Scoring delirium was fine for my first tournament, I seem to always get a bolt or balista to get get it turned on. honestly depending on the opener, i'd just as much throw it for a land card. if the game drags on its turns into a powerful top deck.
rampant growth might seem weird, but as i was building the deck i was going to use that ramp slot for mind stone. which in my thinking would turn on delirium. But i opted for land thinning over a mana rock, despites its convenient draw a card ability for late game. could use an enchantment version of mind stone, but doesn;t exist in a perfect world to my knowledge.
I run instances in the sideboard so the delirium using instant gets better, games 2 and 3, depending on the match up.
about running only 2 nyxthos. my goal was to push for wolf run, i'd probably fare well to put another nyxthos in.
The Hydra’s are absolutely still in the deck...they are just now in the board. With the deck focusing more and more on mana-sinks (Walking Ballista in particular which I now play four of) Hydra wasn’t as effective as in past decks I’ve played.
I’d like to get a Cloudstone Curio in the deck for my favorite combo (2 Walkers + Curio) but it would have to win enough games that otherwise wouldn’t have been won. It’s not bad outside of the combo (given all of the ETB triggers in the deck) but it is an investment that takes the place of another card (so I would need to be certain it was worth it in particular match-ups).
With Jeskia being a top-tier deck and with the amount of counter-spells in the meta currently, however; I have made room in the board for three hydra’s.
Will post list and results when possible (revising past to remove first two builds/iterations).
The deck is looking great, looking more and more like how I would build it.
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Always wear protection kids, sleeve up your deck.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
The (unfinished) Plan is. A Playset of this Mages into one of the 3-4 Artifacts in the Main. My biggest concern is, that it could be too much durdle around and slow down the mainroute of the typical Devotion Deck.
About JesKai and beeing Toptier: i really like in the Sideboard Summoning Trap.
Edit:
@Curbros
Your Deck look very good. 4x Ballista and 3x Hydra was a real Nonbo. Your changes make sense.
With 8-9 Planeswalker maybe you consider Maulfist Revolutionary as a Walker Supporter. With a Infinite Mana Combo with CloudStone you could gett all the finals with all your Planewalkers
As someone who is fairly new to to this deck I was wondering about summoners pact vs primal command. I know they both tutor for a creature but what advantages/disadvantages do they have over each other ?
I've historically been a huge advocate of Command, though these days I play a Pact-focused list.
The advantage of Command is that it does things that can be way more efficient. You can get rid of a troublesome permanent, including a land to set the opponent back a turn. You can gain a bunch of life to throw off the Burn math, or give the opponent a bunch of life to throw off a Death's Shadow player. You can shuffle away a graveyard to mess with Reanimator, Dredge, Delve, and Flashback. You can also tutor ANY creature, including off-color things like Walking Ballista. Most importantly, you can tutor up Eternal Witness to reuse Command over and over, effectively locking out an opponent. Command should be viewed in this context as a powerful and sometimes game-winning weapon in its own right.
Summoner's Pact is different. It gets the creature now and cast it straightaway, with the tradeoff that it's likely to chew up the next turn. Also, the creature must be green. However, if you're using this to grab BTE for a big Nykthos turn, or Craterhoof Behemoth to crash through and end the game, or a Primeval Titan to put massive mana and a Kessig Wolf Run on the board, the downsides are pretty minimal. Pact is almost like a tutor in an explosive combo deck.
The other card worth considering is Chord of Calling, which is somewhere between the two in difficulty to cast. It can get anything that doesn't have a cost of X, can chuck it right into play (without a worry of interfering countermagic), and is an Instant (so is Pact, though you can rarely use it as such).
The question of which to play is not about which is better in an absolute way, but which is better with the deck you're building. Command excels in more grindy, controlling builds. Pact is great in more explosive, BTE-based builds. Chord is solid in some combo builds. Each have their place.
Summoning Trap is not good in Green Devotion. It's not playing the necessary creatures to make it good. Blood Moon is a fine sideboard card, and I realized I wasn't sideboarding it in before vs. Jeskai Tempo which was a mistake. That should have help my win percentage a bit.
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Always wear protection kids, sleeve up your deck.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
The key to the deck running is actually everybody's bad card: Leyline of Vitality! I play it at the start of the game, Play an Oath of Nissa to dig for something then have 3 devotion right there that only enchantment or permanent removal can take away. The God draw curve goes into play an Arcane Adaptation naming allies for the first, then scarecrow or wall for the next copy you play. You either play the combo if you see the opponent tapped out, or play any two walls, then play Privileged Position for 6++ mana off devotion that cannot be easily be nuked. If you get to 5 plus mana, you can run the Primal Command and Eternal witness loop with the walls holding the fort or play Ruric Thar for more protection for your Kiora if you are going Emblem wincon.
The Jamie Wakefield tech of Wall of Roots added is copied in this deck by Sylvan Caryatid at 0/4 with a Leyline in play. Overgrown Battlement is 0/5 with a Leyline in play. Take note that if the combo resolves, you must have Leyline, Arcane Adaptation in play then the Turntimber Ranger for a Go Wide infinite win con plus infinite life.
So you can actually stall with the walls as chump blockers, wait for the opponent to build big beats and tapping out, then you pull off the combo with infinite life to boot. Sometimes it goes off with the Genesis Hydra putting an Arcane Adaptation into play and you name the tribal creature type of your choice. If you have infinite wolves going out, and name wall with any second copy of Arcane Adaptation, you get infinite mana from any Overgrown Battlement in play. The build is a grind out deck that doesn't necessarily go for the kill, given that the opponent can kill your Turntimber once the first wolf comes out as a fast effect with an instant. So you wait for opponents tapping out, or you bait their spot removal with Primalcrux or Ruric That, the Unbowed or throw out a Genesis Hydra for 5 and up to snag the Privileged Position.
