/
-Thought-Knot Seer
-Blade Splicer
-Tidehollow Sculler
-Kitchen Finks
-Anafenza
-Entire humans deck(if it picks up steam)
-Snapcaster Mage
-Spell Queller
-Kiki-Jiki Combo (as it continues to pick up momentum)
And considering that Thought-Knot Seer & Snapcaster Mage are found in approximately 28% of the meta right now, in different decks, I think a card that hits no less than a third of the field would be viable for discussion.
Also it also has fringe applications in some other MUs that could be worth mentioning - from Valakut there are Titan triggers, Acidic Slime style of creatures if they’re on that plan. Siege rhino from abzan (on the decline but still).
I think Torpor Orb against UW is a great choice. Spell Queller and Snapcaster become cruddy flash dudes. Not saying this card is some overlooked answer to the format, but there are certainly some merits
I have not had all that much opportunity to play modern recently, unfortunately, and I've spent a bunch of it not playing esper, so I still withhold my judgment on opt's inclusion or not/
I can assure you the card is very nice in any blue deck that wants to play at instant speed.
So far its been nice for the slight consistency increase, but its also not struck me as immediately worthy of the deck space.
Its still early (for me) though.
As for torpor orb, sure it hits a bunch of individual cards, but you'd probably only bring it in vs humans, taxes, and some chord decks.
Hitting snapcaster is great, but I'm not playing torpor orb vs UW control.
Hitting TKS is also great, but I'm not bringing it in vs eldrazi tron.
I guess it hits spell queller too, but I'm not sure if its really worth bringing in there.
No matter what, I don't feel like I would play it.
If humans becomes a problem, I feel there are almost certainly better cards to be playing (maxing out on spot removal, to start with)
I’d drfinitely slot it in vs UW Control, they don’t play incremental advantage that we do so they rely on their creatures to provide it.
Any taxes deck I’d side it in against also, especially Eldrazi taxes.
Counters company loses a lot of power - renegade rallier, eternal witness, infinite life combo/infinite +1/+1 Combo, they ALSO are starting to play Spell Queller... definitely a house there.
Again, not saying this card is the truth, just spitballing ideas on more applicable cards for the board as the meta continues to shift.
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Torpor Orb is really bad against UW. UW tends to play 2 snapcaster and most players on zero Quellers in the board. Some players run 4 Quellers or 1-2 Clique but even in best cast scenario against 2 Snap and 4 Queller, Orb is only slightly worse for them than it will be for you (assuming you are on at least 3 snaps) while costing you a card.
What are your guys’ thoughts on Torpor Orb right now?
What exactly did you have in mind when it comes to Torpor Orb? It doesn't do anything against Burn, Storm, Affinity, Tron, Jund, Abzan, Adnaus, and Dredge, and only hits 1 card out of Grixis Shadow (Snapcaster) and Eldrazi (Thought-Knot Seer). It's only good against Humans (presumably), MAYBE BW Taxes (depending on their list), Company decks, and Titanshift (at least, just for the Titan tiggers -- I don't know that we care about Rec Sage/Baloth that much). Seems too narrow.
I like the list. I'm almost on the same 60 the only difference is I'm on a 4/2 removal split, 2 secures, and 1 d sphere where he's over the gideon and either a think twice/opt (not sure which to cut yet, been testing. My heart tells me to cut an opt but don't have enough info yet). Our 75s vary a bit, bu
Of course if you’re bringing it in, you back down on snaps. I also only play 2 right now, I kept feeling like I was snap-flooding and ended up jamming them for no value too often, so I swapped 3rd out for Gideon Jura.
UW is also on Wall of Omens right now, which isn’t great but blanking more cards for them is exactly the name of our game in control mirrors.
I just want more “buckshot” sideboard cards than bullets, I’d rather know I have an extra 5-10% sitting in my board for any given MU than an extra 25% for a select few. That’s why I play Control, to have a pretty level field.
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If you want more impactful sideboard cards for the creature spam decks, Night of Souls' Betrayal is on-par with Stony Silence in those matchups. It also happens to lock out Affinity as well, so you can technically cut Stony Silences for them. That's what I used to do, before deciding that Company decks were to small a piece of the metagame to warrant running 14 black mana sources.
I think Stony on T2 is more important to me than NoSB on t4, even though I believe it’s a better Card against them in a vacuum.
I think me and my partner decided we are going to ship off most of the deck, U/x control doesn’t look to be an archetype with a long future ahead of it. Cards like Freebooter are just so good against us.
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Depends on what you mean by a long future.
UW/X control isn't a terribly successful archtype right now, and on the whole, has never been in this format. That being said, we're not too many printings away from something reasonable (and we've gotten quite a number of printings recently). Another good card + a meta shift could really do wonders for us.
Freebooter is alright, but really, those cards have always existed. Humans is the big thing right now, so its very represented, but its hard to say if its just a flash in the pan or not. One way or another, humans is very beatable, even if UWB isn't the best way to do it.
I think Stony on T2 is more important to me than NoSB on t4, even though I believe it’s a better Card against them in a vacuum.
I think me and my partner decided we are going to ship off most of the deck, U/x control doesn’t look to be an archetype with a long future ahead of it. Cards like Freebooter are just so good against us.
Obviously Stony Silence is the best card imaginable against Affinity. My point was that Affinity is an easy enough matchup that you could consider giving up points if you had it out for another archetype. If this humans deck was what you're worried about (deck seems to just be a Thalia deck that was hot on a weekend with a lot of Storm), I'd be willing to bet Night of Soul's Betrayal would make the match unlosable, if drawn. They either kill you with the early blitz, or their Champions, Thalia's Lieutenants, and Mayors are dead draws and they have to win with a bunch of Grizzly Bears.
Of course if you're just "done" with the archetype then no need to front. Control was never going to be Tier 1 in Modern and you were always going to be a temporary resident...
I’ve played Esper since modern became a format, from gifts to teachings to even a Delver Midrange list when UW Tron was all the rage. But I feel like the meta has gotten to a point where it’s consistently fast enough to cheese control decks out of the format. I can’t imagine a meta moving forward that’s favorable to Draw-Go is all I meant.
Deaths shadow across the table feels just like a legacy opponent, not unbeatable (but neither is Grixis Delver in legacy - my partner and I have jammed it before, it’s as atrocious as you’d think... maybe 25/75 but still!). Storm is currently a t3 goldfish, t4 through disruption with no ban this go round. WotC keeps printing cheap dudes with tempo advantage written all over them (not good for us).
I’m out on this one for the foreseeable future, find me when we have an equivalent engine to CounterTop! Lol
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I definitely feel you that it seems like every other archtype is getting pushed more, but wizards is quite obviously not inclusive of draw-go.
Sometimes, I feel like if you made a card game that put foremost all of the things wizards has explicitly toned down on (decreased consistency, worse counterspells, more narrow/expensive answers, creatures with spells stapled on, etc) you'd end up with a better game than magic :/
As it is though, what do you plan to play instead? I assume you're not going to be playing blue (or playing modern )
We have E-Tron, Storm, Living End, Affinity, BGx Midrange, and Deaths Shadow available. I’ll probably play Storm while it’s hot, spend a few months NOT going to time every round, rack up some store cred, then buy into whatever comes out strong from the PT.
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Creature (11)
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Spell Queller
Spells (25)
4x Serum Visions
2x Spell Snare
4x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
3x Logic Knot
2x Electrolyze
3x Cryptic Command
Land (24)
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Flooded Strand
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Steam Vents
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Sulfur Falls
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
Sideboard (15)
1x Dispel
1x Negate
1x Disdainful Stroke
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Vendilion Clique
1x RIP
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Wear // Tear
I've been having difficulties here - is it a bad approach on my side or they have the upper hand? How do you approach SB? (bring cliques? bring Leyline? thoughtseize? grave hate?)
@amalek0 if you are out there too!
Leyline should probably come in, and some removal spells should come out. (You probably want ~2 verdict, and 3-4 path, 0 push).
Cut cryptics as well if you need more space.
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What exactly did you have in mind when it comes to Torpor Orb? It doesn't do anything against Burn, Storm, Affinity, Tron, Jund, Abzan, Adnaus, and Dredge, and only hits 1 card out of Grixis Shadow (Snapcaster) and Eldrazi (Thought-Knot Seer). It's only good against Humans (presumably), MAYBE BW Taxes (depending on their list), Company decks, and Titanshift (at least, just for the Titan tiggers -- I don't know that we care about Rec Sage/Baloth that much). Seems too narrow.
@all
Anyone been following MouT's challenge results with Esper? He's got a very interesting list that went 4-3 and 4-2? link: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/794234#paper
What do you guys think of the deck choice?
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
As much as I like gideon in straight UW control, not a big fan of him here, nor am I a fan of 3-3 spot removal splits, but I can get over that.
I like that despite his inclusion of opt, he's still on 4 tt, 4 charm, 2 rev.
A list like:
3 snapcaster mage
1 white sun's zenith
4 path to exile
2 fatal push
3 supreme verdict
3 logic knot
4 cryptic command
4 opt
4 think twice
4 esper charm
2 sphinx's revelation
seems like its going to become the standard.
I have not had all that much opportunity to play modern recently, unfortunately, and I've spent a bunch of it not playing esper, so I still withhold my judgment on opt's inclusion or not/
-Thought-Knot Seer
-Blade Splicer
-Tidehollow Sculler
-Kitchen Finks
-Anafenza
-Entire humans deck(if it picks up steam)
-Snapcaster Mage
-Spell Queller
-Kiki-Jiki Combo (as it continues to pick up momentum)
And considering that Thought-Knot Seer & Snapcaster Mage are found in approximately 28% of the meta right now, in different decks, I think a card that hits no less than a third of the field would be viable for discussion.
Also it also has fringe applications in some other MUs that could be worth mentioning - from Valakut there are Titan triggers, Acidic Slime style of creatures if they’re on that plan. Siege rhino from abzan (on the decline but still).
I think Torpor Orb against UW is a great choice. Spell Queller and Snapcaster become cruddy flash dudes. Not saying this card is some overlooked answer to the format, but there are certainly some merits
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
I can assure you the card is very nice in any blue deck that wants to play at instant speed.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Its still early (for me) though.
As for torpor orb, sure it hits a bunch of individual cards, but you'd probably only bring it in vs humans, taxes, and some chord decks.
Hitting snapcaster is great, but I'm not playing torpor orb vs UW control.
Hitting TKS is also great, but I'm not bringing it in vs eldrazi tron.
I guess it hits spell queller too, but I'm not sure if its really worth bringing in there.
No matter what, I don't feel like I would play it.
If humans becomes a problem, I feel there are almost certainly better cards to be playing (maxing out on spot removal, to start with)
Any taxes deck I’d side it in against also, especially Eldrazi taxes.
Counters company loses a lot of power - renegade rallier, eternal witness, infinite life combo/infinite +1/+1 Combo, they ALSO are starting to play Spell Queller... definitely a house there.
Again, not saying this card is the truth, just spitballing ideas on more applicable cards for the board as the meta continues to shift.
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
I like the list. I'm almost on the same 60 the only difference is I'm on a 4/2 removal split, 2 secures, and 1 d sphere where he's over the gideon and either a think twice/opt (not sure which to cut yet, been testing. My heart tells me to cut an opt but don't have enough info yet). Our 75s vary a bit, bu
UW is also on Wall of Omens right now, which isn’t great but blanking more cards for them is exactly the name of our game in control mirrors.
I just want more “buckshot” sideboard cards than bullets, I’d rather know I have an extra 5-10% sitting in my board for any given MU than an extra 25% for a select few. That’s why I play Control, to have a pretty level field.
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
I think me and my partner decided we are going to ship off most of the deck, U/x control doesn’t look to be an archetype with a long future ahead of it. Cards like Freebooter are just so good against us.
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
UW/X control isn't a terribly successful archtype right now, and on the whole, has never been in this format. That being said, we're not too many printings away from something reasonable (and we've gotten quite a number of printings recently). Another good card + a meta shift could really do wonders for us.
Freebooter is alright, but really, those cards have always existed. Humans is the big thing right now, so its very represented, but its hard to say if its just a flash in the pan or not. One way or another, humans is very beatable, even if UWB isn't the best way to do it.
Of course if you're just "done" with the archetype then no need to front. Control was never going to be Tier 1 in Modern and you were always going to be a temporary resident...
Deaths shadow across the table feels just like a legacy opponent, not unbeatable (but neither is Grixis Delver in legacy - my partner and I have jammed it before, it’s as atrocious as you’d think... maybe 25/75 but still!). Storm is currently a t3 goldfish, t4 through disruption with no ban this go round. WotC keeps printing cheap dudes with tempo advantage written all over them (not good for us).
I’m out on this one for the foreseeable future, find me when we have an equivalent engine to CounterTop! Lol
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
Sometimes, I feel like if you made a card game that put foremost all of the things wizards has explicitly toned down on (decreased consistency, worse counterspells, more narrow/expensive answers, creatures with spells stapled on, etc) you'd end up with a better game than magic :/
As it is though, what do you plan to play instead? I assume you're not going to be playing blue (or playing modern )
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