Terastadon may actually be worth a try in my Garruk Green deck. Have you tried it Rendroc? I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on it given the fact we are the only “Garruk Green” players as far as I know....
Frost Titan is a really cool idea for the Simic list. I’ll have to try that out.
I thought about trying a Gifts list as well; but between Garruk Green and Simic Devotion (and just life ) I think I’m maxed out on decks I can test/tune. I love em both though. They play quite differently; but i think that’s why I like them both.
I would like to play/time a Primal Command / Devoted Druid list as well (as I think themat could be a very competitive take on Devotion) and May try that if I feel there is nothing else to tune on one of the other lists.
That is what is SOOO awesome about Devotion. There are so many ways to play it!
I used to play nasty terasty and it's one of the better options, one of the cards that almost made the cut. I don't want many 8 drops though, and currently Craterhoof at 8-mana basically just wins the game. If Ensnaring Bridge decks become more popular it could warrant mwinboard Terasty though.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
@PouleMan
You think Courser is good with which Kiora? I suppose it's good with both Kiora's -2 abilities.
@CurdBros
You've been including Karn in many of your lists, I'm surprised you are not including it in your land denial deck, since it fits the gameplan.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
@Poule
Well in a Breach Valakut deck I think Primus is actually better, Breach plus Primus seems much better than Dramatic Entrance plus Terastodon.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
First time I post here. I've been playing a green devotion deck occasionally for the past year. Just tested your last Simic list @CurdBros.
I play-tesed it against BlueMoon, UW Control, Jeskai Midrange this week-end.
First, I believe it is such a good and robust list. The added interactions feel good and allow for answers to be found (through Kiora or Nissa).
1) My main comment would be that playing so many defenders put me on several time in positions where I had on the battlefield 5 defenders, but no threat. As with Wistful Selkie and Voyaging Satyr I sometimes won by just using -4 ability from Garruk.
Also Coiling Oracle seems good (maybe not enough?)
Have you encountered the same difficulty?
2) I was also curious about the Cloudstone Curio as I felt it was always a bit off / to slow to generate a real advantage.
3) Furthermore I was thinking of putting back a copy or two of Primal Command what would you cut for it? Do you believe it's a nice idea?
4) Finally Courser of Kruphix seems so good with Kiora -2 and Nissa 0 hability. Have you tried it?
Thanks guys,
Have a nice day
Thanks for playing the deck and for your thoughtful post. I think you make some great points. I'll try to address each separately:
1. I think it is well worth trying Courser of Kruphix and Voyaging Satyr in the current Defender slots. Courser is a little "slower"; but so is the deck :. Voyaging Satyr can lead to VERY broken turns with Nykthos as well. I think you could absolutely play the deck with these two in the two slots.
I'm not entirely certain Wistful Selkie and Voyaging Satyr would be the best choice simply because it makes the entire board have 1-2 toughgness (and makes cards like Anger, Electrolyze, etc. much better against us and doesn't allow us to block against aggro decks). Courser does help resolve this (although 4 toughness is a little worse in the meta compared to 5). I've also liked the high-toughness cards with the use of Beast Within; but Courser could still fill that function (I would just worry they would kill it and I'd having nothing left to profitably block with)...having said this, we don't HAVE to play Beast Within either.
I do think I likely should shave one of the Overgrown Battlements (especially with the 1-of bird). We only need so much ramp. I will, however, also try to test with Courser and Voyaging Satyr when possible.
Please, please, please also test with your changes in mind. I would LOVE to hear how they play.
2. I have been recently playing with a 1-of Primal Command and may go to two copies. As you stated; it does follow the play patterns of this deck extremely well...and we all know Command is a powerhouse. I think Command likely should be in the main. I will test with two copies and see how it goes! There absolutely will be at least 2 in the 75 (more likely 3) but I just have to decide if they are in the first 60...
3. In terms of Cloudstone Curio it likely isn't 100% necessary. It does give us the "oops" I win games and a good way to simply end the game when "going off" or if you can't get the bigger cards (this could be alleviated with Command). You are likely right, however, that in the scenarios where I win with Curio (and our go on "loops" and draw tons of cards, etc...I may be able to win with a different cards in the slot. I will have to test a few other cards in the slot (likely simply play Command in the slot).
I do love the Curio combo...but it may be more of a sideboard option (or even a full "build around me" deck for it).
I am testing tonight and will try a few of these thoughts out. Please do feel free to change/improve the deck as you see fit as asll and let me know how it goes! The more people tuning the deck the better!
______
@Rendroc
I haven't been playing Karn as much simply because I tend to play it with Genesis Hydra (as it gives me a way to dig to it). Acidic Slime tends to do 75% of what I used Karn for...and Ugin finishes the game...and given Kiora (and Command) only "fetching" creatures; they seemed like a better fit in the current itteration of the deck. Karn is unreal though. If I played it; I would just play it as a 2-of in this build. The deck does need one more "big card" as it currently is; but I have liked Ugin quite a bit.
So o tested the land denial deck, although I tested my own version, and I find it to be too slow and mana intensive. I was running a lot of 5 drops with multiple Acidic Slimes and multiple Primal Commands. 5 mana is a lot in Modern. Unfortunately there no Goblin Settler in Modern.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Yeah, 5-mana is a bit rough. I consider 4-5 this intermediate level which is usually easy, but depends a lot on the disruption faced. Mana denial needs to be fast however, hence the Ponza deck designs.
As for there being no Goblin Settler, well, there is Avalanche Riders, which was Timeshifted.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
If it dies, it can come back to kill another land. No red card really adds devotion, so when comparing, that criteria seems irrelavant.
Anyway, to me it seems that so many version of the deck work decently because (green) devotion simply tries to go bigger as the opponent. Sometimes that works out, sometimes it doesn't. Different builds like Simic, Garruk, Wave or whatever flavor provides slighty different angles but the core remains the same.
Step 1; power up your mana.
Step 2; do something to big to handle
I firmly believe that this two step program facilitates a boatload of devotion decks, all tier 2.5 and it doesn't even stop at Green. White, Black, Blue and even Red have their own viable versions. It also exposes the problem of the deck. If one step does not work due to discard, counter, removal or bad draws, the deck is not working goed enough and therefore loses.
What we need more then anything is something that fits both steps but also works with them, makes step 1 good enough on it's own in some games (like the Overrun plan sometimes does). I dunno, maybe Gavony Township or something? That card has filled that role for multiple decks in the past.
This is a well thought out point that I've made in the past (however you have made the point very concisely). My general conclusion has been mana-sinks. In particular (if possible) green-mana sinks...in reality however, there are multiple ways to play the archetype.
We have a few issues/constraints when building with Devotion:
1. Devotion (in green at least) is a "ramp" mechanic (as the only card we currently use to take advantage of devotion is Nykthos, Shrine of Nyx). Until we can change this (with the utilization of cards like Reverent Hunter, Karematra's Acolyte, etc.) we will be constrained by the "big mana" issue...that is, "what is the point of making so much mana unless you play high-CMC, powerful cards to take advantage of this?"
2. Given the above, unlike things like Tron (that ramp simply by playing their land drops); we actually have to build a board of green parmanents to build theh devotion sufficient to take advantage of the mechanic. This is a BIG constraint. It forces us to play a permanent-heavy, mostly mono-green, deck that has ample 1-3 drops that quickly can build devotion.
3. Once we have build the devotion (and have Nykthos); we then need some way to utilize this mana. It can be very frustrating to have access to 20+ mana and no way to win the game outright.
These constraints are very real. Our options are:
1. Play a straight-forward "ramp" deck (where we play 1,2,3,4,5,7 & 8 drops - This can be smoothed with the use of things like Summoner's Pact but you will still run into the "drawing the wrong half" problem from time to time and you will still run into the "discard/removal takes away one half" problem.
2. Play a lot of card draw and "overwhelm" (i.e. - utilize the excess mana to cast a volume of spells rather than a few really large ones) - I have a tendancy to do this with my early itterations of builds. The issue with this style of deck is that you can often "spin your wheels" and play a million cards without actually killing the opponent. Garruk's overrun is great if you can get there...but once the opponent is aware of this they can simply keep Garruk from 4 loyalty. Also, boardwipes become more effective against this plan.
3. Play Mana Sinks - This is my preferred game plan as of late. There are nuermous cards that scale (i.e. are not bad to cast early but are much stronger later as you have more mana). My favorites tend to be Duskwatch Recruiter, Kessig Wolf Run, and of course Walking Ballista. There are absolutely downsides to this. A Walking Balista for 7 is awesome...but when you could cast an Emrakul in its place you may wanna kick yourself
4. Play a Combo that Green Devotion May Aid - I do think the Devoted Druid combo is still something we should be examining more (as we have access to cards like Chord of Calling and Primal Command which are mana-intensive (which is OK in a Devotion deck) means of tutoring for both peices of the combo AS WELL AS other cards we can utilize well outside of the combo (in Duskwatch Recruiter, Walking Ballista, etc.). I'm not sure this style of devotion has been fully vetted. I do think Devotion is a good "core" for numerous combos (given our ability to access mana and Green's new ability to dig and tutor for things (via Oath, Chord, Pact, Evolution, Company, and even Gifts.)
The simple truth is that we have to choose what we want our main weakness to be OUTSIDE of the constraints already placed on us by utilizing Nykthos as our only Devotion-rewarding card. This is why in the past I've tried to work with the other Devotion-rewarding cards. Hopefully some day we will get a Grey Merchant of Asphodel-esq card in Green...but until that time we just have to choose what style of devotion deck best fits the meta we are in.
Also, there may be other ways to play Devotion that I simply haven't seen or tried. I can't claim to know everything there is to know about Devotion...I have no doubt there are things I don't know about Devotion...that's the beauty of this community. We get to figure it out together! I for one think it's awesome that the deck isn't Tier-1 yet...that means we get to be the community that makes it Tier 1
for wild pair theres another guy who can be free played off wild pair.
memnite seems like a boring creature to play, but when you start theory crafting I guess there are possibilities. you linking Reverent Hunter was one. maul splicer there may be more options than i thought, I'll keep looking through search inquiries to see if any other 1/1 combos jump out at me.
even if we don't use memnite, we still have a lot of 1/1s running around the deck, casting any of them fetches Trostani's Summoner. hard casting summoner seems lame, but even without wild pair she is still playable, and good chance for over run to be achieved.
the 1/1 space seems to tool box for a lot of things as well.
A fun 1/1 I found was Prime Speaker Zegana...obviously needs other creatures...but it is certainly a fun idea
I'm sure there are dozens of fun interactions with Wild Pair...Just the two days I played it was a blast.
my only thing with it is I wanna be able to do something with it once I hit 6 mana. at 6 mana we go crazy with double primeval titan with wild pair or something else.
I see a lot of good interactions with Wild Pair as cheating cards based on Power/Toughness rather than CMC is immensely powerful, but I don't see how we would reliably draw into it. I'd see this card as a 2-of at most as 6 mana is a fair investment where a lot of the top end creatures sit.
The only ways I see it coming into play easily is via Hydra X => 6 or Genesis Wave X >= 6. My pick would be Genesis Hydra so we at least get the cast trigger and then the possibility to fetch another creature when Hydra resolves.
I see a lot of good interactions with Wild Pair as cheating cards based on Power/Toughness rather than CMC is immensely powerful, but I don't see how we would reliably draw into it. I'd see this card as a 2-of at most as 6 mana is a fair investment where a lot of the top end creatures sit.
The only ways I see it coming into play easily is via Hydra X => 6 or Genesis Wave X >= 6. My pick would be Genesis Hydra so we at least get the cast trigger and then the possibility to fetch another creature when Hydra resolves.
That was where my initial idea came from...I thought how fun it would be to cast a Genesis Hydra for X=7 and then hit a Wild Pair and grab Grisolbrand (or for 15 and hit Emrakul, etc.) Just was a fun idea. There is a fun deck there. I honestly can't say whether it could be made competitive...but the idea is certainly there and is powerful.
1. Play a straight-forward "ramp" deck (where we play 1,2,3,4,5,7 & 8 drops - This can be smoothed with the use of things like Summoner's Pact but you will still run into the "drawing the wrong half" problem from time to time and you will still run into the "discard/removal takes away one half" problem.
2. Play a lot of card draw and "overwhelm" (i.e. - utilize the excess mana to cast a volume of spells rather than a few really large ones) - I have a tendancy to do this with my early itterations of builds. The issue with this style of deck is that you can often "spin your wheels" and play a million cards without actually killing the opponent. Garruk's overrun is great if you can get there...but once the opponent is aware of this they can simply keep Garruk from 4 loyalty. Also, boardwipes become more effective against this plan.
3. Play Mana Sinks - This is my preferred game plan as of late. There are nuermous cards that scale (i.e. are not bad to cast early but are much stronger later as you have more mana). My favorites tend to be Duskwatch Recruiter, Kessig Wolf Run, and of course Walking Ballista. There are absolutely downsides to this. A Walking Balista for 7 is awesome...but when you could cast an Emrakul in its place you may wanna kick yourself
4. Play a Combo that Green Devotion May Aid - I do think the Devoted Druid combo is still something we should be examining more (as we have access to cards like Chord of Calling and Primal Command which are mana-intensive (which is OK in a Devotion deck) means of tutoring for both peices of the combo AS WELL AS other cards we can utilize well outside of the combo (in Duskwatch Recruiter, Walking Ballista, etc.). I'm not sure this style of devotion has been fully vetted. I do think Devotion is a good "core" for numerous combos (given our ability to access mana and Green's new ability to dig and tutor for things (via Oath, Chord, Pact, Evolution, Company, and even Gifts.)
The simple truth is that we have to choose what we want our main weakness to be OUTSIDE of the constraints already placed on us by utilizing Nykthos as our only Devotion-rewarding card. This is why in the past I've tried to work with the other Devotion-rewarding cards. Hopefully some day we will get a Grey Merchant of Asphodel-esq card in Green...but until that time we just have to choose what style of devotion deck best fits the meta we are in.
Also, there may be other ways to play Devotion that I simply haven't seen or tried. I can't claim to know everything there is to know about Devotion...I have no doubt there are things I don't know about Devotion...that's the beauty of this community. We get to figure it out together! I for one think it's awesome that the deck isn't Tier-1 yet...that means we get to be the community that makes it Tier 1
About your Challenge: Khalni Hydra and Sylvan Scrying into Nykthos. And of course ManaSinks and G Symbols as much as you can get. At best, both effects at the same time like Unyaro Bees. Maybe a PayOff with Primalcrux or Waker of the Wilds and another fun utiliy Land or Man Land.
uh uh ...aaaaand call it extrem Green Devotion
Edit:
It's very close to endling these Year and you have played a lot Devotion Decks, how about a ranking which Devotion Decks have you impressed the most?
____________
Vigor
Have someone ever consider this creature?!? In a creature build very interesting or if you ever consider a +1/+1 Counetr Devotion Deck.
1. Play a straight-forward "ramp" deck (where we play 1,2,3,4,5,7 & 8 drops - This can be smoothed with the use of things like Summoner's Pact but you will still run into the "drawing the wrong half" problem from time to time and you will still run into the "discard/removal takes away one half" problem.
2. Play a lot of card draw and "overwhelm" (i.e. - utilize the excess mana to cast a volume of spells rather than a few really large ones) - I have a tendancy to do this with my early itterations of builds. The issue with this style of deck is that you can often "spin your wheels" and play a million cards without actually killing the opponent. Garruk's overrun is great if you can get there...but once the opponent is aware of this they can simply keep Garruk from 4 loyalty. Also, boardwipes become more effective against this plan.
3. Play Mana Sinks - This is my preferred game plan as of late. There are nuermous cards that scale (i.e. are not bad to cast early but are much stronger later as you have more mana). My favorites tend to be Duskwatch Recruiter, Kessig Wolf Run, and of course Walking Ballista. There are absolutely downsides to this. A Walking Balista for 7 is awesome...but when you could cast an Emrakul in its place you may wanna kick yourself
4. Play a Combo that Green Devotion May Aid - I do think the Devoted Druid combo is still something we should be examining more (as we have access to cards like Chord of Calling and Primal Command which are mana-intensive (which is OK in a Devotion deck) means of tutoring for both peices of the combo AS WELL AS other cards we can utilize well outside of the combo (in Duskwatch Recruiter, Walking Ballista, etc.). I'm not sure this style of devotion has been fully vetted. I do think Devotion is a good "core" for numerous combos (given our ability to access mana and Green's new ability to dig and tutor for things (via Oath, Chord, Pact, Evolution, Company, and even Gifts.)
The simple truth is that we have to choose what we want our main weakness to be OUTSIDE of the constraints already placed on us by utilizing Nykthos as our only Devotion-rewarding card. This is why in the past I've tried to work with the other Devotion-rewarding cards. Hopefully some day we will get a Grey Merchant of Asphodel-esq card in Green...but until that time we just have to choose what style of devotion deck best fits the meta we are in.
Also, there may be other ways to play Devotion that I simply haven't seen or tried. I can't claim to know everything there is to know about Devotion...I have no doubt there are things I don't know about Devotion...that's the beauty of this community. We get to figure it out together! I for one think it's awesome that the deck isn't Tier-1 yet...that means we get to be the community that makes it Tier 1
About your Challenge: Khalni Hydra and Sylvan Scrying into Nykthos. And of course ManaSinks and G Symbols as much as you can get. At best, both effects at the same time like Unyaro Bees. Maybe a PayOff with Primalcrux or Waker of the Wilds and another fun utiliy Land or Man Land.
uh uh ...aaaaand call it extrem Green Devotion
Edit:
It's very close to endling these Year and you have played a lot Devotion Decks, how about a ranking which Devotion Decks have you impressed the most?
____________
Vigor
Have someone ever consider this creature?!? In a creature build very interesting or if you ever consider a +1/+1 Counetr Devotion Deck.
I thought an interesting interaction with Vigor would be with cards like Hardened Scales and Walking Ballista. Remove a counter, ping your Ballista, add two counters...rinse, repeat for what I believe is infinite counters. I haven't tried it yet...but it is one of the idea's I've written down.
@Just_Me I've actually found the Simic list from @CudBros (with some minor twists) to be much more resilient than other version of the deck.
It is in fact in general less explosive than other versions such as plain green Garruk or xenagos-emrakul combo, but allows you to come back much more easily from discard and removals ( Kiora, Master of the Depths, Nissa, Steward of Elements, Courser of Kruphix and Duskwatch Recruiter are amazing solution finder -- and I played against Full control or Midrange control decks).
I'll try some tuning on the Simic list and come back to you with some play test against different types of Tier 1, 2 decks (probably in January).
PS: The Wild Pair idea looks fun
I agree that the Simic version is more resilient and more interactive than other versions of Devotion. The cost is a little bit of explosiveness (you aren't going to have the turn 3 BTE into Craterhoof turns that just win the game outright and often may require an additional turn to finish the game after you've put yourself in the winning position). You can still have the crazy turns of"
- Turn One -
1. Play Arbor Elf
- Turn Two -
1. Play Utopia Sprawl
2. Play Kiora (untapping Elf and enchanted Forest)
3. Play Garruk (untapping both lands)
4. Play 3-mana worth of spells
...which can then lead to 12+ mana on turn 3....but there will always be explosive "God Hands" in devotion decks. The "average" game, however, will be less explosive in the Simic Version (as the Pact versions are set up perfectly for powerful, linear turns...which is not a bad thing by any means).
I would love to see your tweaks! I do think the deck has room for improvement before it hits the best balance. Please do let me know the changes you make and how they play.
1. I think it is well worth trying Courser of Kruphix and Voyaging Satyr in the current Defender slots. Courser is a little "slower"; but so is the deck :. Voyaging Satyr can lead to VERY broken turns with Nykthos as well. I think you could absolutely play the deck with these two in the two slots.
In case there are Simic Colours in Defender Devotion. I would prefer Kiora's Follower. He can untap Nykthos orOvergrown Battlement to be more broken
______________________
@CurdBros
I mean the first Page. From time to time here are really great text passages that would help new Devotion Players/Deckbuilders a lot.
______________________
At the moment i'm brewing at a Gifts Devotion List, too. A good reason to make public notes
i think this Deck is pretty bad! The smallest Devotion Core that is possible and after that only a lot Garruks that he can find. Ok, all Garruks make some good Tokens, but that isn't a WinCondition imho.
Frost Titan is a really cool idea for the Simic list. I’ll have to try that out.
I thought about trying a Gifts list as well; but between Garruk Green and Simic Devotion (and just life
I would like to play/time a Primal Command / Devoted Druid list as well (as I think themat could be a very competitive take on Devotion) and May try that if I feel there is nothing else to tune on one of the other lists.
That is what is SOOO awesome about Devotion. There are so many ways to play it!
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
You think Courser is good with which Kiora? I suppose it's good with both Kiora's -2 abilities.
@CurdBros
You've been including Karn in many of your lists, I'm surprised you are not including it in your land denial deck, since it fits the gameplan.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Well in a Breach Valakut deck I think Primus is actually better, Breach plus Primus seems much better than Dramatic Entrance plus Terastodon.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Thanks for playing the deck and for your thoughtful post. I think you make some great points. I'll try to address each separately:
1. I think it is well worth trying Courser of Kruphix and Voyaging Satyr in the current Defender slots. Courser is a little "slower"; but so is the deck :. Voyaging Satyr can lead to VERY broken turns with Nykthos as well. I think you could absolutely play the deck with these two in the two slots.
I'm not entirely certain Wistful Selkie and Voyaging Satyr would be the best choice simply because it makes the entire board have 1-2 toughgness (and makes cards like Anger, Electrolyze, etc. much better against us and doesn't allow us to block against aggro decks). Courser does help resolve this (although 4 toughness is a little worse in the meta compared to 5). I've also liked the high-toughness cards with the use of Beast Within; but Courser could still fill that function (I would just worry they would kill it and I'd having nothing left to profitably block with)...having said this, we don't HAVE to play Beast Within either.
I do think I likely should shave one of the Overgrown Battlements (especially with the 1-of bird). We only need so much ramp. I will, however, also try to test with Courser and Voyaging Satyr when possible.
Please, please, please also test with your changes in mind. I would LOVE to hear how they play.
2. I have been recently playing with a 1-of Primal Command and may go to two copies. As you stated; it does follow the play patterns of this deck extremely well...and we all know Command is a powerhouse. I think Command likely should be in the main. I will test with two copies and see how it goes! There absolutely will be at least 2 in the 75 (more likely 3) but I just have to decide if they are in the first 60...
3. In terms of Cloudstone Curio it likely isn't 100% necessary. It does give us the "oops" I win games and a good way to simply end the game when "going off" or if you can't get the bigger cards (this could be alleviated with Command). You are likely right, however, that in the scenarios where I win with Curio (and our go on "loops" and draw tons of cards, etc...I may be able to win with a different cards in the slot. I will have to test a few other cards in the slot (likely simply play Command in the slot).
I do love the Curio combo...but it may be more of a sideboard option (or even a full "build around me" deck for it).
I am testing tonight and will try a few of these thoughts out. Please do feel free to change/improve the deck as you see fit as asll and let me know how it goes! The more people tuning the deck the better!
______
@Rendroc
I haven't been playing Karn as much simply because I tend to play it with Genesis Hydra (as it gives me a way to dig to it). Acidic Slime tends to do 75% of what I used Karn for...and Ugin finishes the game...and given Kiora (and Command) only "fetching" creatures; they seemed like a better fit in the current itteration of the deck. Karn is unreal though. If I played it; I would just play it as a 2-of in this build. The deck does need one more "big card" as it currently is; but I have liked Ugin quite a bit.
______
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
As for there being no Goblin Settler, well, there is Avalanche Riders, which was Timeshifted.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
This is a well thought out point that I've made in the past (however you have made the point very concisely). My general conclusion has been mana-sinks. In particular (if possible) green-mana sinks...in reality however, there are multiple ways to play the archetype.
We have a few issues/constraints when building with Devotion:
1. Devotion (in green at least) is a "ramp" mechanic (as the only card we currently use to take advantage of devotion is Nykthos, Shrine of Nyx). Until we can change this (with the utilization of cards like Reverent Hunter, Karematra's Acolyte, etc.) we will be constrained by the "big mana" issue...that is, "what is the point of making so much mana unless you play high-CMC, powerful cards to take advantage of this?"
2. Given the above, unlike things like Tron (that ramp simply by playing their land drops); we actually have to build a board of green parmanents to build theh devotion sufficient to take advantage of the mechanic. This is a BIG constraint. It forces us to play a permanent-heavy, mostly mono-green, deck that has ample 1-3 drops that quickly can build devotion.
3. Once we have build the devotion (and have Nykthos); we then need some way to utilize this mana. It can be very frustrating to have access to 20+ mana and no way to win the game outright.
These constraints are very real. Our options are:
1. Play a straight-forward "ramp" deck (where we play 1,2,3,4,5,7 & 8 drops - This can be smoothed with the use of things like Summoner's Pact but you will still run into the "drawing the wrong half" problem from time to time and you will still run into the "discard/removal takes away one half" problem.
2. Play a lot of card draw and "overwhelm" (i.e. - utilize the excess mana to cast a volume of spells rather than a few really large ones) - I have a tendancy to do this with my early itterations of builds. The issue with this style of deck is that you can often "spin your wheels" and play a million cards without actually killing the opponent. Garruk's overrun is great if you can get there...but once the opponent is aware of this they can simply keep Garruk from 4 loyalty. Also, boardwipes become more effective against this plan.
3. Play Mana Sinks - This is my preferred game plan as of late. There are nuermous cards that scale (i.e. are not bad to cast early but are much stronger later as you have more mana). My favorites tend to be Duskwatch Recruiter, Kessig Wolf Run, and of course Walking Ballista. There are absolutely downsides to this. A Walking Balista for 7 is awesome...but when you could cast an Emrakul in its place you may wanna kick yourself
4. Play a Combo that Green Devotion May Aid - I do think the Devoted Druid combo is still something we should be examining more (as we have access to cards like Chord of Calling and Primal Command which are mana-intensive (which is OK in a Devotion deck) means of tutoring for both peices of the combo AS WELL AS other cards we can utilize well outside of the combo (in Duskwatch Recruiter, Walking Ballista, etc.). I'm not sure this style of devotion has been fully vetted. I do think Devotion is a good "core" for numerous combos (given our ability to access mana and Green's new ability to dig and tutor for things (via Oath, Chord, Pact, Evolution, Company, and even Gifts.)
The simple truth is that we have to choose what we want our main weakness to be OUTSIDE of the constraints already placed on us by utilizing Nykthos as our only Devotion-rewarding card. This is why in the past I've tried to work with the other Devotion-rewarding cards. Hopefully some day we will get a Grey Merchant of Asphodel-esq card in Green...but until that time we just have to choose what style of devotion deck best fits the meta we are in.
Also, there may be other ways to play Devotion that I simply haven't seen or tried. I can't claim to know everything there is to know about Devotion...I have no doubt there are things I don't know about Devotion...that's the beauty of this community. We get to figure it out together! I for one think it's awesome that the deck isn't Tier-1 yet...that means we get to be the community that makes it Tier 1
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I'm going to try my hardest to build a Reverent Hunter, Karametra's Acolyte, or Nylea's Disciple deck...wish me luck
memnite seems like a boring creature to play, but when you start theory crafting I guess there are possibilities. you linking Reverent Hunter was one.
maul splicer there may be more options than i thought, I'll keep looking through search inquiries to see if any other 1/1 combos jump out at me.
Triskelavus
Trostani's Summoner
Triskelion
build up to wild pair using garruk wildspeaker to ramp into that 6cc. then drop the memnite, to get Trostani's Summoner. If all goes well and Garruk's at 4 thats a lethal over run with summoner and her tokens.
even if we don't use memnite, we still have a lot of 1/1s running around the deck, casting any of them fetches Trostani's Summoner. hard casting summoner seems lame, but even without wild pair she is still playable, and good chance for over run to be achieved.
the 1/1 space seems to tool box for a lot of things as well.
casting a bigger one gets you something bigger, 2/2 for hornet queen/acidic slime
I'm sure there are dozens of fun interactions with Wild Pair...Just the two days I played it was a blast.
my only thing with it is I wanna be able to do something with it once I hit 6 mana. at 6 mana we go crazy with double primeval titan with wild pair or something else.
The only ways I see it coming into play easily is via Hydra X => 6 or Genesis Wave X >= 6. My pick would be Genesis Hydra so we at least get the cast trigger and then the possibility to fetch another creature when Hydra resolves.
That was where my initial idea came from...I thought how fun it would be to cast a Genesis Hydra for X=7 and then hit a Wild Pair and grab Grisolbrand (or for 15 and hit Emrakul, etc.) Just was a fun idea. There is a fun deck there. I honestly can't say whether it could be made competitive...but the idea is certainly there and is powerful.
This on the first Site Primer!
About your Challenge:
Khalni Hydra and Sylvan Scrying into Nykthos. And of course ManaSinks and G Symbols as much as you can get. At best, both effects at the same time like Unyaro Bees. Maybe a PayOff with Primalcrux or Waker of the Wilds and another fun utiliy Land or Man Land.
uh uh ...aaaaand call it extrem Green Devotion
Edit:
It's very close to endling these Year and you have played a lot Devotion Decks, how about a ranking which Devotion Decks have you impressed the most?
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Vigor
Have someone ever consider this creature?!? In a creature build very interesting or if you ever consider a +1/+1 Counetr Devotion Deck.
I thought an interesting interaction with Vigor would be with cards like Hardened Scales and Walking Ballista. Remove a counter, ping your Ballista, add two counters...rinse, repeat for what I believe is infinite counters. I haven't tried it yet...but it is one of the idea's I've written down.
Obviously, Winding Constrictor and counter doubling stuff would work too.
P.S.
What do you mean by "This is on the first site Primer?" Like on the first page?
I agree that the Simic version is more resilient and more interactive than other versions of Devotion. The cost is a little bit of explosiveness (you aren't going to have the turn 3 BTE into Craterhoof turns that just win the game outright and often may require an additional turn to finish the game after you've put yourself in the winning position). You can still have the crazy turns of"
- Turn One -
1. Play Arbor Elf
- Turn Two -
1. Play Utopia Sprawl
2. Play Kiora (untapping Elf and enchanted Forest)
3. Play Garruk (untapping both lands)
4. Play 3-mana worth of spells
...which can then lead to 12+ mana on turn 3....but there will always be explosive "God Hands" in devotion decks. The "average" game, however, will be less explosive in the Simic Version (as the Pact versions are set up perfectly for powerful, linear turns...which is not a bad thing by any means).
I would love to see your tweaks! I do think the deck has room for improvement before it hits the best balance. Please do let me know the changes you make and how they play.
In case there are Simic Colours in Defender Devotion. I would prefer Kiora's Follower. He can untap Nykthos or Overgrown Battlement to be more broken
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@CurdBros
I mean the first Page. From time to time here are really great text passages that would help new Devotion Players/Deckbuilders a lot.
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At the moment i'm brewing at a Gifts Devotion List, too. A good reason to make public notes
In addition to the combo with Gifts Ungiven there are always still "packages" to tutor some answers.
For example in Esper Gifts :
Wrath Package
*Wrath of God
*Day of Judgment
*Damnation
* Board wipe of your choice
A full (old)List here:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/222959-modern-gifts-packages
But this is the past and now we give Gifts Ungiven a new home with (nearly) new "Packages"
Any Two Cards
* Eternal Witness
* Noxious Revival / Nature's Spiral
* Card 1
* Card 2
Maybe with 1 Off Freed from the Real and an another Combo-Piece and/or XPayOff card
or
Combopieces with Cloudstone Curio
Planeswalker Package example
* Garruk
* Kiora
* Nissa
* Anything other useful card
Mana Fix Package (to cast Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite if Unburial Rites isn't possible )
Another Graveyard interaction:
Den Protector
Deathmist Raptor
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/against-the-odds-devoted-to-garruk
i think this Deck is pretty bad! The smallest Devotion Core that is possible and after that only a lot Garruks that he can find. Ok, all Garruks make some good Tokens, but that isn't a WinCondition imho.