I've been mainly a Bant Knightfall player ever since the deck became a thing and since the unbans almost all Knightfall players are building around Jace but after playing with both BBE and JTMS, I think moving towards BBE is going to be the better way to go. Ended up building a deck that's kind of like Zoo splashing Retreat, interested in your guys's thoughts.
Grim Lavamancer: I think this card is criminally underplayed in modern. There is some tension between eating ooze and knight fuel but if he's active and shooting opponent creatures down then it generally doesn't matter if your knights and oozes are a bit smaller. In fact, I've had it come up quite a bit where I just use KOTR's ability to feed the lava man. This card and Ghor-Clan are creature removal/ways to bypass opponents' creatures able to be picked up by Domri.
Qasali Pridemage: He and Hierarch are actually decent BBE cascades because they allow her to attack when she'd otherwise be embarrassingly held back by a lone snapcaster, thalia, VoR, etc. They also make the Nacatls scale well into the mid game rather than being outclassed in combat by opponent goyfs (also have some game shrinking goyfs with lavamancer and ooze). The ability to blow up hollow one, Pentad prism/phyrexian unlife/lotus bloom, plating, eidolon of the great revel, etc. in game 1 can give you a chance in games you would otherwise have no business winning.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: It's her time to shine now that we don't have to worry about our 4 mana 2-for-1 getting taxed to an atrocious 5 mana. She slows down opponents just enough to buy us an extra turn or two to keep swinging. Keep opponents casting 1 spell per turn while we're casting two or just delay their board wipes, K Coms, JTMS, etc. until they're either dead or so close that a stiff breeze would knock 'em over. Just be aware that if you hit a bolt, path or domri off BBE cascade you'll have to pay 1 for it with Thalia out.
Ghor-Clan Rampager: 4 damage "burn spell" immune to Thalia tax, uncounterable, grabbed by Domri, game ender, decent beater if you're desperate for a creature and flooded on mana, feeds the ooze, acts as removal but isn't hit by BBE cascade so it's not wasted onto an empty board like PtE is. After opponents have gotten got by this once or twice you can sometimes get in free damage by bluffing it.
Magus of the Moon: Jury's out on this guy. I have tried to make him work in creature-based Thalia decks in the past but he always seems to get offed shortly after hitting the board. I was running Blood Moons but I had a few hands where I needed to T2 Thalia and couldn't follow up with moon. On the other hand, I’ve also had cases where I cast T2 Thalia, they fetch nonbasics and use up their turn removing her and then I drop a Moon. Perhaps the enchantment is preferable just because it’s more likely to stick.
Mirran Crusader: Most of the large creatures we'd want to swing through are either black or green. Dodges a fair amount of removal and plays well with exalted triggers. He is kind of a nonbo with Ghor-Clan, but still worth running in the deck. Intentionally running this over Smiter.
Grafdigger's Cage: Choosing to run this as it's the most versatile of the gy hate cards, hitting coco, chord, madcap experiment, while being a low enough investment cost for bringing in 1 or more to shut off SCM/second half of souls/faithless looting. Rest in Peace neuters too much of the deck. Living End can be a beating but it's not unwinnable if you have a Hierarch into ooze draw or you can trip them up with Thalia. An early Rampager or two bloodrushed into the bin can buy you some time to stabilize post-Living End as well.
Reclamation Sage: This could just be the 4th Pridemage but I like that it leaves behind the 2/1 body after doing its job.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar: Can be an aggressive card in that it can put potential blockers into play tapped so you can still swing through with the team. It's also a heavily disruptive card performing a similar job to little Thalia but in a different way. I especially love this card against Tron. Seeing their 3rd tron land come into play tapped is terrific. And when their follow up play is a tapped wurmcoil, eeermaaahgerd..
Gaddock Teeg: Stops cryptics, verdict/wrath/damnation, karns, past in flames, gifts ungiven, ad nauseam, scapeshift, JTMS, CoCo (if anyone's still running that). I don’t think I need to argue his merits here.
Kor Firewalker: Choosing to go with the 1/1 split between this and Finks. Finks is more versatile but I think this card is just a lot stronger against burn.
Domri Rade: He acts as card advantage, card selection, creature removal, and inevitability. If his +1 sees a land, you can shuffle it away with a fetch, KOTR's search or just BBE to clear the top. He works exceedingly well with exalted triggers when you use his -2 post-combat after your Nacatl becomes a 4/4, 5/5, etc. I often find myself using +1 finding a Ghor-Clan Rampager, then blood rush +4/+4 a creature on the following turn allowing his -2 to kill a large creature, then cash him in for one more -2 on the next turn. The -2 is also a great way to make use of KOTR's large body in a board stall situation. All the modes are relevant, hitting him off BBE is nuts, in short, I'm just in love with this card in this deck.
I tried quite a bit to make Renegade Rallier work but it just felt too clunky/durdly to me. I don't like that both conditions need to be met: a decent creature in the yard *and* a way to trigger revolt. Sure, you could return a fetch-land, but I feel like I'm playing pretty low to the ground and don't need a creature to ramp. I even went so far as to try Satyr Wayfinder with him so I could give him more targets to return. Sure, you could get cute with Seal of Fire and what-not but even that just seems like you're doing a bad impression of Grim Lavamancer. If anything, I think he might be a sideboard card to be brought in against decks with lots of black and red removal (i.e. not Path to Exile). For those of you wanting to make Rallier work, I've found in the past that Lone Missionary, Selfless Spirit, Burrenton Forge-Tender and Qasali Pridemage work well with him. Recurring a Missionary that just gained you 4 life and traded with a Goblin Guide is pretty much game over against a burn deck (just be wary Skullcrack). BFT, Selfless and Qasali are nice because you can re-use their abilities *and* they trigger Revolt.
I made a conscious decision not to run Tarmogoyf because 1) I want to be running Lavamancer and Ooze, 2) He doesn't get that big in this kind of deck anyway (we're not thoughtseizing away our opponents' planeswalkers), 3) He's just a big dumb beater that doesn't do anything aside from being a big body. KOTR is a big body for 1 more mana but does a whole lot more.
For what it's worth, I think Thalia is actually worse now because she makes you have to hold 1 extra up when BBE so you can cascade into non-creature spells. The best hate bear now that BBE is unbanned is actually Gaddock Teeg. Since we no longer play CoCo we don't have anything that gets hit by him, except a walker or two if you go that route. Also Eidolon of Rhetoric also got worse since cascade states you "caste" the card. So now Eidolon and Thalia got marginally worse while Teeg got much better.
I actually had the same idea so I cut Thalia and run 2 Gaddock Teeg, I never ran Eidolon in Zoo, I did in Knightfall for Storm though.
I feel Gaddock serves the same purpose as Thalia as in you need to spend a minimum of 2 cards and 5 mana for a wrath, jace, gideon or coco. If done a turn earlier it's a great reanimation target for Renegade Rallier too.
For what it's worth, I think Thalia is actually worse now because she makes you have to hold 1 extra up when BBE so you can cascade into non-creature spells. The best hate bear now that BBE is unbanned is actually Gaddock Teeg. Since we no longer play CoCo we don't have anything that gets hit by him, except a walker or two if you go that route. Also Eidolon of Rhetoric also got worse since cascade states you "caste" the card. So now Eidolon and Thalia got marginally worse while Teeg got much better.
Thalia and Teeg aren't in the same league. Thalia often affects 90+% of an opponents' nonland cards while Teeg might only hit 2-4 cards. Taxing removal spells and cantrips is an enormous tempo swing. Having Thalia in play with this deck is like having an Ethersworn Canonist in play that only affects the opponent. I also think that Thalia is great against the decks that Zoo is weak against: decks with heavy removal, decks with 2-for-1s like k com, cryptic and liliana that can grind us down. I've played a lot of Jund, Grixis Control, Abzan, etc. against Thalia and she just puts you so far behind that once you're able to remove her from the battlefield its often too late. I also think having a higher density of "must-kill" cards against these decks is important. If Thalia eats a Path, then our KOTR (or whatever your beater of choice is) might stick to the board. Thalia's first strike is also very relevant when you're swinging with exalted triggers and giving her trample. I think Teeg is mostly a card that I want against combo (Past in Flames / Gifts / Ad Nauseam, Unburial Rites, Scapeshift, Conflagrate, random stuff like Faith's Reward, etc.) that is decent against decks that pack Wraths and Cryptics. I'd much rather have a Thalia than a Teeg in play versus these kinds of decks though. If you're running 30 creatures and 7-8 spells then BBE still has a 75% of hitting a creature. Let's not forget that for us to be punished by this "nonbo" all three conditions have to be true, 1) you are tapping out and don't have 1 mana to spare, 2) Thalia is in play, 3) you cascaded into a noncreature spell (25% chance). I find that the early Thalias often die as its a high priority target for opponents to kill. Just because Thalia is before BBE in the curve doesn't mean she'll still be on the table by the time you cast BBE. Lastly, as you mentioned, Eidolon of Rhetoric and Canonist got worse with the addition of BBE, which makes Thalia all the more important to combat decks that love to cast multiple spells in a turn.
Just to jump in as a long time zoo player... you still ran canonists and thalias in zoo, even back when BBElf was legal. The power levels were high enough to justify it.
Thalia being able to come in against midrange decks is worth considering. However, against Combo and big mana, she's can often just be a dud.
Gaddock Teeg really shines against Traditional Tron, Storm, and Ad Naus. I also like him against Verdict decks, Ponza, and Chord/Company decks.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is a fine card, and certainly more maindeckable than Gaddock, but if you're looking for a lights-out card vs. Storm, Ad Naus, Tron, or Verdict decks, you're probably looking in the wrong place. But I will agree that Thalia is much better vs. Fatal Push decks.
I'm not suggesting either is better -- it's just that each has different applications and roles in the metagame.
Went 4-1 losing to jund, in game 3 I was stuck on two lands nearly the whole game with three bloodbraid elfs in hand. By the time I was able to cast them, I was behind and his BBE were mich better than mine.
2-1 Mirror. He got stuck on 2 forest and a plains game 3 and I doubled ghost quartered him.
2-1 UWR Gesit. He was playing spell queller and decided to queller my BBE instead of the knight I cascaded into and eventually pathed the queller to cascade again. lol
1-2 Jund read above. Note: ultimated Domri game 1
2-1 RG ponza. He got stuck on 1 land game 3, really need turn one noble
2-0 Mono white taxes. Pretty easy
Still working on the board, but I liked how it played out. Domri was good not great, but I didn't get to play against a Jace deck.
It's very aggressive with BBE and helps close the game against other aggressive strategies. Mainly there, when you stabilize, you have to constrict the amount of turns that they have to draw a Boros Charm or the like.
Due to budget reasons, no goyf. I'm actually kind of torn over the number of qasali pridemages as the exalted trigger doesn't seem too relevant when we eventually go wide later mid game. Also considering a 3rd Seal of Fire just for the renegade rallier trigger.
Was going between 20 lands and 3 BBE to include the narnam renegade in Main as well. Synergy with Domri to kill off bigger creatures seem pretty sweet.
Heres what I am running. Been working great. actually having a 50/50 matchup with Jund/k/rock, and Have only lost 1 round against all jace decks (midrange and control, around 30 or so control decks.)
This deck does not lose to any removal decks really. Ive beaten pretty much all blood moon destroy lands decks too. Been over preforming. I think if you are going rallier, this is the best version you can run. I'll work on a thalia build next... though Atarkas command build is also pretty cool in my head.
Voice and ooze 2-1 can be swapped, but not noticeable reason to do it in my testing. Probably can run bloodmoon too over choke. Theres just enough blue right now that its basically one sided blood moon. Id switch a horizon into a forest.
Overall, the deck is super solid. Tier 2, 1.5? Not 1. Please take it out for a spin. Comment if you want any questions on this build answered. I'm about 100 rounds in now.
Heres what I am running. Been working great. actually having a 50/50 matchup with Jund/k/rock, and Have only lost 1 round against all jace decks (midrange and control, around 30 or so control decks.)
This deck does not lose to any removal decks really. Ive beaten pretty much all blood moon destroy lands decks too. Been over preforming. I think if you are going rallier, this is the best version you can run. I'll work on a thalia build next... though Atarkas command build is also pretty cool in my head.
Voice and ooze 2-1 can be swapped, but not noticeable reason to do it in my testing. Probably can run bloodmoon too over choke. Theres just enough blue right now that its basically one sided blood moon. Id switch a horizon into a forest.
Overall, the deck is super solid. Tier 2, 1.5? Not 1. Please take it out for a spin. Comment if you want any questions on this build answered. I'm about 100 rounds in now.
I'll try this out on thursday. Probably playing the side a little bit different, but I'll keep the maindeck.
Heres what I am running. Been working great. actually having a 50/50 matchup with Jund/k/rock, and Have only lost 1 round against all jace decks (midrange and control, around 30 or so control decks.)
This deck does not lose to any removal decks really. Ive beaten pretty much all blood moon destroy lands decks too. Been over preforming. I think if you are going rallier, this is the best version you can run. I'll work on a thalia build next... though Atarkas command build is also pretty cool in my head.
Voice and ooze 2-1 can be swapped, but not noticeable reason to do it in my testing. Probably can run bloodmoon too over choke. Theres just enough blue right now that its basically one sided blood moon. Id switch a horizon into a forest.
Overall, the deck is super solid. Tier 2, 1.5? Not 1. Please take it out for a spin. Comment if you want any questions on this build answered. I'm about 100 rounds in now.
Great to see you back in the Zoo again! Even more so that you like the list Enabling Renegade Rallier the way this deck does feels so good! I'm actually very exited to play vs jund now. I know Grixis is a breeze, but we might need some tech v.s. tokens. (Pyromancer / Souls) though the trample at our disposal gets us a long way.
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Mantis Rider
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Sorcery (4)
4 Tribal Flames
Instant (10)
2 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
Land (22)
1 Blood Crypt
1 Breeding Pool
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Lingering Souls
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
1x Breeding Pool
3x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Stomping Ground
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Bloodbraid Elf
3x Courser of Kruphix
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Tireless Tracker
4x Voice of Resurgence
Instant (7)
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Path to Exile
Enchantment (3)
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Domri Rade
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Choke
2x Dromoka's Command
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Izzet Staticaster
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Stony Silence
GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy:
GWB Maverick
EDH:
GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
2 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Temple Garden
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Horizon Canopy
(30 Creatures)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Domri Rade
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Stony Silence
1 Aven Mindcensor
Grim Lavamancer: I think this card is criminally underplayed in modern. There is some tension between eating ooze and knight fuel but if he's active and shooting opponent creatures down then it generally doesn't matter if your knights and oozes are a bit smaller. In fact, I've had it come up quite a bit where I just use KOTR's ability to feed the lava man. This card and Ghor-Clan are creature removal/ways to bypass opponents' creatures able to be picked up by Domri.
Qasali Pridemage: He and Hierarch are actually decent BBE cascades because they allow her to attack when she'd otherwise be embarrassingly held back by a lone snapcaster, thalia, VoR, etc. They also make the Nacatls scale well into the mid game rather than being outclassed in combat by opponent goyfs (also have some game shrinking goyfs with lavamancer and ooze). The ability to blow up hollow one, Pentad prism/phyrexian unlife/lotus bloom, plating, eidolon of the great revel, etc. in game 1 can give you a chance in games you would otherwise have no business winning.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: It's her time to shine now that we don't have to worry about our 4 mana 2-for-1 getting taxed to an atrocious 5 mana. She slows down opponents just enough to buy us an extra turn or two to keep swinging. Keep opponents casting 1 spell per turn while we're casting two or just delay their board wipes, K Coms, JTMS, etc. until they're either dead or so close that a stiff breeze would knock 'em over. Just be aware that if you hit a bolt, path or domri off BBE cascade you'll have to pay 1 for it with Thalia out.
Ghor-Clan Rampager: 4 damage "burn spell" immune to Thalia tax, uncounterable, grabbed by Domri, game ender, decent beater if you're desperate for a creature and flooded on mana, feeds the ooze, acts as removal but isn't hit by BBE cascade so it's not wasted onto an empty board like PtE is. After opponents have gotten got by this once or twice you can sometimes get in free damage by bluffing it.
Magus of the Moon: Jury's out on this guy. I have tried to make him work in creature-based Thalia decks in the past but he always seems to get offed shortly after hitting the board. I was running Blood Moons but I had a few hands where I needed to T2 Thalia and couldn't follow up with moon. On the other hand, I’ve also had cases where I cast T2 Thalia, they fetch nonbasics and use up their turn removing her and then I drop a Moon. Perhaps the enchantment is preferable just because it’s more likely to stick.
Mirran Crusader: Most of the large creatures we'd want to swing through are either black or green. Dodges a fair amount of removal and plays well with exalted triggers. He is kind of a nonbo with Ghor-Clan, but still worth running in the deck. Intentionally running this over Smiter.
Grafdigger's Cage: Choosing to run this as it's the most versatile of the gy hate cards, hitting coco, chord, madcap experiment, while being a low enough investment cost for bringing in 1 or more to shut off SCM/second half of souls/faithless looting. Rest in Peace neuters too much of the deck. Living End can be a beating but it's not unwinnable if you have a Hierarch into ooze draw or you can trip them up with Thalia. An early Rampager or two bloodrushed into the bin can buy you some time to stabilize post-Living End as well.
Reclamation Sage: This could just be the 4th Pridemage but I like that it leaves behind the 2/1 body after doing its job.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar: Can be an aggressive card in that it can put potential blockers into play tapped so you can still swing through with the team. It's also a heavily disruptive card performing a similar job to little Thalia but in a different way. I especially love this card against Tron. Seeing their 3rd tron land come into play tapped is terrific. And when their follow up play is a tapped wurmcoil, eeermaaahgerd..
Gaddock Teeg: Stops cryptics, verdict/wrath/damnation, karns, past in flames, gifts ungiven, ad nauseam, scapeshift, JTMS, CoCo (if anyone's still running that). I don’t think I need to argue his merits here.
Kor Firewalker: Choosing to go with the 1/1 split between this and Finks. Finks is more versatile but I think this card is just a lot stronger against burn.
Domri Rade: He acts as card advantage, card selection, creature removal, and inevitability. If his +1 sees a land, you can shuffle it away with a fetch, KOTR's search or just BBE to clear the top. He works exceedingly well with exalted triggers when you use his -2 post-combat after your Nacatl becomes a 4/4, 5/5, etc. I often find myself using +1 finding a Ghor-Clan Rampager, then blood rush +4/+4 a creature on the following turn allowing his -2 to kill a large creature, then cash him in for one more -2 on the next turn. The -2 is also a great way to make use of KOTR's large body in a board stall situation. All the modes are relevant, hitting him off BBE is nuts, in short, I'm just in love with this card in this deck.
I tried quite a bit to make Renegade Rallier work but it just felt too clunky/durdly to me. I don't like that both conditions need to be met: a decent creature in the yard *and* a way to trigger revolt. Sure, you could return a fetch-land, but I feel like I'm playing pretty low to the ground and don't need a creature to ramp. I even went so far as to try Satyr Wayfinder with him so I could give him more targets to return. Sure, you could get cute with Seal of Fire and what-not but even that just seems like you're doing a bad impression of Grim Lavamancer. If anything, I think he might be a sideboard card to be brought in against decks with lots of black and red removal (i.e. not Path to Exile). For those of you wanting to make Rallier work, I've found in the past that Lone Missionary, Selfless Spirit, Burrenton Forge-Tender and Qasali Pridemage work well with him. Recurring a Missionary that just gained you 4 life and traded with a Goblin Guide is pretty much game over against a burn deck (just be wary Skullcrack). BFT, Selfless and Qasali are nice because you can re-use their abilities *and* they trigger Revolt.
I made a conscious decision not to run Tarmogoyf because 1) I want to be running Lavamancer and Ooze, 2) He doesn't get that big in this kind of deck anyway (we're not thoughtseizing away our opponents' planeswalkers), 3) He's just a big dumb beater that doesn't do anything aside from being a big body. KOTR is a big body for 1 more mana but does a whole lot more.
RBGJundRBG
UBRGrixis ControlUBR
Just wanted to share
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
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I feel Gaddock serves the same purpose as Thalia as in you need to spend a minimum of 2 cards and 5 mana for a wrath, jace, gideon or coco. If done a turn earlier it's a great reanimation target for Renegade Rallier too.
Currently my sideboard consists of:
3 Stony Silence
2 Selfless Spirit
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Blood Moon
2 Kitchen Finks
Curious to hear what others think we need tech against.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I actually think a deck like this might be very interested in Jeskai Charm over Boros Charm. It's not like it has a super high curve anyway.
J. Charm lets you get a Wurmcoil off the table for a turn as well as a path against fetchland decks when it isn't cascaded off of BBE.
Plus, more lifegain never hurt a manabase this painful.
Oh, and it probably wants to play Noble Hierarch over Loam Lion.
2/3s are a real bummer.
Thalia and Teeg aren't in the same league. Thalia often affects 90+% of an opponents' nonland cards while Teeg might only hit 2-4 cards. Taxing removal spells and cantrips is an enormous tempo swing. Having Thalia in play with this deck is like having an Ethersworn Canonist in play that only affects the opponent. I also think that Thalia is great against the decks that Zoo is weak against: decks with heavy removal, decks with 2-for-1s like k com, cryptic and liliana that can grind us down. I've played a lot of Jund, Grixis Control, Abzan, etc. against Thalia and she just puts you so far behind that once you're able to remove her from the battlefield its often too late. I also think having a higher density of "must-kill" cards against these decks is important. If Thalia eats a Path, then our KOTR (or whatever your beater of choice is) might stick to the board. Thalia's first strike is also very relevant when you're swinging with exalted triggers and giving her trample. I think Teeg is mostly a card that I want against combo (Past in Flames / Gifts / Ad Nauseam, Unburial Rites, Scapeshift, Conflagrate, random stuff like Faith's Reward, etc.) that is decent against decks that pack Wraths and Cryptics. I'd much rather have a Thalia than a Teeg in play versus these kinds of decks though. If you're running 30 creatures and 7-8 spells then BBE still has a 75% of hitting a creature. Let's not forget that for us to be punished by this "nonbo" all three conditions have to be true, 1) you are tapping out and don't have 1 mana to spare, 2) Thalia is in play, 3) you cascaded into a noncreature spell (25% chance). I find that the early Thalias often die as its a high priority target for opponents to kill. Just because Thalia is before BBE in the curve doesn't mean she'll still be on the table by the time you cast BBE. Lastly, as you mentioned, Eidolon of Rhetoric and Canonist got worse with the addition of BBE, which makes Thalia all the more important to combat decks that love to cast multiple spells in a turn.
RBGJundRBG
UBRGrixis ControlUBR
Not picking a side here, just pointing it out
Gaddock Teeg really shines against Traditional Tron, Storm, and Ad Naus. I also like him against Verdict decks, Ponza, and Chord/Company decks.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is a fine card, and certainly more maindeckable than Gaddock, but if you're looking for a lights-out card vs. Storm, Ad Naus, Tron, or Verdict decks, you're probably looking in the wrong place. But I will agree that Thalia is much better vs. Fatal Push decks.
I'm not suggesting either is better -- it's just that each has different applications and roles in the metagame.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Renegade Rallier
3 Bloodbraid Elf
10 Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Domri Rade
3 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Treetop Village
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Aven Mincesor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Stony Silence
3 Blood moon
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
Went 4-1 losing to jund, in game 3 I was stuck on two lands nearly the whole game with three bloodbraid elfs in hand. By the time I was able to cast them, I was behind and his BBE were mich better than mine.
2-1 Mirror. He got stuck on 2 forest and a plains game 3 and I doubled ghost quartered him.
2-1 UWR Gesit. He was playing spell queller and decided to queller my BBE instead of the knight I cascaded into and eventually pathed the queller to cascade again. lol
1-2 Jund read above. Note: ultimated Domri game 1
2-1 RG ponza. He got stuck on 1 land game 3, really need turn one noble
2-0 Mono white taxes. Pretty easy
Still working on the board, but I liked how it played out. Domri was good not great, but I didn't get to play against a Jace deck.
I don't love my mana, but found Strangleroot Geist to be quite good.
It's very aggressive with BBE and helps close the game against other aggressive strategies. Mainly there, when you stabilize, you have to constrict the amount of turns that they have to draw a Boros Charm or the like.
Lands
2 Arid Mesa
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Treetop Village
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Renegade Rallier
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Voice of Resurgence
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Domri Rade
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Seal of Fire
2 Dromoka's Command
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
Maybeboard
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Lightning Helix
2 Narnam Renegade
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Smuggler's Copter
Due to budget reasons, no goyf. I'm actually kind of torn over the number of qasali pridemages as the exalted trigger doesn't seem too relevant when we eventually go wide later mid game. Also considering a 3rd Seal of Fire just for the renegade rallier trigger.
Was going between 20 lands and 3 BBE to include the narnam renegade in Main as well. Synergy with Domri to kill off bigger creatures seem pretty sweet.
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Renegade Rallier
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Seal of Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
2 Temple Garden
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Stony Silence
2 Choke
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Path to Exile
Heres what I am running. Been working great. actually having a 50/50 matchup with Jund/k/rock, and Have only lost 1 round against all jace decks (midrange and control, around 30 or so control decks.)
This deck does not lose to any removal decks really. Ive beaten pretty much all blood moon destroy lands decks too. Been over preforming. I think if you are going rallier, this is the best version you can run. I'll work on a thalia build next... though Atarkas command build is also pretty cool in my head.
Voice and ooze 2-1 can be swapped, but not noticeable reason to do it in my testing. Probably can run bloodmoon too over choke. Theres just enough blue right now that its basically one sided blood moon. Id switch a horizon into a forest.
Overall, the deck is super solid. Tier 2, 1.5? Not 1. Please take it out for a spin. Comment if you want any questions on this build answered. I'm about 100 rounds in now.
I'll try this out on thursday. Probably playing the side a little bit different, but I'll keep the maindeck.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
Great to see you back in the Zoo again! Even more so that you like the list Enabling Renegade Rallier the way this deck does feels so good! I'm actually very exited to play vs jund now. I know Grixis is a breeze, but we might need some tech v.s. tokens. (Pyromancer / Souls) though the trample at our disposal gets us a long way.
@Lantern, why don't you play Ghost Quarter?
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
EDIT:
There's another 5-0 from that Tribal list I posted on the last page with Kird Apes, Loam Lions and Mantis Riders.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
That guy went a grand total of 12-7 he's a friend of mine. He doesn't like the list.
Did he say what he would change going forward?
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins