Has anyone thought on playing 2011 Counter-Cat now with Traverse the Ulvenwald in place of GSZ? Changing some stuff to enable delirium and such seems like a fine deck.
A big problem I see with that is that the burn decks were much worse and much less played, so adding a 4th color is more dangerous now.
Playing Scavenging Ooze instead of the gaddock teeg will give us some lifegain and traversing for rhox war monk in post board games seems decent
Also, original counter cat played 3 helixes
There's a cost though - you have to play those cards instead of other cards that are better in other matchups! Another problem: traditionally tempo decks picked up of a lot of their wins against Splinter Twin. Play a threat - especially one that doesn't die to Bolt - and hold up counters + instant speed removal was really good against them. But, well, you know. I suspect the metagame isn't where you want it to be to dust off CounterCat right now. But that's a low confidence speculation and experimentation is certainly worth it.
Pretty much that. The currency Zoo deals in best is speed, thanks to cards like Burning-Tree Emissary allowing you to assemble instantly threatening board states and Reckless Bushwhacker firing up the team. The slower, more value-oriented plan falls prey to the control and midrange decks that have surged back onto the scene of late.
Pretty much that. The currency Zoo deals in best is speed, thanks to cards like Burning-Tree Emissary allowing you to assemble instantly threatening board states and Reckless Bushwhacker firing up the team. The slower, more value-oriented plan falls prey to the control and midrange decks that have surged back onto the scene of late.
I think it's the other way around.
Bushwhacker Zoo has a lot of trouble facing control and midrange decks (Jeskai control on top, with Bolt, Helix, Path and Snaps), since they have a lot of ways to kill our creatures and midrange also has bigger dudes. If we don't have really good hands, we lose.
Bushwhacker Zoo shines in racing non-interactive decks, like Infect, Burn, Tron, Ad Nauseam, and letting other aggros on the backfoot.
Big Zoo is meant to be good on grindy matchups. The deck is built to have ways to rebuild and keep up, while also having early pressure with Nacatl or turn 2 - 3 drop powered by dorks. Be it Company or Planeswalkers your choice of card advantage, once resolved you get ahead of control and midrange. But Big Zoo is slow to fight non-interactive decks.
Pretty much that. The currency Zoo deals in best is speed, thanks to cards like Burning-Tree Emissary allowing you to assemble instantly threatening board states and Reckless Bushwhacker firing up the team. The slower, more value-oriented plan falls prey to the control and midrange decks that have surged back onto the scene of late.
I think it's the other way around.
Bushwhacker Zoo has a lot of trouble facing control and midrange decks (Jeskai control on top, with Bolt, Helix, Path and Snaps), since they have a lot of ways to kill our creatures and midrange also has bigger dudes. If we don't have really good hands, we lose.
Bushwhacker Zoo shines in racing non-interactive decks, like Infect, Burn, Tron, Ad Nauseam, and letting other aggros on the backfoot.
Big Zoo is meant to be good on grindy matchups. The deck is built to have ways to rebuild and keep up, while also having early pressure with Nacatl or turn 2 - 3 drop powered by dorks. Be it Company or Planeswalkers your choice of card advantage, once resolved you get ahead of control and midrange. But Big Zoo is slow to fight non-interactive decks.
This is exactly right. Little zoo is bad against most of the midrange and control decks whether you play Bushwhacker or not. If that's your metagame and you want to play zoo, you want bigger, grindier creatures, not speed.
These are fair counterpoints, and I'll amend my statement regarding midrange (though my understanding is that neither version likes facing them all that much). However, doesn't Small Zoo force control to find a sweeper or die? If a BTE or a Bushwhacker lands (let alone both), most control decks just can't deal with that kind of threat density, especially when it's attacking with haste.
These are fair counterpoints, and I'll amend my statement regarding midrange (though my understanding is that neither version likes facing them all that much). However, doesn't Small Zoo force control to find a sweeper or die? If a BTE or a Bushwhacker lands (let alone both), most control decks just can't deal with that kind of threat density, especially when it's attacking with haste.
Jeskai can pretty much deal with everything without needing a board wipe. They even have Helix (and Snap+Helix) to get their life back. Unless you have a really good hand (and even then, if they have a good hand too and you are on the draw, things get difficult), it's a hard match.
Grixis control I don't see that often here where I play, so I can't say with certainty. They have no way to gain life, but they have discards to cut you from BTE+Whackering them and it can make your hand a lot worse.
Blue Moon I haven't played in a while, but I think they run Anger maindeck. Even then, I think this is the one control matchup that we have on our side. The lack of black/white makes their interaction with us less threatening in the early game and we can put more pressure.
That said, games are not decided on theory alone. These matchs are winnable, but I still consider them hard matches (Jeskai/Grixis) or a little favorable (Blue Moon).
I'm really not remembering other control decks at the moment and those are just my 2 cents on these 3 matchups.
These are fair counterpoints, and I'll amend my statement regarding midrange (though my understanding is that neither version likes facing them all that much). However, doesn't Small Zoo force control to find a sweeper or die? If a BTE or a Bushwhacker lands (let alone both), most control decks just can't deal with that kind of threat density, especially when it's attacking with haste.
Jeskai can pretty much deal with everything without needing a board wipe. They even have Helix (and Snap+Helix) to get their life back. Unless you have a really good hand (and even then, if they have a good hand too and you are on the draw, things get difficult), it's a hard match.
Grixis control I don't see that often here where I play, so I can't say with certainty. They have no way to gain life, but they have discards to cut you from BTE+Whackering them and it can make your hand a lot worse.
Blue Moon I haven't played in a while, but I think they run Anger maindeck. Even then, I think this is the one control matchup that we have on our side. The lack of black/white makes their interaction with us less threatening in the early game and we can put more pressure.
That said, games are not decided on theory alone. These matchs are winnable, but I still consider them hard matches (Jeskai/Grixis) or a little favorable (Blue Moon).
I'm really not remembering other control decks at the moment and those are just my 2 cents on these 3 matchups.
Grixis is easier than UWR for sure. Grixis, like Jund, is close to 50/50 depending on what cards they're playing, though some Grixis lists are MDing Anger of the Gods now. But yes, neither Grixis or UWR needs a sweeper. They each play tons of spot removal, can trade Snapcaster Mages with many of your creatures, and can either drop a big threat in the midgame or Nahiri to eat something else and threaten to win the game in a few turns. As a side note, these are exactly the matchups where I think Naya little zoo is better than Bushwhacker zoo. Less stuff that trades with Snapcaster and more creatures you can save from bolt with Atarka's Command helps a lot.
Round 1 Merfolk 2-1
Round 2 Jeskai stuff 2-1 he had isochron scepter and lightning helix
Round 3 Affinty 2-1
Round 4 Affinity ID played games 2-1
I have to say I'm liking the bushwhacker builds better than naya against affinity. The best way to not let Etched Champion stonewall you is to kill them before it matters much.
So, Naya Company is now a tier 3 deck, despite reaching the finals of GP Charlotte. I still feel like its power level is high enough for modern, but the 75 need some changes to beat Toolbox decks and bigger aggro strategies like Eldrazi. Is anyone still playing that version of Zoo and willing to work on it? I think the key is adding some evasion to the deck, as going wide with Company isn't enough sometimes. I'm going to be running a singleton Elspeth, Knight Errant in the main, but it's most likely not enough.
I'm also thinking of switching over to Bushwacker Zoo as I feel, like most of you, that it's the best shell to play some Wild Nacatls in, but I can't see that deck beating Wall of Roots decks reliably. And these are getting reaaaally popular around here, so that's a concern. I'm prepping for GP Lille, and as always in France, more than half of our player base is playing the "smart" decks, so we expect to see a lot of GBx, Midrange value decks, and Control. Everything else is marginal. Bushwacker Zoo honestly doesn't seem that great in such a metagame. Any thoughts?
So, Naya Company is now a tier 3 deck, despite reaching the finals of GP Charlotte. I still feel like its power level is high enough for modern, but the 75 need some changes to beat Toolbox decks and bigger aggro strategies like Eldrazi. Is anyone still playing that version of Zoo and willing to work on it? I think the key is adding some evasion to the deck, as going wide with Company isn't enough sometimes. I'm going to be running a singleton Elspeth, Knight Errant in the main, but it's most likely not enough.
I'm also thinking of switching over to Bushwacker Zoo as I feel, like most of you, that it's the best shell to play some Wild Nacatls in, but I can't see that deck beating Wall of Roots decks reliably. And these are getting reaaaally popular around here, so that's a concern. I'm prepping for GP Lille, and as always in France, more than half of our player base is playing the "smart" decks, so we expect to see a lot of GBx, Midrange value decks, and Control. Everything else is marginal. Bushwacker Zoo honestly doesn't seem that great in such a metagame. Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance, Zoo keepers.
You're right, zoo isn't very well positioned for that metagame. You can do some things to improve those matchups, but you're probably better served by choosing a deck that fights the midrange & control decks more effectively. That sounds like a good metagame for tron, for example.
I, on the contrary, don't think that Elspeth is the Solution. I would say that the best option is double Domri Rade or at least one. It's a great removal and needs to be answered right away before it starts giving us insane card advantage and info.
I like the fast straight line build, But for me and my consistent win percentage. I still use my naya zookeepers. The toolbox abzan chord stuff has always been a somewhat hard match. Wall of roots does not bother me. So it blocks one and rest of the team moves in. I hate the Kiki cord crap. Why when I see them getting past 4 mana. I start holding paths. Valorous stance is also good imo.
I play UWR Control usually Kiki/Angel version and moving towards Nahiri. I struggle a bit in the Naya Zoo matchup. Any tips or sideboard cards I can bring in to help the matchup? Usually I'm losing due to the relative ineffectiveness of Bolt/Helix vs Goyfs/Knights and sideboarded Smiters.
I play UWR Control usually Kiki/Angel version and moving towards Nahiri. I struggle a bit in the Naya Zoo matchup. Any tips or sideboard cards I can bring in to help the matchup? Usually I'm losing due to the relative ineffectiveness of Bolt/Helix vs Goyfs/Knights and sideboarded Smiters.
Goyf and Knight usually requires a lot of stuff in the Grave.
If your timing is good, Relic of Progenitus hurts both dudes badly.
Just beware of your Snapcaster Mage shenanigans.
With Relic in play an attack by Goyf and Knight looks much less impressive - Snap Bolt, block one, Bolt the other.
Now crack Relic of Progenitus, leaving a 0/1 and 2/2 on the Battlefield. One dies from Bolt, the other is blocked to death.
Seems interesting.
http://mtgpulse.com/event/24871#333986
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
There's a cost though - you have to play those cards instead of other cards that are better in other matchups! Another problem: traditionally tempo decks picked up of a lot of their wins against Splinter Twin. Play a threat - especially one that doesn't die to Bolt - and hold up counters + instant speed removal was really good against them. But, well, you know. I suspect the metagame isn't where you want it to be to dust off CounterCat right now. But that's a low confidence speculation and experimentation is certainly worth it.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/429170#paper
Some of the Jund also plays 2 Huntmaster of the Fells, it is annoying too.
Yeah, Kalitas is 1 swing and done, unless you have atarka command.
Also, whats the reason most of the deck not running company anymore?
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I think it's the other way around.
Bushwhacker Zoo has a lot of trouble facing control and midrange decks (Jeskai control on top, with Bolt, Helix, Path and Snaps), since they have a lot of ways to kill our creatures and midrange also has bigger dudes. If we don't have really good hands, we lose.
Bushwhacker Zoo shines in racing non-interactive decks, like Infect, Burn, Tron, Ad Nauseam, and letting other aggros on the backfoot.
Big Zoo is meant to be good on grindy matchups. The deck is built to have ways to rebuild and keep up, while also having early pressure with Nacatl or turn 2 - 3 drop powered by dorks. Be it Company or Planeswalkers your choice of card advantage, once resolved you get ahead of control and midrange. But Big Zoo is slow to fight non-interactive decks.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
This is exactly right. Little zoo is bad against most of the midrange and control decks whether you play Bushwhacker or not. If that's your metagame and you want to play zoo, you want bigger, grindier creatures, not speed.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Jeskai can pretty much deal with everything without needing a board wipe. They even have Helix (and Snap+Helix) to get their life back. Unless you have a really good hand (and even then, if they have a good hand too and you are on the draw, things get difficult), it's a hard match.
Grixis control I don't see that often here where I play, so I can't say with certainty. They have no way to gain life, but they have discards to cut you from BTE+Whackering them and it can make your hand a lot worse.
Blue Moon I haven't played in a while, but I think they run Anger maindeck. Even then, I think this is the one control matchup that we have on our side. The lack of black/white makes their interaction with us less threatening in the early game and we can put more pressure.
That said, games are not decided on theory alone. These matchs are winnable, but I still consider them hard matches (Jeskai/Grixis) or a little favorable (Blue Moon).
I'm really not remembering other control decks at the moment and those are just my 2 cents on these 3 matchups.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
Grixis is easier than UWR for sure. Grixis, like Jund, is close to 50/50 depending on what cards they're playing, though some Grixis lists are MDing Anger of the Gods now. But yes, neither Grixis or UWR needs a sweeper. They each play tons of spot removal, can trade Snapcaster Mages with many of your creatures, and can either drop a big threat in the midgame or Nahiri to eat something else and threaten to win the game in a few turns. As a side note, these are exactly the matchups where I think Naya little zoo is better than Bushwhacker zoo. Less stuff that trades with Snapcaster and more creatures you can save from bolt with Atarka's Command helps a lot.
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
2 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple
1 Mountain
1 Forest
30 Creatures
4 Experiment One
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mutagenic Growth
1 Devastating Summons
4 Atarka's Command
15 Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
3 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Lightning Helix
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Dromoka's Command
1 Domri Rade
2 Molten Rain
Round 1 Merfolk 2-1
Round 2 Jeskai stuff 2-1 he had isochron scepter and lightning helix
Round 3 Affinty 2-1
Round 4 Affinity ID played games 2-1
I have to say I'm liking the bushwhacker builds better than naya against affinity. The best way to not let Etched Champion stonewall you is to kill them before it matters much.
ghor-clan rampager + path to exile deals with Big Blockers. It's like the old Birthing Pod decks with a slightly more inconsistent Tool in Collected Company. The Cards that gave (and gives) Small Zoo headaches is Kitchen Finks. Nonetheless, it's a bad Matchup as it has always been.
Green @ it's best
You're right, zoo isn't very well positioned for that metagame. You can do some things to improve those matchups, but you're probably better served by choosing a deck that fights the midrange & control decks more effectively. That sounds like a good metagame for tron, for example.
Goyf and Knight usually requires a lot of stuff in the Grave.
If your timing is good, Relic of Progenitus hurts both dudes badly.
Just beware of your Snapcaster Mage shenanigans.
With Relic in play an attack by Goyf and Knight looks much less impressive - Snap Bolt, block one, Bolt the other.
Now crack Relic of Progenitus, leaving a 0/1 and 2/2 on the Battlefield. One dies from Bolt, the other is blocked to death.
Green @ it's best