In my experience, MTGO in the tournament room is about as competitive as a 'real' tournament.
I experienced that slowrolling vs expected removal on your permanents is huge. We attack the environment on mana, generally speaking. We 'out-mana' them with our devotion mechanic / Arbor Elf + Utopia Sprawl and might use a Command to slow theirs down. It does not mean that you have to use all your mana every turn. Keep stuff in hand to rebuild, play smart. Use the beasts from Garruk at times to create pressure instead of hand cards.
Is removal bad for us? Yes, like any deck that uses permanents, we prefer to keep them around. Can we outrace 1-3 removal/discard cards? Yes, if we pay attention to the opponent, pick our battles and tempo and at times get a little lucky with our draws (hey, it is a card game, a little luck is part of the game design).
The reason for our quest to a reliable decklist comes down to this exact issue. Have the mana engine work fast enough and still have enough threats to keep pressure after a blow to our board. A very important reason to use scaleable threats like Wolfbriar Elemental and Walking Ballista and similar.
Since running a version with Devoted Druid online I have won a lot with that build. It uses Primal Command as tutor/control/threat. The flexibility to adapt to the situation with that card is huge. But the main problem, with the extra mana engine, is balancing enough threats vs the engine. I had pretty much controlled the tempo of the game, got him low in life, he stabilized on board but with no cards, just like me. We both ran out of gas. Then, our topdecks are huge IF we make them. But we have many dead draws at that point (basically every mana card) and that time, I lost after bricking 3 or 4 times. This is partly off set with Planeswalkers by some, could be tried with more carddraw, GY strategies (flashback or something) etc. Whomever finds the golden egg, please share! I do not care which color you use either ( we are great at splashing).
I think we play a similar build, if you're using Druids to power out fast Primal Commands.
I think your conclusions regarding how to handle removal are spot-on. In effect, we don't need to flood the board; we just need to play one significant threat that forces a removal spell. Many of our threats are actually quite resistant or immune to Lightning Bolt, Fatal Push, and Abrupt Decay. This means something like a Titan has a reasonable chance of drawing out a Damnation-like spell. This is also a reason I'm a huge fan of having Treetops to fetch, since it makes Titan also count as such a persistent threat (plus enabling better overruns).
Fighting against control is frequently a battle of attrition, in which you are right that we have a disadvantage in how many mana-cards we play. I often SB these out for that reason. However, as indicated earlier, many of their answers have limited shelf-life against us: we can wait out their countermagic until only Cryptic Command is any good, and Fatal Push isn't very effective. Sometimes, we have a threat that is so unanswerable it can just go off and win on its own (usually out of the SB, Chameleon Colossus against BGx, Thrun against UWx).
Additionally, we have other cards that can give us virtual card advantage by improving our effective threat density. Titan and Courser do this by decreasing the number of lands in the deck. Kessig Wolf Run and Rhonas mean that any mana-producing Elf or Bird can suddenly get very dangerous. And Eternal Witness can be looked at as a duplicate of whatever the most dangerous threat they've already stopped is (unless they had PtE).
The BGx matches aren't great, but they're not that bad either. UWx tends to be easier, but can take a long time to finish.
To circle back to Anthony's BTE version - I think it's definitely designed to beat the meta. Having played lots of BTE it is less consistent, but much quicker and more powerful. Against a shadow, rock, 8rack meta it is much worse,but against the Tier 1 linear decks, it has a lot more game. Plus, there's nothing like the feeling of a Turn 2 Primeval Titan
I tend to find the turn 2 Titan play unlikely and risky (requiring an Elf/Bird/Sprawl, Nykthos, 2 BTE, and another Sprawl or BTE), but it is beautiful if it happens. I still think I'd be hesitant to go for it if Pact were involved, because losing to Pyroclasm would be embaressing. Still, I think there is probably an even more all-in build than the one he showed. His still maintains toolbox & go-wide elements.
My issue with the Vizier-Druid deck, as I stated earlier in the thread, is that if the Druid dies before we can accrue any value out of it, then it is probably worse than Visionary, although it is much more likely to be a target for removal, potentially letting another threat wreak havoc later or a mana dork do its thing. Also, if the combo is disrupted, I find the deck to be strictly worse than my Garruk Green deck vs. basically every deck except Burn.
On another note! I added Sigarda, Host of Herons to the G/w Planeswalker deck a while before even reading the flavor text and now I realize that it's much better for the deck than I thought!
Another card I'm considering more now is Dauntless Escort to go with the white splash, since it could help a lot against Anger of the Gods or Sweltering Suns and wrath effects. Whisperwood is better in most situations, and just a better all-around card, but Escort is better vs. Anger, and it ALSO can be tutored and is easier to cast.
Regarding Devotion Druid: most of us aren't measuring it against Visionary, but against BTE. It also lets me get away with playing one or two less Birds of Paradise (you may remember I was dead-set on 3-4 for a long time).
Sigarda is pretty powerful, though I'd argue not the best we can do for 5 mana.
Another option besides Dauntless Escort is Selfless Spirit, which is even cheaper mana-wise, and flies.
When I get closer to tinkering with Dinos, I might try out the older Gruul aggro versions of devotion to see if he'd fit (BTE, Boggart Ram Gang, etc). I have yet to play a version like that, and I think it would be good experience to have for expanding my devotion foundation.
Thank God someone on this thread is civil and constructive enough to point out exactly what I've been discussing. And you play in the tournament room. If the other guy did too, he'd know that most of the points you confirm about the deck stalling is true. The Devotion Build isn't even in the current meta because of inconsistency and that's why we're all here trying to put together something that works for each of our own personal play styles.
And to back up my point about the guy who dissed my posts---he played with slow hands in a tournament environment. That's an auto loss in Modern competitive. Especially for Devotion. Control players get to goldfish for enough counters and removal to keep you at bay if you play slow. If he ever played in an MTG Online Tournament environment it sure doesn't show because slow hands only work in random matches on MTG Online but NOT in the tournament room.
@Just_Me made an outstanding point about balancing threats. In one tournament I beat a poison deck just because he was slow and I had Boggart Ram Gang as a blocker to wither down his attacker to the GY. Then I came out with Ruric to stall him some more, until I got the Primal Command lock for a Craterhoof win. I played with the 3 x Plow Under variation of the Genesis Wave build in this thread for my first two tournaments then a more Gruul heavy build, both without Walking Ballista yet because Aether Revolt had just come out.
I'm not out here to malign anyone and I'm just throwing out ideas and listening to you guys vouch for tech that I or anyone else might be able to use for their specific Devotion preferences. Like dark view guys likes to use Path to Exile, others prefer a more Green grounded tech, some prefer Vizier combo, I like Mirrorweave and Primalcrux as my version of Craterhoof. Anyway I hope we get more feedback from guys like @Just_Me who does offer sound encouragement and does not outright dismiss what I've pointed out because our deck is rather inconsistent because it needs a board for devotion mana flooding, and that's what I've been discussing all the time.
The Devotion Druid combo is in my surmise as much good as the infinite wolves combo because you get something infinite for a wincon that is impossible to stop whether he kickers wolfbriar elemental or a walking ballista for lethal, and it is a wincon playstyle that is a PERSONAL preference as much as everyone else's wincon of choice.
Why don't you guys list the Devotion wincons available in your particular decks and what stops those from playing out? From what @Just_Me said and from what I've played against, stalling the devotion engine is killer. Even from the report from Lord Dark View, when the engine is stalled either from a spreading seas or from spot removal or if you play a slooooow hand, you lose.
The Devoted Druid and Vizier combo is one workaround to devotion board stalling and when comboed with Walking Ballista or [card]Wolfbriar Elemental[/card is as much GG as infinited wolves and infinite life potential of my deck].
I don't agree that it is a weaker card choice per se because it still provides a wincon opponents don't expect so you can still sneak in a Game 1 win and in any tournament, Game 1 wins are 90 percent of the battle. Consistency and smart SB wins the second and third games. The Green Garruk has its own advantages but Green Garruk can be lightning bolted and the only recursion is Eternal Witness so it actually evens out and neither version, aka Green Garruk nor Devoted Druid is particularly better than the other. It is your personal wincon or tech preference.
In my deck Leyline of Vitality does the infinite life loop when the Arcane Adaptation plus Turntimber Ranger combo is resolved. I still need a global haste enabler and the Urabrask suggestion was excellent. If I get massacred after testing the deck I'll own up to a bad design choice and go back to the Gruul Plow Under version and tweak that instead. But @Just_Me's advice on scalable threats gives me great hope on making the deck be a legit Devotion meta choice. But until that happens, make everyone's devotion monsters wincon rule.
I guess the topic that should be a good point for quibble is how to make the devotion board better, either with non-devotion tech which includes Devotion Druid and Vizier, plus a wincon like Ballista, or Timmy-seeming 2-card deals like Turntimber Ranger plus Arcane Adaptation especially when the opponent taps out or when you are both just playing off topdecking.
List some non-devotion capable alternative and explosive wincons built into the deck. The standard SB tech is known anyway for whomever we match up against.
The key word here is EXPLOSIVE non-devotion tech hiding in your deck or possible working options.
Some suggestions from me: Wrecking Ogre on a Primeime wincon, or Savage Beating as additional beatdown tech riffed off the Red Devotion build, works with Nylea God.
When I get closer to tinkering with Dinos, I might try out the older Gruul aggro versions of devotion to see if he'd fit (BTE, Boggart Ram Gang, etc). I have yet to play a version like that, and I think it would be good experience to have for expanding my devotion foundation.
I posted this theoretical deck list a few pages back, it might be a good place to start. It's hyper-aggressive, but if you start playing Carnage Tyrants and similar things, you probably just start displacing CoCo.
So I was just testing out a Martyr-Proc deck (thinking of replacing my Titan deck with it, since the latter just isn't competitive anymore) and ran up against someone playing Devotion. I had him pegged on it from the first turn basic Forest, Sprawl (Green). He was playing a version closer to Skrzypczak's: BTEs, Pacts, Oaths, Garruk Relentless, etc... though I did not see any Nissa. I lost 1-2, and the games felt close each time. It was an eye-opening experience: Garruk Relentless really is a potent and flexible card, and the deck is not nearly as all-in as I feared. I may start to tinker with it (though I doubt I'll ever play 4 Oaths).
Question: if you have an unflipped Garruk Relentless and a flipped one (Garruk, the Veil-Cursed), does the Legend rule require one be put into the graveyard? My gut says no (since they have different names), but I'm not sure.
If one is flipped then you do not have to sacrifice one to the legendary rule because they have different names. The legendary rule kicks in if there are two legendary cards on the battlefield with the same name.
Also, if you're talking about Amulet Titan, that deck IS still competitive and has put up good results in recent SCG Opens, it's just not played a tremendous amount and takes skill and practice.
I ALSO want to try looking at Aggro Devotion again, there's a lot of advantages to having an aggressively oriented deck that's meant to come out of the cage swinging immediately.
EDIT: unfortunately unable to make it to D.C., it's Halloween weekend and I don't want to miss events and I made plans with girls Definitely would have like to have been there.
I posted this theoretical deck list a few pages back, it might be a good place to start. It's hyper-aggressive, but if you start playing Carnage Tyrants and similar things, you probably just start displacing CoCo.
@Lord_Darkview, at first glance, your aggro list doesn't seem to take advantage of Nykthos enough to warrant its inclusion. There's Rhonas as a mana sink, but I think you could use more. Some number of Ballista would probably be good.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Ok all. It looks to have passed in a sense anyways; but I had a long, meandering response to the recent discourse on the thread that would have both bored everyone and when I read it back seemed somewhat condescending and obvious....so instead I’m taking a positive tact.
Devotion is a truly unique archetype in the sense that we have access to SOOO many cards. Most decks can’t reasonably play 4-7 drops like we can. This comes with definite restrictions (as we all learn when building Devotion decks) but more importantly it leads to situations where two people can both play a “viable” Green Devotion deck with as much as half of the deck being different cards!
This invariably leads to discussions of what is “best”. We are all hear to help tune and find the best ways to make Green Devotion the most competitive deck it can be in the Modern Format. We also have well over 200+ pages of past discussion (not to mention those of us that were here for the prior Primer which had another 100 pages or so.
Given this, it’s not possible to read the entire history of Devotion for a new reader. It is, however, to read at least 10-15 pages back to get a general sense of the most recent discussions (as would be incumbent on anyone joining any Primer/thread). These, however, are small technical things. What is more important is the atmosphere we foster for Devotion players.
I try (albeit not always successfully) to hear everyone’s ideas and provide positive feedback. Even if I may not think an idea is great, it can still be a really fun or interesting idea. I will still provide criticism (such as “my worry is that it is slower than just playing X”, etc) but will make sure to (a) do so in a way that is not condescending or “talking down”
Threads such as these are difficult sometimes because (a) generally in MTG forums the average poster is of above-average intelligence, (b) we all have a deck we feel strongly about based on our history with it and knowing the ins and outs that may not be easy to see unless actually played, and (c) we want to improve, so we don’t want to waste our or others’ time. This can lead to tips or criticisms that can come off as curt or rude even if that was not the intention. Sometimes, however, that is the intention.
Regardless, there is no place here for that. We work together to better everyone’s experience. We play in different meta’s for different reasons. We can all of course ask questions and provide feedback. We just have to do it in a way that is positive and inviting. My biggest fear is that someone reading and thinking about posting will be scared to because they are afraid they will be “attacked” or insulted for a question/idea. Especially newer players.
I won’t point any fingers this time (although in the future I may have to be more specific if it becomes an issue that effects the thread long-term); but (a) everyone on here has a sense of competitive play (very few people take the time to play with any frequency on a thread unless they are pretty serious about the deck and play) and (b) we have to ability to be positive in our responses (even when providing criticism).
The good news is that we are FAR from having issues near the level of some other threads I’ve seen ;). It looks like the biggest issue has already passed; so we can get back to improving Devotion!
So I was just testing out a Martyr-Proc deck (thinking of replacing my Titan deck with it, since the latter just isn't competitive anymore) and ran up against someone playing Devotion. I had him pegged on it from the first turn basic Forest, Sprawl (Green). He was playing a version closer to Skrzypczak's: BTEs, Pacts, Oaths, Garruk Relentless, etc... though I did not see any Nissa. I lost 1-2, and the games felt close each time. It was an eye-opening experience: Garruk Relentless really is a potent and flexible card, and the deck is not nearly as all-in as I feared. I may start to tinker with it (though I doubt I'll ever play 4 Oaths).
Question: if you have an unflipped Garruk Relentless and a flipped one (Garruk, the Veil-Cursed), does the Legend rule require one be put into the graveyard? My gut says no (since they have different names), but I'm not sure.
How interesting. I’ve never actually played against someone playing Devotion (outside of testing). Garruk Relentless has been great in my Garruk Green deck not only as means if removal; but as a surprisingly powerful tutor. I likely should tweak the deck a little; but you can’t go wrong with more Garruk’s!!! (Of course I’m pretty biased in that front...)
How interesting. I’ve never actually played against someone playing Devotion (outside of testing). Garruk Relentless has been great in my Garruk Green deck not only as means if removal; but as a surprisingly powerful tutor. I likely should tweak the deck a little; but you can’t go wrong with more Garruk’s!!! (Of course I’m pretty biased in that front...)
I've run against one or two other Devotion players online. I'm now trying a list with 10 PWs just to see how it plays. The one issue with Relentless is that making 2/2s isn't very good, so you really do want a removal target, or a Ballista/Atarka to deal a point of damage to it, or something of your own with a point of power and, ideally, more than three points of toughness. Courser is the only thing I have that fits the bill right now.
PS: Addendum: I'm trying to figure out if there's reason or room for a single copy of Growing Rites in this version. Generating creatures shouldn't be a problem, but with the low creature density and so few good targets and outlets for the mana, I'm not sure it's worth it.
Walkers are generally a strong option for devotion (they give us the “added spell” per turn with flexibility while also being a permanent). Of course; I am biased (as I’ve played some form of “Walker Devotion” for years now...With my 2nd devotion deck being the one that tends to vary). Oath of Nissa obviously helped; but even before that Walkers tended to fit well into many styles Green Devotion. I have found; however; that the balance between Walker and creature is extremely important. Having bigger bodies to block for them is big.
I do like having access to Courser and Carven Caryatid for the very reason you mentioned with Garruk Relentless...I posted a recap a while back about games I had won “fighting Caryatid and getting a Cratherhoof the next turn...so it can be quite powerful. Relentless can be frustrating at times when you just make a token; but I guess at least you have a permanent making a few tokens
I have been focused recently on my Devoted build (as my Garruk Green build is pretty much “set” and I wanted to explore the combo. I did take a small hiatus to look into a build focusing on Eldritch Evolution (with cards like Strangleroot Geist and Kitchen Finks...
I been placing more attention on cards that have been over performing (Whisperwod Elemental, Polukranos, Thlia outbof the board, etc.) to see if that is the best way for me to build the deck. I am playing small tourney tonight; so I’ll recap when finished (and post my other recap following it).
@CurdBros:
Evolution is a cool trick, though it's no Natural Order. Hitting the balance across the curve is the trick. The best stuff starts at 6, which is beyond the reach of Finks.
@Uegjo:
I've had a few iterations over the past few days, and I took a Druid build to the SCG Cincinnati Modern Classic. Went 4-4 (last page has the full report, probably should have gone 5-3 at least). I've hit a bit of a mental dead-end there, so experimenting with Relentless for a bit. Panglacial Wurm is a cool bit of tech, but drawing it in hand doesn't feel great. If you have a free slot, it definitely is nice to know you can pull up a big threat after a wipe. I'm not sure it's necessary if you play a build with high threat-density.
@CurdBros:
Evolution is a cool trick, though it's no Natural Order. Hitting the balance across the curve is the trick. The best stuff starts at 6, which is beyond the reach of Finks.
@Uegjo:
I've had a few iterations over the past few days, and I took a Druid build to the SCG Cincinnati Modern Classic. Went 4-4 (last page has the full report, probably should have gone 5-3 at least). I've hit a bit of a mental dead-end there, so experimenting with Relentless for a bit. Panglacial Wurm is a cool bit of tech, but drawing it in hand doesn't feel great. If you have a free slot, it definitely is nice to know you can pull up a big threat after a wipe. I'm not sure it's necessary if you play a build with high threat-density.
Yeah...that’s why the hiatus ended up being a small one :). The only way Eldritvh Evolution seemed worth it was if trying to play the Archangel of Thune/Spike Feeder combo....and even then it felt a little underwhelming. It was a fun thought process though.
Here's a change in topic. I play a t&n and a tron deck that trys to abuse doubling season. I found an infinite combo using doubling season and jace, cunning castaway. Think t&n can get it out before turn four? Season is the issue, it has to be on board first to go infinite with jace.
I'm trying to work on a decklist now. Any suggestions?
Guntius do you mind sharing your Tooth and Nail list ? And yes it can go out on turn 3 easily if not disrupted. That’s why I think the deck is better positioned right now than Genesis Wave / Craterhoof variant
On the nut draw I know it can, its consistently that I'm after. I still think 3 seasons is the max but I'm using four jace's right now to test, getting two and no season isn't good. oath of nissa I haven't tried yet. I can't play any paper matches to test it until tmrw but I'll try to get online tonight and get a few games in if I can.
My list(s) is pages back , the latest is still GR using kiki-jiki and worlspine wurm with primetime backup. I splashed blue by adding a few breeding pools and really lean on my sprawls and arbor elf to cast jace. I don't think I added any other blue.
Wife has some friends over,I'll probably sleeve oath into it tonight so I'll post with the list I'm going to test.
On the nut draw I know it can, its consistently that I'm after. I still think 3 seasons is the max but I'm using four jace's right now to test, getting two and no season isn't good. oath of nissa I haven't tried yet. I can't play any paper matches to test it until tmrw but I'll try to get online tonight and get a few games in if I can.
My list(s) is pages back , the latest is still GR using kiki-jiki and worlspine wurm with primetime backup. I splashed blue by adding a few breeding pools and really lean on my sprawls and arbor elf to cast jace. I don't think I added any other blue.
Wife has some friends over,I'll probably sleeve oath into it tonight so I'll post with the list I'm going to test.
There are a few doubling season decks in the history of our thread, but I
One tiny item I will mention is that the Jace, Cunning Castaway + Doubling Season will make infinite Jace's (and infinite 2/2's) but you do have to give your opponent another turn before you win the game.
Having said that, a general "Core" of Walker decks in the past has utilized Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Garruk, Birds, and Sylvan Caryadid along with Doubling Season and a huge Package of Walkers to fill out the deck. Todd Stevens has had some success with Doubling Season and walkers in the past, so Googling "Doubling Stevens" or Todd Stevens Walker Deck will lead to some great insight. I am a fan of his Worship use in the board.
Funilly enough, another card that I ended up playing quite a bit tonight may help you...Thalia's Lancers
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Update on Current Testing
Recently I've been playing a lot of "Devoted Devotion"...I've enjoyed the deck and consider the Devoted Druid/Vizier of Remedies package a for sure viable package in Devotion. I had a TON of "oops I win" games with the Devoted Devotion deck, and t is a blast to play. My version, however (with Chords, etc.) felt like it had two problems:
- I felt like the only real downside(s) to the deck are that (1) there are games where you "stall" out. They are not as plentiful as the games you win just by hitting the combo..but it is something that happened with enough frequency for me to note it. Because it plays so many mana creatures; you can run into not having enough threats/card draw...I do think this can be mitigated and is probably less of an issue with the Primal Command versions...and (2) the game play is a little more "linear" in nature than decks I am used to playing (with more Walkers, etc.) It does make the deck easier to "hate".
I did notice some things I really liked though; which of course got my brain going A few of these were:
1. I found Chord of Calling to be quite powerful even outside of the combo.
2. Whisperwood Elemental really mitigates some of the tougher things we can run into (board wipes, killing all colored permanents, etc.) while being a powerful "go wide" option all his own.
3. When I sided into a more disruptive deck I tended to win more often.
This led me to build a slightly different deck for my tourney tonight (it wasn't a super important tourney...just an 8-man Modern even we set up). Here is the deck (very rough of course):
I know the deck seems a little crazy at first (and there are admittedly a few choices that may not end up staying in the deck) and I wouldn't mind getting a Garruk Relentless in there...but the deck idea is simply to ramp into more disruptive elements and win the game by building our board while we restrict the opponent from their game plan. It is definitely more of a "have to play the deck" type deck; but I'll provide my full write up tomorrow morning/afternoon....I just wanted to post it as (a) I promised a LONG time ago to post every single idea/decklist I ever try out and (b) it allows others to chime in with both criticisms and to use whatever ideas they like within the deck.
I have had a LOT of success with Karn in the past, so that was a big pull to this deck. In such lists I generally run Genesis Hydra; but I wanted to give Chord a shot (as Thalia's Lancers gave me the tool to tutor for Walkers without Hydra and Chord can allow me to play very specific interaction in TKS, Acidic Slime, and/or Polukranos.)
I have been pleasantly surprised with Thalia's Lancers. It likely will take this deck to a slightly different place (as it allows for us to tutor for ANY Walker, Nykthos, Polukranos, Elesh Norn, etc.). It also is a sizeable body for a Garruk Overrun, etc.. I could see a Thalia's Lancer's-centric deck (with just Garruk, Karn, and some specific Walkers/Legends) being a thing in Devotion. I haven't put a second one in the deck; but I could see the deck moving that way as I play/tune it.
Here's a change in topic. I play a t&n and a tron deck that trys to abuse doubling season. I found an infinite combo using doubling season and jace, cunning castaway. Think t&n can get it out before turn four? Season is the issue, it has to be on board first to go infinite with jace.
I'm trying to work on a decklist now. Any suggestions?
Tooth and Nail is all about creatures, right? get the two winning creatures of your choice as soon as you hit 9 mana. Why try to add 8 cards (4 Jace, 4 Season) into a deck that aims at a completely different combo?
Having said that, Any big mana deck with Doubling Season (devotion, Tron or otherwise) should have Walking Ballista.
I also think that more Walkers would be nice, especially 3 drop Nissa for tokens and counters and early devotion.
I'd actually tend to agree with this a lot. I don't think one really benefits from jamming clonya-Jace in a TnN shell. However, I think that Ballista does give us a missing component to really make multiple copies of Doubling Season viable. If you're splashing blue it seems easy to add Jace. I'd love to see you guys put together a decklist for this, it seems really interesting.
This would be my starting point. Queen + Season is sweet. So is Nissa in this build. Behemoth is there to go lethal with his haste after Jace went nuts with his illussions. Same as Sarkhan, it gives haste and the ultimate is very sweet with Season in play. Downside is, no way to find Season (Wargate?) and I think this deck is not better as regular Walkers as promoted by CurdBros, which has it's own issues compared to more creature minded builds. BUT, this deck is likely to turns a lot of heads if it does land a Season and starts going nuts with walkers.
What a fun deck!!! I love the idea that a lot of the cards are just plain great with Season in play (i.e. it is different from the five color "get the combo or lose" decks. I think you definitely could tune this to be great.
I do think the deck would benefit from even a 1-of Wargate. I know it is a "fringe" card; but being able to cast for 3 in a pinch to get a Nykthos was something I LOVED when I played it. That, and it does help make sideboarding a little easier (as it can act as an additional "copy" of any sideboard permanent.
While very different from Walker builds I've championed in the past; I do think this is different enough to be considered it's own "thing". It has weaknesses the Walker decks don't; but it also has strengths the other Walker decks doesn't (and the other Walker Decks have weaknesses that this deck doesn't)...I think with tuning you could come up with something very powerful (and that attacks from a different enough angle that many modern decks may struggle with).
So it’s no surprise but I’ve removed Vraska from the main. I like the card; but not sure it is worth stretching the mana. Switched it with an Elspeth Suns Champion (currently just an “open slot”. Few notes before write up:
1. Elesh Norn is absolute incredible.
2. I am seriously considering playing two copies of Gavony Township. It is really strong (because the deck has a “go wide” nature to it between the dorks, Visionaries, Whisperwoods, Elspeth, Elesh Norn, etc.) and helps with the random times TKS ends up in our hand (rather than being Chorded for...although Nykthos makes colorless too).
3. Would like to splash a third color; but I’m not entirely sure it’s worth it. Chord, Bird, and Sprawl help fix; but the card would have to be amazing against poor match ups to make it worth it (it if the sideboard has a large hole that can’t be filled with Green or White.
(Obviously probably will play Ruruc Thar either way...and may end splashind red if possible).
Another thought/question:
1. Is it possible to life-gain your way out of Storm and/or Ad Nauseum (maybe even Valakut’s reach)? If so, life-gain may be an option we have vs some of our tougher match ups.
I think we play a similar build, if you're using Druids to power out fast Primal Commands.
I think your conclusions regarding how to handle removal are spot-on. In effect, we don't need to flood the board; we just need to play one significant threat that forces a removal spell. Many of our threats are actually quite resistant or immune to Lightning Bolt, Fatal Push, and Abrupt Decay. This means something like a Titan has a reasonable chance of drawing out a Damnation-like spell. This is also a reason I'm a huge fan of having Treetops to fetch, since it makes Titan also count as such a persistent threat (plus enabling better overruns).
Fighting against control is frequently a battle of attrition, in which you are right that we have a disadvantage in how many mana-cards we play. I often SB these out for that reason. However, as indicated earlier, many of their answers have limited shelf-life against us: we can wait out their countermagic until only Cryptic Command is any good, and Fatal Push isn't very effective. Sometimes, we have a threat that is so unanswerable it can just go off and win on its own (usually out of the SB, Chameleon Colossus against BGx, Thrun against UWx).
Additionally, we have other cards that can give us virtual card advantage by improving our effective threat density. Titan and Courser do this by decreasing the number of lands in the deck. Kessig Wolf Run and Rhonas mean that any mana-producing Elf or Bird can suddenly get very dangerous. And Eternal Witness can be looked at as a duplicate of whatever the most dangerous threat they've already stopped is (unless they had PtE).
The BGx matches aren't great, but they're not that bad either. UWx tends to be easier, but can take a long time to finish.
I tend to find the turn 2 Titan play unlikely and risky (requiring an Elf/Bird/Sprawl, Nykthos, 2 BTE, and another Sprawl or BTE), but it is beautiful if it happens. I still think I'd be hesitant to go for it if Pact were involved, because losing to Pyroclasm would be embaressing. Still, I think there is probably an even more all-in build than the one he showed. His still maintains toolbox & go-wide elements.
Regarding Devotion Druid: most of us aren't measuring it against Visionary, but against BTE. It also lets me get away with playing one or two less Birds of Paradise (you may remember I was dead-set on 3-4 for a long time).
Sigarda is pretty powerful, though I'd argue not the best we can do for 5 mana.
Another option besides Dauntless Escort is Selfless Spirit, which is even cheaper mana-wise, and flies.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Thank God someone on this thread is civil and constructive enough to point out exactly what I've been discussing. And you play in the tournament room. If the other guy did too, he'd know that most of the points you confirm about the deck stalling is true. The Devotion Build isn't even in the current meta because of inconsistency and that's why we're all here trying to put together something that works for each of our own personal play styles.
And to back up my point about the guy who dissed my posts---he played with slow hands in a tournament environment. That's an auto loss in Modern competitive. Especially for Devotion. Control players get to goldfish for enough counters and removal to keep you at bay if you play slow. If he ever played in an MTG Online Tournament environment it sure doesn't show because slow hands only work in random matches on MTG Online but NOT in the tournament room.
@Just_Me made an outstanding point about balancing threats. In one tournament I beat a poison deck just because he was slow and I had Boggart Ram Gang as a blocker to wither down his attacker to the GY. Then I came out with Ruric to stall him some more, until I got the Primal Command lock for a Craterhoof win. I played with the 3 x Plow Under variation of the Genesis Wave build in this thread for my first two tournaments then a more Gruul heavy build, both without Walking Ballista yet because Aether Revolt had just come out.
I'm not out here to malign anyone and I'm just throwing out ideas and listening to you guys vouch for tech that I or anyone else might be able to use for their specific Devotion preferences. Like dark view guys likes to use Path to Exile, others prefer a more Green grounded tech, some prefer Vizier combo, I like Mirrorweave and Primalcrux as my version of Craterhoof. Anyway I hope we get more feedback from guys like @Just_Me who does offer sound encouragement and does not outright dismiss what I've pointed out because our deck is rather inconsistent because it needs a board for devotion mana flooding, and that's what I've been discussing all the time.
The Devotion Druid combo is in my surmise as much good as the infinite wolves combo because you get something infinite for a wincon that is impossible to stop whether he kickers wolfbriar elemental or a walking ballista for lethal, and it is a wincon playstyle that is a PERSONAL preference as much as everyone else's wincon of choice.
Why don't you guys list the Devotion wincons available in your particular decks and what stops those from playing out? From what @Just_Me said and from what I've played against, stalling the devotion engine is killer. Even from the report from Lord Dark View, when the engine is stalled either from a spreading seas or from spot removal or if you play a slooooow hand, you lose.
The Devoted Druid and Vizier combo is one workaround to devotion board stalling and when comboed with Walking Ballista or [card]Wolfbriar Elemental[/card is as much GG as infinited wolves and infinite life potential of my deck].
I don't agree that it is a weaker card choice per se because it still provides a wincon opponents don't expect so you can still sneak in a Game 1 win and in any tournament, Game 1 wins are 90 percent of the battle. Consistency and smart SB wins the second and third games. The Green Garruk has its own advantages but Green Garruk can be lightning bolted and the only recursion is Eternal Witness so it actually evens out and neither version, aka Green Garruk nor Devoted Druid is particularly better than the other. It is your personal wincon or tech preference.
In my deck Leyline of Vitality does the infinite life loop when the Arcane Adaptation plus Turntimber Ranger combo is resolved. I still need a global haste enabler and the Urabrask suggestion was excellent. If I get massacred after testing the deck I'll own up to a bad design choice and go back to the Gruul Plow Under version and tweak that instead. But @Just_Me's advice on scalable threats gives me great hope on making the deck be a legit Devotion meta choice. But until that happens, make everyone's devotion monsters wincon rule.
List some non-devotion capable alternative and explosive wincons built into the deck. The standard SB tech is known anyway for whomever we match up against.
The key word here is EXPLOSIVE non-devotion tech hiding in your deck or possible working options.
Some suggestions from me: Wrecking Ogre on a Primeime wincon, or Savage Beating as additional beatdown tech riffed off the Red Devotion build, works with Nylea God.
I posted this theoretical deck list a few pages back, it might be a good place to start. It's hyper-aggressive, but if you start playing Carnage Tyrants and similar things, you probably just start displacing CoCo.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Question: if you have an unflipped Garruk Relentless and a flipped one (Garruk, the Veil-Cursed), does the Legend rule require one be put into the graveyard? My gut says no (since they have different names), but I'm not sure.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Also, if you're talking about Amulet Titan, that deck IS still competitive and has put up good results in recent SCG Opens, it's just not played a tremendous amount and takes skill and practice.
I ALSO want to try looking at Aggro Devotion again, there's a lot of advantages to having an aggressively oriented deck that's meant to come out of the cage swinging immediately.
EDIT: unfortunately unable to make it to D.C., it's Halloween weekend and I don't want to miss events and I made plans with girls Definitely would have like to have been there.
@Lord_Darkview, at first glance, your aggro list doesn't seem to take advantage of Nykthos enough to warrant its inclusion. There's Rhonas as a mana sink, but I think you could use more. Some number of Ballista would probably be good.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Devotion is a truly unique archetype in the sense that we have access to SOOO many cards. Most decks can’t reasonably play 4-7 drops like we can. This comes with definite restrictions (as we all learn when building Devotion decks) but more importantly it leads to situations where two people can both play a “viable” Green Devotion deck with as much as half of the deck being different cards!
This invariably leads to discussions of what is “best”. We are all hear to help tune and find the best ways to make Green Devotion the most competitive deck it can be in the Modern Format. We also have well over 200+ pages of past discussion (not to mention those of us that were here for the prior Primer which had another 100 pages or so.
Given this, it’s not possible to read the entire history of Devotion for a new reader. It is, however, to read at least 10-15 pages back to get a general sense of the most recent discussions (as would be incumbent on anyone joining any Primer/thread). These, however, are small technical things. What is more important is the atmosphere we foster for Devotion players.
I try (albeit not always successfully) to hear everyone’s ideas and provide positive feedback. Even if I may not think an idea is great, it can still be a really fun or interesting idea. I will still provide criticism (such as “my worry is that it is slower than just playing X”, etc) but will make sure to (a) do so in a way that is not condescending or “talking down”
Threads such as these are difficult sometimes because (a) generally in MTG forums the average poster is of above-average intelligence, (b) we all have a deck we feel strongly about based on our history with it and knowing the ins and outs that may not be easy to see unless actually played, and (c) we want to improve, so we don’t want to waste our or others’ time. This can lead to tips or criticisms that can come off as curt or rude even if that was not the intention. Sometimes, however, that is the intention.
Regardless, there is no place here for that. We work together to better everyone’s experience. We play in different meta’s for different reasons. We can all of course ask questions and provide feedback. We just have to do it in a way that is positive and inviting. My biggest fear is that someone reading and thinking about posting will be scared to because they are afraid they will be “attacked” or insulted for a question/idea. Especially newer players.
I won’t point any fingers this time (although in the future I may have to be more specific if it becomes an issue that effects the thread long-term); but (a) everyone on here has a sense of competitive play (very few people take the time to play with any frequency on a thread unless they are pretty serious about the deck and play) and (b) we have to ability to be positive in our responses (even when providing criticism).
The good news is that we are FAR from having issues near the level of some other threads I’ve seen ;). It looks like the biggest issue has already passed; so we can get back to improving Devotion!
How interesting. I’ve never actually played against someone playing Devotion (outside of testing). Garruk Relentless has been great in my Garruk Green deck not only as means if removal; but as a surprisingly powerful tutor. I likely should tweak the deck a little; but you can’t go wrong with more Garruk’s!!! (Of course I’m pretty biased in that front...)
I've run against one or two other Devotion players online. I'm now trying a list with 10 PWs just to see how it plays. The one issue with Relentless is that making 2/2s isn't very good, so you really do want a removal target, or a Ballista/Atarka to deal a point of damage to it, or something of your own with a point of power and, ideally, more than three points of toughness. Courser is the only thing I have that fits the bill right now.
PS: Addendum: I'm trying to figure out if there's reason or room for a single copy of Growing Rites in this version. Generating creatures shouldn't be a problem, but with the low creature density and so few good targets and outlets for the mana, I'm not sure it's worth it.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I do like having access to Courser and Carven Caryatid for the very reason you mentioned with Garruk Relentless...I posted a recap a while back about games I had won “fighting Caryatid and getting a Cratherhoof the next turn...so it can be quite powerful. Relentless can be frustrating at times when you just make a token; but I guess at least you have a permanent making a few tokens
I have been focused recently on my Devoted build (as my Garruk Green build is pretty much “set” and I wanted to explore the combo. I did take a small hiatus to look into a build focusing on Eldritch Evolution (with cards like Strangleroot Geist and Kitchen Finks...
I been placing more attention on cards that have been over performing (Whisperwod Elemental, Polukranos, Thlia outbof the board, etc.) to see if that is the best way for me to build the deck. I am playing small tourney tonight; so I’ll recap when finished (and post my other recap following it).
Evolution is a cool trick, though it's no Natural Order. Hitting the balance across the curve is the trick. The best stuff starts at 6, which is beyond the reach of Finks.
@Uegjo:
I've had a few iterations over the past few days, and I took a Druid build to the SCG Cincinnati Modern Classic. Went 4-4 (last page has the full report, probably should have gone 5-3 at least). I've hit a bit of a mental dead-end there, so experimenting with Relentless for a bit. Panglacial Wurm is a cool bit of tech, but drawing it in hand doesn't feel great. If you have a free slot, it definitely is nice to know you can pull up a big threat after a wipe. I'm not sure it's necessary if you play a build with high threat-density.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Yeah...that’s why the hiatus ended up being a small one :). The only way Eldritvh Evolution seemed worth it was if trying to play the Archangel of Thune/Spike Feeder combo....and even then it felt a little underwhelming. It was a fun thought process though.
I'm trying to work on a decklist now. Any suggestions?
My list(s) is pages back , the latest is still GR using kiki-jiki and worlspine wurm with primetime backup. I splashed blue by adding a few breeding pools and really lean on my sprawls and arbor elf to cast jace. I don't think I added any other blue.
Wife has some friends over,I'll probably sleeve oath into it tonight so I'll post with the list I'm going to test.
There are a few doubling season decks in the history of our thread, but I
One tiny item I will mention is that the Jace, Cunning Castaway + Doubling Season will make infinite Jace's (and infinite 2/2's) but you do have to give your opponent another turn before you win the game.
Having said that, a general "Core" of Walker decks in the past has utilized Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Garruk, Birds, and Sylvan Caryadid along with Doubling Season and a huge Package of Walkers to fill out the deck. Todd Stevens has had some success with Doubling Season and walkers in the past, so Googling "Doubling Stevens" or Todd Stevens Walker Deck will lead to some great insight. I am a fan of his Worship use in the board.
Funilly enough, another card that I ended up playing quite a bit tonight may help you...Thalia's Lancers
_______
Update on Current Testing
Recently I've been playing a lot of "Devoted Devotion"...I've enjoyed the deck and consider the Devoted Druid/Vizier of Remedies package a for sure viable package in Devotion. I had a TON of "oops I win" games with the Devoted Devotion deck, and t is a blast to play. My version, however (with Chords, etc.) felt like it had two problems:
- I felt like the only real downside(s) to the deck are that (1) there are games where you "stall" out. They are not as plentiful as the games you win just by hitting the combo..but it is something that happened with enough frequency for me to note it. Because it plays so many mana creatures; you can run into not having enough threats/card draw...I do think this can be mitigated and is probably less of an issue with the Primal Command versions...and (2) the game play is a little more "linear" in nature than decks I am used to playing (with more Walkers, etc.) It does make the deck easier to "hate".
I did notice some things I really liked though; which of course got my brain going A few of these were:
1. I found Chord of Calling to be quite powerful even outside of the combo.
2. Whisperwood Elemental really mitigates some of the tougher things we can run into (board wipes, killing all colored permanents, etc.) while being a powerful "go wide" option all his own.
3. When I sided into a more disruptive deck I tended to win more often.
This led me to build a slightly different deck for my tourney tonight (it wasn't a super important tourney...just an 8-man Modern even we set up). Here is the deck (very rough of course):
4x Arbor Elf
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
Support/Card Draw/Chord-Bodies (10)
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
2x Whisperwood Elemental
3x Chord of Calling
1x Thalia's Lancers
Disruption/Win Cons (9)
1x Polukranos, World Eater
1x Thought-Knot Seer
1x Acidic Slime
1x Elspeth, Sun’s Champion
2x Karn, Liberated
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2x Walking Ballista
7x Green Fetch
6x Forest
2x Temple Garden
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Gavony Township
I know the deck seems a little crazy at first (and there are admittedly a few choices that may not end up staying in the deck) and I wouldn't mind getting a Garruk Relentless in there...but the deck idea is simply to ramp into more disruptive elements and win the game by building our board while we restrict the opponent from their game plan. It is definitely more of a "have to play the deck" type deck; but I'll provide my full write up tomorrow morning/afternoon....I just wanted to post it as (a) I promised a LONG time ago to post every single idea/decklist I ever try out and (b) it allows others to chime in with both criticisms and to use whatever ideas they like within the deck.
I have had a LOT of success with Karn in the past, so that was a big pull to this deck. In such lists I generally run Genesis Hydra; but I wanted to give Chord a shot (as Thalia's Lancers gave me the tool to tutor for Walkers without Hydra and Chord can allow me to play very specific interaction in TKS, Acidic Slime, and/or Polukranos.)
I have been pleasantly surprised with Thalia's Lancers. It likely will take this deck to a slightly different place (as it allows for us to tutor for ANY Walker, Nykthos, Polukranos, Elesh Norn, etc.). It also is a sizeable body for a Garruk Overrun, etc.. I could see a Thalia's Lancer's-centric deck (with just Garruk, Karn, and some specific Walkers/Legends) being a thing in Devotion. I haven't put a second one in the deck; but I could see the deck moving that way as I play/tune it.
I'd actually tend to agree with this a lot. I don't think one really benefits from jamming clonya-Jace in a TnN shell. However, I think that Ballista does give us a missing component to really make multiple copies of Doubling Season viable. If you're splashing blue it seems easy to add Jace. I'd love to see you guys put together a decklist for this, it seems really interesting.
Edit: Fixed syntax.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
What a fun deck!!! I love the idea that a lot of the cards are just plain great with Season in play (i.e. it is different from the five color "get the combo or lose" decks. I think you definitely could tune this to be great.
I do think the deck would benefit from even a 1-of Wargate. I know it is a "fringe" card; but being able to cast for 3 in a pinch to get a Nykthos was something I LOVED when I played it. That, and it does help make sideboarding a little easier (as it can act as an additional "copy" of any sideboard permanent.
While very different from Walker builds I've championed in the past; I do think this is different enough to be considered it's own "thing". It has weaknesses the Walker decks don't; but it also has strengths the other Walker decks doesn't (and the other Walker Decks have weaknesses that this deck doesn't)...I think with tuning you could come up with something very powerful (and that attacks from a different enough angle that many modern decks may struggle with).
1. Elesh Norn is absolute incredible.
2. I am seriously considering playing two copies of Gavony Township. It is really strong (because the deck has a “go wide” nature to it between the dorks, Visionaries, Whisperwoods, Elspeth, Elesh Norn, etc.) and helps with the random times TKS ends up in our hand (rather than being Chorded for...although Nykthos makes colorless too).
3. Would like to splash a third color; but I’m not entirely sure it’s worth it. Chord, Bird, and Sprawl help fix; but the card would have to be amazing against poor match ups to make it worth it (it if the sideboard has a large hole that can’t be filled with Green or White.
(Obviously probably will play Ruruc Thar either way...and may end splashind red if possible).
Another thought/question:
1. Is it possible to life-gain your way out of Storm and/or Ad Nauseum (maybe even Valakut’s reach)? If so, life-gain may be an option we have vs some of our tougher match ups.