The real questions for Oath are: (1) what is the ratio of things you can find with it, and (2) what is the thing that would replace it.
In my case, the deck is finally getting tight. 20 land is as low as I can get, and I'd really like that additional Forest. 10 Elf/Sprawl/Bird, though the 11th helps. 4 Druid. 1 Vizier. 4 Command. 4 Ballista. And so on. There really isn't much to budge, so it's not "filling space and shrinking the deck," so much as "displacing something else."
In terms of what it can find, after turn 2, I pretty much always want it to be a big creature. There aren't a lot of those in the deck, and finding Command does not count. Since mana tends to be fine but threats aren't, I'm making the flip to Pact. If I didn't rely on Command and played more big creatures instead of the extended set of mana producers, it would make more sense to run 2x Oath.
It always surprises me when an ostensibly very good, mainstay card (especially a cantrip) finally reaches a tipping point where it is forced out. I actually expected 2x Oath to be a component forever.
Running 2-3 Pacts has been pretty good, thus far. Getting the balance right is not easy between mana and threats. Sadly, Oath is no longer capable of assisting on both sides.
I am debating between dropping to 2 Birds or 20 lands. The additional Bird is a 4% increase in the number of turn-1 accelerator drops. However, I have occasionally had that dreaded colorless-land opener. Having Druid makes me a bit more comfortable with the idea of playing a turn 1 Treetop Village or tapped Shockland and saying "go."
I'm pulling one Polukranos for a Thrun. I've only run into an issue with the legend rule once, but there are enough games where Thrun is a big enough wall to buy time. He's also really good versus control, and the ability to Pact him up is often game-winning. Finally, he's another source of Devotion that's tough to remove. Since there are few regenerators in the format outside of Elves but lots of countermagic, Supreme Verdict is replacing Wrath of God in many places. The only spell that is left to remove Thrun is Damnation. I could still see fitting a Carnage Tyrant as well, but I'm not sure if it's really better than Titan or Ruric Thar.
My record isn't spotless anymore, but it's well better than 3:1. I'm debating taking this to my first big tourney. The problem is that it's a deck with lots of decision-making, and I'm concerned that I might make more play errors later in the day as a result. I have two much simpler alternatives, but they don't perform quite as well, and are far more meta-dependent.
With a 20 Land Deck Oath makes it possible to decrease the amount of mulligans significantly.
However there seems to be a cut off, depending on how many non-targets you play.
It the traditional Devotion I played for a long time, I needed to trim them down because of Primal Commands. This is also the case when I side in Relic of Progenitus, Creeping Corrosion, etc I will cut oaths, since the deck gets filled with cards i cannot hit of oath.
However if the SB card can be hit by oath i'm leaving them in, since they increase the chance of hitting them.
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():
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Modern: GNykthos Devotion - Eldrazi Tron - RW Boros Burn - UW UW Control
Blast from the WAY past...Ross Merriam wrote an article about my very first deck in Devotion (Elf Devotion). I don't mean to suggest his article has anything to do with my past lists, etc. it doesn’t. I was just saying it was fun to see him mention the power of Nykthos in an Elf build as that is how I got my start in Devotion when it was first released(I.e. when Nykthos was spoiled).
I quit Elf Devotion because it didn’t seem any better (or terribly different outside of Wave) from the “regular” elves lists. To be honest, Merriams List is EXTREMELY similar to other Wlves lists (and less like my “Devoted Elves” lists of the past; but he does discuss Nykthos so I thought it was worth posting.
Maybe now there is more too it (with Devoted Druid being a Combo with Ezuri too...I mentioned it last week that I was fooling around with Elves; but in all honesty I’ve spent the last two weeks really focused on my Chord list. It is gong GREAT! I will play around with Elf Devotion again; but it likely will just look a ton like my current Chord list.
I’m currently 41-17 in matches with my Chord list (although there were small changes within this spread to the board and my 3-drop slot). I have a big write up outlining choices and match ups I’ll post tonight. I wasn’t going to post until then; but Ross Merriam’s article was exciting to read and I thought I should let everyone know about it.
I run have only 2 Pacts in my Garruk Green deck, but Oath hits everything else. Oath is fantastic. Adds mana with Nykthos, finds a key land, or or spell, reveals a new top card for Courser, and it's effect is strictly better than Sleight of Hand in the deck.
This is true. It is great in decks with high Walker/Creature/Land counts. As I said, it was a HUGE boon to the walker decks I had played prior to Oath's printing (made them viable). I tried to play Garruk Green BEFORE the rule because I loved Oath so much
Having said that, I don't think it is for every Devotion deck. More importantly, or at least more common is the fact that some Devotion decks just shouldn't play more than 2 copies of Oath. I would have said that was blasphemy 6 months ago...but I do think that some decks just don't get the same "bang for the buck" that other Devotion decks do.
In my years with devotion, I've found that Devotion decks are VERY fickle. What works in one is not guaranteed to work in another.
Put the rest in a Spoiler because it gets deep into "philosophy" of Devotion deck:
The main components I've found that effect the "nature" and/or success of a devotion deck are:
1. The amount of card draw/digging is available in the deck. (i.e. Card Draw)
2. The curve of the deck (especially in the 2-4 drop portion of the deck) (i.e. Curve)
3. The Chosen Win-conditions (i.e. Win-Con Choice)
All devotion decks in one way or another are "big mana" decks. The decks are generally broken into "Ramp", "Support", and "Win-Conditions". Ramp cards (generally 1-2 drops) are what we play first, "Support" cards (generally 2-4) often play dual roles; but really "bridge" the deck between the early ramp and big-mana win-cons. The support cards tend to smooth out the deck; because every game isn't going to be as easy as playing a few ramp cards and then immediately casting 8-drops. The Win-Conditions are the cards that end the game and often tend to be our big mana cards. The amount and style of each of the above cards, however, is dependent on the above three elements (card draw, curve, and win-con choice).
1. The more cards you draw and the faster/further you dig through your deck; the greater the likelihood you will have a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in play. Of course, certain cards will not "hit" a Nykthos, but in general the faster you "draw" through the deck, the greater the chance to hit a specific card. This changes the "average" math you factor in to turns 3-6.
2. As far as the curve is concerned...I tend to play decks with a lot of 1-2 drops and far less 3-drops (with a few more variable cards). This isn't necessarily "better" (in some match ups it is, in others it is not); but it does change a few important factors. The most important of these is that the deck can generally (on average) play well on only 1 Land between turns 1-3 and less lands in general. Of course it is ideal to hit 1 and exactly 1 land drop each turn; but the deck can function on very few lands. Decks with a heavy focus on 3-5 drops will often really need to hit their first two land drops on turns one and two (and three to some extent). I think Oath of Nissa performs very will in such decks as it can really help ensure land drops are hit.
3. The choice of win-con greatly effects the way the ramp and support cards are chosen. Tooth and Nail Decks often will want to hit 7-9 mana quickly. Other devotion decks may not need to hit quite that high a number, hit the Devoted Druid combo, etc. Also, some utilize means of reduction to more quickly get to their "high drops" and/or utilize more mana-sinks. This changes whether you choose Courser of Overgrowth at 3-CMC.
I generally start with the win-conditions and build the deck from there...but the above gets into stuff we could write literal pages and pages about (and is what the Primer needs to partially do)...but the above is just a long-winded way of saying that Oath doesn't necessarily fit in every single devotion deck.
My decks tended to play 3x Nykthos, at least one Joraga Warcaller, as well as Genesis Wave; but he does talk about taking advantage of Nykthos within his article so I thought it was worth discussing.
That's why Caller of Beasts is good, his plus 1 is a Lead the Stampede.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Always wear protection kids, sleeve up your deck.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
With a 20 Land Deck Oath makes it possible to decrease the amount of mulligans significantly.
However there seems to be a cut off, depending on how many non-targets you play.
It the traditional Devotion I played for a long time, I needed to trim them down because of Primal Commands. This is also the case when I side in Relic of Progenitus, Creeping Corrosion, etc I will cut oaths, since the deck gets filled with cards i cannot hit of oath.
However if the SB card can be hit by oath i'm leaving them in, since they increase the chance of hitting them.
This is exactly the situation I'm in. This is what convinced me to try a non-Oath build. It also leaves me free to experiment with Pact.
Blast from the WAY past...Ross Merriam wrote an article about my very first deck in Devotion (Elf Devotion). I don't mean to suggest his article has anything to do with my past lists, etc. it doesn’t. I was just saying it was fun to see him mention the power of Nykthos in an Elf build as that is how I got my start in Devotion when it was first released(I.e. when Nykthos was spoiled).
I quit Elf Devotion because it didn’t seem any better (or terribly different outside of Wave) from the “regular” elves lists. To be honest, Merriams List is EXTREMELY similar to other Wlves lists (and less like my “Devoted Elves” lists of the past; but he does discuss Nykthos so I thought it was worth posting.
Maybe now there is more too it (with Devoted Druid being a Combo with Ezuri too...I mentioned it last week that I was fooling around with Elves; but in all honesty I’ve spent the last two weeks really focused on my Chord list. It is gong GREAT! I will play around with Elf Devotion again; but it likely will just look a ton like my current Chord list.
I’m currently 41-17 in matches with my Chord list (although there were small changes within this spread to the board and my 3-drop slot). I have a big write up outlining choices and match ups I’ll post tonight. I wasn’t going to post until then; but Ross Merriam’s article was exciting to read and I thought I should let everyone know about it.
I run have only 2 Pacts in my Garruk Green deck, but Oath hits everything else. Oath is fantastic. Adds mana with Nykthos, finds a key land, or or spell, reveals a new top card for Courser, and it's effect is strictly better than Sleight of Hand in the deck.
This is true. It is great in decks with high Walker/Creature/Land counts. As I said, it was a HUGE boon to the walker decks I had played prior to Oath's printing (made them viable). I tried to play Garruk Green BEFORE the rule because I loved Oath so much
Having said that, I don't think it is for every Devotion deck. More importantly, or at least more common is the fact that some Devotion decks just shouldn't play more than 2 copies of Oath. I would have said that was blasphemy 6 months ago...but I do think that some decks just don't get the same "bang for the buck" that other Devotion decks do.
In my years with devotion, I've found that Devotion decks are VERY fickle. What works in one is not guaranteed to work in another.
Put the rest in a Spoiler because it gets deep into "philosophy" of Devotion deck:
The main components I've found that effect the "nature" and/or success of a devotion deck are:
1. The amount of card draw/digging is available in the deck. (i.e. Card Draw)
2. The curve of the deck (especially in the 2-4 drop portion of the deck) (i.e. Curve)
3. The Chosen Win-conditions (i.e. Win-Con Choice)
All devotion decks in one way or another are "big mana" decks. The decks are generally broken into "Ramp", "Support", and "Win-Conditions". Ramp cards (generally 1-2 drops) are what we play first, "Support" cards (generally 2-4) often play dual roles; but really "bridge" the deck between the early ramp and big-mana win-cons. The support cards tend to smooth out the deck; because every game isn't going to be as easy as playing a few ramp cards and then immediately casting 8-drops. The Win-Conditions are the cards that end the game and often tend to be our big mana cards. The amount and style of each of the above cards, however, is dependent on the above three elements (card draw, curve, and win-con choice).
1. The more cards you draw and the faster/further you dig through your deck; the greater the likelihood you will have a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in play. Of course, certain cards will not "hit" a Nykthos, but in general the faster you "draw" through the deck, the greater the chance to hit a specific card. This changes the "average" math you factor in to turns 3-6.
2. As far as the curve is concerned...I tend to play decks with a lot of 1-2 drops and far less 3-drops (with a few more variable cards). This isn't necessarily "better" (in some match ups it is, in others it is not); but it does change a few important factors. The most important of these is that the deck can generally (on average) play well on only 1 Land between turns 1-3 and less lands in general. Of course it is ideal to hit 1 and exactly 1 land drop each turn; but the deck can function on very few lands. Decks with a heavy focus on 3-5 drops will often really need to hit their first two land drops on turns one and two (and three to some extent). I think Oath of Nissa performs very will in such decks as it can really help ensure land drops are hit.
3. The choice of win-con greatly effects the way the ramp and support cards are chosen. Tooth and Nail Decks often will want to hit 7-9 mana quickly. Other devotion decks may not need to hit quite that high a number, hit the Devoted Druid combo, etc. Also, some utilize means of reduction to more quickly get to their "high drops" and/or utilize more mana-sinks. This changes whether you choose Courser of Overgrowth at 3-CMC.
I generally start with the win-conditions and build the deck from there...but the above gets into stuff we could write literal pages and pages about (and is what the Primer needs to partially do)...but the above is just a long-winded way of saying that Oath doesn't necessarily fit in every single devotion deck.
I was thinking it might be time for a primer update. I remember I did a lot of the early Oath math, and my perspective has matured a bit. We also have Druid and other splashes that are receiving serious consideration.
Looks like he is just relying on being faster or more resilant than burn ie. forcing burn to react to him than the other way around.
Burn was always somewhat favorable (though never a guarantee). This is especially true if you play some number of Command and Courser. If they don't have a Skullcrack for Command, they lose. If Courser lands, they likely lose unless they can remove it economically (eg: you block Swiftspear, and they have a Searing Blaze/Blood. In your SB, you have life gain cards that are incidentally good versus everyone else.
Looking back to these classic builds does have me missing my Coursers. Helping ensure land drops, adding devotion, a life trickle, and land drops was nice all in one card. Unfortunately, I don't think it's a sufficient blocker anymore: Affinity flies, Elves trample, Merfolk islandwalk, and Eldrazi are just too big.
-----
I'm looking at two builds for the tourney, and would appreciate some comments and thoughts.
The A build is much closer to what I'm playing now, and is very classic in a lot of ways. It has the few elements that red adds, at a cost of taking potentially a bunch more pain damage (which is not irrelevant). Cards are singlehandedly powerful to the point of overwhelming, but more mana-intensive. The only cards that I'd need to pick up beforehand are the Bonfires in the SB.
The B build is something that I threw together in reaction to the amount of pain I was taking from lands, and a few occasions where my mana producers got killed and I stalled out below the Titan threshold. The costs mostly cap out at 4 mana, but the inclusion of Wolfbriars, Gods, and Polukranos gives a lot of upside for excess. I lack Bonfire for the SB, and could probably use something better to deal with other green decks. I'd need to pick up the 2nd Thrun, 2x Wolfbriar, Nylea, and Rhonas.
My decks tended to play 3x Nykthos, at least one Joraga Warcaller, as well as Genesis Wave; but he does talk about taking advantage of Nykthos within his article so I thought it was worth discussing.
I think there is one missing card in the main deck. A flex position, I play Growing Rites, most people play Visionary, Scooze, or E-wit
The Primer Absolutely needs an update. I had started a new Primer and we've since seen 5 more different archetypes/splashes....I was HOPING we would end up narrowing down "Devotion" to a half dozen decks or so (with of course a card or two different here or there) but it looks more like it will have to be more about particular cards and which cards play well with one another. Of course I will provide multiple deck examples...I just didn't want to overwhelm a reader interested in Devotion but also didn't want to leave anyone out.
That's why Caller of Beasts is good, his plus 1 is a Lead the Stampede.
You're preaching to the choir! I was the first person to post a Garruk COB list given his awesomeness (I'm sure many people had the same idea at the same time with the Legend Rule change...I don't pretend to be novel or to have any particular ownership over COB...I only say I posted first to let you know I totally agree with you without any preempting). I think you and I, however, like it a little more than most
3-CMC is a lot different than 6-CMC...but Garruk COB can do it over and over AND can put a huge Green Creature into play. Such an awesome card. I even play it in my Chord list!
If you're running Primal Command, you might consider running Magus of the Moon. A great sideboard card. Also, I used to run Terastodon, which is a great option.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Always wear protection kids, sleeve up your deck.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I hadn't really considered Magus of the Moon. It's an interesting choice: easier for you to remove if needed, tutorable so you don't need as many, assists overruns. I was already considering some copies of Blood Moon in my SB. The problem with it is that it is fairly easy to remove for the opponent; and also if you're relying on Command to find it, you may not cast it until turn 4 or even 5 (well past a functioning Tron).
Regarding Terastodon, it's been in and out of my SB. It's really strong against non-blue control deck, like Sun and Moon. However, I hadn't actually needed it much, which is why I pulled it. I may throw a singleton back in, if I can find room. Once we splash, we go from an anemic sideboard to an embarrassment of riches.
@Lord_
I mean, you can cast it early if you draw it just like Blood Moon, but then you also have 4 cards to tutor it with, at the least.
Another card which I probably brought up at some point but can't remember for sure, is Westvale Abbey. If you're playing Prime Time and also loading up on the go-wide plan, this seems like a decent option.. A tutorable card, that if activated and attacked with, will end the game vs. most creature decks. Winning on the spot with an overrun effect is usually just better, but at least, if you don't have the mana or spell to do it, this another option to most likely seal the deal.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Funnily enough...I have a little blurb about Carven Caryatid in my current Chord blurb/write up (as I have been playing it in my Chord build over the last 40 or so matches)...so it was interesting to see him using it as well. It actually fits better in his list; but I do think it can be played in other Devotion decks (even though it is somewhat of a "nombo" with Garruk Overrun and Craterhoof.
With a 20 Land Deck Oath makes it possible to decrease the amount of mulligans significantly.
However there seems to be a cut off, depending on how many non-targets you play.
It the traditional Devotion I played for a long time, I needed to trim them down because of Primal Commands. This is also the case when I side in Relic of Progenitus, Creeping Corrosion, etc I will cut oaths, since the deck gets filled with cards i cannot hit of oath.
However if the SB card can be hit by oath i'm leaving them in, since they increase the chance of hitting them.
This is exactly the situation I'm in. This is what convinced me to try a non-Oath build. It also leaves me free to experiment with Pact.
Blast from the WAY past...Ross Merriam wrote an article about my very first deck in Devotion (Elf Devotion). I don't mean to suggest his article has anything to do with my past lists, etc. it doesn’t. I was just saying it was fun to see him mention the power of Nykthos in an Elf build as that is how I got my start in Devotion when it was first released(I.e. when Nykthos was spoiled).
I quit Elf Devotion because it didn’t seem any better (or terribly different outside of Wave) from the “regular” elves lists. To be honest, Merriams List is EXTREMELY similar to other Wlves lists (and less like my “Devoted Elves” lists of the past; but he does discuss Nykthos so I thought it was worth posting.
Maybe now there is more too it (with Devoted Druid being a Combo with Ezuri too...I mentioned it last week that I was fooling around with Elves; but in all honesty I’ve spent the last two weeks really focused on my Chord list. It is gong GREAT! I will play around with Elf Devotion again; but it likely will just look a ton like my current Chord list.
I’m currently 41-17 in matches with my Chord list (although there were small changes within this spread to the board and my 3-drop slot). I have a big write up outlining choices and match ups I’ll post tonight. I wasn’t going to post until then; but Ross Merriam’s article was exciting to read and I thought I should let everyone know about it.
I run have only 2 Pacts in my Garruk Green deck, but Oath hits everything else. Oath is fantastic. Adds mana with Nykthos, finds a key land, or or spell, reveals a new top card for Courser, and it's effect is strictly better than Sleight of Hand in the deck.
This is true. It is great in decks with high Walker/Creature/Land counts. As I said, it was a HUGE boon to the walker decks I had played prior to Oath's printing (made them viable). I tried to play Garruk Green BEFORE the rule because I loved Oath so much
Having said that, I don't think it is for every Devotion deck. More importantly, or at least more common is the fact that some Devotion decks just shouldn't play more than 2 copies of Oath. I would have said that was blasphemy 6 months ago...but I do think that some decks just don't get the same "bang for the buck" that other Devotion decks do.
In my years with devotion, I've found that Devotion decks are VERY fickle. What works in one is not guaranteed to work in another.
Put the rest in a Spoiler because it gets deep into "philosophy" of Devotion deck:
The main components I've found that effect the "nature" and/or success of a devotion deck are:
1. The amount of card draw/digging is available in the deck. (i.e. Card Draw)
2. The curve of the deck (especially in the 2-4 drop portion of the deck) (i.e. Curve)
3. The Chosen Win-conditions (i.e. Win-Con Choice)
All devotion decks in one way or another are "big mana" decks. The decks are generally broken into "Ramp", "Support", and "Win-Conditions". Ramp cards (generally 1-2 drops) are what we play first, "Support" cards (generally 2-4) often play dual roles; but really "bridge" the deck between the early ramp and big-mana win-cons. The support cards tend to smooth out the deck; because every game isn't going to be as easy as playing a few ramp cards and then immediately casting 8-drops. The Win-Conditions are the cards that end the game and often tend to be our big mana cards. The amount and style of each of the above cards, however, is dependent on the above three elements (card draw, curve, and win-con choice).
1. The more cards you draw and the faster/further you dig through your deck; the greater the likelihood you will have a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in play. Of course, certain cards will not "hit" a Nykthos, but in general the faster you "draw" through the deck, the greater the chance to hit a specific card. This changes the "average" math you factor in to turns 3-6.
2. As far as the curve is concerned...I tend to play decks with a lot of 1-2 drops and far less 3-drops (with a few more variable cards). This isn't necessarily "better" (in some match ups it is, in others it is not); but it does change a few important factors. The most important of these is that the deck can generally (on average) play well on only 1 Land between turns 1-3 and less lands in general. Of course it is ideal to hit 1 and exactly 1 land drop each turn; but the deck can function on very few lands. Decks with a heavy focus on 3-5 drops will often really need to hit their first two land drops on turns one and two (and three to some extent). I think Oath of Nissa performs very will in such decks as it can really help ensure land drops are hit.
3. The choice of win-con greatly effects the way the ramp and support cards are chosen. Tooth and Nail Decks often will want to hit 7-9 mana quickly. Other devotion decks may not need to hit quite that high a number, hit the Devoted Druid combo, etc. Also, some utilize means of reduction to more quickly get to their "high drops" and/or utilize more mana-sinks. This changes whether you choose Courser of Overgrowth at 3-CMC.
I generally start with the win-conditions and build the deck from there...but the above gets into stuff we could write literal pages and pages about (and is what the Primer needs to partially do)...but the above is just a long-winded way of saying that Oath doesn't necessarily fit in every single devotion deck.
I was thinking it might be time for a primer update. I remember I did a lot of the early Oath math, and my perspective has matured a bit. We also have Druid and other splashes that are receiving serious consideration.
Looks like he is just relying on being faster or more resilant than burn ie. forcing burn to react to him than the other way around.
Burn was always somewhat favorable (though never a guarantee). This is especially true if you play some number of Command and Courser. If they don't have a Skullcrack for Command, they lose. If Courser lands, they likely lose unless they can remove it economically (eg: you block Swiftspear, and they have a Searing Blaze/Blood. In your SB, you have life gain cards that are incidentally good versus everyone else.
Looking back to these classic builds does have me missing my Coursers. Helping ensure land drops, adding devotion, a life trickle, and land drops was nice all in one card. Unfortunately, I don't think it's a sufficient blocker anymore: Affinity flies, Elves trample, Merfolk islandwalk, and Eldrazi are just too big.
-----
I'm looking at two builds for the tourney, and would appreciate some comments and thoughts.
The A build is much closer to what I'm playing now, and is very classic in a lot of ways. It has the few elements that red adds, at a cost of taking potentially a bunch more pain damage (which is not irrelevant). Cards are singlehandedly powerful to the point of overwhelming, but more mana-intensive. The only cards that I'd need to pick up beforehand are the Bonfires in the SB.
The B build is something that I threw together in reaction to the amount of pain I was taking from lands, and a few occasions where my mana producers got killed and I stalled out below the Titan threshold. The costs mostly cap out at 4 mana, but the inclusion of Wolfbriars, Gods, and Polukranos gives a lot of upside for excess. I lack Bonfire for the SB, and could probably use something better to deal with other green decks. I'd need to pick up the 2nd Thrun, 2x Wolfbriar, Nylea, and Rhonas.
Any suggestion as to which way I should lean, and any tweaks you'd advise?
Ugh...this is tough. My heart wants the one with Nylea, God of the Hunt to work (as I REALLY want her to work in Devotion decks as the go-to mana-sink) but Primeval Titan is SOOOO powerful in a Command deck that it makes the decision terribly difficult. I think I would honestly have to play both to figure it out.
Man....going back over my notes; I’m surprised by how many games I’ve won with the Vizier Combo. I guess the argument could be made that in many of those games I may have won anyways...but I just am surprised how many games I noted “Hit Combo With X”
(With X being Chord, Ballista, Duskwatch, Hydra, etc. that was a meams to ending the game on the spot).
Organizing/editing; but will provide numbers/findings soon for the Devoted list (playing Chord rather than Primal Command)
That list is interesting, but I'm not crazy about it. Gardens are an obvious nod to how impossible Growing Rites may be to activate. Another good approach would be Treetop Villages, as those could also be hit with Titan. Finally, I think Cradle should be played with Nylea VoZ. It just seems a natural pairing.
In my case, the deck is finally getting tight. 20 land is as low as I can get, and I'd really like that additional Forest. 10 Elf/Sprawl/Bird, though the 11th helps. 4 Druid. 1 Vizier. 4 Command. 4 Ballista. And so on. There really isn't much to budge, so it's not "filling space and shrinking the deck," so much as "displacing something else."
In terms of what it can find, after turn 2, I pretty much always want it to be a big creature. There aren't a lot of those in the deck, and finding Command does not count. Since mana tends to be fine but threats aren't, I'm making the flip to Pact. If I didn't rely on Command and played more big creatures instead of the extended set of mana producers, it would make more sense to run 2x Oath.
It always surprises me when an ostensibly very good, mainstay card (especially a cantrip) finally reaches a tipping point where it is forced out. I actually expected 2x Oath to be a component forever.
Running 2-3 Pacts has been pretty good, thus far. Getting the balance right is not easy between mana and threats. Sadly, Oath is no longer capable of assisting on both sides.
I am debating between dropping to 2 Birds or 20 lands. The additional Bird is a 4% increase in the number of turn-1 accelerator drops. However, I have occasionally had that dreaded colorless-land opener. Having Druid makes me a bit more comfortable with the idea of playing a turn 1 Treetop Village or tapped Shockland and saying "go."
I'm pulling one Polukranos for a Thrun. I've only run into an issue with the legend rule once, but there are enough games where Thrun is a big enough wall to buy time. He's also really good versus control, and the ability to Pact him up is often game-winning. Finally, he's another source of Devotion that's tough to remove. Since there are few regenerators in the format outside of Elves but lots of countermagic, Supreme Verdict is replacing Wrath of God in many places. The only spell that is left to remove Thrun is Damnation. I could still see fitting a Carnage Tyrant as well, but I'm not sure if it's really better than Titan or Ruric Thar.
My record isn't spotless anymore, but it's well better than 3:1. I'm debating taking this to my first big tourney. The problem is that it's a deck with lots of decision-making, and I'm concerned that I might make more play errors later in the day as a result. I have two much simpler alternatives, but they don't perform quite as well, and are far more meta-dependent.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
However there seems to be a cut off, depending on how many non-targets you play.
It the traditional Devotion I played for a long time, I needed to trim them down because of Primal Commands. This is also the case when I side in Relic of Progenitus, Creeping Corrosion, etc I will cut oaths, since the deck gets filled with cards i cannot hit of oath.
However if the SB card can be hit by oath i'm leaving them in, since they increase the chance of hitting them.
I quit Elf Devotion because it didn’t seem any better (or terribly different outside of Wave) from the “regular” elves lists. To be honest, Merriams List is EXTREMELY similar to other Wlves lists (and less like my “Devoted Elves” lists of the past; but he does discuss Nykthos so I thought it was worth posting.
Maybe now there is more too it (with Devoted Druid being a Combo with Ezuri too...I mentioned it last week that I was fooling around with Elves; but in all honesty I’ve spent the last two weeks really focused on my Chord list. It is gong GREAT! I will play around with Elf Devotion again; but it likely will just look a ton like my current Chord list.
I’m currently 41-17 in matches with my Chord list (although there were small changes within this spread to the board and my 3-drop slot). I have a big write up outlining choices and match ups I’ll post tonight. I wasn’t going to post until then; but Ross Merriam’s article was exciting to read and I thought I should let everyone know about it.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/36015_My-Three-Options-For-SCG-Cincinnati.html
Lead the stampeded is such a cool card...if I played a list with less Walkers and Enchantments(or 30+ creatures) I would consider it.
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This is true. It is great in decks with high Walker/Creature/Land counts. As I said, it was a HUGE boon to the walker decks I had played prior to Oath's printing (made them viable). I tried to play Garruk Green BEFORE the rule because I loved Oath so much
Having said that, I don't think it is for every Devotion deck. More importantly, or at least more common is the fact that some Devotion decks just shouldn't play more than 2 copies of Oath. I would have said that was blasphemy 6 months ago...but I do think that some decks just don't get the same "bang for the buck" that other Devotion decks do.
In my years with devotion, I've found that Devotion decks are VERY fickle. What works in one is not guaranteed to work in another.
Put the rest in a Spoiler because it gets deep into "philosophy" of Devotion deck:
1. The amount of card draw/digging is available in the deck. (i.e. Card Draw)
2. The curve of the deck (especially in the 2-4 drop portion of the deck) (i.e. Curve)
3. The Chosen Win-conditions (i.e. Win-Con Choice)
All devotion decks in one way or another are "big mana" decks. The decks are generally broken into "Ramp", "Support", and "Win-Conditions". Ramp cards (generally 1-2 drops) are what we play first, "Support" cards (generally 2-4) often play dual roles; but really "bridge" the deck between the early ramp and big-mana win-cons. The support cards tend to smooth out the deck; because every game isn't going to be as easy as playing a few ramp cards and then immediately casting 8-drops. The Win-Conditions are the cards that end the game and often tend to be our big mana cards. The amount and style of each of the above cards, however, is dependent on the above three elements (card draw, curve, and win-con choice).
1. The more cards you draw and the faster/further you dig through your deck; the greater the likelihood you will have a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in play. Of course, certain cards will not "hit" a Nykthos, but in general the faster you "draw" through the deck, the greater the chance to hit a specific card. This changes the "average" math you factor in to turns 3-6.
2. As far as the curve is concerned...I tend to play decks with a lot of 1-2 drops and far less 3-drops (with a few more variable cards). This isn't necessarily "better" (in some match ups it is, in others it is not); but it does change a few important factors. The most important of these is that the deck can generally (on average) play well on only 1 Land between turns 1-3 and less lands in general. Of course it is ideal to hit 1 and exactly 1 land drop each turn; but the deck can function on very few lands. Decks with a heavy focus on 3-5 drops will often really need to hit their first two land drops on turns one and two (and three to some extent). I think Oath of Nissa performs very will in such decks as it can really help ensure land drops are hit.
3. The choice of win-con greatly effects the way the ramp and support cards are chosen. Tooth and Nail Decks often will want to hit 7-9 mana quickly. Other devotion decks may not need to hit quite that high a number, hit the Devoted Druid combo, etc. Also, some utilize means of reduction to more quickly get to their "high drops" and/or utilize more mana-sinks. This changes whether you choose Courser of Overgrowth at 3-CMC.
I generally start with the win-conditions and build the deck from there...but the above gets into stuff we could write literal pages and pages about (and is what the Primer needs to partially do)...but the above is just a long-winded way of saying that Oath doesn't necessarily fit in every single devotion deck.
Sure!
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Heritage Druid
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Nettle Sentinel
1x Elvish Visionary
4x Devoted Druid
4x Dwynen's Elite
1x Vizier of Remedies
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
Lands
2x Forest
4x Cavern of Souls
3x Horizon Canopy
4x Razorverge Thicket
1x Temple Garden
2x Windswept Heath
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Pendlehaven
1x Aven Mindscensor
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfish Spirit
1x Rest in Peace
1x Stoney Silence
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
3x Path to Exile
1x Kataki, War's Wage
3x Lead the Stampede
My decks tended to play 3x Nykthos, at least one Joraga Warcaller, as well as Genesis Wave; but he does talk about taking advantage of Nykthos within his article so I thought it was worth discussing.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OiIIjYgXB4&list=PLxg8UAfS2YJaQU-awzdWFY1cfglXmSYkh
Article: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=14228&writer=Corbin Hosler&articledate=10-16-2017
This is exactly the situation I'm in. This is what convinced me to try a non-Oath build. It also leaves me free to experiment with Pact.
I was thinking it might be time for a primer update. I remember I did a lot of the early Oath math, and my perspective has matured a bit. We also have Druid and other splashes that are receiving serious consideration.
Burn was always somewhat favorable (though never a guarantee). This is especially true if you play some number of Command and Courser. If they don't have a Skullcrack for Command, they lose. If Courser lands, they likely lose unless they can remove it economically (eg: you block Swiftspear, and they have a Searing Blaze/Blood. In your SB, you have life gain cards that are incidentally good versus everyone else.
Looking back to these classic builds does have me missing my Coursers. Helping ensure land drops, adding devotion, a life trickle, and land drops was nice all in one card. Unfortunately, I don't think it's a sufficient blocker anymore: Affinity flies, Elves trample, Merfolk islandwalk, and Eldrazi are just too big.
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I'm looking at two builds for the tourney, and would appreciate some comments and thoughts.
The A build is much closer to what I'm playing now, and is very classic in a lot of ways. It has the few elements that red adds, at a cost of taking potentially a bunch more pain damage (which is not irrelevant). Cards are singlehandedly powerful to the point of overwhelming, but more mana-intensive. The only cards that I'd need to pick up beforehand are the Bonfires in the SB.
The B build is something that I threw together in reaction to the amount of pain I was taking from lands, and a few occasions where my mana producers got killed and I stalled out below the Titan threshold. The costs mostly cap out at 4 mana, but the inclusion of Wolfbriars, Gods, and Polukranos gives a lot of upside for excess. I lack Bonfire for the SB, and could probably use something better to deal with other green decks. I'd need to pick up the 2nd Thrun, 2x Wolfbriar, Nylea, and Rhonas.
5 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
2 Treetop Village
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Mana Boosts (18)
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Devoted Druid
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Walking Ballista
2 Wolfbriar Elemental
2 Primeval Titan
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Hornet Queen
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
Other (10)
2 Eternal Witness
3 Summoner's Pact
4 Primal Command
1 Vizier of Remedies
3 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Eternal Witness
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
9 Forest
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Temple Garden
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Mana Boosts (18)
4 Arbor Elf
4 Devoted Druid
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Oath of Nissa
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Walking Ballista
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
2 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Wolfbriar Elemental
1 Hornet Queen
Other (7)
2 Eternal Witness
4 Primal Command
1 Vizier of Remedies
4 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
4 Beast Within
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Eternal Witness
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
Any suggestion as to which way I should lean, and any tweaks you'd advise?
Edit: Added missing Thrun in Variant A's SB.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I think there is one missing card in the main deck. A flex position, I play Growing Rites, most people play Visionary, Scooze, or E-wit
You're preaching to the choir! I was the first person to post a Garruk COB list given his awesomeness
3-CMC is a lot different than 6-CMC...but Garruk COB can do it over and over AND can put a huge Green Creature into play. Such an awesome card. I even play it in my Chord list!
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Let me know if there's anything you want my assistance with, organization- or writing-wise.
I hadn't really considered Magus of the Moon. It's an interesting choice: easier for you to remove if needed, tutorable so you don't need as many, assists overruns. I was already considering some copies of Blood Moon in my SB. The problem with it is that it is fairly easy to remove for the opponent; and also if you're relying on Command to find it, you may not cast it until turn 4 or even 5 (well past a functioning Tron).
Regarding Terastodon, it's been in and out of my SB. It's really strong against non-blue control deck, like Sun and Moon. However, I hadn't actually needed it much, which is why I pulled it. I may throw a singleton back in, if I can find room. Once we splash, we go from an anemic sideboard to an embarrassment of riches.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I mean, you can cast it early if you draw it just like Blood Moon, but then you also have 4 cards to tutor it with, at the least.
Another card which I probably brought up at some point but can't remember for sure, is Westvale Abbey. If you're playing Prime Time and also loading up on the go-wide plan, this seems like a decent option.. A tutorable card, that if activated and attacked with, will end the game vs. most creature decks. Winning on the spot with an overrun effect is usually just better, but at least, if you don't have the mana or spell to do it, this another option to most likely seal the deal.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/36034_Video-Itlimoc-Genesis-Wave-In-Modern.html
Funnily enough...I have a little blurb about Carven Caryatid in my current Chord blurb/write up (as I have been playing it in my Chord build over the last 40 or so matches)...so it was interesting to see him using it as well. It actually fits better in his list; but I do think it can be played in other Devotion decks (even though it is somewhat of a "nombo" with Garruk Overrun and Craterhoof.
Ugh...this is tough. My heart wants the one with Nylea, God of the Hunt to work (as I REALLY want her to work in Devotion decks as the go-to mana-sink) but Primeval Titan is SOOOO powerful in a Command deck that it makes the decision terribly difficult. I think I would honestly have to play both to figure it out.
(With X being Chord, Ballista, Duskwatch, Hydra, etc. that was a meams to ending the game on the spot).
Organizing/editing; but will provide numbers/findings soon for the Devoted list (playing Chord rather than Primal Command)
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB