Yeah, it's probably not good enough for Modern, but I'd add a couple most likely if I made a Enrage Devotion deck with all 3+ toughness creatures besides mana dorks.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
So here are all my Walker decks, I have one in each color except blue, I don't count the Nissa, SoE deck since it only runs 6 Walkers. I'm posting them here in case anybody is interested and also for myself for future reference.
I'm not sure which is the best version. Any comments or suggestions welcome. Each have their own strengths and sweet synergies.
Right now I think G/W might still be the best because I had spent far more time testing and tuning it, but the others could easily have more potential.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I think the White list is the overall "best" list because I think the Ballista/Finks/Nissa +1 counter synergies are the best (Ajani really does work in that list). As you said though, this makes sense given the time we put into it. I do think it can vary with different metas though. I currently am in more of a "Interactive" place; which is why I brought up Red/Black Walkers recently. I do think you and Dos Rogue are right to focus more on a single color. As I outlined a few days ago; I moved to a "black" list (rather than a Jund list) and have been testing it. Here is where I am currently at:
I noted the discussion on the difficulties of Walker lists with Aggro and Combo...and thus far I’ve actually had the opposite hold true (at least in terms of the black walkers). The interaction has given me the ability to keep the opponents off their plan while still building my board...and the tokens and butts have made Aggro pretty beatable.
It’s possible I haven’t played enough games though (as I’ve only played about 40 thus far with this version)...if I begin to notice more issues with Aggro, Go Wide, and/or Combo; I will post it here (and us comparison to other Devotion decks).
that deck feels too heavy on the dork end of things. 4 arbor elf is always a must, but after that 4 birds of paradise usually the best pick, or anythign else that mana dorks! but after the 8th dork I feel it gets excessive. Like the sylvan caryatids and carven caryatid should all be utility slots. go full Carven over the sylvans in my opinion.
i like the list though, I feel like that is almost where my Garruk's list should be. though in those 4 random slots. I think i want to run a crazy card called reap and sow this would be utility against tron and some others, but also fetches when needed, lands that tool box match ups, its not quite primeval titan, but would do some serious work.
It's also has a much higher curve and isn't so much more disruptive than any of my Walker decks. Hornet Queen adds disruption and so does Scooze. I think Karn is perhaps just worse than a bunch of other options. You could even play LotV. If you want disruption I'd rather have Mastermind's Acquisition able to get the best hoser for the moment.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
that deck feels too heavy on the dork end of things. 4 arbor elf is always a must, but after that 4 birds of paradise usually the best pick, or anythign else that mana dorks! but after the 8th dork I feel it gets excessive. Like the sylvan caryatids and carven caryatid should all be utility slots. go full Carven over the sylvans in my opinion.
i like the list though, I feel like that is almost where my Garruk's list should be. though in those 4 random slots. I think i want to run a crazy card called reap and sow this would be utility against tron and some others, but also fetches when needed, lands that tool box match ups, its not quite primeval titan, but would do some serious work.
Wouldn’t that be awesome. I think the closest we are gonna get is Oath of Nissa :). Not that I’m complaining about Oath...
I do see what you’re saying about the Caryatids...initially I based the mana suite partially off of “Doubling Stevens” a planeswaker combo deck by Todd Stevens. He actually plays four Sylvan Caryatid on top of a full set of Elves, Sprawls, and Birds. It is vitally important that the deck get to at least four mana by turn 3 and at least five mana by turn 4 that although I’ve cut a few...I’m weary to cut them all.
You are absolutely right about dorks though. In a traditional Devotion deck, I would never advise anything more than the fourth Bird (most times I only play 3)...but traditional Devotion tends to play a slightly different curve with more 2-3 drops (with things like Pact to smooth out the situations where they would only play anything above 4-cmc to essentially win the game).
Having said this; I should 100% at least test without the Sylvan Caryatids. Theory like mine above is all well and good...but in my experience theory is 1/100th as useful as actual testing against actual opponents. I certainly will try it though (as if the deck can perform as consistently with a utility card in the place of a dork than that’s a great improvement!).
P.S. Small random side note...you don't need to have answers to every possible thing in the main board. I don't know if board wipes or necessary in the main or things like that. That is what the board is for. 2 of of 3 games will be played with sideboards...so it is important to make sure your main deck is a sold, focused game plan (while of course still having answers to most common items if you are planning on interacting with the opponent)...and things that you may otherwise struggle with can be sided in.
It's also has a much higher curve and isn't so much more disruptive than any of my Walker decks. Hornet Queen adds disruption and so does Scooze. I think Karn is perhaps just worse than a bunch of other options. You could even play LotV. If you want disruption I'd rather have Mastermind's Acquisition able to get the best hoser for the moment.
I would say they only list that would be considered comparatively as "interactive" as my list would be your black list. And the curves look pretty similar:
My List:
1 - 16
2 - 2
3 - 6
4 - 5
5 - 2
6 - 2
7+ - 3
V = 4
Your List:
1 - 15
2 - 1
3 - 7
4 - 6
5 - 2
6 - 2
7+ - 2
V = 4
These are extremely similar curves...nearly identical.
I do see how Scavenging Ooze could be considered an "interactive" card (and it is a card I like)...I'm not certain i would replace Leyline of the Void with them...but its actually quite close!) I wouldn't, however, consider Hornet Queen an "interactive" card. It can block amazingly; but that is the sum of its interaction (outside of playing other cards like fight effects...but then the fight card is the actual interactive card).
I’m a big fan of Walking Ballista. It is the star of my +1/+1 Counters Matter deck and it is essentially a 4-of in every non-Walker deck I play (and I would love to get another one or more in this 75)...I think it opened up a world of possibilities for Devotion (and expanded the type of decks we can play by giving us direct damage). On top of this, it absolutely gives us some form of creature removal in a pinch (especially in the later turns). Having said this, it is often not fast enough to be considered tried and true creature removal. I know Anthony S. already discussed this a few pages back, but I'll add a little where I can to help discuss why I don't consider it pure "creature removal" even in the lists where I play it in the current Metagame.
Baral has 3-toughness, so it requires 6-mana to kill it (and that will also "kill" your Ballista...where things like Garruk Relentless, Ob Nixilis, and Chandra will stick around after the kill)...even Vraska (which costs the same amount of mana) still also sticks around and gives you a treasure. The same is true of Gurmag Angler, Tasigur, Deaths Shadow, Master of Etherium, a single pumped Mantis Rider/Human, Wurmcoil Engine, Worldbreaker, Reality Smasher, Thought-Knot Seer, Primeval Titan, Bedlam Reveler, Deceiver Exarch, Tarmogoyf, etc (this list came from my looking at the creatures from the top 12 decks per MTGGoldfish's Modern Metagame of main-deck creatures only and does not include many from G/R Ponza). Like I said, I do see Walking Ballista as an interactive card and an amazing mana-sink....just not a great form of consistent creature removal.
So you don’t get the efficiency of a pure removal spell nor the universal power of walkers that say “destroy/exile” target creature...Ballista makes up for this in its versatility...but it does have its constraints.
I would be super interested, however, to know what "bunch of other options" would be better than Karn though. Any better card is well worth testing. I have found that a turn 3 (and in most cases a turn 4) Karn ends up winning the game 90%+ of the time. That being said, the same could be true of the card(s) that replace Karn as well (I'm always open to trying different cards/ideas). The use of Karn gets back to the theory of "Ramp Deck Purpose" and "The Best X Deck" philosophy's I've talked about in the past. I will post what I mean in the following post in spoilers (so I'm not wasting a bunch of space here).
Having said all of this...I will absolutely try some Walking ballista's in place of the Karns (and maybe drop to 3 Hydras with the Addition of Ballista's main given they are somewhat of a "nombo"). Anything that can improve the deck is well worth testing! Please do let me know of the other options you were speaking of and I will try them too.
P.S. Let me know if you try out Masrerminds Acquisition. My concern with the card was that we didn’t play Diabolic Edict before; so I’d the addition of a sideboard card in game one for 4 additional mana worth it? It may be. I can’t say without testing. If you do test it; I’d love to hear about it.
When I've played walking ballista, it never really does enough. At most, I can get 4 counters on it, but then why not play an 8-drop in that case? It feels terrible to pay 4 mana to kill a 2/2 early game too. I think you would need to play in a meta with a lot of affinity/elves/infect for it to really make a difference.
When I've played walking ballista, it never really does enough. At most, I can get 4 counters on it, but then why not play an 8-drop in that case? It feels terrible to pay 4 mana to kill a 2/2 early game too. I think you would need to play in a meta with a lot of affinity/elves/infect for it to really make a difference.
That’s kinda what I was talking about. I love the card for many reasons; but creature removal (especially outside of 1-2 toughness) is relatively low on the list. I don’t personally consider it super “interactive” until later in the game (when you start generating 10+ Mana
For a ´Walker deck, when does it become a deck with that nickname? I am a little surprised that the GR is fairly controlling. Mine version is more agressive, getting really strong synergy and speed across (4/4 satyrs for example!). Here is a rough list.
I tend to call things a walker deck when they have 10+ walkers...I have seen some “Superfriends” decks (like MtgGoldfish’s Mardu Superfriends) with only 8-9 walkers too.
Boattusk Liege and Xenagos tokens are a lot of fun together:)
To add on, when I think of a "Walker" deck, I think of Planeswalkers that can win by themselves. Xenagos and Garruk are kind of synergistic walkers that require boardstates to do anything. In that respect some might not consider that a walker deck.
But hey man, it's totally sweet, it'd all semantics anyway! You do you!
Aside from classifying it, how do you like your version? I've liked the beat down potential of a deck like that but then I wonder about the consistency. How does it feel to you?
For a ´Walker deck, when does it become a deck with that nickname? I am a little surprised that the GR is fairly controlling. Mine version is more agressive, getting really strong synergy and speed across (4/4 satyrs for example!). Here is a rough list.
On Ballista:
I find that killing a mana dork or Bob, or Pyromancer, or Thalia, or any x/1 or x/2's makes Ballista great early game. Modern mostly cares about efficient creatures that have weak stats (especially toughness) but add value, except the ones that add 0 value and are ALL about the stats; DS, Angler (mostly), Smasher (mostly).
On Karn:
I tend to think that Devotion decks want to be attacking the boardstate more than the opponents hand, which is why I don't like Karn as much as Vraska. She kills basically anything Karn would kill, and also adds tokens plus costs 1 less. LotV attacks the board and the opponents hand is is 4 less mana. Karn is amazing in Tron because thy can get it down consistently on turn 3-4 when attacking the mana base can be devastating. They also have sweepers to deal with the entire boardstate, and let Karn sit back and do his thing.
On Nicky B:
I mean, I definitely want to play Nicol Bolas in every deck so I can't blame you for playing this card... lol lots of fun. In fact, I think Nicky B is still better here. Same CMC as Karn but exiles 2 card, and can +1 to add to the board or also destroy any fauna except a fat DS.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Do you think 3 Colors of walkers can be played reliably with the following fixing:
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Abundant Growth
3-4 x Genesis Hydra (as it “fixes” in the sense that it can “Reveal/Play” a walker of any color.
_____
I promise I’ll be done bewing Walker decks soon (i will find a tuned list ). I just really want to deeply explore the space again now that another dozen walkers have been printed since I explored walkers before (and 20+ more since the OG walker combo decks...I’m old ). I don’t want to take up all the space with one idea when there are people doing amazing things with Pact Lists, Tooth and Nail lists, Primal Command lists, etc.
P.S. The Primer will be up tomorrow. My buddy is coming over to see where I’ve screwed up the formatting (he’s a computer/coding wiz). He’ll fix whatever I’ve screwed up!
that gets me brewing, cards like Ramgang and Liege weren't anywhere on my radar. that would power up some serious fire breathing abilities.
It is a powerful beatdown deck. With the right sideboard I could see the deck being viable. When I tried it I also had a 1-of Nylea, God of the Hunt (for trample when not overrunning Garruk) but now that Rhonas exists it may be a better choice. Of course, it may not be necessary.
I'm pretty sure I will be adding the red back in as I find that Chandra TOD, Chandra Flamecaller, and a 1-of Xenagos are stronger than the cards I replaced them with...
The red walkers are very good, ToD is an insane magic card. I play both Chandras in Red Devotion, but I don't like Flamecaller here quite as much, but it's also and amazing card so might still have a place.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
So...you guys know I like to brew...I've been focusing on the Walker brew...but a few random things popped into my brain during my testing:
1. +
I've done a lot of Curio builds...but this is the first time a creature allowed for an infinite combo with ANY other creature...if you can generate 11 mana, Zacama, Curio, and a Dork will create infinite mana! I've already got a build together (just because of my extensive testing with Curio in the past) but I can't test it until I've finished testing the Superfriends list (which I can't do until this weekend because my buddy and I are working on the Primer now)...
2. +
Liliana Vess fixes the issues that Primal Surge presents...(a) you can only play one copy and (b) you can't play a non-permanent way of tutoring for it (as you can't play any other non-permanents if you want max value from Surge). Liliana puts Surge on top of your deck and then you can either use any way to draw of the top or just wait a turn and then cast Primal Surge to play out your entire deck. Primal Surge is a card I get asked about A LOT; so I thought I'd point this out for anyone wanting to play the card.
Scavenging Ooze is interactive because it shuts down graveyard dependent plans, which means weakening Tarmogoyf, disrupting Angler or Tsaigur, negating Snapcaster/Rallier/Witness triggers, countering opposing Cranial Extractions, and more.
Scavenging Ooze is interactive because it shuts down graveyard dependent plans, which means weakening Tarmogoyf, disrupting Angler or Tsaigur, negating Snapcaster/Rallier/Witness triggers, countering opposing Cranial Extractions, and more.
Yes it does...assuming you have the mana (which we often do). I don’t remember saying Scavenging Ooze wasn’t interactive. I’ve had it in a majority of my recent boards (especially creature-based/heavy boards). I think it’s possibly our most versatile “graveyard interaction” card.
I hadn’t thought of the Cranial Extraction interaction. That’s awesome!
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
G/W Walker Devotion - The original Walker deck
// 15 Creature
4 Arbor Elf
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Walking Ballista
4 Kitchen Finks
// 8 Enchantment
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Oath of Nissa
// 21 Land
5 Forest
1 Gavony Township
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Temple Garden
2 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Elspeth Tirel
2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Gideon Jura
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Stony Silence
3 Gideon's Intervention
1 Chord of Calling
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Creeping Corrosion
Possible Changes:
-2 Gideon, AoZ
+1 Hornet Queen
+1 Craterhoof
Runed Halo
-
G/B Walker Devotion
// 18 Creature
4 Arbor Elf
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Walking Ballista
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Hornet Queen
// 8 Enchantment
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Utopia Sprawl
// 21 Land
5 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Vraska, Relic Seeker
2 Garruk Relentless
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blood Moon
2 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Creeping Corrosion
3 Thoughtseize
Possible Inlusions:
+1 Mastermind's Acquisition
-
G/R Walker Devotion
// 18 Creature
4 Arbor Elf
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Walking Ballista
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Hornet Queen
// 8 Enchantment
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Oath of Nissa
// 21 Land
5 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Stomping Ground
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Acidic Slime
3 Blood Moon
2 Abrade
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Crumble to Dust
I'm not sure which is the best version. Any comments or suggestions welcome. Each have their own strengths and sweet synergies.
Right now I think G/W might still be the best because I had spent far more time testing and tuning it, but the others could easily have more potential.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I think the White list is the overall "best" list because I think the Ballista/Finks/Nissa +1 counter synergies are the best (Ajani really does work in that list). As you said though, this makes sense given the time we put into it. I do think it can vary with different metas though. I currently am in more of a "Interactive" place; which is why I brought up Red/Black Walkers recently. I do think you and Dos Rogue are right to focus more on a single color. As I outlined a few days ago; I moved to a "black" list (rather than a Jund list) and have been testing it. Here is where I am currently at:
Golagari Walker Devotion V1.0
4x Arbor Elf
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Carven Caryatid
4x Genesis Hydra
Enchantment (8)
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
Planeswalker (15)
3x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Garruk Relentless
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
2x Vraska, Relic Seeker
2x Karn Liberated
1x Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh
7x Green Fetch
2x Overgrown Tomb
7x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Arch of Orazca
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Fatal Push
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Walking Ballista
I noted the discussion on the difficulties of Walker lists with Aggro and Combo...and thus far I’ve actually had the opposite hold true (at least in terms of the black walkers). The interaction has given me the ability to keep the opponents off their plan while still building my board...and the tokens and butts have made Aggro pretty beatable.
It’s possible I haven’t played enough games though (as I’ve only played about 40 thus far with this version)...if I begin to notice more issues with Aggro, Go Wide, and/or Combo; I will post it here (and us comparison to other Devotion decks).
@Curdbros
that deck feels too heavy on the dork end of things. 4 arbor elf is always a must, but after that 4 birds of paradise usually the best pick, or anythign else that mana dorks! but after the 8th dork I feel it gets excessive. Like the sylvan caryatids and carven caryatid should all be utility slots. go full Carven over the sylvans in my opinion.
those 4 spots maybe should be beast within/pyroclasm/maelstrom pulse. something that deals with what the walkers couldn't handle.
i like the list though, I feel like that is almost where my Garruk's list should be. though in those 4 random slots. I think i want to run a crazy card called reap and sow this would be utility against tron and some others, but also fetches when needed, lands that tool box match ups, its not quite primeval titan, but would do some serious work.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Wouldn’t that be awesome. I think the closest we are gonna get is Oath of Nissa :). Not that I’m complaining about Oath...
I do see what you’re saying about the Caryatids...initially I based the mana suite partially off of “Doubling Stevens” a planeswaker combo deck by Todd Stevens. He actually plays four Sylvan Caryatid on top of a full set of Elves, Sprawls, and Birds. It is vitally important that the deck get to at least four mana by turn 3 and at least five mana by turn 4 that although I’ve cut a few...I’m weary to cut them all.
You are absolutely right about dorks though. In a traditional Devotion deck, I would never advise anything more than the fourth Bird (most times I only play 3)...but traditional Devotion tends to play a slightly different curve with more 2-3 drops (with things like Pact to smooth out the situations where they would only play anything above 4-cmc to essentially win the game).
Having said this; I should 100% at least test without the Sylvan Caryatids. Theory like mine above is all well and good...but in my experience theory is 1/100th as useful as actual testing against actual opponents. I certainly will try it though (as if the deck can perform as consistently with a utility card in the place of a dork than that’s a great improvement!).
P.S. Small random side note...you don't need to have answers to every possible thing in the main board. I don't know if board wipes or necessary in the main or things like that. That is what the board is for. 2 of of 3 games will be played with sideboards...so it is important to make sure your main deck is a sold, focused game plan (while of course still having answers to most common items if you are planning on interacting with the opponent)...and things that you may otherwise struggle with can be sided in.
I would say they only list that would be considered comparatively as "interactive" as my list would be your black list. And the curves look pretty similar:
My List:
1 - 16
2 - 2
3 - 6
4 - 5
5 - 2
6 - 2
7+ - 3
V = 4
Your List:
1 - 15
2 - 1
3 - 7
4 - 6
5 - 2
6 - 2
7+ - 2
V = 4
These are extremely similar curves...nearly identical.
I do see how Scavenging Ooze could be considered an "interactive" card (and it is a card I like)...I'm not certain i would replace Leyline of the Void with them...but its actually quite close!) I wouldn't, however, consider Hornet Queen an "interactive" card. It can block amazingly; but that is the sum of its interaction (outside of playing other cards like fight effects...but then the fight card is the actual interactive card).
I’m a big fan of Walking Ballista. It is the star of my +1/+1 Counters Matter deck and it is essentially a 4-of in every non-Walker deck I play (and I would love to get another one or more in this 75)...I think it opened up a world of possibilities for Devotion (and expanded the type of decks we can play by giving us direct damage). On top of this, it absolutely gives us some form of creature removal in a pinch (especially in the later turns). Having said this, it is often not fast enough to be considered tried and true creature removal. I know Anthony S. already discussed this a few pages back, but I'll add a little where I can to help discuss why I don't consider it pure "creature removal" even in the lists where I play it in the current Metagame.
Baral has 3-toughness, so it requires 6-mana to kill it (and that will also "kill" your Ballista...where things like Garruk Relentless, Ob Nixilis, and Chandra will stick around after the kill)...even Vraska (which costs the same amount of mana) still also sticks around and gives you a treasure. The same is true of Gurmag Angler, Tasigur, Deaths Shadow, Master of Etherium, a single pumped Mantis Rider/Human, Wurmcoil Engine, Worldbreaker, Reality Smasher, Thought-Knot Seer, Primeval Titan, Bedlam Reveler, Deceiver Exarch, Tarmogoyf, etc (this list came from my looking at the creatures from the top 12 decks per MTGGoldfish's Modern Metagame of main-deck creatures only and does not include many from G/R Ponza). Like I said, I do see Walking Ballista as an interactive card and an amazing mana-sink....just not a great form of consistent creature removal.
So you don’t get the efficiency of a pure removal spell nor the universal power of walkers that say “destroy/exile” target creature...Ballista makes up for this in its versatility...but it does have its constraints.
I would be super interested, however, to know what "bunch of other options" would be better than Karn though. Any better card is well worth testing. I have found that a turn 3 (and in most cases a turn 4) Karn ends up winning the game 90%+ of the time. That being said, the same could be true of the card(s) that replace Karn as well (I'm always open to trying different cards/ideas). The use of Karn gets back to the theory of "Ramp Deck Purpose" and "The Best X Deck" philosophy's I've talked about in the past. I will post what I mean in the following post in spoilers (so I'm not wasting a bunch of space here).
Having said all of this...I will absolutely try some Walking ballista's in place of the Karns (and maybe drop to 3 Hydras with the Addition of Ballista's main given they are somewhat of a "nombo"). Anything that can improve the deck is well worth testing! Please do let me know of the other options you were speaking of and I will try them too.
P.S. Let me know if you try out Masrerminds Acquisition. My concern with the card was that we didn’t play Diabolic Edict before; so I’d the addition of a sideboard card in game one for 4 additional mana worth it? It may be. I can’t say without testing. If you do test it; I’d love to hear about it.
That’s kinda what I was talking about. I love the card for many reasons; but creature removal (especially outside of 1-2 toughness) is relatively low on the list. I don’t personally consider it super “interactive” until later in the game (when you start generating 10+ Mana
I tend to call things a walker deck when they have 10+ walkers...I have seen some “Superfriends” decks (like MtgGoldfish’s Mardu Superfriends) with only 8-9 walkers too.
Boattusk Liege and Xenagos tokens are a lot of fun together:)
But hey man, it's totally sweet, it'd all semantics anyway! You do you!
Aside from classifying it, how do you like your version? I've liked the beat down potential of a deck like that but then I wonder about the consistency. How does it feel to you?
Looks fun, 4/4 hasty tokens is pretty good!
On Ballista:
I find that killing a mana dork or Bob, or Pyromancer, or Thalia, or any x/1 or x/2's makes Ballista great early game. Modern mostly cares about efficient creatures that have weak stats (especially toughness) but add value, except the ones that add 0 value and are ALL about the stats; DS, Angler (mostly), Smasher (mostly).
On Karn:
I tend to think that Devotion decks want to be attacking the boardstate more than the opponents hand, which is why I don't like Karn as much as Vraska. She kills basically anything Karn would kill, and also adds tokens plus costs 1 less. LotV attacks the board and the opponents hand is is 4 less mana. Karn is amazing in Tron because thy can get it down consistently on turn 3-4 when attacking the mana base can be devastating. They also have sweepers to deal with the entire boardstate, and let Karn sit back and do his thing.
On Nicky B:
I mean, I definitely want to play Nicol Bolas in every deck so I can't blame you for playing this card... lol lots of fun. In fact, I think Nicky B is still better here. Same CMC as Karn but exiles 2 card, and can +1 to add to the board or also destroy any fauna except a fat DS.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Do you think 3 Colors of walkers can be played reliably with the following fixing:
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Abundant Growth
3-4 x Genesis Hydra (as it “fixes” in the sense that it can “Reveal/Play” a walker of any color.
_____
I promise I’ll be done bewing Walker decks soon (i will find a tuned list ). I just really want to deeply explore the space again now that another dozen walkers have been printed since I explored walkers before (and 20+ more since the OG walker combo decks...I’m old ). I don’t want to take up all the space with one idea when there are people doing amazing things with Pact Lists, Tooth and Nail lists, Primal Command lists, etc.
P.S. The Primer will be up tomorrow. My buddy is coming over to see where I’ve screwed up the formatting (he’s a computer/coding wiz). He’ll fix whatever I’ve screwed up!
It is a powerful beatdown deck. With the right sideboard I could see the deck being viable. When I tried it I also had a 1-of Nylea, God of the Hunt (for trample when not overrunning Garruk) but now that Rhonas exists it may be a better choice. Of course, it may not be necessary.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
So...you guys know I like to brew...I've been focusing on the Walker brew...but a few random things popped into my brain during my testing:
1. +
I've done a lot of Curio builds...but this is the first time a creature allowed for an infinite combo with ANY other creature...if you can generate 11 mana, Zacama, Curio, and a Dork will create infinite mana! I've already got a build together (just because of my extensive testing with Curio in the past) but I can't test it until I've finished testing the Superfriends list (which I can't do until this weekend because my buddy and I are working on the Primer now)...
2. +
Liliana Vess fixes the issues that Primal Surge presents...(a) you can only play one copy and (b) you can't play a non-permanent way of tutoring for it (as you can't play any other non-permanents if you want max value from Surge). Liliana puts Surge on top of your deck and then you can either use any way to draw of the top or just wait a turn and then cast Primal Surge to play out your entire deck. Primal Surge is a card I get asked about A LOT; so I thought I'd point this out for anyone wanting to play the card.
Scavenging Ooze is interactive because it shuts down graveyard dependent plans, which means weakening Tarmogoyf, disrupting Angler or Tsaigur, negating Snapcaster/Rallier/Witness triggers, countering opposing Cranial Extractions, and more.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Yes it does...assuming you have the mana (which we often do). I don’t remember saying Scavenging Ooze wasn’t interactive. I’ve had it in a majority of my recent boards (especially creature-based/heavy boards). I think it’s possibly our most versatile “graveyard interaction” card.
I hadn’t thought of the Cranial Extraction interaction. That’s awesome!