I think that Azcanta is a really mediocre card.
I see the good points, it can make your draws better, and becomes card advantage in the long long game, but:
It doesn't really filter your deck, just, sometimes, allow you to mill a really really bad card in a presideboard game, (negate vs merfolk or push vs AD NAUSEAM), you can mill a mediocre card and get one even worse.
It makes the deck worse againt graveyard hate, and one thing I love from this deck is that graveyard hate doesn't really affect it.
I guess the point, is good in long games, but control decks (mostly of them) will have some kind of land hate, RIP Azcanta.
It makes abrupt decay good against us, same argument that I said of graveyard hate, (or detention sphere, but esper charm is a thing).
It's himself card disadvantage, and a "dead card" in the early games.
It's not card disadvantage. Either opponent kills it making it a 1 for 1 or it stays on the battlefield and produces card selection and eventually card advantage and mana and a virtual win condition (all things this deck wants). The ability to mill over the top card of your deck every turn is nothing to scoff at and is a very skill intensive decision process every turn. Almost half the time you will need to decide if you want a land or not, which is one of the easier scenarios, the other easy scenario is dead cards. In the those easy scenario, the ability is virtual card advantage because usually those cards would do nothing and you can have something else instead. Harder scenarios as you said might be deciding between a mediocre card or a random draw, but even then it is obviously superior to have some choice than none.
The argument that it gets hit by land destruction is fairly moot - you don't have to flip it, for starters, and the flip side is far superior to any other utility land in the format, let alone in our deck. If they hit it with a LD spell, so be it, one less aimed at our colonnades and we probably got massive value off of it before it got hit. Likely netting a card and sometimes a number of upkeep mill triggers.
The only arguments that are really valid as a con, imo, are that it gets hit by Dsphere and Abrupt Decay since it needs a full turn cycle to trigger the flip condition. In a lot of cases where we are worried the opponent has removal, we can wait until there are 6 or more cards in the graveyard before deploying and then we only have to commit to protecting it for a single turn. Obviously this doesn't work well against abrupt decay unless we are willing to spend a cryptic bounce-draw to redeploy next turn; but the point is, there is very few decks that run removal that can hit this and even against the decks that can hit it, its a small commitment to protect a game winning card that only costs 2 Mana.
**Edit to address @Cody_X .... Pretty much never? That sounds like a statement someone who has played very few games with Snapcaster would make. I couldn't count how many times it's been necessary to actually ambush viper mode Snapcaster mage, or to start a clock against plodding decks when strapped on Mana and Snapcaster flooded.... let alone times where I contemplated it but decided not.
Yeah I can say for me I have played snapcaster for no value more often than I'd like. Usually to stop a merfolk, elf, or gob guide but sometimes just because I need some pressure to progress the game and can't wait around until t5 to esper charm (e.g. tron, or if opponent resolves a liliana and I need to pressure it). It's not the usual play by any means, but it definitely comes up - not to mention situations where you consider it but decide to be patient instead. I expect opt to improve those situations a bit to a lot (more likely is by opting turn 1/2 I find a push/path and am able to use that to alleviate presure and then reserve my snap for a second round of removal rather than snap-opt - but still the option to snap-opt if I come up blank on the push/path is solid).
The flip enchantment deserves testing for sure. I think you need to compare it to think twice - The 1U doesnt draw us a card and its sorcery speed, but it does give us some early card selection if we're searching for specific things - once it flips we've got 2U impulse every turn we want it, which is insanely better than a couple 2U draw a card flashbacks. It's also a little ramp bump in the mana that could get us into snap-cryptic or bigger revelation/secure faster which is nothin to scoff at.
I think the logic knot / snapcaster synergy can equally be non-bo so I don't know what to make of that, I'd consider it moot. The real problem is what was mentioned above - the card is more vulnerable to GY hate than think twice (since TT will always cycle) and vulnerable to abrupt decay / dsphere, plus the enchant hate that people will often bring in to block our halo/rip/stony/leyline (even if you dont run it - people will assume you do)
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I tend to use ambush vipers only when I feel the need to apply pressure To try and take out a premium two drop they have attacked with, aka bob or scooze or something but more often then not I hold the snap to get value. Playing three snaps also adds a bIt if insurance in using the first one as a pressure cooker instead of only value.
Major argument is that the front side doesnt really do very much for us.
Yea, if we get it to flip its good, but its front side is not terribly impressive.
I don't know how much I've played with snapcaster mage, or how many I've cast, but I've played blue in modern for my entire time in modern, and I've played many different blue decks. I own 6 snapcaster mages, FFS. I've played a lot with the card.
Dropping it in ambush viper mode is definitely something I've done, but never liked.
I only play 2 snapcaster mages in this deck, partially because of the whole "snapcaster flooded" thing.
You mention dropping snapcasters to pressure mana screwed/flooded opponents, but that is rarely something I feel is worthwhile, especially game 1.
The inability of this deck to punish stumbling opponents is not something I'm happy with, but its better to accept it than trying to flimsily pressure them with a 2/1, unless you'd otherwise have to move to discard.
Basically, I'll trade/chump 0value snapcaster mages rarely, and set up an early clock with 0value snaps almost never. Its such an overrated play in this deck. In jeskai/grixis, you can suppliment that damage with burn, cliques, tasigurs, etc. Even in U/W you have planeswalkers (gideons in particular) to add damage.
In this deck, we functionally have nothing. The snapcaster mage is almost never going to get there, and eventually you'll regret not having a snapcaster mage in hand.
So I guess I misspoke, I've considered it plenty of times, and decided against >95% of those times.
I didn't mean in cases that the opponent is screwed, or flooded.. I meant when we are screwed AND Snapcaster-flooded. As in we have 2-3 lands and multiple Snapcaster with nothing to snap back.
Hey guys. I'll be writing a long-ass post about the state of Control currently. I think that UW is the best meta decision. It has 4 Seas and 4 TecEdge/GQ, and since we have Shadow and E-Tron both as top decks, UW is good because land ****ery is good against them. Unfortunately, since Shift and Storm are both present in Tier One, UW isn't as great of a meta call. If you're playing Control, it's still probably the best, but I wouldn't take it to an Open or a GP. I've been playing it at my LGS for a couple months and been making decent results. Not great, not terrible, but decent. Jeskai Tempo (like what Jonathan Rosum has been regularly top8ing SCG Opens with) is a decent deck, but it's not where I want to be with Control. Yes, it plays 4 Cryptic, but it's too aggressive for my liking. I think it's very viable and very very good at flexing between Control and Aggro, but I wouldn't play it just because it doesn't fit my style. Jeskai Control (like Wafo-Tapa Draw-Go) has been seeing some play in the hands of Jonathan Sukenik and Benjamin Nikolich, and I think it's a decent deck. I've played t before, usually to a pretty mediocre finish due to my unfamiliarity with the deck. I think all of these decks are easier to learn than Esper, and that Esper might be the hardest deck to learn and play to a good finish. Esper is a very good deck though, but it lacks good pilots. The only people on this thread that I think could pilot Esper to a good finish are Amalek0, Cody_X, PimpDonny, and TheAnnihilator, and potentially EsperShardMage. My question for you guys is this: Are you playing Esper over UW because of pilot familiarity? Do you just like the deck more? Or do you think it's better than UW, and regardless of experience I should be playing Esper? I think Esper is viable, but I'm not a good enough pilot. Do you think grinding on an online Magic service is the best way to remedy this? Or is there another way I haven't thought of that would help me more?
TL;DR: What is the best way to improve at the best Control deck, and do you think Esper is still viable/the best?
Thanks a lot, guys! And sorry for the wall of text.
Hey guys. I'll be writing a long-ass post about the state of Control currently. I think that UW is the best meta decision. It has 4 Seas and 4 TecEdge/GQ, and since we have Shadow and E-Tron both as top decks, UW is good because land ****ery is good against them. Unfortunately, since Shift and Storm are both present in Tier One, UW isn't as great of a meta call. If you're playing Control, it's still probably the best, but I wouldn't take it to an Open or a GP. I've been playing it at my LGS for a couple months and been making decent results. Not great, not terrible, but decent. Jeskai Tempo (like what Jonathan Rosum has been regularly top8ing SCG Opens with) is a decent deck, but it's not where I want to be with Control. Yes, it plays 4 Cryptic, but it's too aggressive for my liking. I think it's very viable and very very good at flexing between Control and Aggro, but I wouldn't play it just because it doesn't fit my style. Jeskai Control (like Wafo-Tapa Draw-Go) has been seeing some play in the hands of Jonathan Sukenik and Benjamin Nikolich, and I think it's a decent deck. I've played t before, usually to a pretty mediocre finish due to my unfamiliarity with the deck. I think all of these decks are easier to learn than Esper, and that Esper might be the hardest deck to learn and play to a good finish. Esper is a very good deck though, but it lacks good pilots. The only people on this thread that I think could pilot Esper to a good finish are Amalek0, Cody_X, PimpDonny, and TheAnnihilator, and potentially EsperShardMage. My question for you guys is this: Are you playing Esper over UW because of pilot familiarity? Do you just like the deck more? Or do you think it's better than UW, and regardless of experience I should be playing Esper? I think Esper is viable, but I'm not a good enough pilot. Do you think grinding on an online Magic service is the best way to remedy this? Or is there another way I haven't thought of that would help me more?
TL;DR: What is the best way to improve at the best Control deck, and do you think Esper is still viable/the best?
Thanks a lot, guys! And sorry for the wall of text.
Firstly, thanks for the complement. I've actually always wanted to be "recognized" on this thread, but in reality I'm just some random on the net that happens to have a vendetta against creature decks.
But to answer your question, I think Esper is equally as viable as UW, with the other options either being worse than those 2 builds or not really "true" control decks. Jeskai is a glorified tempo deck at this point, even if it's actually good in this meta (it's not great for me, but I don't play tempo, so duh...). Jeskai Draw-Go is a true control deck, but there's no real reason to play it over Esper -- Push is just as good as Bolt (oftentimes BETTER in a pure control deck), and ECharm makes the combo/control matchups so much better that I honestly think it would be remiss to play Jeskai Draw-Go over Esper. I mean, Lightning Helix is a sexy magic card at least. I do love me some Helixes.
This basically leaves the question of UW vs. Esper, and I think that at my average local-meta-level FNM, UW is better, since Burn and Goblins are very prevalent. UW has an amazing Burn/Golbins matchup with Spell Quellers, Blessed Alliance, and Purges from the board. For those of you with metas flooded with Abzan Co/combo/control decks or those of you that simply see fewer red decks, I definitely think Esper is the better choice, given that you can manage to play 3 games in 50 minutes. I will say that I would never play UW without 3x Spell Quellers in the board, but, other than that, it's my go-to. But I still have every single Esper foil that I ever got a hold of (yes, I will be finding foil Opts too, for Esper testing specifically) and even have the deck built and ready to go if I decide that I want to play Esper spur-of-the-moment. I actually have a full paper copy of the mainboards of both UW and Esper ready for anyone who happens to want to borrow one of them at an FNM, but I'm still missing some sb stuff. I need 2 Runed Halos, another Queller, and some Purges to have both decks in full -- one of the perks of gradually foiling out an already-completed paper list.
A side note: I don't think UW is better against Eldrazi (Tron or the Bant variety) OR Grixis Shadow than Esper is -- if you play at least 2 Ghost Quarters. ETron is more than doable if you can stop the Sea Gate Wreckage and 2-ish Cavern of Souls going late, and Spreading Seas doesn't actually do anything vs. Grixis Shadow since they play Islands. If those 2 decks were my only consideration, I would play Esper in a heartbeat. But I friggen hate Burn.
Anyways, I do think a big key to playing Esper proficiently is to grind online and in real life. I would be much worse at playing Esper if I never used XMage. In fact, it's been so influential that I've often thought about purchasing MTGO just to play Esper in a more competitive setting. And to try to get some Esper lists published. The other things that I never really see mentioned here are 1) to play each matchup from both sides (i.e. play their deck too and be familiar with it and the important interactions/lines) and 2) ask your opponent if they noticed any mistakes from your side (or explain to them after the game what type of difficult situation you faced and see if they have any insight). Sometimes the best way to learn is to have someone challenge your thoughts. Related, I just want to give a shoutout to BloodyRabbit -- I don't always agree with him, and I haven't seen him around lately, but I've always appreciated this guy and noone seems to mention him.
Same as annihilator. Thanks for calling me out.
FWIW, I bombed out at vegas, so how well I'd actually do another major tournament is possibly suspect.
Am I playing esper over UW due to pilot familiarity? Maybe. I've played more esper than UW, but I own the cards for both. I could have spent a majority of the time I've spent playing esper, playing UW instead (esp before the current "established" builds popped up), but I did not.
Do I just like the deck more? As I started in the previous question, yes. I like draw-go. I don't like sorceries. I like esper charm a lot. The original list was pretty much just UW draw-go with esper charms.
I think esper has been underrated at all points during the past many years, by varying amounts depending on the metagame, but thats basically just because no one plays it, or "plays it right". Pretty much all of the articles various content creators have written on esper control in modern are flawed in my opinion. They start, presumably, with some sort of established build or MTGO result, and tweak it a lot to their own specifications, using what they know about other control decks in modern, which are not as similar to this one as they might think. I'm sure if they all spent more time on the lists, they'd end up closer to where some of us are, but they're often moving on to the next flavor of the week by that point.
I think that esper as actually very strong right now, and I do think its better than UW. The biggest thing, in my opinion, is the death's shadow matchup. I understand that its long been toted that UW control utterly smashed shadow. While I do believe UW control does win, it is not nearly as favorable as a lot of people think, especially if the UW player is less skilled than the shadow pilot (at the matchup or otherwise).
Against titanshift, UW obviously has a fighting chance, and in their defense, most UW lists aren't built to beat valakut very well (usually by choice).
However, matchups like storm, tron (of any flavor), valakut, etc, are all better when you have another color's worth of sideboard options.
Technically, dredge is too, but dredge is really the one matchup that really ****s us over. Ponza is pretty miserable tool, but its not nearly to the same level, nor is it on the same tier.
I'm not sure if esper is necessarily the hardest. Its possibly the "lowest power level" if that makes sense, and its very unforgiving, so you do have to fight for your wins, but experience plays a big impact in this.
I do not play mtgo. I play non-mtg online card games, and I try to play modern as much as I can (which has been about 2 fnms a week for the past while).
I've been playing modern for a while, so my knowledge of the format is pretty good, and I've played esper for a great while, and blue decks for literally ever (as far as modern is concerned).
While I have no doubt mtgo will give you a lot of experience (assuming you have the time to fully utilize the "matches on demand" aspect) because you get to play against quality opponents (presumably) often.
The quality of players in my home town is pretty high (some players you may have heard of), which certainly helps somewhat.
Get a lot of format knowledge, by playing, reading/watching, and talking to other players. Play enough with your deck, and talk to other people about your deck. Talk to other people who play your deck (like the people on these forums) and talk to people who do not play your deck (whose opinions you still respect).
Teach people how to play your deck, and ask other people to teach you how they play their deck (or how they would teach you how to play your deck).
I don't think there is really a secret to getting better with control beyond all of that though.
I think esper has what it takes to be a reasonable metagame choice. I don't think the powerlevel of the cards is quite there for it to be at the powerlevel of tier1 decks. (I don't think UW is either, but by representation, it may be t1).
If its the kind of deck you enjoy, I don't think its a particularly handicapping choice.
Edit, for other people:
You mentioned bloodyrabbit, and while I argue with him a lot, I will concede he probably knows what he's talking about.
In addition, stokpile and SES haven't been around much, but strike me as capable players as well.
Hmm, the part about playing from both sides is interesting. Will try that, definitley. I've been using Cockatrice but downloaded XMage after reading this. Trice is full of salty pricks, it's a bit tiresome at times. Thanks so much dude, you don't know how much this means to me. You've been the main drive for me playing Esper since I saw the deck. May you always have large Revs
EDIT: Thanks a lot to you as well, Cody. I think that if I put in the hours I will be rewarded, but they will be a lot of hours
I've played a good deal on cockatrice in the past (still do very occasionally).
Its alright. I've always hated x-mage because it slows down my play so, so much.
For cockatrice, I'd high;y recommend finding people you know IRL, or well online, getting on skype/mumble/ts/discord/VoIP of choice and playing that way. Far more enjoyable, and you know you're not playing with a prick. (Or if you are, you have no one to blame but yourself.)
That all being said, its gonna be a lot of hours either way.
Luckily for you, playing control in any form in modern will do some good for your ability to play other control decks, and for playing magic in general. Not as good as playing the real thing, but any bit helps
I've played a good deal on cockatrice in the past (still do very occasionally).
Its alright. I've always hated x-mage because it slows down my play so, so much.
For cockatrice, I'd high;y recommend finding people you know IRL, or well online, getting on skype/mumble/ts/discord/VoIP of choice and playing that way. Far more enjoyable, and you know you're not playing with a prick. (Or if you are, you have no one to blame but yourself.)
That all being said, its gonna be a lot of hours either way.
Luckily for you, playing control in any form in modern will do some good for your ability to play other control decks, and for playing magic in general. Not as good as playing the real thing, but any bit helps
I also played a ton of cockatrice in the past, and have even found myself playing two sides of local just to see how the dynamics of a match can play out. Talk about getting deep into the game!
anyone else expecting Ixalan to shake up modern a bit?
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kodieyost: anyone else expecting Ixalan to shake up modern a bit?
Not me. Every set that has even slightly playable modern cards gets this treatment. I'd be surprised if anything other than Opt even makes a dent. I mean, I'd prolly be happy, but surprised nonetheless.
Maybe I'm not supposed to be posting spoiler discussion on this forum, but w/e
Ixalan modern playables, after the initial changes shake out:
Will maybe see play in a single deck, or brews:
Tocalti honor guard
search for azcanta
siren stormtamer
oldgrowth dryads
kumena's speaker
Will maybe see play in multiple decks
settle the wreckage
chart a course
entrancing melody
opt
Will definitely see play in a single deck
kopala, warden of waves
shaper's sanctuary
I don't think there is anything here to totally change modern.
Kopala is an obvious upgrade for merfolk, but it just replaces kira, its not a new effect.
Shaper's sanctuary feels like its very good in elves or zoo kind of decks, and while its not something they had access to in the past, it will be a sideboard card, and not a mandatory one.
Settle the wreckage is neat, but the drawbacks are too much for me to be higher on it. It simply doesn't have the powerlevel to be "revolutionary"
Chart a course and opt are both cards that are also "too simple" to cause much of a shakeup. They aren't impactful enough, and while its possible opt in particular will be widespread, it won't drastically change how games are played.
The others I mentioned will turn out to be a little hit or miss. I feel all of them have what it takes to end up across the table from me at least occasionally, but they struggle with either a) having a deck that wants them, or b) having space made for them in the deck(s) that do want them (see torpor_orb.stick in D&T)
anyone else expecting Ixalan to shake up modern a bit?
Not exactly. I think Snapcaster decks get a tiny bit better with Opt, and UW control specifically gets a pair of Search for Azcanta as an upgraded inevitability engine over something like think twice/Sphinx Rev. I think it will also be fine in esper, but not quite as good as in UW. In any case I wouldn't expect a meta-shift or U control decks to jump more than a few percentage points in overall power level.
Sorry I've been absent. I've had a lot of travel for my job recently and been quite busy. I still don't have the time to contribute meaningfully to testing again (yet), but here's my 2c on opt:
This card doesn't revolutionize our deck. What it DOES do is open up a new build option: emulate UWR control. Where they have bolt, we have fatal push. where they have electrolyze, we have esper charm. Where they had serum visions, we now have opt. What do I envision? snapcasters + gearhulks, academy ruins instead of celestial colonnade, remands and possibly even mana leaks to back up a quick clock on the board in a nearly pure flash-game.
Now, the other thing I'm going to actually test first is a midrange build. Rough sketch:
meme-worthy? yes. But, with path/spell snare/mana leak/remand/opt, getting to turn three without the opponent having more than one or two dudes on the table is do-able. Gideon emblem + pacts on turn three is a pretty brutal way to take over a game. I can't imagine losing any game where I cast a gideon on turn three and have both a slaughter pact and a pact of negation. This might be the way of the future for those of you who want a more proactive deck but don't want to play grixis or jeskai because of the weaker late games.
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Sorry I've been absent. I've had a lot of travel for my job recently and been quite busy. I still don't have the time to contribute meaningfully to testing again (yet), but here's my 2c on opt:
This card doesn't revolutionize our deck. What it DOES do is open up a new build option: emulate UWR control. Where they have bolt, we have fatal push. where they have electrolyze, we have esper charm. Where they had serum visions, we now have opt. What do I envision? snapcasters + gearhulks, academy ruins instead of celestial colonnade, remands and possibly even mana leaks to back up a quick clock on the board in a nearly pure flash-game.
Now, the other thing I'm going to actually test first is a midrange build. Rough sketch:
meme-worthy? yes. But, with path/spell snare/mana leak/remand/opt, getting to turn three without the opponent having more than one or two dudes on the table is do-able. Gideon emblem + pacts on turn three is a pretty brutal way to take over a game. I can't imagine losing any game where I cast a gideon on turn three and have both a slaughter pact and a pact of negation. This might be the way of the future for those of you who want a more proactive deck but don't want to play grixis or jeskai because of the weaker late games.
I mean ya this looks quite memeish.
I was wondering what you thought of Opt in Draw Go. Mind posting an example list?
- With only 1 Secure, why not just play a White Sun's Zenith? It's much better staying power as a 1-of.
- What is the Void Shatter for? Why not Dissolve, Disallow? Or better yet, the 3rd Cryptic?
- Are 7x 1-mana removal spells really necessary? Why not just play UWR with Helixes and Bolts if your meta is really that aggressive? Or even just straight UW with mainboard Condemn/Blessed Alliance and Gideons to close it out? Esper isn't really the best in an aggro meta.
- I suggest swapping the Condemns for Blessed Alliances to shore up the Burn matchup a little better (or squeeze it into the sideboard).
- 5 Shocklands is a lot in an aggressive meta, so I would cut a Watery Grave for a 2nd Drowned Catacomb.
- I would NOT play Stony Silence in your sideboard -- with 5 Wraths, 7 spot removal spells, 2 Snares, 2 Ghost Quarters, AND an Explosives from the board, you shouldn't have any trouble with Affinity -- those slots should be more counters to shore up control/combo matchups better. Or even some Spell Quellers to bridge the gap and accompany those Cliques for beatdowns.
- Since you're playing Thoughtseize, I believe Surgical Extraction should be your grave-hate card of choice, since you can strip key pieces as early as your turn 1/their turn 0.
Not sure how much you (amalek0) have had a chance to look at the new spoilers, but thoughts on search for azcanta in modern (in general) ?
Would it see play in this UWR-esque esper deck (with no colonnades)?
Would it see play in some sort of "meme-y" more midrange-y deck?
For the deck you posted, I hope its not good. I don't wanna buy that many invocation pacts
Otherwise, I'd say bringing a bit closer to "regular" lists (with a couple verdicts, or lingering souls, or something) might improve it a bit (lessen the "i lose cuz I drew the wrong half of this pile"). Looks sweet though.
I'm not sure I totally buy the gearhulk + academy ruins, with no colonnades plan. If we had a secure the wastes that could be flashbacked by gearhulk, and was also good (think gideon's phalanx, but good) I might be more onboard, but 4 snaps and ~2 gearhulks feels loose for wincons. WSZ + colonnade provide a lot of inevitability, and doesn't get totally beaten by path to exile.
Otherwise, as far as quick clocks, UWR inherently does that better than us, due to burn. Maybe playing quellers/cliques/resto kind of flash creatures to facilitate the beatdown, like some UWR decks do, would work, but I'm still not sure esper is the better deck for that.
Gideon with pacts has always sounded good but in practice its awkward. Negation is abysmal without the emblem for a control deck. Pact is ok but misses tasigur death shadow angler and misc nuisances like tidehollow sculler and dark confidant. In a control deck it has the same problem - you want to tap low or even tap out on your upkeep?
I could see gideon of the trials and slaughter pact teaming up in a smallpox deck but thats about it. Negation is really a combo card and I dont think a deck like ad nauseum really wants gideons.
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Pretty much never.
Yea, I agree. Best case it seems pretty good, and I think it will see some modern player, but I don't think it can just be jammed in whatever.
It's not card disadvantage. Either opponent kills it making it a 1 for 1 or it stays on the battlefield and produces card selection and eventually card advantage and mana and a virtual win condition (all things this deck wants). The ability to mill over the top card of your deck every turn is nothing to scoff at and is a very skill intensive decision process every turn. Almost half the time you will need to decide if you want a land or not, which is one of the easier scenarios, the other easy scenario is dead cards. In the those easy scenario, the ability is virtual card advantage because usually those cards would do nothing and you can have something else instead. Harder scenarios as you said might be deciding between a mediocre card or a random draw, but even then it is obviously superior to have some choice than none.
The argument that it gets hit by land destruction is fairly moot - you don't have to flip it, for starters, and the flip side is far superior to any other utility land in the format, let alone in our deck. If they hit it with a LD spell, so be it, one less aimed at our colonnades and we probably got massive value off of it before it got hit. Likely netting a card and sometimes a number of upkeep mill triggers.
The only arguments that are really valid as a con, imo, are that it gets hit by Dsphere and Abrupt Decay since it needs a full turn cycle to trigger the flip condition. In a lot of cases where we are worried the opponent has removal, we can wait until there are 6 or more cards in the graveyard before deploying and then we only have to commit to protecting it for a single turn. Obviously this doesn't work well against abrupt decay unless we are willing to spend a cryptic bounce-draw to redeploy next turn; but the point is, there is very few decks that run removal that can hit this and even against the decks that can hit it, its a small commitment to protect a game winning card that only costs 2 Mana.
**Edit to address @Cody_X .... Pretty much never? That sounds like a statement someone who has played very few games with Snapcaster would make. I couldn't count how many times it's been necessary to actually ambush viper mode Snapcaster mage, or to start a clock against plodding decks when strapped on Mana and Snapcaster flooded.... let alone times where I contemplated it but decided not.
The flip enchantment deserves testing for sure. I think you need to compare it to think twice - The 1U doesnt draw us a card and its sorcery speed, but it does give us some early card selection if we're searching for specific things - once it flips we've got 2U impulse every turn we want it, which is insanely better than a couple 2U draw a card flashbacks. It's also a little ramp bump in the mana that could get us into snap-cryptic or bigger revelation/secure faster which is nothin to scoff at.
I think the logic knot / snapcaster synergy can equally be non-bo so I don't know what to make of that, I'd consider it moot. The real problem is what was mentioned above - the card is more vulnerable to GY hate than think twice (since TT will always cycle) and vulnerable to abrupt decay / dsphere, plus the enchant hate that people will often bring in to block our halo/rip/stony/leyline (even if you dont run it - people will assume you do)
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Esper draw go Control!
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Yea, if we get it to flip its good, but its front side is not terribly impressive.
I don't know how much I've played with snapcaster mage, or how many I've cast, but I've played blue in modern for my entire time in modern, and I've played many different blue decks. I own 6 snapcaster mages, FFS. I've played a lot with the card.
Dropping it in ambush viper mode is definitely something I've done, but never liked.
I only play 2 snapcaster mages in this deck, partially because of the whole "snapcaster flooded" thing.
You mention dropping snapcasters to pressure mana screwed/flooded opponents, but that is rarely something I feel is worthwhile, especially game 1.
The inability of this deck to punish stumbling opponents is not something I'm happy with, but its better to accept it than trying to flimsily pressure them with a 2/1, unless you'd otherwise have to move to discard.
Basically, I'll trade/chump 0value snapcaster mages rarely, and set up an early clock with 0value snaps almost never. Its such an overrated play in this deck. In jeskai/grixis, you can suppliment that damage with burn, cliques, tasigurs, etc. Even in U/W you have planeswalkers (gideons in particular) to add damage.
In this deck, we functionally have nothing. The snapcaster mage is almost never going to get there, and eventually you'll regret not having a snapcaster mage in hand.
So I guess I misspoke, I've considered it plenty of times, and decided against >95% of those times.
TL;DR: What is the best way to improve at the best Control deck, and do you think Esper is still viable/the best?
Thanks a lot, guys! And sorry for the wall of text.
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
But to answer your question, I think Esper is equally as viable as UW, with the other options either being worse than those 2 builds or not really "true" control decks. Jeskai is a glorified tempo deck at this point, even if it's actually good in this meta (it's not great for me, but I don't play tempo, so duh...). Jeskai Draw-Go is a true control deck, but there's no real reason to play it over Esper -- Push is just as good as Bolt (oftentimes BETTER in a pure control deck), and ECharm makes the combo/control matchups so much better that I honestly think it would be remiss to play Jeskai Draw-Go over Esper. I mean, Lightning Helix is a sexy magic card at least. I do love me some Helixes.
This basically leaves the question of UW vs. Esper, and I think that at my average local-meta-level FNM, UW is better, since Burn and Goblins are very prevalent. UW has an amazing Burn/Golbins matchup with Spell Quellers, Blessed Alliance, and Purges from the board. For those of you with metas flooded with Abzan Co/combo/control decks or those of you that simply see fewer red decks, I definitely think Esper is the better choice, given that you can manage to play 3 games in 50 minutes. I will say that I would never play UW without 3x Spell Quellers in the board, but, other than that, it's my go-to. But I still have every single Esper foil that I ever got a hold of (yes, I will be finding foil Opts too, for Esper testing specifically) and even have the deck built and ready to go if I decide that I want to play Esper spur-of-the-moment. I actually have a full paper copy of the mainboards of both UW and Esper ready for anyone who happens to want to borrow one of them at an FNM, but I'm still missing some sb stuff. I need 2 Runed Halos, another Queller, and some Purges to have both decks in full -- one of the perks of gradually foiling out an already-completed paper list.
A side note: I don't think UW is better against Eldrazi (Tron or the Bant variety) OR Grixis Shadow than Esper is -- if you play at least 2 Ghost Quarters. ETron is more than doable if you can stop the Sea Gate Wreckage and 2-ish Cavern of Souls going late, and Spreading Seas doesn't actually do anything vs. Grixis Shadow since they play Islands. If those 2 decks were my only consideration, I would play Esper in a heartbeat. But I friggen hate Burn.
Anyways, I do think a big key to playing Esper proficiently is to grind online and in real life. I would be much worse at playing Esper if I never used XMage. In fact, it's been so influential that I've often thought about purchasing MTGO just to play Esper in a more competitive setting. And to try to get some Esper lists published.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
FWIW, I bombed out at vegas, so how well I'd actually do another major tournament is possibly suspect.
Am I playing esper over UW due to pilot familiarity? Maybe. I've played more esper than UW, but I own the cards for both. I could have spent a majority of the time I've spent playing esper, playing UW instead (esp before the current "established" builds popped up), but I did not.
Do I just like the deck more? As I started in the previous question, yes. I like draw-go. I don't like sorceries. I like esper charm a lot. The original list was pretty much just UW draw-go with esper charms.
I think esper has been underrated at all points during the past many years, by varying amounts depending on the metagame, but thats basically just because no one plays it, or "plays it right". Pretty much all of the articles various content creators have written on esper control in modern are flawed in my opinion. They start, presumably, with some sort of established build or MTGO result, and tweak it a lot to their own specifications, using what they know about other control decks in modern, which are not as similar to this one as they might think. I'm sure if they all spent more time on the lists, they'd end up closer to where some of us are, but they're often moving on to the next flavor of the week by that point.
I think that esper as actually very strong right now, and I do think its better than UW. The biggest thing, in my opinion, is the death's shadow matchup. I understand that its long been toted that UW control utterly smashed shadow. While I do believe UW control does win, it is not nearly as favorable as a lot of people think, especially if the UW player is less skilled than the shadow pilot (at the matchup or otherwise).
Against titanshift, UW obviously has a fighting chance, and in their defense, most UW lists aren't built to beat valakut very well (usually by choice).
However, matchups like storm, tron (of any flavor), valakut, etc, are all better when you have another color's worth of sideboard options.
Technically, dredge is too, but dredge is really the one matchup that really ****s us over. Ponza is pretty miserable tool, but its not nearly to the same level, nor is it on the same tier.
I'm not sure if esper is necessarily the hardest. Its possibly the "lowest power level" if that makes sense, and its very unforgiving, so you do have to fight for your wins, but experience plays a big impact in this.
I do not play mtgo. I play non-mtg online card games, and I try to play modern as much as I can (which has been about 2 fnms a week for the past while).
I've been playing modern for a while, so my knowledge of the format is pretty good, and I've played esper for a great while, and blue decks for literally ever (as far as modern is concerned).
While I have no doubt mtgo will give you a lot of experience (assuming you have the time to fully utilize the "matches on demand" aspect) because you get to play against quality opponents (presumably) often.
The quality of players in my home town is pretty high (some players you may have heard of), which certainly helps somewhat.
Get a lot of format knowledge, by playing, reading/watching, and talking to other players. Play enough with your deck, and talk to other people about your deck. Talk to other people who play your deck (like the people on these forums) and talk to people who do not play your deck (whose opinions you still respect).
Teach people how to play your deck, and ask other people to teach you how they play their deck (or how they would teach you how to play your deck).
I don't think there is really a secret to getting better with control beyond all of that though.
I think esper has what it takes to be a reasonable metagame choice. I don't think the powerlevel of the cards is quite there for it to be at the powerlevel of tier1 decks. (I don't think UW is either, but by representation, it may be t1).
If its the kind of deck you enjoy, I don't think its a particularly handicapping choice.
Edit, for other people:
You mentioned bloodyrabbit, and while I argue with him a lot, I will concede he probably knows what he's talking about.
In addition, stokpile and SES haven't been around much, but strike me as capable players as well.
EDIT: Thanks a lot to you as well, Cody. I think that if I put in the hours I will be rewarded, but they will be a lot of hours
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
Its alright. I've always hated x-mage because it slows down my play so, so much.
For cockatrice, I'd high;y recommend finding people you know IRL, or well online, getting on skype/mumble/ts/discord/VoIP of choice and playing that way. Far more enjoyable, and you know you're not playing with a prick. (Or if you are, you have no one to blame but yourself.)
That all being said, its gonna be a lot of hours either way.
Luckily for you, playing control in any form in modern will do some good for your ability to play other control decks, and for playing magic in general. Not as good as playing the real thing, but any bit helps
I also played a ton of cockatrice in the past, and have even found myself playing two sides of local just to see how the dynamics of a match can play out. Talk about getting deep into the game!
anyone else expecting Ixalan to shake up modern a bit?
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Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
Not me. Every set that has even slightly playable modern cards gets this treatment. I'd be surprised if anything other than Opt even makes a dent. I mean, I'd prolly be happy, but surprised nonetheless.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Ixalan modern playables, after the initial changes shake out:
Will maybe see play in a single deck, or brews:
Tocalti honor guard
search for azcanta
siren stormtamer
oldgrowth dryads
kumena's speaker
Will maybe see play in multiple decks
settle the wreckage
chart a course
entrancing melody
opt
Will definitely see play in a single deck
kopala, warden of waves
shaper's sanctuary
I don't think there is anything here to totally change modern.
Kopala is an obvious upgrade for merfolk, but it just replaces kira, its not a new effect.
Shaper's sanctuary feels like its very good in elves or zoo kind of decks, and while its not something they had access to in the past, it will be a sideboard card, and not a mandatory one.
Settle the wreckage is neat, but the drawbacks are too much for me to be higher on it. It simply doesn't have the powerlevel to be "revolutionary"
Chart a course and opt are both cards that are also "too simple" to cause much of a shakeup. They aren't impactful enough, and while its possible opt in particular will be widespread, it won't drastically change how games are played.
The others I mentioned will turn out to be a little hit or miss. I feel all of them have what it takes to end up across the table from me at least occasionally, but they struggle with either a) having a deck that wants them, or b) having space made for them in the deck(s) that do want them (see torpor_orb.stick in D&T)
Not exactly. I think Snapcaster decks get a tiny bit better with Opt, and UW control specifically gets a pair of Search for Azcanta as an upgraded inevitability engine over something like think twice/Sphinx Rev. I think it will also be fine in esper, but not quite as good as in UW. In any case I wouldn't expect a meta-shift or U control decks to jump more than a few percentage points in overall power level.
This card doesn't revolutionize our deck. What it DOES do is open up a new build option: emulate UWR control. Where they have bolt, we have fatal push. where they have electrolyze, we have esper charm. Where they had serum visions, we now have opt. What do I envision? snapcasters + gearhulks, academy ruins instead of celestial colonnade, remands and possibly even mana leaks to back up a quick clock on the board in a nearly pure flash-game.
Now, the other thing I'm going to actually test first is a midrange build. Rough sketch:
2 marsh flats
2 polluted delta
2 hallowed fountain
1 glacial fortress
1 watery grave
1 godless shrine
2 ghost quarter
3 island
3 plains
4 opt
4 path to exile
2 spell snare
2 mana leak
2 remand
4 snapcaster mage
4 pact of negation
4 slaughter pact
4 Gideon of the Trials
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Jace, architect of thought
2 Gideon Jura
meme-worthy? yes. But, with path/spell snare/mana leak/remand/opt, getting to turn three without the opponent having more than one or two dudes on the table is do-able. Gideon emblem + pacts on turn three is a pretty brutal way to take over a game. I can't imagine losing any game where I cast a gideon on turn three and have both a slaughter pact and a pact of negation. This might be the way of the future for those of you who want a more proactive deck but don't want to play grixis or jeskai because of the weaker late games.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I mean ya this looks quite memeish.
I was wondering what you thought of Opt in Draw Go. Mind posting an example list?
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Glacial Fortress
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Removal (12)
2 Condemn
3 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Spell Snare
2 Logic Knot
3 Mana Leak
1 Void Shatter
2 Cryptic Command
Card Advantage (11)
4 Esper Charm
4 Think Twice
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Snapcaster Mage
Wincon (1)
1 Secure the Wastes
1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Wrath of God
- With only 1 Secure, why not just play a White Sun's Zenith? It's much better staying power as a 1-of.
- What is the Void Shatter for? Why not Dissolve, Disallow? Or better yet, the 3rd Cryptic?
- Are 7x 1-mana removal spells really necessary? Why not just play UWR with Helixes and Bolts if your meta is really that aggressive? Or even just straight UW with mainboard Condemn/Blessed Alliance and Gideons to close it out? Esper isn't really the best in an aggro meta.
- I suggest swapping the Condemns for Blessed Alliances to shore up the Burn matchup a little better (or squeeze it into the sideboard).
- 5 Shocklands is a lot in an aggressive meta, so I would cut a Watery Grave for a 2nd Drowned Catacomb.
- I would NOT play Stony Silence in your sideboard -- with 5 Wraths, 7 spot removal spells, 2 Snares, 2 Ghost Quarters, AND an Explosives from the board, you shouldn't have any trouble with Affinity -- those slots should be more counters to shore up control/combo matchups better. Or even some Spell Quellers to bridge the gap and accompany those Cliques for beatdowns.
- Since you're playing Thoughtseize, I believe Surgical Extraction should be your grave-hate card of choice, since you can strip key pieces as early as your turn 1/their turn 0.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Not sure how much you (amalek0) have had a chance to look at the new spoilers, but thoughts on search for azcanta in modern (in general) ?
Would it see play in this UWR-esque esper deck (with no colonnades)?
Would it see play in some sort of "meme-y" more midrange-y deck?
For the deck you posted, I hope its not good. I don't wanna buy that many invocation pacts
Otherwise, I'd say bringing a bit closer to "regular" lists (with a couple verdicts, or lingering souls, or something) might improve it a bit (lessen the "i lose cuz I drew the wrong half of this pile"). Looks sweet though.
I'm not sure I totally buy the gearhulk + academy ruins, with no colonnades plan. If we had a secure the wastes that could be flashbacked by gearhulk, and was also good (think gideon's phalanx, but good) I might be more onboard, but 4 snaps and ~2 gearhulks feels loose for wincons. WSZ + colonnade provide a lot of inevitability, and doesn't get totally beaten by path to exile.
Otherwise, as far as quick clocks, UWR inherently does that better than us, due to burn. Maybe playing quellers/cliques/resto kind of flash creatures to facilitate the beatdown, like some UWR decks do, would work, but I'm still not sure esper is the better deck for that.
I could see gideon of the trials and slaughter pact teaming up in a smallpox deck but thats about it. Negation is really a combo card and I dont think a deck like ad nauseum really wants gideons.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron