Think Twice and Esper Charm are what make the deck its own unique and powerful thing. If you want yo 1 for 1 more often than why not just play uwr. I would say this is the core of the deck
All these cards are powerful things you want to do in the late game or card that help you get there. Everything else is up for debate in my opinion. The rest of the deck should be either more late game power like and extra Cruptic or another wincon or meta cards to help you survive to that late game (spell snares, remand, leak, condrmn) or even techy cards but I think you absolutely need the core to have this deck be good at what it does which is be the second best late game deck in the format (first being tron).
Esper Charm and Think Twice imho help us to find what we need to respond to enemies' threats or (that's the same) Esper Charm remove enemies' threats from their hands. I really don't wanna to miss land drops so serum visions are so good to do this and organize my draws, but most important things i don't wanna to draw into another draw spell after drawing! (OMG to many time draw! LOL)
Maybe i'm wrong but i feel that control decks needs cards like Serum, sure Think Twice is a great card for this deck but with 4 Serum i really do not need more than 2 Think Twice.
I play Esper because Black is better than red in an shell like this where spot removal needs to target almost anythings. UWR is totally unprepared to face abzan grinding matchups. Last but not least i love Esper Charm i think is a totally underrated card.
In actuality black removal is just terrible in modern. 2 mana removal is too exspensive and they all have worse downsides than bolt. In a world of goblin guide, delver, and affinity you want your removal to be as cheap as possible without costing you life. The reason to run black is not for better removal but for better card advantage and sideboard
hand disruption. Bgx can be beaten with just wrath effects paths and as many divinations as you can get. With this philosophy in mind I think serum visions is not good enough for this deck since card advantage>card quality here.
Think Twice and Esper Charm are what make the deck its own unique and powerful thing. If you want yo 1 for 1 more often than why not just play uwr. I would say this is the core of the deck
All these cards are powerful things you want to do in the late game or card that help you get there. Everything else is up for debate in my opinion. The rest of the deck should be either more late game power like and extra Cruptic or another wincon or meta cards to help you survive to that late game (spell snares, remand, leak, condrmn) or even techy cards but I think you absolutely need the core to have this deck be good at what it does which is be the second best late game deck in the format (first being tron).
Esper Charm and Think Twice imho help us to find what we need to respond to enemies' threats or (that's the same) Esper Charm remove enemies' threats from their hands. I really don't wanna to miss land drops so serum visions are so good to do this and organize my draws, but most important things i don't wanna to draw into another draw spell after drawing! (OMG to many time draw! LOL)
Maybe i'm wrong but i feel that control decks needs cards like Serum, sure Think Twice is a great card for this deck but with 4 Serum i really do not need more than 2 Think Twice.
I play Esper because Black is better than red in an shell like this where spot removal needs to target almost anythings. UWR is totally unprepared to face abzan grinding matchups. Last but not least i love Esper Charm i think is a totally underrated card.
In actuality black removal is just terrible in modern. 2 mana removal is too exspensive and they all have worse downsides than bolt. In a world of goblin guide, delver, and affinity you want your removal to be as cheap as possible without costing you life. The reason to run black is not for better removal but for better card advantage and sideboard
hand disruption. Bgx can be beaten with just wrath effects paths and as many divinations as you can get. With this philosophy in mind I think serum visions is not good enough for this deck since card advantage>card quality here.
Also the esper charms and twice are not just to find answers that is a by product but to get ahead which is the secret wincon of this deck to have more cards than the other guy.
4 think twice and 4 esper charm is an absolute not negotiable must.
The entire strong point of the deck is card advantage. So much to the point that the only reason it's acceptable to play things like path / Logic Knot are because a) we have to, and b) we do have snapcaster mage for value.
Serum Visions is not even neutral, it is progressively and actively bad in this sort of setting. At least Anticipate is easier to flashback with snapcaster mage, and even that isn't "great". Think Twice is an absolutely essentially core piece of the deck's engine.
Let's all try saying it together:
Think twice. Is an absolutely essential. Core Piece. Of the deck's engine.
Very good!
Again, Think Twice makes Esper Charm even better than Esper Charm would be on it's own, because you can choose to stack up exponential insane raw card advantage, OR you can take some pressure off of Esper Charm being the only way to generate card advantage.
For example: if Esper Charm is your ONLY cheap source of raw card advantage (because you are playing Serum Visions or Anticipate) , then whenever you draw Esper Charm you absolutely 100% MUST use it to draw two cards. Period. Otherwise you fall behind.
However if you have already cast 1-2 Think twice, then you rip the Esper Charm, you are ahead on cards, and can now decide if you want to draw 2 more, or if MindRotting the opponent is more beneficial. Without Think Twice, you don't even have a choice, you MUST draw 2 cards because you really have no other options to maintain a card advantage.
If you really love Serum Visions and Anticipate, play twin, or at least play something combo-ish like Gifts.
Also I encourage people to start with the Wafo-Tapa list and make changes from there, rather than taking a shot in the dark.
In my opinion, having played the original version VERY extensively the flex slots are as follows:
I think the 4 Spell Snare are absolutely essential to consistently beating Affinity / gbX and having a fair shot against RDW.
Also in the board I've been testing Story Circle and it's fantastic. Really you just want it to be a Counterspell that sits on the board and can be repeatedly activated for W to counter lightning bolt, rift bolt, boros charm, etc.
Also good against Delver because you name red and you can cut off young pyromancer attacks / a few tokens as well, depending on how much W you can get.
4 think twice and 4 esper charm is an absolute not negotiable must.
The entire strong point of the deck is card advantage. So much to the point that the only reason it's acceptable to play things like path / Logic Knot are because a) we have to, and b) we do have snapcaster mage for value.
Serum Visions is not even neutral, it is progressively and actively bad in this sort of setting. At least Anticipate is easier to flashback with snapcaster mage, and even that isn't "great". Think Twice is an absolutely essentially core piece of the deck's engine.
Let's all try saying it together:
Think twice. Is an absolutely essential. Core Piece. Of the deck's engine.
Very good!
Again, Think Twice makes Esper Charm even better than Esper Charm would be on it's own, because you can choose to stack up exponential insane raw card advantage, OR you can take some pressure off of Esper Charm being the only way to generate card advantage.
For example: if Esper Charm is your ONLY cheap source of raw card advantage (because you are playing Serum Visions or Anticipate) , then whenever you draw Esper Charm you absolutely 100% MUST use it to draw two cards. Period. Otherwise you fall behind.
However if you have already cast 1-2 Think twice, then you rip the Esper Charm, you are ahead on cards, and can now decide if you want to draw 2 more, or if MindRotting the opponent is more beneficial. Without Think Twice, you don't even have a choice, you MUST draw 2 cards because you really have no other options to maintain a card advantage.
That definitively brings me to the 4/4 side. Not even considerate most of the things you said.
Btw i'm really sure that some removal like Murderous Cut could be bad, i feel really bad going out w/out al least 6 removal spells (not considering mass removals).
Murderous Cut is great in a bgx/twin heavy meta but never more than a 1 of. Unlike Grixis Delver this deck cannot fill its graveyard fast enough to make it an early game play and if you are looking for more spot removal against the fast decks the only ones that can work are Oust or Condemn. A case could be made for Disfigure but I rather play sorcery speed removal that can deal with goyf/rhino rather than a chesp lightning bolt imitation that cannot rven go for the dome when its bad as a removal spell.
I have been considering running Inquisition of Kozilek over Duress in the side. What are some reasons to run one over the other? It seems that Inquisition hits most of the non-creature spells we are trying to hit (outside of Karn) while also hitting creatures that we have trouble with. Thoughts?
I also have been testing the 3rd and 4th Remand in the Shadow of Doubt flex spot and it seems to fill the spot nicely. It helps get us out of the early game and into Cryptic/Wrath range and also cantrips. Thoughts?
Aside from Affinity, Infect (Inkmoth), and Tron, Go for the Throat is excellnt vs Junk/Jund/Company/Grixis Delver, which are all top tier decks. It's also great vs Skite because it can't redirect Go for the Throat to itself.
Also, hand disruption is more powerful than counters right now and playing the waiting game is not the best place to be in Control, at least in Esper.
I mention this and more in Ali Aintrazi's latest article on TCG Player:
My overall findings were that Jeskai is a better Geist shell. It's better at clearing a path, and it maximizes his upsides because of it's reach. That being said, I've seen this mentioned on some other sites and I've been meaning to give it a try.
Syr but wrong thread. That is a midrange deck and certainly not control
there is a thread for esper midrange in the tier 2 section of the modern board
Upon closer analyzation, you'll realize this is very much Control, but from a different approach. Post-board it can transition into an Esper Walkers deck.
Syr but wrong thread. That is a midrange deck and certainly not control
there is a thread for esper midrange in the tier 2 section of the modern board
Upon closer analyzation, you'll realize this is very much Control, but from a different approach. Post-board it can transition into an Esper Walkers deck.
No i can look as close as i want its still a typical blue midrange deck
Ok. This is going to be the common stigma. I respect that. Have you read the article?
I would not want to play a blue midrange deck with bad matches against midrange in a high level paper event because most pros or high level grinders gravitate towards decks like jund/junk when it comes to gps. Thats where the strrngth of this deck lies. I see do many top 8s that esper control would just walk all over if only the pilot can survive through the weird matches and linear decks in the earlier rounds. If I had to battle bgx, twin, company, and non bolt based aggro (affinity) all day I will be one happy man.
I would not want to play a blue midrange deck with bad matches against midrange in a high level paper event because most pros or high level grinders gravitate towards decks like jund/junk when it comes to gps. Thats where the strrngth of this deck lies. I see do many top 8s that esper control would just walk all over if only the pilot can survive through the weird matches and linear decks in the earlier rounds. If I had to battle bgx, twin, company, and non bolt based aggro (affinity) all day I will be one happy man.
I understand what you're saying, but this deck doesn't have bad matches against Junk/Jund. Vs Junk, for instance, a player reported to me that his opponent scooped after Seize took his Noble, also revealing 3 Goyfs, and he followed up with a Meddling Mage naming Goyf.
Vs Infect, I Sculler creatures/pumps and name Vines/Rancor or a pump spell he/she has multiple copies of.
Vs Affinity, I hit Etherium/Champion with Sculler and name them, or Steel Overseer/Dismember/Galvonic Blast with Mage.
Vs BW Tokens, I name Spectral/Souls and eat Virtues with Sculler and Charms.
Vs Tron, I name Pyroclasm/Karn/Ugin/Emrakul or bounce Sculler with Resto after they Ugin for Emrakul so I can exile Emrakul.
Vs Company, I use a combination of Ashiok/Elspeth to steal creatures and put them on the clock. 7/7 Flying Loxodon Rhino? Sure.
This is not your typical Esper deck.
I do all this and more while also establishing board pressure with 2/2's who become 5/5's with Elspeth. It's a powerful formula that has not only crippled decks, bu even intrigued Ali Aintrazi enough to post an article about it. He called it 'A Beauty."
Post-board, I can go all-out tapout Walker Control vs grindy match ups after they side in more creature hate.
Definitely the most versatile and adaptable Esper deck I've played to date.
I am thinking about running this list. The issue is that I am going to play to a new place, and therefore I have no idea of the meta, so no idea about the sideboard.
Any opinion about the list and help with the sideboard? Thanks
Seems like you have too many high end cards which are arguably too low impact for their cost (consecrated Sphinx) and thoughtseize should not be in the main of a pure late game deck. Thoughtseize is good when backed by a proactive gameplan and when we want to go in that direction you should ask yourself why are you just not playing goyf.Utter End is just too exspensive for a 1 for 1 answer card and you would be better served playing more dpell snares or other cheap co7nters/removal. You should also find room for the 4 think twice.
Thanks for your contribution, but this is definitely the wrong forum. There is an Esper Midrange thread under tier 2.
There are Mana Leaks present, less than 4 Esper charm, and only 23 Lands. You and I both know this isn't Esper Control,it is an Esper Midrange deck that you jammed a couple planeswalkers into.
Are you implying this deck doesn't 'control'? It does so very well, but through a different approach. It's highly disruptive (4 IoK, 2 Seize, 3 Sculler, 3 Mage, 1 Clique, 3 Charms), packs a lot of removal, 7 counters (with board), and Walkers. It even has 4 big draw spells + 1 Jace, AoT.
The 23 lands is because it's a Control deck with a lower curve than the norm.
Feedback from a player who has played vs my deck with his Grixis Twin:
"I play grixis twin, and I gotta say - This deck is a pain in the ass. It's controlling, it's aggressive, and it's just absurdly powerful. This deck is not easy to beat. Out of our 20+ sets I won 3 of them. I never 2-0 him either. A+ deck."
Are you implying this deck doesn't 'control'? It does so very well, but through a different approach. It's highly disruptive (4 IoK, 2 Seize, 3 Sculler, 3 Mage, 1 Clique, 3 Charms), packs a lot of removal, 7 counters (with board), and Walkers. It even has 4 big draw spells + 1 Jace, AoT.
The 23 lands is because it's a Control deck with a lower curve than the norm.
Feedback from a player who has played vs my deck with his Grixis Twin:
"I play grixis twin, and I gotta say - This deck is a pain in the ass. It's controlling, it's aggressive, and it's just absurdly powerful. This deck is not easy to beat. Out of our 20+ sets I won 3 of them. I never 2-0 him either. A+ deck."
Bgx d3cks control but no one will call them true control decks. No one is saying your list is bad its just not following the true philosophies of a control deck. It is a h6brid of aggro and control thus midrange same as bgx only difference is that it uses counter magic along with discard and removal. Its not a stigma thing either its just where it falls in the spectrum of archetypes which will be more towards the middle while wafo tapa style decks usually go to the complete control side.
Are you implying this deck doesn't 'control'? It does so very well, but through a different approach. It's highly disruptive (4 IoK, 2 Seize, 3 Sculler, 3 Mage, 1 Clique, 3 Charms), packs a lot of removal, 7 counters (with board), and Walkers. It even has 4 big draw spells + 1 Jace, AoT.
The 23 lands is because it's a Control deck with a lower curve than the norm.
Feedback from a player who has played vs my deck with his Grixis Twin:
"I play grixis twin, and I gotta say - This deck is a pain in the ass. It's controlling, it's aggressive, and it's just absurdly powerful. This deck is not easy to beat. Out of our 20+ sets I won 3 of them. I never 2-0 him either. A+ deck."
Bgx d3cks control but no one will call them true control decks. No one is saying your list is bad its just not following the true philosophies of a control deck. It is a h6brid of aggro and control thus midrange same as bgx only difference is that it uses counter magic along with discard and removal. Its not a stigma thing either its just where it falls in the spectrum of archetypes which will be more towards the middle while wafo tapa style decks usually go to the complete control side.
I appreciate your response. Hybrid is what I was going for. Thank you.
Jund is also kinda control. you have discard for control and you get your card advantage via dark confidant.. but it's different from Ux control decks.
..it's midrange because you don't have the high endgame engines and so on..
I think the point is that this thread is for discusing Esper Draw-Go control mostly (or exclusively). I think this Twix deck is nice and all, but it'd be better if you started a thread on Deck Creation or see if there's some discusion going on about it at the Esper Midrange thread on Tier 2.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
In actuality black removal is just terrible in modern. 2 mana removal is too exspensive and they all have worse downsides than bolt. In a world of goblin guide, delver, and affinity you want your removal to be as cheap as possible without costing you life. The reason to run black is not for better removal but for better card advantage and sideboard
hand disruption. Bgx can be beaten with just wrath effects paths and as many divinations as you can get. With this philosophy in mind I think serum visions is not good enough for this deck since card advantage>card quality here.
Also the esper charms and twice are not just to find answers that is a by product but to get ahead which is the secret wincon of this deck to have more cards than the other guy.
The entire strong point of the deck is card advantage. So much to the point that the only reason it's acceptable to play things like path / Logic Knot are because a) we have to, and b) we do have snapcaster mage for value.
Serum Visions is not even neutral, it is progressively and actively bad in this sort of setting. At least Anticipate is easier to flashback with snapcaster mage, and even that isn't "great". Think Twice is an absolutely essentially core piece of the deck's engine.
Let's all try saying it together:
Think twice. Is an absolutely essential. Core Piece. Of the deck's engine.
Very good!
Again, Think Twice makes Esper Charm even better than Esper Charm would be on it's own, because you can choose to stack up exponential insane raw card advantage, OR you can take some pressure off of Esper Charm being the only way to generate card advantage.
For example: if Esper Charm is your ONLY cheap source of raw card advantage (because you are playing Serum Visions or Anticipate) , then whenever you draw Esper Charm you absolutely 100% MUST use it to draw two cards. Period. Otherwise you fall behind.
However if you have already cast 1-2 Think twice, then you rip the Esper Charm, you are ahead on cards, and can now decide if you want to draw 2 more, or if MindRotting the opponent is more beneficial. Without Think Twice, you don't even have a choice, you MUST draw 2 cards because you really have no other options to maintain a card advantage.
If you really love Serum Visions and Anticipate, play twin, or at least play something combo-ish like Gifts.
Also I encourage people to start with the Wafo-Tapa list and make changes from there, rather than taking a shot in the dark.
In my opinion, having played the original version VERY extensively the flex slots are as follows:
* 2 Shadow of Doubt / 1 Cryptic Command / 1 Snapcaster Mage *
I think the 4 Spell Snare are absolutely essential to consistently beating Affinity / gbX and having a fair shot against RDW.
Also in the board I've been testing Story Circle and it's fantastic. Really you just want it to be a Counterspell that sits on the board and can be repeatedly activated for W to counter lightning bolt, rift bolt, boros charm, etc.
Also good against Delver because you name red and you can cut off young pyromancer attacks / a few tokens as well, depending on how much W you can get.
Typically, Condemn is what most people choose.
1 Condemn and 1 Murderous Cut would be ok.
Murderous Cut is great in a bgx/twin heavy meta but never more than a 1 of. Unlike Grixis Delver this deck cannot fill its graveyard fast enough to make it an early game play and if you are looking for more spot removal against the fast decks the only ones that can work are Oust or Condemn. A case could be made for Disfigure but I rather play sorcery speed removal that can deal with goyf/rhino rather than a chesp lightning bolt imitation that cannot rven go for the dome when its bad as a removal spell.
I also have been testing the 3rd and 4th Remand in the Shadow of Doubt flex spot and it seems to fill the spot nicely. It helps get us out of the early game and into Cryptic/Wrath range and also cantrips. Thoughts?
Also, hand disruption is more powerful than counters right now and playing the waiting game is not the best place to be in Control, at least in Esper.
I mention this and more in Ali Aintrazi's latest article on TCG Player:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=12585&writerAli
It also includes my brew, Esper Twix, which has been the best iteration of Esper I've played to date.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1240705
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Meddling Mage
2 Restoration Angel
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers: 3
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Spells: 20
3 Esper Charm
1 Go for the Throat
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Mana Leak
1 Murderous Cut
4 Path to Exile
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Spell Snare
2 Thoughtseize
1 Celestial Colonnade
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Flooded Strand
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Godless Shrine
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Dispel
1 Gideon Jura
1 Go for the Throat
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Negate
2 Spellskite
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Utter End
1 Wrath of God
I played a similar deck, a while back. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaUnM24uNg0A3Uc4BHcwzDp3gRe068BCH
My overall findings were that Jeskai is a better Geist shell. It's better at clearing a path, and it maximizes his upsides because of it's reach. That being said, I've seen this mentioned on some other sites and I've been meaning to give it a try.
Upon closer analyzation, you'll realize this is very much Control, but from a different approach. Post-board it can transition into an Esper Walkers deck.
Ok. This is going to be the common stigma. I respect that. Have you read the article?
I understand what you're saying, but this deck doesn't have bad matches against Junk/Jund. Vs Junk, for instance, a player reported to me that his opponent scooped after Seize took his Noble, also revealing 3 Goyfs, and he followed up with a Meddling Mage naming Goyf.
Vs Infect, I Sculler creatures/pumps and name Vines/Rancor or a pump spell he/she has multiple copies of.
Vs Affinity, I hit Etherium/Champion with Sculler and name them, or Steel Overseer/Dismember/Galvonic Blast with Mage.
Vs BW Tokens, I name Spectral/Souls and eat Virtues with Sculler and Charms.
Vs Tron, I name Pyroclasm/Karn/Ugin/Emrakul or bounce Sculler with Resto after they Ugin for Emrakul so I can exile Emrakul.
Vs Company, I use a combination of Ashiok/Elspeth to steal creatures and put them on the clock. 7/7 Flying Loxodon Rhino? Sure.
This is not your typical Esper deck.
I do all this and more while also establishing board pressure with 2/2's who become 5/5's with Elspeth. It's a powerful formula that has not only crippled decks, bu even intrigued Ali Aintrazi enough to post an article about it. He called it 'A Beauty."
Post-board, I can go all-out tapout Walker Control vs grindy match ups after they side in more creature hate.
Definitely the most versatile and adaptable Esper deck I've played to date.
Seems like you have too many high end cards which are arguably too low impact for their cost (consecrated Sphinx) and thoughtseize should not be in the main of a pure late game deck. Thoughtseize is good when backed by a proactive gameplan and when we want to go in that direction you should ask yourself why are you just not playing goyf.Utter End is just too exspensive for a 1 for 1 answer card and you would be better served playing more dpell snares or other cheap co7nters/removal. You should also find room for the 4 think twice.
Thanks for your contribution, but this is definitely the wrong forum. There is an Esper Midrange thread under tier 2.
There are Mana Leaks present, less than 4 Esper charm, and only 23 Lands. You and I both know this isn't Esper Control,it is an Esper Midrange deck that you jammed a couple planeswalkers into.
The 23 lands is because it's a Control deck with a lower curve than the norm.
Feedback from a player who has played vs my deck with his Grixis Twin:
"I play grixis twin, and I gotta say - This deck is a pain in the ass. It's controlling, it's aggressive, and it's just absurdly powerful. This deck is not easy to beat. Out of our 20+ sets I won 3 of them. I never 2-0 him either. A+ deck."
Bgx d3cks control but no one will call them true control decks. No one is saying your list is bad its just not following the true philosophies of a control deck. It is a h6brid of aggro and control thus midrange same as bgx only difference is that it uses counter magic along with discard and removal. Its not a stigma thing either its just where it falls in the spectrum of archetypes which will be more towards the middle while wafo tapa style decks usually go to the complete control side.
I appreciate your response. Hybrid is what I was going for. Thank you.
This one does:
1 Gideon Jura
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Sphinx's Revelation
I'm also considering 4th Charm.