If you have enough devotion from enchantments plus Kiora and several Walls, you can fetch Temur Sabertooth for infinite mana shenanigans. The most fun I've had is a grind out leading into a Reaper King with a second Arcane Adaptation named scarecrow which nukes every permanent while making infinite wolves too, you just kill the Turntimber im play to stop the chain. I've bought a Trostani, Selesnya's Voice to test it soon, but the deck is so tight right now, I'm loath to cut anything for the lifegain, and I want to find anything decent generating fatty tokens for tempo breaking.
I've shelved the Mirrorweave option for the meantime because of my new pet fetish wincon, the Reaper King board wipe.
I've tested against a heavy control Orzhov deck that has Wrath of God, Path to Exile, and other spot removal and I've had all my fatties, path to exiled away, only to pull out the infinite combo for the win with infinite life to spare. Leyline of Vitality is so underrated as a combo piece for infinite life in this deck that if it's just sitting there on the board, you recover 1 life for each copy of it in play for every creature you put into the battlefield.
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar tested right like Alex dude said it would. Blockers each turn that gain you life with Leyline of Vitality that eventualy may be Mirrorweaved Primalcrux once I get around to that combo tech. For now, this is the deck, a casual build that I will test in a year ender tourney coming up and I hope to grind out some wins with its quirky threat variations.
The singleton Karametra's Acolyte is there for the Kiora bomb first ability if I have a Nykthos in play, it can get the Primal Command combo going superbly with Witness to tuck lands back on top of their libraries and you just combo off at your leisure. The Karametra's Acolyte also bleeds a spot removal spell or it gets in after your opponent expends all of their spot removal spells on your combo pieces that you can still use explosive devotion of the remaining Leylines and Oaths plus the Privileged Position after board wipe. There are only two Witnesses and you eventually dig them out with Kiora, Oath of Nissa, and Genesis Hydra. As beats, the Hydra isn't that shabby too if I have Kessig Wolf Run or run Nylea as a replacement for any piece in the deck.
Hope you get something out of this if you are building a UG deck.
It's actually a clunkier version of any Coco Abzan infinite life combo deck.
1. Trying without a Polukranos, World Eater and an additional copy of Wolfbriar Elemental- I absolutely LOVE Polukranos, but without a tutor of any kind, Walking Ballista becomes just as good (better) as Polukranos...so there is no real need for it.
2. Added three copies of Genesis Hydra to the board - I haven't found a better card against U/W/x control decks...generally this will put us ahead enough to win the match. It is also good against decks with larger creatures (although Wolfbriar also helps here as well). It is worth it for me just due to the fact that it pushes Control match-ups to 60/40.
The (unfinished) Plan is. A Playset of this Mages into one of the 3-4 Artifacts in the Main. My biggest concern is, that it could be too much durdle around and slow down the mainroute of the typical Devotion Deck.
About JesKai and beeing Toptier: i really like in the Sideboard Summoning Trap.
Edit:
@Curbros
Your Deck look very good. 4x Ballista and 3x Hydra was a real Nonbo. Your changes make sense.
With 8-9 Planeswalker maybe you consider Maulfist Revolutionary as a Walker Supporter. With a Infinite Mana Combo with CloudStone you could gett all the finals with all your Planewalkers
Thanks for the kind words. I have explored both Trophy Mage and Maulfist Revolutionary...although I can't say I tested Maulfist for an extended period. I did have a deck with Trophy Mages in it, but it was more of an "all in" Curio version. To be honest, you are absolutely right that if you played a 1 or 2-of Cloudstone Curio and a 1-of Trophy Mage...it would be absolutely worth it if Mage also tutored up multiple sideboard cards. Dampining Matrix can hurt us (Arbor Elf, Duskwatch, Rhonas, Ballista)...but there are some decks it absolutely hoses as well that would be great for us if we sided correctly (utilized more ETB and Walkers and less Activated abilities....I think, however, there are enough targets where it could work.
Maulfist is probably something I should test more. It's good with both Walkers and Ballista.
The key to the deck running is actually everybody's bad card: Leyline of Vitality! I play it at the start of the game, Play an Oath of Nissa to dig for something then have 3 devotion right there that only enchantment or permanent removal can take away. The God draw curve goes into play an Arcane Adaptation naming allies for the first, then scarecrow or wall for the next copy you play. You either play the combo if you see the opponent tapped out, or play any two walls, then play Privileged Position for 6++ mana off devotion that cannot be easily be nuked. If you get to 5 plus mana, you can run the Primal Command and Eternal witness loop with the walls holding the fort or play Ruric Thar for more protection for your Kiora if you are going Emblem wincon.
The Jamie Wakefield tech of Wall of Roots added is copied in this deck by Sylvan Caryatid at 0/4 with a Leyline in play. Overgrown Battlement is 0/5 with a Leyline in play. Take note that if the combo resolves, you must have Leyline, Arcane Adaptation in play then the Turntimber Ranger for a Go Wide infinite win con plus infinite life.
So you can actually stall with the walls as chump blockers, wait for the opponent to build big beats and tapping out, then you pull off the combo with infinite life to boot. Sometimes it goes off with the Genesis Hydra putting an Arcane Adaptation into play and you name the tribal creature type of your choice. If you have infinite wolves going out, and name wall with any second copy of Arcane Adaptation, you get infinite mana from any Overgrown Battlement in play. The build is a grind out deck that doesn't necessarily go for the kill, given that the opponent can kill your Turntimber once the first wolf comes out as a fast effect with an instant. So you wait for opponents tapping out, or you bait their spot removal with Primalcrux or Ruric That, the Unbowed or throw out a Genesis Hydra for 5 and up to snag the Privileged Position.
If you have enough devotion from enchantments plus Kiora and several Walls, you can fetch Temur Sabertooth for infinite mana shenanigans. The most fun I've had is a grind out leading into a Reaper King with a second Arcane Adaptation named scarecrow which nukes every permanent while making infinite wolves too, you just kill the Turntimber im play to stop the chain. I've bought a Trostani, Selesnya's Voice to test it soon, but the deck is so tight right now, I'm loath to cut anything for the lifegain, and I want to find anything decent generating fatty tokens for tempo breaking.
I've shelved the Mirrorweave option for the meantime because of my new pet fetish wincon, the Reaper King board wipe.
I've tested against a heavy control Orzhov deck that has Wrath of God, Path to Exile, and other spot removal and I've had all my fatties, path to exiled away, only to pull out the infinite combo for the win with infinite life to spare. Leyline of Vitality is so underrated as a combo piece for infinite life in this deck that if it's just sitting there on the board, you recover 1 life for each copy of it in play for every creature you put into the battlefield.
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar tested right like Alex dude said it would. Blockers each turn that gain you life with Leyline of Vitality that eventualy may be Mirrorweaved Primalcrux once I get around to that combo tech. For now, this is the deck, a casual build that I will test in a year ender tourney coming up and I hope to grind out some wins with its quirky threat variations.
The singleton Karametra's Acolyte is there for the Kiora bomb first ability if I have a Nykthos in play, it can get the Primal Command combo going superbly with Witness to tuck lands back on top of their libraries and you just combo off at your leisure. The Karametra's Acolyte also bleeds a spot removal spell or it gets in after your opponent expends all of their spot removal spells on your combo pieces that you can still use explosive devotion of the remaining Leylines and Oaths plus the Privileged Position after board wipe. There are only two Witnesses and you eventually dig them out with Kiora, Oath of Nissa, and Genesis Hydra. As beats, the Hydra isn't that shabby too if I have Kessig Wolf Run or run Nylea as a replacement for any piece in the deck.
Hope you get something out of this if you are building a UG deck.
It's actually a clunkier version of any Coco Abzan infinite life combo deck.
What a cool list There are so many cards in here I would love to play (Tenur Sabertooth, Karametra's Acolyte) and I have to make a deck with a few of these just because I love them so much. I haven't played a list similar enough to this to have a strong opinion or to be able to provide any kind of truly educated discussion; but I will try it out so I can provide some insight and discuss this more. Looks like a lot of fun though!
went 4-0 tonight. that 1 of magus of the moon in my main deck is doing good work for me. last week I completely messed up a JUNK player by surprising him with it. tonight I took a game 1 against Valakut! game 2 he got off, I didn't see a single blood moon. game 3 didn't see a single sideboard blood moon, but i got my magus of all things, locked my opponent down.
I am (the last person here?) playing T&N. While it's a lot of fun it is also just annoyingly mediocre. After about 100 matches (FNM at a spikey lgs mostly), I'm at almost exactly 50% and wanting to do better. I feel like my list is not quite tuned and wondering if you guys have advice
Ideas I've had:
The only MB card i really don't like is Primal Command. It just seems a little too clunky. I want to replace it with something less mana intensive, and preferably a permanent for devotion, but I'm not sure what.
I don't really like my sideboard. The biggest problem is that very few of my cards add devotion, so boarding dilutes my plan. However, individually I like all the cards except the roast, natures claim, and Thrun. That leaves 3 SB spaces open. Genesis Hydra? Engineered Explosives? More Blood Moon?
I also might want a white splash with a Temple Garden or a few birds in main, which lets me hardcast leyline easier, and gives me better sideboard options. EE on x = 3 or 4, Path, Dragonlord Dromoka?
@Dos_Rogue if I play Primal Command I definitely have a single Magus of the Moon in my mainboard.
Unfortunately, I find the Primal Command deck to be a bit worse than my deck which uses a couple Pacts
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Always wear protection kids, sleeve up your deck.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I am (the last person here?) playing T&N. While it's a lot of fun it is also just annoyingly mediocre. After about 100 matches (FNM at a spikey lgs mostly), I'm at almost exactly 50% and wanting to do better. I feel like my list is not quite tuned and wondering if you guys have advice
Ideas I've had:
The only MB card i really don't like is Primal Command. It just seems a little too clunky. I want to replace it with something less mana intensive, and preferably a permanent for devotion, but I'm not sure what.
I don't really like my sideboard. The biggest problem is that very few of my cards add devotion, so boarding dilutes my plan. However, individually I like all the cards except the roast, natures claim, and Thrun. That leaves 3 SB spaces open. Genesis Hydra? Engineered Explosives? More Blood Moon?
I also might want a white splash with a Temple Garden or a few birds in main, which lets me hardcast leyline easier, and gives me better sideboard options. EE on x = 3 or 4, Path, Dragonlord Dromoka?
I'm not experienced with TNN, but your list doesn't really look bad. The key thing is that you're looking for 9 mana, whereas most variants can do most of what they need with 8. Overgrowth is a card you may want to consider: it provides 2 mana in a single card, and is also doubled by Arbor Elf or Garruk WS. Try swapping your Caryatids for 3 Overgrowth and 1 Bird.
I like your Titan backup plan: it feeds directly into casting TNN, and that mana is also great with Kessig. Another option is to chuck some more Treetop Villages in. Having 2-3 means that you can just get 2 with Titan, which is pretty dangerous irrespective of board state. Ballista also works nicely here.
I agree that this may not be the best build for Command, though you certainly can generate a lot of mana to fuel it. Similarly, I'm not crazy about Nissa VoZ: the creatures only act as chump blockers and you don't really have a huge team worth pumping, even if the ultimate might be huge. This may be a better deck for Courser to buy you time, and get some CA (plus synergizing with Titan). Another option might be Tireless Tracker.
@Dos_Rogue if I play Primal Command I definitely have a single Magus of the Moon in my mainboard.
Unfortunately, I find the Primal Command deck to be a bit worse than my deck which uses a couple Pacts
I might have to consider a copy of Magus in my Command-variant's SB. I'm not convinced the Command build is worse, but I'm enjoying Pact because it's faster and different (I'd been on Command builds for over a year prior).
I have been happy with Nissa VoZ. Yes, usually all it does is make chump-blockers, but those 0/1's are more relevant than they would seem. Good against edicts (though Lili is a bit out of favor right now) and also Thought-Knot Seer, Tasigur, Shadow, Goblin Guide don't have trample and can be shut down by Nissa while she threatens to Sphinx's Revelation them out of the game if they ignore her for too long. In the meantime, she sits there adding 2 devotion and distracting the opponent, giving me the time I need to set everything else up.
I do wish Nissa synergized with the rest of the deck a little bit more, beyond the two green mana symbols and being hard to kill, but she's the best I've found for the 3 cmc slot. I've tested Tireless Tracker extensively, but it is fragile and thus always felt like a win-more, in that games where it survived long enough to do anything I would have won anyway. That said, I would like some way of finding more CA in my 60. I haven't tried courser very much, just not a fan of giving my opponent information. Maybe it's good enough to be worth it?
I tested a little with Bow of Nylea for hard-to-kill devotion on a general utility card. Shenanigans with Ballista are loads of fun, but I think the card doesn't quite do enough to be a do-nothing on turn 2 or 3. Still might be good as a 1-of maybe?
After the success from 8Rack, i remembered one game as i have tested Unyaro Bees as a "Combat-Devotion" creature in a game there was a Ensnaring Bridge in play. Attack declaration for 0 and pump to 15/16 . (Trying Cards in G-Devotion is sometimes sooo funny )
Maybe someone consider this as a Sideboardtech against those decks as additional option to artifact hate. to the plus side, as a creature it's tutoriable. And yes, i know it's a pure Meta Call (Very strong 3Drops for us ) .
@Aethelianmage
I think you should just try Courser of Kruphix more. The Card Advantage is great and it still indirectly support your Plan to Ramp into T&N. And to be fair. T&N have nearly no disruption. So you must not really hide your card draw.
Unyaro Bees is pretty clever! My problem with Bridge has mostly been in Lantern though, where it isn't "having a card that wins" which is the problem so much as "getting the card that wins" and "not lunging across the table to choke your troll opponent," which probably still gets at least a match loss.
I do think Bees belongs in the same class as stuff like Chameleon Colossus, though. Not as good generally, but worthy of consideration.
Bees is also light creature removal, though really inefficient at it.
@Aethelianmage I am also playing Tooth and Nail. I like that your list has full four Primeval Titans because I've seen too many T&N lists that have like one or two. However, there are three main things I would change in your list (these are only my opinions and I don't claim to have the correct answers):
1) Ramp cards: I don't think Sylvan Caryatid is good enough. Usually these decks have some mixture of Voyaging Satyr and Overgrowth because they are so explosive. Sylvan Caryatid is harder to kill sure, but in modern speed is so important. You also have only 8 one mana ramp cards and I think 10-11 is more likely to be correct. I have 2 Birds of Paradise in this slot.
2) Walking Ballista + Nissa, Voice of Zendikar: I feel like these are too fair cards for this type of deck. To be fair, I have no experience with these cards in practice so maybe these are better than I think. I would replace them with more ramp and more bombs. If you want removal in main deck, I would suggest Lightning Bolt.
3) Mana base: With the above changes in mind, I think 4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is unnecessary. I only have 2 now and it is so much nicer for the mana. I have played various Tooth and Nail and Devotion decks that had Kessig Wold Run and 4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and it is often a pain. I am not sure about the creature land so it may be fine, but I have never played with those in these decks because I prefer speed and want my lands untapped.
I have included my list below. Sideboard is not well tuned.
And in general, what is everyone's opinion of the two different Emrakuls in T&N decks? Where Annihilator 6 is better? Against Ad Nauseam? Emrakul, the Promised End has trample so she kills in one shot too and is way easier to hardcast. Usually I cast her for 10 mana and I feel like that is more relevant than Annihilator 6.
Thanks everyone for advising on the list I posted. You all are cool people
For FNM I decided to try changing my list a little bit, based on the discussion here. I didn't want to go buy cards, so I was limited to what I had already. List is as posted above with following changes:
Without the commands, Ewit isn't really worth it, and i needed room for a card-advantage creature in Tracker. I don't own any paper coursers, so ill have to test them online later. Black/GDS is on the downswing, so the Colossus is not necessary. I also wanted a few more T1 dorks, as @nogeist mentioned
R1: Opp is the MartyrProc player of the shop. G1 Tireless Tracker engine out-values him, he dies to beats. G2 Walking Ballista murders his little dudes before they become big dudes and Tooth and Nail gets there. 1-0
R2: A Tooth and Nail mirror! Always nice to see another devotee to green. His list is mono-G, running ghost quarter MB, and faster than mine, since mine is built to grind rather than for speed. I get game two but lose the others. 1-1. (Side note: we finished a combined 6-2, so it was a good showing by Green Devotion tonight.)
R3: 8-rack. Not a deck I've seen in a while or a good matchup. G1 I get rolled over, but G2 I get a tracker rolling and hoard cards in my hand until it beats him to death. G3 turns into a standoff with me, a Garruk, and a Leyline vs. his bridge and Necrogen Mists but no affliction/rack. I find abrade and burn his bridge before he finds any action. 2-1
R4: Opp is a kid who plays a Mono-B midrange-control list. Think Pack Rat, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Ob Nixilis Reignited. He's a solid but inexperienced player limited by his budget (No Lili or Thoughsieze), so basically me a few years ago when i started out. He aggressively kills/ discards my mana dorks, but his deck is too slow to keep me off my lategame forever. I get there in 2, 3-1
So I got a 3-1 finish and some prize support, which was cool. I was very happy with the changes to my main deck, but i didn't get the chance to see if my sideboard changes were worth it.
@nogeist: It seems like trample and annihilator 6 both have similar effects of preventing blocks and leading to 1-hit kills. Hardcasting Promised
End seems really useful, but annihilator is really hard to come back from even if they stop the damage somehow, and the graveyard clause is occasionally relevant. They seem about even to me.
EDIT: Felt like discussing a bit more. The list is built to grind against fair decks and give me the time to go over the top in the late game. Nissa is an excellent meat shield while providing 2 devotion that isn't easy to get rid of. I used to run bolts in the main but replaced them with ballista. It's good early, is a great mana sink, and a legitimate late-game finisher if cast for X=5+. Only reason I'm not running four is lack of green mana symbols.
Personally, I strongly agree with the Ballista choice. Ballista at X=4 or more starts edging into an auto-win against an increasing number of decks.
I think the two Emrakuls are debatable. The hardcast trigger on tPE is much easier to reach, but tAT is much more resistant to removal and wrecks the board in a way that cripples most opponents even if they survive a hit. For that reason, I prefer tAT. Let's face it: they both have CMC=9 anyway, and you're running tons of mana ramping.
Scoring delirium was fine for my first tournament, I seem to always get a bolt or balista to get get it turned on. honestly depending on the opener, i'd just as much throw it for a land card. if the game drags on its turns into a powerful top deck.
rampant growth might seem weird, but as i was building the deck i was going to use that ramp slot for mind stone. which in my thinking would turn on delirium. But i opted for land thinning over a mana rock, despites its convenient draw a card ability for late game. could use an enchantment version of mind stone, but doesn;t exist in a perfect world to my knowledge.
I run instances in the sideboard so the delirium using instant gets better, games 2 and 3, depending on the match up.
about running only 2 nyxthos. my goal was to push for wolf run, i'd probably fare well to put another nyxthos in.
1x Karn Liberated
1x Duskwatch Recruiter
1x Wolfbriar Elemental
The Hydra’s are absolutely still in the deck...they are just now in the board. With the deck focusing more and more on mana-sinks (Walking Ballista in particular which I now play four of) Hydra wasn’t as effective as in past decks I’ve played.
I’d like to get a Cloudstone Curio in the deck for my favorite combo (2 Walkers + Curio) but it would have to win enough games that otherwise wouldn’t have been won. It’s not bad outside of the combo (given all of the ETB triggers in the deck) but it is an investment that takes the place of another card (so I would need to be certain it was worth it in particular match-ups).
With Jeskia being a top-tier deck and with the amount of counter-spells in the meta currently, however; I have made room in the board for three hydra’s.
Will post list and results when possible (revising past to remove first two builds/iterations).
Simic Devotion
4x Arbor Elf
2x Birds of Paradise
3x Coiling Oracle
1x Duskwatch Recruiter
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
2x Courser of Kruphix
2x Eternal Witness
1x Wolfbriar Elemental
1x Polukranos, World Eater
2x Acidic Slime
4x Walking Ballista
4x Utopia Sprawl
3x Oath of Nissa
Planeswalker (9)
1x Nissa, Steward of Elements
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Kiora, Master of the Depths
2x Karn Liberated
Lands (21)
6x Forest
7x Green Fetch Land
3x Breeding Pool
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Field of Ruin
2x Vapor Snag
1x Beast Within
1x Cyclonic Rift
2x Spreading Seas
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Cloudstone Curio
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Primal Command
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flex
The deck is looking great, looking more and more like how I would build it.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
About Cloudstone Curio i have some brew notes for a Simic Version
Trophy Mage as a TutorToolBox --> into :
Lifecrafter's Bestiary ,
Cloudstone Curio (2 Walker Infinite Mana Combo!) ,
Bow of Nylea ,
Damping Matrix (Sideboard) ,
Druidic Satchel (Library Revealed Theme,slow, Land Ramp) ,
Mirage Mirror (example: copy Nykthos to finsih off / Legend Rule )
Proteus Staff (target opponent creatures if needed)
Sword of ...... ,
Vedalken Shackles
The (unfinished) Plan is. A Playset of this Mages into one of the 3-4 Artifacts in the Main. My biggest concern is, that it could be too much durdle around and slow down the mainroute of the typical Devotion Deck.
About JesKai and beeing Toptier: i really like in the Sideboard Summoning Trap.
Edit:
@Curbros
Your Deck look very good. 4x Ballista and 3x Hydra was a real Nonbo. Your changes make sense.
With 8-9 Planeswalker maybe you consider Maulfist Revolutionary as a Walker Supporter. With a Infinite Mana Combo with CloudStone you could gett all the finals with all your Planewalkers
Your deck is now entirely permanant's (besides the Sideboard) so resolving a Primal Surge will play your entire deck until you want to stop it.
I've historically been a huge advocate of Command, though these days I play a Pact-focused list.
The advantage of Command is that it does things that can be way more efficient. You can get rid of a troublesome permanent, including a land to set the opponent back a turn. You can gain a bunch of life to throw off the Burn math, or give the opponent a bunch of life to throw off a Death's Shadow player. You can shuffle away a graveyard to mess with Reanimator, Dredge, Delve, and Flashback. You can also tutor ANY creature, including off-color things like Walking Ballista. Most importantly, you can tutor up Eternal Witness to reuse Command over and over, effectively locking out an opponent. Command should be viewed in this context as a powerful and sometimes game-winning weapon in its own right.
Summoner's Pact is different. It gets the creature now and cast it straightaway, with the tradeoff that it's likely to chew up the next turn. Also, the creature must be green. However, if you're using this to grab BTE for a big Nykthos turn, or Craterhoof Behemoth to crash through and end the game, or a Primeval Titan to put massive mana and a Kessig Wolf Run on the board, the downsides are pretty minimal. Pact is almost like a tutor in an explosive combo deck.
The other card worth considering is Chord of Calling, which is somewhere between the two in difficulty to cast. It can get anything that doesn't have a cost of X, can chuck it right into play (without a worry of interfering countermagic), and is an Instant (so is Pact, though you can rarely use it as such).
The question of which to play is not about which is better in an absolute way, but which is better with the deck you're building. Command excels in more grindy, controlling builds. Pact is great in more explosive, BTE-based builds. Chord is solid in some combo builds. Each have their place.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
The deck survives multiple hits of Wrath of God and still recovers nicely as long as I either have a Kiora, Master of Depths to dig for solutions, and Eternal Witness or Primal Command to find silver bullets or win conditions.
Arcane Adaptation functions in the same tech threat level as the Nissa, Voice of Zendikar as explained by Alex dude. If you don't deal with it, I get to eventually topdeck a Turntimber Ranger or the singleton Reaper King for the combo.
The key to the deck running is actually everybody's bad card: Leyline of Vitality! I play it at the start of the game, Play an Oath of Nissa to dig for something then have 3 devotion right there that only enchantment or permanent removal can take away. The God draw curve goes into play an Arcane Adaptation naming allies for the first, then scarecrow or wall for the next copy you play. You either play the combo if you see the opponent tapped out, or play any two walls, then play Privileged Position for 6++ mana off devotion that cannot be easily be nuked. If you get to 5 plus mana, you can run the Primal Command and Eternal witness loop with the walls holding the fort or play Ruric Thar for more protection for your Kiora if you are going Emblem wincon.
The Jamie Wakefield tech of Wall of Roots added is copied in this deck by Sylvan Caryatid at 0/4 with a Leyline in play. Overgrown Battlement is 0/5 with a Leyline in play. Take note that if the combo resolves, you must have Leyline, Arcane Adaptation in play then the Turntimber Ranger for a Go Wide infinite win con plus infinite life.
So you can actually stall with the walls as chump blockers, wait for the opponent to build big beats and tapping out, then you pull off the combo with infinite life to boot. Sometimes it goes off with the Genesis Hydra putting an Arcane Adaptation into play and you name the tribal creature type of your choice. If you have infinite wolves going out, and name wall with any second copy of Arcane Adaptation, you get infinite mana from any Overgrown Battlement in play. The build is a grind out deck that doesn't necessarily go for the kill, given that the opponent can kill your Turntimber once the first wolf comes out as a fast effect with an instant. So you wait for opponents tapping out, or you bait their spot removal with Primalcrux or Ruric That, the Unbowed or throw out a Genesis Hydra for 5 and up to snag the Privileged Position.
If you have enough devotion from enchantments plus Kiora and several Walls, you can fetch Temur Sabertooth for infinite mana shenanigans. The most fun I've had is a grind out leading into a Reaper King with a second Arcane Adaptation named scarecrow which nukes every permanent while making infinite wolves too, you just kill the Turntimber im play to stop the chain. I've bought a Trostani, Selesnya's Voice to test it soon, but the deck is so tight right now, I'm loath to cut anything for the lifegain, and I want to find anything decent generating fatty tokens for tempo breaking.
I've shelved the Mirrorweave option for the meantime because of my new pet fetish wincon, the Reaper King board wipe.
I've tested against a heavy control Orzhov deck that has Wrath of God, Path to Exile, and other spot removal and I've had all my fatties, path to exiled away, only to pull out the infinite combo for the win with infinite life to spare. Leyline of Vitality is so underrated as a combo piece for infinite life in this deck that if it's just sitting there on the board, you recover 1 life for each copy of it in play for every creature you put into the battlefield.
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar tested right like Alex dude said it would. Blockers each turn that gain you life with Leyline of Vitality that eventualy may be Mirrorweaved Primalcrux once I get around to that combo tech. For now, this is the deck, a casual build that I will test in a year ender tourney coming up and I hope to grind out some wins with its quirky threat variations.
The singleton Karametra's Acolyte is there for the Kiora bomb first ability if I have a Nykthos in play, it can get the Primal Command combo going superbly with Witness to tuck lands back on top of their libraries and you just combo off at your leisure. The Karametra's Acolyte also bleeds a spot removal spell or it gets in after your opponent expends all of their spot removal spells on your combo pieces that you can still use explosive devotion of the remaining Leylines and Oaths plus the Privileged Position after board wipe. There are only two Witnesses and you eventually dig them out with Kiora, Oath of Nissa, and Genesis Hydra. As beats, the Hydra isn't that shabby too if I have Kessig Wolf Run or run Nylea as a replacement for any piece in the deck.
Hope you get something out of this if you are building a UG deck.
It's actually a clunkier version of any Coco Abzan infinite life combo deck.
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Overgrown Battlement
3x Turntimber Ranger
1x Karametra's Acolyte
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2x Primalcrux
2x Eternal Witness
1x Reaper King
1x Temur Sabertooth
2x Genesis Hydra
2x Privileged Position
3x Leyline of Vitality
3x Arcane Adaption
3x Oath of Nissa
Planeswalker (5)
1x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4x Kiora, Master of the Depths
Sorceries (2)
2x Primal Command
13x Forest
1x Flooded Grove
2x Hinterland Harbor
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Kessig, Wolf Run
1. Trying without a Polukranos, World Eater and an additional copy of Wolfbriar Elemental- I absolutely LOVE Polukranos, but without a tutor of any kind, Walking Ballista becomes just as good (better) as Polukranos...so there is no real need for it.
2. Added three copies of Genesis Hydra to the board - I haven't found a better card against U/W/x control decks...generally this will put us ahead enough to win the match. It is also good against decks with larger creatures (although Wolfbriar also helps here as well). It is worth it for me just due to the fact that it pushes Control match-ups to 60/40.
4x Arbor Elf
2x Birds of Paradise
3x Coiling Oracle
1x Duskwatch Recruiter
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
2x Courser of Kruphix
2x Eternal Witness
2x Wolfbriar Elemental
2x Acidic Slime
4x Walking Ballista
4x Utopia Sprawl
3x Oath of Nissa
Planeswalker (9)
1x Nissa, Steward of Elements
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Kiora, Master of the Depths
2x Karn Liberated
Lands (21)
6x Forest
7x Green Fetch Land
3x Breeding Pool
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Field of Ruin
2x Vapor Snag
1x Beast Within
1x Cyclonic Rift
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Cloudstone Curio
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Primal Command
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Genesis Hydra
__________
Thanks for the kind words. I have explored both Trophy Mage and Maulfist Revolutionary...although I can't say I tested Maulfist for an extended period. I did have a deck with Trophy Mages in it, but it was more of an "all in" Curio version. To be honest, you are absolutely right that if you played a 1 or 2-of Cloudstone Curio and a 1-of Trophy Mage...it would be absolutely worth it if Mage also tutored up multiple sideboard cards. Dampining Matrix can hurt us (Arbor Elf, Duskwatch, Rhonas, Ballista)...but there are some decks it absolutely hoses as well that would be great for us if we sided correctly (utilized more ETB and Walkers and less Activated abilities....I think, however, there are enough targets where it could work.
Maulfist is probably something I should test more. It's good with both Walkers and Ballista.
___________
I hadn't thought of that...but you are right. It gets to 10 VERY easily...so it may be worth it as an "I win" card I may have to test this.
___________
What a cool list There are so many cards in here I would love to play (Tenur Sabertooth, Karametra's Acolyte) and I have to make a deck with a few of these just because I love them so much. I haven't played a list similar enough to this to have a strong opinion or to be able to provide any kind of truly educated discussion; but I will try it out so I can provide some insight and discuss this more. Looks like a lot of fun though!
I am (the last person here?) playing T&N. While it's a lot of fun it is also just annoyingly mediocre. After about 100 matches (FNM at a spikey lgs mostly), I'm at almost exactly 50% and wanting to do better. I feel like my list is not quite tuned and wondering if you guys have advice
Gr Tooth and Nail:
4 Arbor Elf
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Primeval Titan
4 Tooth and Nail
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Walking Ballista
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
1 Eternal Witness
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Chameleon Colossus
2 Primal Command
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Windswept Heath
4 Stomping Ground
1 Treetop Village
7 Forest
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Roast
2 Abrade
1 Nature's Claim
1 World Breaker
2 Blood Moon
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Relic of Profenitus
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Ideas I've had:
The only MB card i really don't like is Primal Command. It just seems a little too clunky. I want to replace it with something less mana intensive, and preferably a permanent for devotion, but I'm not sure what.
I don't really like my sideboard. The biggest problem is that very few of my cards add devotion, so boarding dilutes my plan. However, individually I like all the cards except the roast, natures claim, and Thrun. That leaves 3 SB spaces open. Genesis Hydra? Engineered Explosives? More Blood Moon?
I also might want a white splash with a Temple Garden or a few birds in main, which lets me hardcast leyline easier, and gives me better sideboard options. EE on x = 3 or 4, Path, Dragonlord Dromoka?
Unfortunately, I find the Primal Command deck to be a bit worse than my deck which uses a couple Pacts
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I'm not experienced with TNN, but your list doesn't really look bad. The key thing is that you're looking for 9 mana, whereas most variants can do most of what they need with 8. Overgrowth is a card you may want to consider: it provides 2 mana in a single card, and is also doubled by Arbor Elf or Garruk WS. Try swapping your Caryatids for 3 Overgrowth and 1 Bird.
I like your Titan backup plan: it feeds directly into casting TNN, and that mana is also great with Kessig. Another option is to chuck some more Treetop Villages in. Having 2-3 means that you can just get 2 with Titan, which is pretty dangerous irrespective of board state. Ballista also works nicely here.
I agree that this may not be the best build for Command, though you certainly can generate a lot of mana to fuel it. Similarly, I'm not crazy about Nissa VoZ: the creatures only act as chump blockers and you don't really have a huge team worth pumping, even if the ultimate might be huge. This may be a better deck for Courser to buy you time, and get some CA (plus synergizing with Titan). Another option might be Tireless Tracker.
I might have to consider a copy of Magus in my Command-variant's SB. I'm not convinced the Command build is worse, but I'm enjoying Pact because it's faster and different (I'd been on Command builds for over a year prior).
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I have been happy with Nissa VoZ. Yes, usually all it does is make chump-blockers, but those 0/1's are more relevant than they would seem. Good against edicts (though Lili is a bit out of favor right now) and also Thought-Knot Seer, Tasigur, Shadow, Goblin Guide don't have trample and can be shut down by Nissa while she threatens to Sphinx's Revelation them out of the game if they ignore her for too long. In the meantime, she sits there adding 2 devotion and distracting the opponent, giving me the time I need to set everything else up.
I do wish Nissa synergized with the rest of the deck a little bit more, beyond the two green mana symbols and being hard to kill, but she's the best I've found for the 3 cmc slot. I've tested Tireless Tracker extensively, but it is fragile and thus always felt like a win-more, in that games where it survived long enough to do anything I would have won anyway. That said, I would like some way of finding more CA in my 60. I haven't tried courser very much, just not a fan of giving my opponent information. Maybe it's good enough to be worth it?
I tested a little with Bow of Nylea for hard-to-kill devotion on a general utility card. Shenanigans with Ballista are loads of fun, but I think the card doesn't quite do enough to be a do-nothing on turn 2 or 3. Still might be good as a 1-of maybe?
Maybe someone consider this as a Sideboardtech against those decks as additional option to artifact hate. to the plus side, as a creature it's tutoriable. And yes, i know it's a pure Meta Call (Very strong 3Drops for us ) .
@Aethelianmage
I think you should just try Courser of Kruphix more. The Card Advantage is great and it still indirectly support your Plan to Ramp into T&N. And to be fair. T&N have nearly no disruption. So you must not really hide your card draw.
I do think Bees belongs in the same class as stuff like Chameleon Colossus, though. Not as good generally, but worthy of consideration.
Bees is also light creature removal, though really inefficient at it.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
A card I looked at for my “for fun” Devotion deck a while back was Urzapine...expensive but makes for fun turns :).
1) Ramp cards: I don't think Sylvan Caryatid is good enough. Usually these decks have some mixture of Voyaging Satyr and Overgrowth because they are so explosive. Sylvan Caryatid is harder to kill sure, but in modern speed is so important. You also have only 8 one mana ramp cards and I think 10-11 is more likely to be correct. I have 2 Birds of Paradise in this slot.
2) Walking Ballista + Nissa, Voice of Zendikar: I feel like these are too fair cards for this type of deck. To be fair, I have no experience with these cards in practice so maybe these are better than I think. I would replace them with more ramp and more bombs. If you want removal in main deck, I would suggest Lightning Bolt.
3) Mana base: With the above changes in mind, I think 4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is unnecessary. I only have 2 now and it is so much nicer for the mana. I have played various Tooth and Nail and Devotion decks that had Kessig Wold Run and 4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and it is often a pain. I am not sure about the creature land so it may be fine, but I have never played with those in these decks because I prefer speed and want my lands untapped.
I have included my list below. Sideboard is not well tuned.
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Overgrowth
3 Voyaging Satyr
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Hornet Queen
4 Primeval Titan
4 Tooth and Nail
1 Eternal Witness
3 Lightning Bolt
9 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Stomping Ground
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Beast Within
2 Blood Moon
2 Crumble to Dust
1 Eternal Witness
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Primal Command
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
And in general, what is everyone's opinion of the two different Emrakuls in T&N decks? Where Annihilator 6 is better? Against Ad Nauseam? Emrakul, the Promised End has trample so she kills in one shot too and is way easier to hardcast. Usually I cast her for 10 mana and I feel like that is more relevant than Annihilator 6.
For FNM I decided to try changing my list a little bit, based on the discussion here. I didn't want to go buy cards, so I was limited to what I had already. List is as posted above with following changes:
MB
-2 Primal Command, -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Chameleon Colossus, -1 Sylvan Caryatid
+3 Tireless Tracker, +2 Birds of Paradise
Without the commands, Ewit isn't really worth it, and i needed room for a card-advantage creature in Tracker. I don't own any paper coursers, so ill have to test them online later. Black/GDS is on the downswing, so the Colossus is not necessary. I also wanted a few more T1 dorks, as @nogeist mentioned
SB:
-1 Nature's Claim, -1 Thrun, the last Troll
+1 Reclamation Sage, +1 Hornet Queen
Tournament Report:
R1: Opp is the MartyrProc player of the shop. G1 Tireless Tracker engine out-values him, he dies to beats. G2 Walking Ballista murders his little dudes before they become big dudes and Tooth and Nail gets there. 1-0
R2: A Tooth and Nail mirror! Always nice to see another devotee to green. His list is mono-G, running ghost quarter MB, and faster than mine, since mine is built to grind rather than for speed. I get game two but lose the others. 1-1. (Side note: we finished a combined 6-2, so it was a good showing by Green Devotion tonight.)
R3: 8-rack. Not a deck I've seen in a while or a good matchup. G1 I get rolled over, but G2 I get a tracker rolling and hoard cards in my hand until it beats him to death. G3 turns into a standoff with me, a Garruk, and a Leyline vs. his bridge and Necrogen Mists but no affliction/rack. I find abrade and burn his bridge before he finds any action. 2-1
R4: Opp is a kid who plays a Mono-B midrange-control list. Think Pack Rat, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Ob Nixilis Reignited. He's a solid but inexperienced player limited by his budget (No Lili or Thoughsieze), so basically me a few years ago when i started out. He aggressively kills/ discards my mana dorks, but his deck is too slow to keep me off my lategame forever. I get there in 2, 3-1
So I got a 3-1 finish and some prize support, which was cool. I was very happy with the changes to my main deck, but i didn't get the chance to see if my sideboard changes were worth it.
@nogeist: It seems like trample and annihilator 6 both have similar effects of preventing blocks and leading to 1-hit kills. Hardcasting Promised
End seems really useful, but annihilator is really hard to come back from even if they stop the damage somehow, and the graveyard clause is occasionally relevant. They seem about even to me.
EDIT: Felt like discussing a bit more. The list is built to grind against fair decks and give me the time to go over the top in the late game. Nissa is an excellent meat shield while providing 2 devotion that isn't easy to get rid of. I used to run bolts in the main but replaced them with ballista. It's good early, is a great mana sink, and a legitimate late-game finisher if cast for X=5+. Only reason I'm not running four is lack of green mana symbols.
I think the two Emrakuls are debatable. The hardcast trigger on tPE is much easier to reach, but tAT is much more resistant to removal and wrecks the board in a way that cripples most opponents even if they survive a hit. For that reason, I prefer tAT. Let's face it: they both have CMC=9 anyway, and you're running tons of mana ramping.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB