MTG Salvation

@Legionarie513 - That's the first Esper list I've seen that looks like it can effectively take advantage of the Xerox principles. I've stated, and been echoed by many in here, that just because you can theoretically spend the first few turns cantripping into your land drops, doesn't mean the pay off is worth it. With the high number of 1 mana interaction spells you have, and the high impact mid-late game spells (Elpeth, Verdict), cantripping into lands will probably keep you alive until you have the mana for your pay-offs. Elspeth feels like the perfect card to take advantage of falling behind early while drawing cards. I like Secure the Waste as a payoff here as well since it scales nicely. I'll state my bias against Rev up front, but I don't think Rev fits what you're trying to do. Getting to 6 mana is going to be tough enough for your payoff in Elspeth, and X=5 on Secure is going to be decent. But x=3 on Rev as a late game spell that also rots in your hand early is going to be very underwhelming, especially when you're using it to draw into such a limited number of high impact spells. I might recommend Sorin, Grim Nemesis as that additional payoff over Rev. Huge loyalty, can kill most threats, card advantage+wincon on the +. I don't think this card is too far behind Elspeth in power level. Maybe 2x Elspeth is better, but I also like having a diversity because of legend rule and extraction effects.

I think your concerns about getting taken off Azcanta and colours are very real when not running any other lands that are going to draw fire from GQ/Edge/Ruin/Seas etc, not really sure that is a hurdle that you're going to be able to get over often. Maybe the Sorin + Souls plan will be enough to overcome that in postboard games against those kind of decks.

My other concern is that Serum Visions seems bad in a deck with 9 Fetchlands and 2 Azcanta. It doesn't play particularly well with either side of Search for Azcanta. You might be better off running Sleight of Hand. I don't think I've ever made the suggestion of Sleight over Serum in a control deck, but I think it's right here.

My only other comment might be that you could try some 1cmc discard spells in the main - it could be important to take some key threats from your opponent while cantripping for lands in the early game to help you survive. Could be good over the remands.

Keep us posted on your results - Cheers.

Im curious if there is any thought or math in how many black sources you should have for a 25 or 26 land manabase, if the only black spells are 4 charm and 2 push. I currently have 1 swamp, 1 watery grave, 1 godless shrine, 1 drowned catacomb and 1 (conditional) reflecting pool. I do 8 fetches (I see a lot of lists with one marsh flats - not sure about that myself)

Also wondering about buddy lands in general - I see some people running as many as four. I do one ub and one uw but not for any particular reason. Is there a rationale here on how many to play and which colours? I play reflecting pool to which is sort-of a glacial fortress with some upside. Only time its worse is if my other land is a basic or godless shrine and I wouldnt keep many 2 landers with no blue regardless

8 fetches (4 delta/4 strand), 2 watery grave, 1 sunken ruins, 1 swamp (for 12 total sources), plus 2 ghost quarter I guess, though obviously not the ideal play, is enough for me. I play 4 charm, 2 push as my only black spells mainboard, with more in the board.

I don't think most lists want to play marsh flats (I would only do it if I were playing 26 lands, and I really didn't want ghost quarter), but its not the worst.
For buddy lands, I think 2-3 is the sweet spot. Wafo has played a lot in the past, which I'm not sold on, but in general, you have 5-6 basics, ~8 fetches, ~4 colonnades, ~4 shocks, and a couple other lands to round things out. Utility lands (GQ/Tec Edge primarily) are nice, but you want to keep colorless lands to a minimum (I'd say max 2/26 in a standard build). For your last couple of dual lands, you have the options of more shocks (painful, but fetchable and always untapped), more manlands (always tapped, rarely necessary), filter lands (weaker in multiples, but good fixing, especially if you like fetching basics), check lands (basically higher floor, lower ceiling filter lands, not as weak in multiples). Lastly you also have river of tears, but its not terribly popular in this deck, though its probably playable. Hard to argue its better than drowned catacombs though. If we played damnation, I could see it.

I know some people like reflecting pool (I'd rather play filters), but there is definitely tension with pool + godless shrine. (You want to have all of your colors for pool, so being able to fetch shrine is good, but having both sucks, especially if you also play 3 nonisland basics and 1-2 colorless lands) Sure, you aren't gonna keep a no-blue hand, but having to mull otherwise good hands (if only the pool was a checkland/filter land) kinda blows.

Quote from Cody_X »

8 fetches (4 delta/4 strand), 2 watery grave, 1 sunken ruins, 1 swamp (for 12 total sources), plus 2 ghost quarter I guess, though obviously not the ideal play, is enough for me. I play 4 charm, 2 push as my only black spells mainboard, with more in the board.

I don't think most lists want to play marsh flats (I would only do it if I were playing 26 lands, and I really didn't want ghost quarter), but its not the worst.
For buddy lands, I think 2-3 is the sweet spot. Wafo has played a lot in the past, which I'm not sold on, but in general, you have 5-6 basics, ~8 fetches, ~4 colonnades, ~4 shocks, and a couple other lands to round things out. Utility lands (GQ/Tec Edge primarily) are nice, but you want to keep colorless lands to a minimum (I'd say max 2/26 in a standard build). For your last couple of dual lands, you have the options of more shocks (painful, but fetchable and always untapped), more manlands (always tapped, rarely necessary), filter lands (weaker in multiples, but good fixing, especially if you like fetching basics), check lands (basically higher floor, lower ceiling filter lands, not as weak in multiples). Lastly you also have river of tears, but its not terribly popular in this deck, though its probably playable. Hard to argue its better than drowned catacombs though. If we played damnation, I could see it.

I know some people like reflecting pool (I'd rather play filters), but there is definitely tension with pool + godless shrine. (You want to have all of your colors for pool, so being able to fetch shrine is good, but having both sucks, especially if you also play 3 nonisland basics and 1-2 colorless lands) Sure, you aren't gonna keep a no-blue hand, but having to mull otherwise good hands (if only the pool was a checkland/filter land) kinda blows.

Yea, I can agree with this. My land base has been the same for months after trying different configurations including filters, one less Watery Grave and/or one more Godless Shrine, with/without GQ, etc., and I've settled with the following:


Assuming you draw only 1 card a turn with no library manipulation and not counting the possibility that you fetch away lands within the first 3 turns, Stat Trek's hypergeometric calculator says that if you have a 60 card deck with 12 black sources (8 fetches, 2 Graves, 1 basic Swamp, 1 Drowned Catacombs), you are 88.7% likely to find at least 1 black source by T3 on the play and 91.3% likely on the draw. I'm not counting GQ, seeing as you wouldn't want to use it on yourself that early at all.

Now for some general thoughts. I've fought myself countless times over whether or not to run Godless Shrine, but it ultimately always comes down to never playing no more than 5 [edit] non-U mana sources, especially since I play Reflecting Pool. I'm just definitely not cutting down to less than 2 GQ or Plains; thus, the Shrine gave way. I really do think you want to play 2 Watery Graves, because, in many cases, you get the first one ponza'd/milled/discarded-to-Lili/Seas'd/etc. and you just need a backup black source without losing any U sources. Finally, I play Reflecting Pool because it's literally an always-untapped tri-land, but you can't really play more than 1 since they don't play well in multiples.

I'm guessing you mean 5 non-u sources (2 plains, 1 swamp, 2 gq). Otherwise, yea, having a second watery grave is good, especially now that we play push.

Quote from Cody_X »

I'm guessing you mean 5 non-u sources (2 plains, 1 swamp, 2 gq). Otherwise, yea, having a second watery grave is good, especially now that we play push.

Yea, my bad. Edited. =D

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/08-02-17-esper-draw-go/

That is my current list. Currently posting from mobile.

I'm so happy that of all the cards we play, our mana bases are almost always within 2 cards.

Regarding Opt: I played Living End tonight so I didn't get a live showing, but in 7-8 casual games.... it was unreal.

For testing, I went
-1 Think Twice (3 left)
-1 Blessed Alliance (1 left)
-1 Gideon Jura
-2 Negate
-1 Land (24 left)

+2 Search for Azcanta
+4 Opt

Opt on turn 1 felt stronger than expected, and I really enjoyed the Scry -> Draw more than I ever enjoyed Serum Visions. In a game against domain zoo, I held up for Opt and was able to fatal push a goblin guide that gave me a land instead of eating 2 dmg after drawing that land off a Serum.

Search only flipped 2 times for me, so I'm of the mind that it doesn't belong in the slower versions. When it flipped, it was dominating. I found back to back Esper Charms with it in a game against Abzan, which brought me right back into the game after a LotV ult took me to 3 lands and I topdecked the Search. It's not quite as potent against the aggro decks, but those aren't hugely common right now. A single Sphinx rev might indeed be correct, I didn't think to try that.

kodi can I see your list please?

Single rev with search is something I was thinking of as well. Im trying to get a handle on what search's role should be. Once it flips its a fantastic mana sink hitting gas pretty much every time. But it doesnt gain life and it can be ghost quartered. Can it replace the second rev then? I dont know. Right now I think of it as my fourth think twice because the stats line up so well, but tapping out for search on turn 2 can be really bad so it doesnt really plug that part of the curve the same way. It does kind of help with making land drops since we can scry away nonlands and when it flips it gives us a land.

Ive been liking 2 opt and could see trying the full playset soon for comparison, im just wary of putting too much air in the deck.

Th appealing part of search is that it doesn't require us to play as many lands as rev does, and it works better with a lot of cantrips. Appealing for a different build, but I'm not sure exactly how to fit it into a "stock" build, or if we even want to.

If I were sleeping up today, it's currently:

Quote from kodieyost »

If I were sleeping up today, it's currently:

TheAnnihilator0798's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
2 snapcaster Mage 1 Gideon Jura 1 white sun'd zenith 2 sphinxs's revelation 4 cryptic command 3 logic Knot 2 Negate 4 Path to exile 2 fatal push 2 blessed alliance	4 think twice 4 Esper charm 3 supreme verdict 26 lands 3 Celestial Colonnade 2 ghost quarter 4 flooded strand 4 polluted delta 1 marsh flats 1 plains 2 island 1 swamp 1 glacial fortress 1 drowned catacomb 3 hallowed fountain 2 watery grave 1 Godless Shrine

I think it's likely a mistake to be playing without Opt tbh.

This is where I'm at:


Could be correct to be on 3 Azcanta in Esper since we don't have the options to protect it from Ghost Quarter with Spreading Seas or our own LD lands as well as UW can. I don't like playing colorless sources in 3 color decks.

I wholeheartedly agree. I haven't received them in the mail so I can only test with them at this point.

-1 think twice
-2 land
-1 blessed alliance

+4 Opt

Or

-2 land
+2 opt

I also have an Azcanta in the mail, but I'm gonna be taking baby steps first. I like Azcanta, but not that much -- it still feels really do-nothing to me, tho I admit it's good. I just don't know if it's something Esper is in the market for.

Once it's online, it feels really good. I almost always like it at any point in the game, the earlier the better.

It's also relevant to Dump an early X spell into the yard against faster decks, but idk if that outweighs taking the turn off to cast it.

@Skylagger - Not sure why you would think Azcanta is dead if you draw it late, looks like you had more to say but didn't finish the thought. In any case, it's great in the late game. It means it's ready to flip next turn and you'll have the Mana to activate it every turn.

After playing with it a lot in UW (50ish matches) and now a bit in Esper (about 5 matches) I'd say that it is great in both decks but in Esper it requires some deckbuilding concessions whereas it doesn't in UW. I think in Esper you need 3 copies of Search and I think you need to run at least 2 Ghost Quarter. I'm not a huge fan of those choices, I'd rather be on 1-2 Search in any deck and 0-1 colorless lands in 3 colour decks. Even though the scry effect is great, it's been extremely frustrating to look across the table at a single GQ and not be able to find my only other copy of Azcanta and knowing that I have 0 GQ.

I think people are looking at it wrong, trying to slot it into their decks. This card is an engine all by itself, and you probably will have to reconfigure the deck to utilize this engine consistently.

I would think that you cut at least 1 Revelation, along with 2-3 Think Twice to run 3-4 copies of this card. If this is the gameplan going long, you're far less likely to loop Revelations and draw your entire deck, which makes you shift from Draw-Go towards Prison on the Control spectrum. All of a sudden cards that work well with locking up positional advantage without actually burying your opponent in a sudden avalanche of cards become much better. UW Control is already setup to do this with Crucible and Planeswalkers (v. creature decks), but there's no Counterbalance-style card to lock-out combo decks. Well, Runed Halo does a good impression but has so many holes in it.

One net positive of running more positional advantage permanents is that you can cut down on spot removal. I always thought 6 spells was excessive and would be glad to go back to 4 with replacements for the other 2 copies turning into something that is better in non-creature machups. Even UW Control went back down to 4, something i tried to replicate recently by using first Gideon of the Trials and then Runed Halo.

UW doesn't technically only run 4 removal spells right? They're typically on some number of Detention Sphere as well if I remember correctly. I don't know I never play UW because I enjoy UWr and UWb way more. Although I've been toying with ideas for UB lasts, no real testing for them though.