A bit of a tangent but I have played a lot of tezzeret/whir in modern and the deck is not hard to pilot at all. Every game has basically one decision point: do I need to disrupt or combo? If you dont need the bridge, needle, or cage you assemble thoptersword and make tokens til they die (or finish up w time sieve to simplify things). The deck vomits its hand quickly most games so its not like you have five cards in hand picking what to do next - you're usually playing from hellbent or heckbent to make your ensnaring bridges work.
Esper has some tougher calls because you have to optimize matching your answers to the threats, know when discard mode on charm works, when you need to verdict vs wait for more mana so you can negate a coco post-verdict, etc.
One of my big fears with opt is that ill get sucked into screwing my mana up because ill be going t1 island opt instead of the usual tapped colonnade or shockland; or that ill fall behind turn 2 if I tap out for a search for ancatenza only to have them resolve a liliana or gideon or whatever.
Depends on a lot on the lists. Some of them are more all-in on the prison/artifact lock pieces with little to no kill spells, discard spells, counterspells etc (I think this is the popular build) but some other lists (Think kind of like the thopter-gifts lists that sprung up a bit right after the unbanning) that are a bit more like classic control are difficult.
I think for esper, a turn 2 search will almost never be good. I suspect if we play it at all, we will try to drop it when we know it will flip the next turn, since we don't really gain much from it slowly filling up our graveyard with things.
Spell snare isn't terrible. The guy who just won the scg tournament with jeskai said he added spell snares back in, and was really happy with them.
Its not the same deck, obviously, but the card still has its place. Its possible you'll want to cut them, possible you won't.
I would definitely add the leylines main if you expect all of that 8rack/burn though.
Firewalker and stony are kind of two different cards, but IMO, firewalker is not terribly impressive in this deck.
While I do agree that colonnade is better, I don't think a 3/1 split is wrong if you can justify it.
As you mentioned about ghost quarter vs tect edge (and soon to be vs field of ruin) I originally ran ghost quarter because of decks like affinity, merfolk, infect, etc, that had early manlands you sometimes absolutely had to kill. With infect gone (the primary culprit), I've thought about going to tectonic edges, but I haven't actually done so. Maybe its time? I haven't played much with field of ruin yet (mostly focusing on opt / search in modern rn), but that may also be better. Anyways, I feel like we could probably stand to look at our land destruction slot again now.
The reason tasigur isn't played is because he makes all of our opponents removal live. He's easier to answer than a late-game, instant speed, EOT token machine.
Playing tasigur is taking a late game deck/strategy and trying to pick up free wins. Instead of stopping their plans, now we're trying to protect a 4/5. If you don't play Negate MB then you're playing some number of Logic Knot (I hope to god it isn't mana leak in your ideal list), which means you can't play him earlier than T3 reliably - and his Delve will remove all of your Logic Knot targets!
Tasigur doesn't work in our deck because we aren't actively filling our yard with nonrenewable resources. Everything in our GY has a purpose: fuel snapcaster flashbacks or fuel Logic Knot. Now I know you haven't played this deck (or at least not much) but even 3 snap 3 logic Knot can sometimes get tricky. I played it for 3 months and just recently relented, back down to 2 snap.
Tasigur delving 3-5 cards for a mere 4/5 that doesn't help in any of our bad MUs and which will rarely come down early - why is this something you're fixated on? You have to change the entire style of the deck to support him. Thoughtscours, some discard spells to help with GY parity compared to the dedicated Delve Shadow decks, less Logic Knot because we now aren't trying to go to turn 6+... why do you want to do this?
I addressed this already, but you've conveniently overlooked.
I'm not fixated on Tasigur at all. I actually don't like the card much. Again, my point is speaking to comments being made that are nonconstructive and dismissive unlike the one you just made, which addresses the issues with a card or strategy and why it doesn't work - that's the point of a forum, to have constructive conversation to move toward a goal, which I thought was making the deck more competitive. Though , it turns out I may have been wrong in my initial assessment; After rereading everyone's thoughts on viability and competitiveness I believe that the issue I've been bumping heads with is that the majority of the people who want the stock list to stay the way it always has are actually more concerned with playstyle (ie "I dislike sorceries, regardless of their objective strength") and enjoyment of the archetype (ie "it is fun and rewarding to battle uphill as a challenge") rather than competitiveness(ability to win tournaments) and that is perfectly fine. I think that would explain the differences in opinions as well as the differences in definitional discrepancies.
You also have 3 Spell Snare that are destined to disappoint. I wouldn't maindeck both Blessed Alliance and Fatal Push, either; I think the correct number of spot removal is going to be between 4 and 6.
I've ran Kor Firewalker in the board, but never drawn it against Burn. Is it actually stronger than Stony Silence?
Colonnade is preferable to Tar Pit because most creatures in Modern can't attack into it.
Ghost Quarter first became the rage when Infect blew up, and all you really cared about was hitting Nexus without tapping low or stopping Turn 3 Tron. I think if I was running those type of lands still, I'd go with Tectonic Edge. No real need to be Wastelanding before turn 4.
Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. I wasn't too sure about the Spell Snares myself--if I was taking the deck to a big event I might keep them in, but for my local meta I could see why they might not be too useful. I'm probably going to pick them up still, but will most likely replace them in my new initial list.
As for spot removal, I may start by removing the Fatal Pushes and just keeping the Blessed Alliances.
Personally I've always liked Kor Firewalker. In my experience it makes it MUCH harder for burn to win, but with the two Leylines being moved to the mainboard I could see why it would be overkill. I might replace that slot with more graveyard hate.
My reasoning for the 3/1 split is primarily to use the Tar Pit as a planeswalker killer. With 4 8-Rack decks all running Lilly, along with a decent number of other decks running PWs (Jaces, Lillys, Saheeli, etc) I feel like I'm going to need something to deal with them. Still, I can definitely see why the fourth Colonnade would also be good. I'll probably try the split first and go from there.
Chances are pretty good I'll need the early effect of Ghost Quarter rather than Tec Edge, unfortunately. Just found out we now have 2 Eldrazi Tron players, along with a number of potential GX Tron players as well.
As much as I hate Tron, I've tried disrupting their Tron assembly with T2 GQ and it just doesn't get us where we want to be. I'm much happier with Field of Ruins after testing about a dozen games with it replacing GQ against Tron.
Neither GQ nor Field are worth much against Valakut, if they beat us it's generally in one fell swoop as opposed to the land drop every turn that people seem to think it is.
Regarding Spell snare: I tried 3 MB a month or two ago, the coolest thing it's done for me is hit a Chalice for X=1 to keep me in the game against Eldrazi Tron.
Other than that, it was subpar against DS decks (only hits snap and terminate), didn't do a lot against Elves or coco, was abysmal against knightfall, et al.
It was alright against Burn, pretty great against BGx Midrange, and felt good against fish but I only cast 1.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
@RoboMemer on Discord
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
On stock list vs competitive and playing sorceries, I think maybe the tension is that we can make esper draw go competitive - add red for bolt and kcommand, cut white, drop the cryptics, stuborn denial in for negate, death shadow and angler for threats, drop the think twice for thought scour and play some discard over counterspells.
Wait... thats not esper draw go anymore is it? But it sure is competitive!
If you make the deck better by radically changing it odds are your just making a different deck. Playing serum visions, lingering souls, and tasigurs is a pretty short walk to esper midrange instead of draw-go control.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I thought we were talking of Swapping Timely out for Stony Silence, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Affinity folds to a Stony that's backed up by removal and protected well.
@BadMcFadden - that's exactly the sentiment I have shared as well. To make Esper Draw Go competitive, we don't shift out of draw go - we tune the details. Very nice example sir
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
@RoboMemer on Discord
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
Theres nothing wrong with more burnhate, but firewalker isn't your best option here. Timely is probably a better card, but I'm not even a huge fan of that. More leylines, blessed alliance, dispels, etc are good. If you want something super narrow, pulse of the fields is probably your best bet.
I will agree that timely never did it for me in esper. In other decks, its been a lot better, but I feel we have better options.
You don't usually want to use GQ early against tron lands. Against eldrazi tron, you need to save land destruction for cavern and wreckage, and against green based tron, you are far better off waiting until you get to cryptic command/snapcaster mana before losing your own lands. The possible exception being if you have an extraction + gq and feel its a reasonable play to make (which it often is, though it depends on the circumstances).
As for against titanshift, it depends a lot. I've lost games to land drop after land drop, I've lost games to one/two major threats. The second is more common for a lot of us if we play leyline/halo/extractions (because the first becomes nearly impossible).
I do think gq is good against valakut, and I feel field of ruin will be too, though perhaps not as good as tec edge.
The big thing, though, is the activation cost. I can hold up cryptic command and use gq on t5, tec edge not til t6, and field of ruin not til t7 (sometimes t6, depending on sequencing), which makes a big difference sometimes.
How spell snare did little for you against coco is beyond me. It hits nearly every creature in their deck that we care about. It misses e wit, it misses coco/chord, but otherwise, almost everything that matters in the matchup (combo pieces, spellskite/selfless spirit, recruiter, voice, scooze, sculler, etc)
Its also good vs affinity, hatebears, other control decks, storm, etc.
Circle jerking around a strawman lol. No one is talking about putting Lingering Souls + Tasigur + Serum Visions, etc (look at my decklist that had Tas in it and tell me that's not draw-go lmao). At least Cody was honest enough in his response (which I appreciate). Anyways, the problem with spell snare is how polarizing it is as a card - it's either extremely good and you want more, or it's not a card at all and you're just hoping the opponent plays anything into it. I don't think given our limited space in the deck can use a slot on such a polarizing card. It works in the Geist deck because they can afford to have a dead card when they're killing their opponent - the "stock" lists are all ready playing 26 lands..you can't really afford to add cards that have a decent shot at winding up being not relevant. For that reason I'm just not a big fan of Spell Snare until over 60% of the expected decks are vulnerable to the card. Looking at the format I'd actually rather have Censor than Spell Snare. There are just a ton of decks that just want to curve (and I'm not really advocating for Censor mind you, just that if given the choice, I'd not pick Spell Snare) out and tap out for the first 4 or 5 turns (and we're playing Path, so the window of this card being good is hilariously narrow, yet, I'd still play it over Snare, which shows how low I am on that card).
As for burn hate. If you want a card that it's extremely good against burn, and acceptable in a host of other MU's (spell-based combo, potentially other control decks, CoCo decks, etc.), just play Collective Brutality. I've never been unhappy to have 2 of this card in my SB. Blessed Alliance is not a bad alternative or in addition to as well. I do play 1 Timely because in my meta there are a lot of aggro and burn decks so it's been good for me, but in larger meta's I'd probably play something else in that slot.
Hey all. I've been playing esper for about a year now and have been piloting the below list at several local I.Q.s with pretty good success. These have been my first few competitive events of 50-60 people. I don't believe there are many BAD match ups in the meta, as long as you are on top of your game games 2 and 3. Most of my match ups I was very capable of winning but lost due to poor playing or impatience.
My first IQ I went 3-3
1. Jeskai
1-2
Lost game 1 to too much removal, game 3 went to turns.
2. Burn
1-2
Won game 1, lost game 2 before cryptic could get online. Game 3 went longer but ran low on land drops because I sided some out after g2, wasn't able to dig fast enough for answers.
3. Abzan
2-0
Bgx is always easy imo.
4. Esper taxes
2-0
Weird brew but pulled through going to turns.
5. Bant knightfall
2-0
Both games played out great. Opponent got a little annoyed at my cryptic chains.
6. Some kind of bant lands deck
1-2
I started running out of steam this game. I killed to 5 because I hadn't finished sideboarding out from the last match because we went so long. Won game 1 anyways. Game 2 I wasn't sure what to expect still. Game 3 opponent psyched me out on spell quellers and I started playing too scared, it lost me the game.
My second IQ I went 3-2-1
1. Eldrazi Tron
0-2
I started this day pretty poorly, game 1 was full of misplays like attempting to logic knot a matter reshaped for 1 with tron up and choosing the wrong mode for esper charm. Game 2 went alot better, but wasn't able to find a path or d sphere for ulamog.
2. Eldrazi Tron
1-1
Game 1 went pretty long eventually scooping to make time for another game. Game 2 went to turns, with me revving for 12 on turn 5 against an empty board grabbing a win from my opp.
3. Breachshift valakut
2-0
I was actually really nervous about this match up coming in pretty much I let a sakura tribe elder resolve both games and countered everything else. Leaving the opp a bit salty.
4. Baby emeria titan
2-0
I've played against uw builds before, it's pretty straight forward, keep emeria off the field if possible kill everything else.
5. 4c kiki chord
2-1
Slower decks like these are pretty good match ups. Kill the elves keep the combo off the table.
6. Burn
1-2
Game 1 I was able to slow him down to a crawl, winning off an eot secure the wastes turn 4. Game 2 he had a brutal hand. Game 3 I lost due to impatience, I cast an eot sphinx's rev for 3, thinking he drew a land and I needed more gas, he casts a sharding volley in response for the win.
I look forward to working with this list more as i feel it plays out very well. With the new addition of opt to our arsenal I think there's alot of potential in esper for the future.
Then please, tell me what "drastic changes" our stock list could make. The deck is very tight, and you yourself have just illustrated that in your argument against Spell Snare
@Cody - it's not that Spell snare doesn't have targets against Coco decks, just that it felt subpar. I swapped out 2 Negate 1 Knot for 3 Snare, and it left me feeling sorely unprepared for Coco/Chord, which were much more likely to end the game than a main phase Vizier or Rallier or what have you.
@Blackdog - nice write up, glad to see someone taking the deck to events! Sorry to hear the Jeskai matchup hasn't been kind to you
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
@RoboMemer on Discord
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
Normally jeskai feels like a safe match up. I even decided on the d sphere main and 1 of spell snare for that match up. Though the first tournament I was +1 serum vision -1 logic knot. I definitely felt the counter shortage game 1.
Then please, tell me what "drastic changes" our stock list could make. The deck is very tight, and you yourself have just illustrated that in your argument against Spell Snare
@Cody - it's not that Spell snare doesn't have targets against Coco decks, just that it felt subpar. I swapped out 2 Negate 1 Knot for 3 Snare, and it left me feeling sorely unprepared for Coco/Chord, which were much more likely to end the game than a main phase Vizier or Rallier or what have you.
@Blackdog - nice write up, glad to see someone taking the deck to events! Sorry to hear the Jeskai matchup hasn't been kind to you
I don't think you argue in good faith, but nonetheless.
Dropping at least 2-3 lands, playing more selection/cantrips, moving away from the X-spells (playing 1 Sphinx, no StW/WSZ), playing more spot removal and less 4 mana ***'s, replacing TT with Glimmer or Scour the Lab, playing 4 Snaps, etc. In other words, becoming more mana efficient to match the format. The traditional Esper lists have so many clunky opening hands and the deck mulligans poorly due to its 26 land count. If you want drastic how about this list I'm thinking I'll sleeve up when Opt comes out:
There are some optimizations that I need to make with more testing. That's 25 land sources per Frank Karsten. The mana has been very good, so no complaints there for the most part. I think I want to cut the 2 Thought Scours though since in testing I haven't really needed its mill effect for Scour Lab. or LK. Those 2 slots could be something like 1 TT and the 4th Cryptic, or 2 Serum Visions, or a Serum Vision + the 4th Cryptic, or whatever. Lili could stay or go, but she's good in the go-wide MU's and grindy MU's where the spot removal may not be entirely adequate. She could probably just be a Damnation if needed. The deck is UB based so making the mana work for Supreme Verdict really isn't in the cards.
Of course, I'm the only schmoe playing a decklist like this (Architects/Scour Lab), so it's anyone's guess how well it'd perform outside of localized meta (my only source of testing - where it's performed extremely well). That drastic enough?
Then please, tell me what "drastic changes" our stock list could make. The deck is very tight, and you yourself have just illustrated that in your argument against Spell Snare
@Cody - it's not that Spell snare doesn't have targets against Coco decks, just that it felt subpar. I swapped out 2 Negate 1 Knot for 3 Snare, and it left me feeling sorely unprepared for Coco/Chord, which were much more likely to end the game than a main phase Vizier or Rallier or what have you.
@Blackdog - nice write up, glad to see someone taking the deck to events! Sorry to hear the Jeskai matchup hasn't been kind to you
I don't think you argue in good faith, but nonetheless.
Dropping at least 2-3 lands, playing more selection/cantrips, moving away from the X-spells (playing 1 Sphinx, no StW/WSZ), playing more spot removal and less 4 mana ***'s, replacing TT with Glimmer or Scour the Lab, playing 4 Snaps, etc. In other words, becoming more mana efficient to match the format. The traditional Esper lists have so many clunky opening hands and the deck mulligans poorly due to its 26 land count. If you want drastic how about this list I'm thinking I'll sleeve up when Opt comes out:
There are some optimizations that I need to make with more testing. That's 25 land sources per Frank Karsten. The mana has been very good, so no complaints there for the most part. I think I want to cut the 2 Thought Scours though since in testing I haven't really needed its mill effect for Scour Lab. or LK. Those 2 slots could be something like 1 TT and the 4th Cryptic, or 2 Serum Visions, or a Serum Vision + the 4th Cryptic, or whatever. Lili could stay or go, but she's good in the go-wide MU's and grindy MU's where the spot removal may not be entirely adequate. She could probably just be a Damnation if needed. The deck is UB based so making the mana work for Supreme Verdict really isn't in the cards.
Of course, I'm the only schmoe playing a decklist like this (Architects/Scour Lab), so it's anyone's guess how well it'd perform outside of localized meta (my only source of testing - where it's performed extremely well). That drastic enough?
My main concern with "thinning down" the deck is that you practically MUST cycle/cantrip to find your next land drop -- in the 25/26 land versions, you can safely assume you'll hit most of those lands, and go looking for them if you don't. Yes, you can flood out, but that's normal for any deck. That said, I'm certainly going to be playing a 25 lands/4 Opt list once Ixalan drops in order to do basically what Serum did previously but at instant speed, and that should be enough to fix the whole flooding issue without affecting the curve too drastically.
Another giant hole you get yourself into with Scour builds are that they are totally crippled by graveyard hate. In my playtesting, even a simple Relic of Progenitus can be unintentionally backbreaking (especially considering people tend to crack them to cantrip into action). Nobody wants to Scour for 6 mana -- and tho you only play 2 Scours, it really is the best card in the deck when you cast it. But then, if you play Glimmer over TT, you don't get the advantage of splitting the mana over a set of turn cycles -- which is why I feel that Glimmer is suboptiomal compared to TT. This is why I've never jumped ship from Esper's typical draw suite.
Anyways, the problem with spell snare is how polarizing it is as a card - it's either extremely good and you want more, or it's not a card at all and you're just hoping the opponent plays anything into it.
Definitely agree. The card is amazing (guaranteed to trade up the curve, costs a single mana to answer many scary things, etc) when its amazing, and terrible when its anything less than amazing.
However, I do think we can use space on a card like this, especially if you feel that the payoff is happening often enough. I play leyline main too, which is kind of a similar deal. Its insane in some matchups and near-useless to useless in others. As I see it, I want my 75 to be able to adequately handle any deck I come across. Sometimes, I'll have a bunch of garbage game 1 that I have to board out and win the next two, or lucksack into not drawing, but if the next two games are winnable, or I'm a leprechaun, then thats an acceptable strategy in my mind. UW control plays spreading seas main, tron plays relic main, etc. And while the floor on these cards is a lot lower given that they cantrip, the ceiling on leyline is definitely higher, and snare is more likely to be relevant than any of those.
Again, I feel that being really low on snare for a while is reasonable. The only reason I've never dropped it is because of local meta reasons (since I don't play at big tournaments, 60% of expected decks for me may well be true, though I never did the math). That being said, I think spell snare's starting to come back into favor, and its distinctly possible that will continue, though of course, no guarantee.
As for brutality, I've been pretty low on it in esper. Its obviously good against burn, as well as several other decks, sure, and while there is some synergy in esper (pitching TT, extra lands, etc) I feel that there aren't any other matchups in which I want to bring it in, mainly because of how I end up splitting up my sideboard overlap. That being said, its impressed me in most of the other decks I've played it in, and I'm sure its not objectively wrong to play it here.
I will point out that I often don't counter cocos/chords. I don't bring negates in for the matchup, and I don't often play dispel (and I'll only play 1 at the most anyways). In fact, most experienced coco players will cut some/all of the chords in this matchup, though you are not guaranteed to get a coco player experienced in the esper draw-go matchup. Otherwise, they rarely have the board presence to win off of a chord (if they do, you're probably losing whether the chord resolves or not). Coco is decent, sure, but some of it is just how you choose to spend your answers, and IMO, with a lot of 1mana answers to vizier/voice/scooze/etc, it makes it easier to hold counters for coco, plus of course, the ability for verdict to just sweep everything up.
Blackdog, do you feel the loss of the 4th path? I don't feel like I could be nearly as confident with less than the full set of paths for decks like eldrazi, shadow, or valakut.
I will point out that playing fewer 4mana wraths doesn't strike me as more efficient. One of our major "selling points" is that we can just be a turn-4 wrath deck in so many matchups, especially ones where that can be very important (elves, affinity, coco, etc). While the list your posted is interesting, you do run the risk of being a worse grixis control deck, or whatever other similar deck. I know you don't seem to view that as valid criticism, but I do think there is truth to it.
For the list you posted, lack of damnation really does stick out to me. I feel like you want some way to catch up on board, be it a wrath, more planeswalkers, lingering souls + tasigur, or something else entirely.
Otherwise, how do you (and everyone else) feel about liliana the last hope? I've seen her pop up in some control lists here and there (I understand she's played in midrange to some degree, but thats a different deck style, getting difference usage out of her)
She has intrigued me recently, not in esper in particular, but any thoughts on her in decks playing counterspells would be welcome.
I don't own any (was waiting for rotation + figuring if I would even play her at all) so I haven't actually played her outside of shadow/GBX myself.
Also, I'm prolly gonna end up back on Esper pretty soon because of Opt and because the Storm matchup is pretty dismal for UW, while UW has a little less strength in Eldrazi Tron and BGx/Shadow type matchups as well. The only thing making me hesitant to come back to Esper full-time is stupid frikken Burn. But my LGS at college seems to have less Burn than you'd expect, so we'll see.
Then please, tell me what "drastic changes" our stock list could make. The deck is very tight, and you yourself have just illustrated that in your argument against Spell Snare
@Cody - it's not that Spell snare doesn't have targets against Coco decks, just that it felt subpar. I swapped out 2 Negate 1 Knot for 3 Snare, and it left me feeling sorely unprepared for Coco/Chord, which were much more likely to end the game than a main phase Vizier or Rallier or what have you.
@Blackdog - nice write up, glad to see someone taking the deck to events! Sorry to hear the Jeskai matchup hasn't been kind to you
I don't think you argue in good faith, but nonetheless.
Dropping at least 2-3 lands, playing more selection/cantrips, moving away from the X-spells (playing 1 Sphinx, no StW/WSZ), playing more spot removal and less 4 mana ***'s, replacing TT with Glimmer or Scour the Lab, playing 4 Snaps, etc. In other words, becoming more mana efficient to match the format. The traditional Esper lists have so many clunky opening hands and the deck mulligans poorly due to its 26 land count. If you want drastic how about this list I'm thinking I'll sleeve up when Opt comes out:
There are some optimizations that I need to make with more testing. That's 25 land sources per Frank Karsten. The mana has been very good, so no complaints there for the most part. I think I want to cut the 2 Thought Scours though since in testing I haven't really needed its mill effect for Scour Lab. or LK. Those 2 slots could be something like 1 TT and the 4th Cryptic, or 2 Serum Visions, or a Serum Vision + the 4th Cryptic, or whatever. Lili could stay or go, but she's good in the go-wide MU's and grindy MU's where the spot removal may not be entirely adequate. She could probably just be a Damnation if needed. The deck is UB based so making the mana work for Supreme Verdict really isn't in the cards.
Of course, I'm the only schmoe playing a decklist like this (Architects/Scour Lab), so it's anyone's guess how well it'd perform outside of localized meta (my only source of testing - where it's performed extremely well). That drastic enough?
My main concern with "thinning down" the deck is that you practically MUST cycle/cantrip to find your next land drop -- in the 25/26 land versions, you can safely assume you'll hit most of those lands, and go looking for them if you don't. Yes, you can flood out, but that's normal for any deck. That said, I'm certainly going to be playing a 25 lands/4 Opt list once Ixalan drops in order to do basically what Serum did previously but at instant speed, and that should be enough to fix the whole flooding issue without affecting the curve too drastically.
Another giant hole you get yourself into with Scour builds are that they are totally crippled by graveyard hate. In my playtesting, even a simple Relic of Progenitus can be unintentionally backbreaking (especially considering people tend to crack them to cantrip into action). Nobody wants to Scour for 6 mana -- and tho you only play 2 Scours, it really is the best card in the deck when you cast it. But then, if you play Glimmer over TT, you don't get the advantage of splitting the mana over a set of turn cycles -- which is why I feel that Glimmer is suboptiomal compared to TT. This is why I've never jumped ship from Esper's typical draw suite.
The math for the mana-base + selection/trips works pretty well.
For 22 lands you're expected on the play to make your first 3 land drops 84.7% of the time. You only have a 7.3% chance to mana flood; but realistically, it's a little higher because of the cantrips. For the traditional deck with 26 lands - it's 91.8% and 18.7% to flood, but it's going to be higher for 25 land 4 opt builds. I used 3 mana because that's the tipping point for the deck - you can cast all of your CA spells (for the most part) which makes hitting 4-5-6 easier. You need enough lands where you can reliably hit your first few land drops without the cantrips, but the selection/trips let you keep hitting 4-5-6 and mitigate flooding. I've found 22 to be the sweet spot anecdotally and math-wise. Frank's math is .25 for a cantrip, and .40-45 for selection. A playset of Opt's is generally worth nearly 2 lands. Playing more lands and more cantrips/selection is generally only going to increase the amount you flood and provide few benefits. That's why you're playing so many lands in the first place - to naturally draw them, but that has a larger downside imho than playing fewer lands and playing more selection. It's a deck building cost - if you're going the more "turbo xerox" route, you need to lower your curve. It won't work in decks playing 8-10+ 4 CMC spells and 1-3 X-spells.
Finding 1 mana when most of my interaction is 1-2 mana in the first 3 turns isn't too difficult. If you're going to play 4 Opts, I'd recommend playing 24 lands, not 25. As for Scour being susceptible to GY hate. I can't dispute that. However, even at 6 mana it's the same rate as 6 mana Sphinx's (sans the life) and how often do you cast Sphinx's for 2-3. Granted, it isn't flexible, but in G1 almost no one plays GY hate. In G2/3 I have more ways to turn on delirium with artifacts/sorceries. Relic is a beating though, but again I've won plenty of games just casting it for 6 mana. (Which is to say, both Sphinx's and Scour each have their own pros and cons; you can't really dismiss Scour because it has cons as well - I still find Modern extremely fast, and for me the upside of Scour is greater than Sphinx's)
As for TT...it can allow you to spend mana efficiently (in the sense that you're always able to spend your mana), but it's also over-costed mana wise for what it does. I could see playing 1, but I've always found 4 TT lists with a bunch of X-spells and 4+mana plays quite clunky. Glimmer is just more efficient card:mana wise and is better with Snapcaster. I also am playing 8 1 mana removals which make Glimmer better. I think the card is a bit underrated (but still mostly weak, but necessary) compared to TT (which is overrated).
In the end I could see myself playing 1 TT and a Damnation or something instead of the Thought Scours. Opt does a tremendous job of boosting the power level of the deck over the old list I was playing.
Depends on a lot on the lists. Some of them are more all-in on the prison/artifact lock pieces with little to no kill spells, discard spells, counterspells etc (I think this is the popular build) but some other lists (Think kind of like the thopter-gifts lists that sprung up a bit right after the unbanning) that are a bit more like classic control are difficult.
I think for esper, a turn 2 search will almost never be good. I suspect if we play it at all, we will try to drop it when we know it will flip the next turn, since we don't really gain much from it slowly filling up our graveyard with things.
Spell snare isn't terrible. The guy who just won the scg tournament with jeskai said he added spell snares back in, and was really happy with them.
Its not the same deck, obviously, but the card still has its place. Its possible you'll want to cut them, possible you won't.
I would definitely add the leylines main if you expect all of that 8rack/burn though.
Firewalker and stony are kind of two different cards, but IMO, firewalker is not terribly impressive in this deck.
While I do agree that colonnade is better, I don't think a 3/1 split is wrong if you can justify it.
As you mentioned about ghost quarter vs tect edge (and soon to be vs field of ruin) I originally ran ghost quarter because of decks like affinity, merfolk, infect, etc, that had early manlands you sometimes absolutely had to kill. With infect gone (the primary culprit), I've thought about going to tectonic edges, but I haven't actually done so. Maybe its time? I haven't played much with field of ruin yet (mostly focusing on opt / search in modern rn), but that may also be better. Anyways, I feel like we could probably stand to look at our land destruction slot again now.
I'm not fixated on Tasigur at all. I actually don't like the card much. Again, my point is speaking to comments being made that are nonconstructive and dismissive unlike the one you just made, which addresses the issues with a card or strategy and why it doesn't work - that's the point of a forum, to have constructive conversation to move toward a goal, which I thought was making the deck more competitive. Though , it turns out I may have been wrong in my initial assessment; After rereading everyone's thoughts on viability and competitiveness I believe that the issue I've been bumping heads with is that the majority of the people who want the stock list to stay the way it always has are actually more concerned with playstyle (ie "I dislike sorceries, regardless of their objective strength") and enjoyment of the archetype (ie "it is fun and rewarding to battle uphill as a challenge") rather than competitiveness(ability to win tournaments) and that is perfectly fine. I think that would explain the differences in opinions as well as the differences in definitional discrepancies.
Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. I wasn't too sure about the Spell Snares myself--if I was taking the deck to a big event I might keep them in, but for my local meta I could see why they might not be too useful. I'm probably going to pick them up still, but will most likely replace them in my new initial list.
As for spot removal, I may start by removing the Fatal Pushes and just keeping the Blessed Alliances.
Personally I've always liked Kor Firewalker. In my experience it makes it MUCH harder for burn to win, but with the two Leylines being moved to the mainboard I could see why it would be overkill. I might replace that slot with more graveyard hate.
My reasoning for the 3/1 split is primarily to use the Tar Pit as a planeswalker killer. With 4 8-Rack decks all running Lilly, along with a decent number of other decks running PWs (Jaces, Lillys, Saheeli, etc) I feel like I'm going to need something to deal with them. Still, I can definitely see why the fourth Colonnade would also be good. I'll probably try the split first and go from there.
Chances are pretty good I'll need the early effect of Ghost Quarter rather than Tec Edge, unfortunately. Just found out we now have 2 Eldrazi Tron players, along with a number of potential GX Tron players as well.
UBRGDredge
Under Construction
WUBAd Nauseam
Neither GQ nor Field are worth much against Valakut, if they beat us it's generally in one fell swoop as opposed to the land drop every turn that people seem to think it is.
Regarding Spell snare: I tried 3 MB a month or two ago, the coolest thing it's done for me is hit a Chalice for X=1 to keep me in the game against Eldrazi Tron.
Other than that, it was subpar against DS decks (only hits snap and terminate), didn't do a lot against Elves or coco, was abysmal against knightfall, et al.
It was alright against Burn, pretty great against BGx Midrange, and felt good against fish but I only cast 1.
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
Wait... thats not esper draw go anymore is it? But it sure is competitive!
If you make the deck better by radically changing it odds are your just making a different deck. Playing serum visions, lingering souls, and tasigurs is a pretty short walk to esper midrange instead of draw-go control.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
@BadMcFadden - that's exactly the sentiment I have shared as well. To make Esper Draw Go competitive, we don't shift out of draw go - we tune the details. Very nice example sir
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
I will agree that timely never did it for me in esper. In other decks, its been a lot better, but I feel we have better options.
You don't usually want to use GQ early against tron lands. Against eldrazi tron, you need to save land destruction for cavern and wreckage, and against green based tron, you are far better off waiting until you get to cryptic command/snapcaster mana before losing your own lands. The possible exception being if you have an extraction + gq and feel its a reasonable play to make (which it often is, though it depends on the circumstances).
As for against titanshift, it depends a lot. I've lost games to land drop after land drop, I've lost games to one/two major threats. The second is more common for a lot of us if we play leyline/halo/extractions (because the first becomes nearly impossible).
I do think gq is good against valakut, and I feel field of ruin will be too, though perhaps not as good as tec edge.
The big thing, though, is the activation cost. I can hold up cryptic command and use gq on t5, tec edge not til t6, and field of ruin not til t7 (sometimes t6, depending on sequencing), which makes a big difference sometimes.
How spell snare did little for you against coco is beyond me. It hits nearly every creature in their deck that we care about. It misses e wit, it misses coco/chord, but otherwise, almost everything that matters in the matchup (combo pieces, spellskite/selfless spirit, recruiter, voice, scooze, sculler, etc)
Its also good vs affinity, hatebears, other control decks, storm, etc.
As for burn hate. If you want a card that it's extremely good against burn, and acceptable in a host of other MU's (spell-based combo, potentially other control decks, CoCo decks, etc.), just play Collective Brutality. I've never been unhappy to have 2 of this card in my SB. Blessed Alliance is not a bad alternative or in addition to as well. I do play 1 Timely because in my meta there are a lot of aggro and burn decks so it's been good for me, but in larger meta's I'd probably play something else in that slot.
My first IQ I went 3-3
1. Jeskai
1-2
Lost game 1 to too much removal, game 3 went to turns.
2. Burn
1-2
Won game 1, lost game 2 before cryptic could get online. Game 3 went longer but ran low on land drops because I sided some out after g2, wasn't able to dig fast enough for answers.
3. Abzan
2-0
Bgx is always easy imo.
4. Esper taxes
2-0
Weird brew but pulled through going to turns.
5. Bant knightfall
2-0
Both games played out great. Opponent got a little annoyed at my cryptic chains.
6. Some kind of bant lands deck
1-2
I started running out of steam this game. I killed to 5 because I hadn't finished sideboarding out from the last match because we went so long. Won game 1 anyways. Game 2 I wasn't sure what to expect still. Game 3 opponent psyched me out on spell quellers and I started playing too scared, it lost me the game.
My second IQ I went 3-2-1
1. Eldrazi Tron
0-2
I started this day pretty poorly, game 1 was full of misplays like attempting to logic knot a matter reshaped for 1 with tron up and choosing the wrong mode for esper charm. Game 2 went alot better, but wasn't able to find a path or d sphere for ulamog.
2. Eldrazi Tron
1-1
Game 1 went pretty long eventually scooping to make time for another game. Game 2 went to turns, with me revving for 12 on turn 5 against an empty board grabbing a win from my opp.
3. Breachshift valakut
2-0
I was actually really nervous about this match up coming in pretty much I let a sakura tribe elder resolve both games and countered everything else. Leaving the opp a bit salty.
4. Baby emeria titan
2-0
I've played against uw builds before, it's pretty straight forward, keep emeria off the field if possible kill everything else.
5. 4c kiki chord
2-1
Slower decks like these are pretty good match ups. Kill the elves keep the combo off the table.
6. Burn
1-2
Game 1 I was able to slow him down to a crawl, winning off an eot secure the wastes turn 4. Game 2 he had a brutal hand. Game 3 I lost due to impatience, I cast an eot sphinx's rev for 3, thinking he drew a land and I needed more gas, he casts a sharding volley in response for the win.
I look forward to working with this list more as i feel it plays out very well. With the new addition of opt to our arsenal I think there's alot of potential in esper for the future.
3x Celestial Colonnade
2x Drowned Catacomb
4x Flooded Strand
2x Glacial Fortress
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Mystic Gate
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Enchantment (1)
1x Detention Sphere
4x Cryptic Command
4x Esper Charm
2x Fatal Push
3x Logic Knot
3x Path to Exile
2x Secure the Wastes
1x Spell Snare
2x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Think Twice
Sorcery (3)
3x Serum Visions
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Wrath of God
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Collective Brutality
2x Dispel
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2x Lingering Souls
1x Negate
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Runed Halo
1x Stony Silence
2x Thoughtseize
@Cody - it's not that Spell snare doesn't have targets against Coco decks, just that it felt subpar. I swapped out 2 Negate 1 Knot for 3 Snare, and it left me feeling sorely unprepared for Coco/Chord, which were much more likely to end the game than a main phase Vizier or Rallier or what have you.
@Blackdog - nice write up, glad to see someone taking the deck to events! Sorry to hear the Jeskai matchup hasn't been kind to you
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
I don't think you argue in good faith, but nonetheless.
Dropping at least 2-3 lands, playing more selection/cantrips, moving away from the X-spells (playing 1 Sphinx, no StW/WSZ), playing more spot removal and less 4 mana ***'s, replacing TT with Glimmer or Scour the Lab, playing 4 Snaps, etc. In other words, becoming more mana efficient to match the format. The traditional Esper lists have so many clunky opening hands and the deck mulligans poorly due to its 26 land count. If you want drastic how about this list I'm thinking I'll sleeve up when Opt comes out:
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
Cards that Draw Cards: 20
4 Opt
2 Thought Scour
4 Architects of Will
4 Esper Charm
2 Scour the Laboratory
1 Glimmer of Genius
3 Cryptic Command
4 Path to Exile
4 Fatal Push
1 Go for the Throat
Counters: 7
3 Logic Knot
1 Negate
Planeswalker: 1
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Creature: 4
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Damnation
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Stony Silence
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dispel
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Disdainful Stroke
There are some optimizations that I need to make with more testing. That's 25 land sources per Frank Karsten. The mana has been very good, so no complaints there for the most part. I think I want to cut the 2 Thought Scours though since in testing I haven't really needed its mill effect for Scour Lab. or LK. Those 2 slots could be something like 1 TT and the 4th Cryptic, or 2 Serum Visions, or a Serum Vision + the 4th Cryptic, or whatever. Lili could stay or go, but she's good in the go-wide MU's and grindy MU's where the spot removal may not be entirely adequate. She could probably just be a Damnation if needed. The deck is UB based so making the mana work for Supreme Verdict really isn't in the cards.
Of course, I'm the only schmoe playing a decklist like this (Architects/Scour Lab), so it's anyone's guess how well it'd perform outside of localized meta (my only source of testing - where it's performed extremely well). That drastic enough?
My main concern with "thinning down" the deck is that you practically MUST cycle/cantrip to find your next land drop -- in the 25/26 land versions, you can safely assume you'll hit most of those lands, and go looking for them if you don't. Yes, you can flood out, but that's normal for any deck. That said, I'm certainly going to be playing a 25 lands/4 Opt list once Ixalan drops in order to do basically what Serum did previously but at instant speed, and that should be enough to fix the whole flooding issue without affecting the curve too drastically.
Another giant hole you get yourself into with Scour builds are that they are totally crippled by graveyard hate. In my playtesting, even a simple Relic of Progenitus can be unintentionally backbreaking (especially considering people tend to crack them to cantrip into action). Nobody wants to Scour for 6 mana -- and tho you only play 2 Scours, it really is the best card in the deck when you cast it. But then, if you play Glimmer over TT, you don't get the advantage of splitting the mana over a set of turn cycles -- which is why I feel that Glimmer is suboptiomal compared to TT. This is why I've never jumped ship from Esper's typical draw suite.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Definitely agree. The card is amazing (guaranteed to trade up the curve, costs a single mana to answer many scary things, etc) when its amazing, and terrible when its anything less than amazing.
However, I do think we can use space on a card like this, especially if you feel that the payoff is happening often enough. I play leyline main too, which is kind of a similar deal. Its insane in some matchups and near-useless to useless in others. As I see it, I want my 75 to be able to adequately handle any deck I come across. Sometimes, I'll have a bunch of garbage game 1 that I have to board out and win the next two, or lucksack into not drawing, but if the next two games are winnable, or I'm a leprechaun, then thats an acceptable strategy in my mind. UW control plays spreading seas main, tron plays relic main, etc. And while the floor on these cards is a lot lower given that they cantrip, the ceiling on leyline is definitely higher, and snare is more likely to be relevant than any of those.
Again, I feel that being really low on snare for a while is reasonable. The only reason I've never dropped it is because of local meta reasons (since I don't play at big tournaments, 60% of expected decks for me may well be true, though I never did the math). That being said, I think spell snare's starting to come back into favor, and its distinctly possible that will continue, though of course, no guarantee.
As for brutality, I've been pretty low on it in esper. Its obviously good against burn, as well as several other decks, sure, and while there is some synergy in esper (pitching TT, extra lands, etc) I feel that there aren't any other matchups in which I want to bring it in, mainly because of how I end up splitting up my sideboard overlap. That being said, its impressed me in most of the other decks I've played it in, and I'm sure its not objectively wrong to play it here.
I will point out that I often don't counter cocos/chords. I don't bring negates in for the matchup, and I don't often play dispel (and I'll only play 1 at the most anyways). In fact, most experienced coco players will cut some/all of the chords in this matchup, though you are not guaranteed to get a coco player experienced in the esper draw-go matchup. Otherwise, they rarely have the board presence to win off of a chord (if they do, you're probably losing whether the chord resolves or not). Coco is decent, sure, but some of it is just how you choose to spend your answers, and IMO, with a lot of 1mana answers to vizier/voice/scooze/etc, it makes it easier to hold counters for coco, plus of course, the ability for verdict to just sweep everything up.
Blackdog, do you feel the loss of the 4th path? I don't feel like I could be nearly as confident with less than the full set of paths for decks like eldrazi, shadow, or valakut.
I will point out that playing fewer 4mana wraths doesn't strike me as more efficient. One of our major "selling points" is that we can just be a turn-4 wrath deck in so many matchups, especially ones where that can be very important (elves, affinity, coco, etc). While the list your posted is interesting, you do run the risk of being a worse grixis control deck, or whatever other similar deck. I know you don't seem to view that as valid criticism, but I do think there is truth to it.
For the list you posted, lack of damnation really does stick out to me. I feel like you want some way to catch up on board, be it a wrath, more planeswalkers, lingering souls + tasigur, or something else entirely.
Otherwise, how do you (and everyone else) feel about liliana the last hope? I've seen her pop up in some control lists here and there (I understand she's played in midrange to some degree, but thats a different deck style, getting difference usage out of her)
She has intrigued me recently, not in esper in particular, but any thoughts on her in decks playing counterspells would be welcome.
I don't own any (was waiting for rotation + figuring if I would even play her at all) so I haven't actually played her outside of shadow/GBX myself.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
The math for the mana-base + selection/trips works pretty well.
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/how-many-lands-do-you-need-to-consistently-hit-your-land-drops/
For 22 lands you're expected on the play to make your first 3 land drops 84.7% of the time. You only have a 7.3% chance to mana flood; but realistically, it's a little higher because of the cantrips. For the traditional deck with 26 lands - it's 91.8% and 18.7% to flood, but it's going to be higher for 25 land 4 opt builds. I used 3 mana because that's the tipping point for the deck - you can cast all of your CA spells (for the most part) which makes hitting 4-5-6 easier. You need enough lands where you can reliably hit your first few land drops without the cantrips, but the selection/trips let you keep hitting 4-5-6 and mitigate flooding. I've found 22 to be the sweet spot anecdotally and math-wise. Frank's math is .25 for a cantrip, and .40-45 for selection. A playset of Opt's is generally worth nearly 2 lands. Playing more lands and more cantrips/selection is generally only going to increase the amount you flood and provide few benefits. That's why you're playing so many lands in the first place - to naturally draw them, but that has a larger downside imho than playing fewer lands and playing more selection. It's a deck building cost - if you're going the more "turbo xerox" route, you need to lower your curve. It won't work in decks playing 8-10+ 4 CMC spells and 1-3 X-spells.
Finding 1 mana when most of my interaction is 1-2 mana in the first 3 turns isn't too difficult. If you're going to play 4 Opts, I'd recommend playing 24 lands, not 25. As for Scour being susceptible to GY hate. I can't dispute that. However, even at 6 mana it's the same rate as 6 mana Sphinx's (sans the life) and how often do you cast Sphinx's for 2-3. Granted, it isn't flexible, but in G1 almost no one plays GY hate. In G2/3 I have more ways to turn on delirium with artifacts/sorceries. Relic is a beating though, but again I've won plenty of games just casting it for 6 mana. (Which is to say, both Sphinx's and Scour each have their own pros and cons; you can't really dismiss Scour because it has cons as well - I still find Modern extremely fast, and for me the upside of Scour is greater than Sphinx's)
As for TT...it can allow you to spend mana efficiently (in the sense that you're always able to spend your mana), but it's also over-costed mana wise for what it does. I could see playing 1, but I've always found 4 TT lists with a bunch of X-spells and 4+mana plays quite clunky. Glimmer is just more efficient card:mana wise and is better with Snapcaster. I also am playing 8 1 mana removals which make Glimmer better. I think the card is a bit underrated (but still mostly weak, but necessary) compared to TT (which is overrated).
In the end I could see myself playing 1 TT and a Damnation or something instead of the Thought Scours. Opt does a tremendous job of boosting the power level of the deck over the old list I was playing.