I agree. Thus far it has been pretty underwhelming but I do think Stompy can/will make use of some of the -1 counter cards (as their base is so big and they already play efficient creatures that generate +1/+1 counters in many scenarios. The haste crocodile seems great (and only requires a single counter) but 4-CMC is up there for Stompy :). I do think that right now; Stompy seems best positioned to get useable cards.
It's early though...there are a lot of spoilers left. The Gideon is super interesting (which means maybe there is some inspired design)...so fingers crossed! It's looking more and more like Rhona's condition will likely be a creature or creatures with power X or higher. Could be useful if so.
The mana from the ability should technically be in your mana pool before you declare your cost for Chord. The difference is that the Spawn sac's itself for it's mana ability (so it's not there to convoke).
This is exactly what it comes down to.
This also means that convoking doesn't work with wall of roots if it dies from its mana ability.
The spoiled cards so far are somewhat underwhelming for us but i think the creatures that put -1/-1 counters on your guys could be busted, for example if you play a young wolf on turn 1, then swing with it and play the 4/4 for 2 Mana and place the counters on young wolf.
Do the +1/+1 counters from undying get canceled out by the -1/-1 counters before the creature dies?
Aka can a 2/2 young wolf still come back with undying if the -1/-1 killed it?
You mean Channeler Initiate? As far as I understand, when CI enters the battlefiled, it puts three -1/-1 counters on YW killing it and clearing any counters it had. Then the undying ability resolves and YW comes back to play as a 2/2.
The ruling on Undying creatures was discussed in the Stompy thread.
They accurately stated that Young Wolf wouldn't come back if it had +1/+1 counters on it and died due to -1 counter overdose reducing it's toughness to 0. The creature would die but the state-based action of the +1 and -1 counters cancelling out wouldn't happen. So in the process of dying, it would check the last state of the creature and would see that it had +1 counters on it and not come back. If enough -1 counters were put on it that it cancels out some or all of the +1 counters on the creature and not cause it to die, then the state-based action of the +1 and -1 counter cancellation would happen.
Clarification is listed under the final point on the rulings section listed here.
Thinking I may play this as a 1-2 of in my board for decks that play Ensnaring Bridge or other such prison effects...It's great with mana dorks and with Convoke (especially because I can convoke for Witness and do it again).
Also, there is this:
Is this good enough for us (especially Bellower decks) to use?
Is this good enough for us (especially Bellower decks) to use?
What does this do for us that Reclamation Sage doesn't already do while also providing an option to get rid of enchantments? And Reclamation Sage doesn't see much play either.
Yea it prevents a Wurmcoil from coming down and blocking, which is somewhat relevant, but is that situational ability better than the flexibility of removing an enchantment?
"He plays in a walk in humidor so keep his foils from bending. He once kept an all land hand just to know what it felt like to be mana flooded. He uses power nine for ante. He is the most interesting magic playing in the world." Old man, "I don't always tap basic lands for mana, but when i do, I tap Gurus."
Is this good enough for us (especially Bellower decks) to use?
What does this do for us that Reclamation Sage doesn't already do while also providing an option to get rid of enchantments? And Reclamation Sage doesn't see much play either.
Yea it prevents a Wurmcoil from coming down and blocking, which is somewhat relevant, but is that situational ability better than the flexibility of removing an enchantment?
It can hurt tron in the sense that their (on average) 16 artifacts that require tapping cannot be utilized when they enter the battlefield.
It keeps decks with Mox Opal and Springleaf Drum from casting things instantly (or playing multiples in a turn).
I'm certain there are other uses that I can't think of off the top of my head. Having said this, I'm not certain it is fast enough to matter. It is an interesting card nonetheless.
I don't think it would replace a "destroy artifact or enchantment" permanent/spell. I do think it is an interesting card that does have applications (whether or not there are enough applications to warrant play in the current modern meta). It's something I will be adding to my "green devotion" box of cards
is Gideon of the Trials a good sideboard card for us against certain decks. We have a lot of creatures to block for it...With Oath of Nissa we can dig for it.
I'm thinking about decks like:
Ad Nauseum
Maybe Burn (although they have ways to deal with it...but they do have to deal with it).
Infect
Affinity (many times they have one big attacker and again have to deal with him first).
Elves
I know not all are the top tier (and he may not be the best answer against each individually); but these decks are some of the tougher match ups we have...and it's nice to have once card that can be an "answer" or at minimum slow way down all of them.
I haven't tested it or thought about it a ton...but I'd love to hear discussion about it.
is Gideon of the Trials a good sideboard card for us against certain decks. We have a lot of creatures to block for it...With Oath of Nissa we can dig for it.
I'm thinking about decks like:
Ad Nauseum
Maybe Burn (although they have ways to deal with it...but they do have to deal with it).
Infect
Affinity (many times they have one big attacker and again have to deal with him first).
Elves
I know not all are the top tier (and he may not be the best answer against each individually); but these decks are some of the tougher match ups we have...and it's nice to have once card that can be an "answer" or at minimum slow way down all of them.
I haven't tested it or thought about it a ton...but I'd love to hear discussion about it.
Ad Nauseum
They'll just kill Gideon with Lightning Storm in addition to killing you.
Burn
3 mana to counter a bolt or fog a creature or two seems pretty awful.
Infect
Probably buys a turn. Melira buys more than that.
Affinity
This is probably where it's strongest, except for maybe Craterless Elves. But it's still likely only a turn it buys you.
Elves
Against Craterhoof this is probably a mulligan, but vs elves without it might buy a turn or two if they don't have Ezuri.
I'm not big on the card, especially with double white cost. I don't think the benefits outweigh the costs incurred on the mana base, and it adds 0 devotion.
I don't mean to be negative especially with my previous criticism of the artifact card (certainly an option if artifacts become real problematic, but probably still too slow vs Nature's Claim) but those are just my thoughts on the cards
"He plays in a walk in humidor so keep his foils from bending. He once kept an all land hand just to know what it felt like to be mana flooded. He uses power nine for ante. He is the most interesting magic playing in the world." Old man, "I don't always tap basic lands for mana, but when i do, I tap Gurus."
Ad Nauseum
They'll just kill Gideon with Lightning Storm in addition to killing you.
doesn't work.
Doh, that's right. Was thinking of grapeshot mechanics for some reason. So actually might be somewhat good here, but then they might be able to lab maniac + lightning storm the Gideon. Maybe makes it a bit rougher of a win for them.
Burn
3 mana to counter a bolt or fog a creature or two seems pretty awful.
If you +1 he cannot die to bolt
So it counters 2 bolts and/or another creature attack. I think Kitchen Finks does more, tbh, especially since it adds devotion.
Affinity
This is probably where it's strongest, except for maybe Craterless Elves. But it's still likely only a turn it buys you.
actually it would be the worst here, i don't know why you think differently.
Affinity can easily spread their damage between us and gideon and every creature has evasion.
I mean I'm assuming that you're still playing some creatures here which can block a bit if you need them to. Most of their heavy lifting is on Cranial Plating, which means that Gideon is fogging one attack of it, basically. Somewhat useful. Could buy you the turn to get to Creeping Corrosion if we're talking game 2. It's definitely still weak but I think it has some play here. And not many of their creatures have evasion. Maybe half, not all.
Idk, i think the gideon doesn't fit in devotion anyways, but overall the card is way overhyped, even for standard.
It's not as good as people think at all.
As a core concept I agree here, that's what I was trying to say. Might be good in a monowhite devotion since they generally play very prison-like and can protect him. But then he's kind of do nothing there anyways.
"He plays in a walk in humidor so keep his foils from bending. He once kept an all land hand just to know what it felt like to be mana flooded. He uses power nine for ante. He is the most interesting magic playing in the world." Old man, "I don't always tap basic lands for mana, but when i do, I tap Gurus."
He plays Jeskai Prowess...and the new red one drop is AMAZING...I'm sad that my Kitchen Finks (if I'm reading right) may be worse if burn starts playing it.
Here it is...this means Kitchen Finks doesn't come back if bolted, right?
He plays Jeskai Prowess...and the new red one drop is AMAZING...I'm sad that my Kitchen Finks (if I'm reading right) may be worse if burn starts playing it.
Here it is...this means Kitchen Finks doesn't come back if bolted, right?
Wouldn't the Finks already be dead, before the trigger resolves? I think that Finks will just return as normal.
It's a replacement effect, so it's not an ability that goes on the stack. Like infect.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
It's a replacement effect, so it's not an ability that goes on the stack. Like infect.
Oh, I totally missed the word 'instead' there, pretty important in this context haha. It makes the card less powerful than I thought however, I thought it was damage and on top of that the -1/-1-counters.
Ooh boy, that's a spicy card and one with a big, fat, huge mark on his back. The opponent will definitely want to remove it before it can again, or else it can get out of hand real quick. Imagine putting a Primeval Titan or Woodland Bellower on the field with it. Or maybe it's worth it to play with Emrakul.
thinking of playing a stock tooth and nail list, but dropping harmonize for gifts ungiven. seems like we can make good use of it, with eternal witness already in the mainboard.
That is a CRAZY ability if/when it triggers. The decks that play it may be able to play one more fatty. Even just cheating a 3-drop with good ETB may be worth it. Having said this, it is slow and a little fragile. It kinda is, however, a "must answer". I always say I'm not as concerned if my opponent CAN answer a card/creature as much as I am that they HAVE TO Speed is its biggest issue. It does "nothing" until it's next turn. Also, We've had Elvish Piper before and didn't use it...but this is just a hair better...may be just enough to see play. It's just a spectacular risk reward option (that likely plays better in decks with numerous fatties).
Kinda neat in T&N especially because you can just hardcast Xenagod and give Champion of Rhonas haste (and you already play a bunch of fatties to cheat in).
Does make me wonder whether it's worth playing Kiora, Master of the Depths again (as she can untap him to mitigate exert and allow him to cheat something in on every turn.
I like it. Anything that cheats mana and gets permanents down quick is great for us. Fragile (sort of) but is a Must Kill. I'm trying it immediately! At minimum; it's good enough to go in my "Green Devotion Box" (which is what I consider as cards we can play whether I do at the moment).
I just hope our green mythic(s) Is/are crazy! We know we get a god...and some are saying a fatty Basilisk...so keeping my hopes up that at least one is pushed/broken
That is a CRAZY ability. We've had Elvish Piper before; but this is just a hair better...may be just enough to see play.
Kinda neat in T&N especially because you can just hardcast Xenagod and give Champion of Rhonas haste (and you already play a bunch of fatties to cheat in).
I like it. Anything that cheats mana and gets permanents down quick is great for us. Fragile (sort of) but is a Must Kill. I'm trying it immediately!
This is filthy. We can power it out turn 2 with Arbor - Sprawl. They get 1 turn to remove it, failing which, we put whatever the heck we want into play.
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It's early though...there are a lot of spoilers left. The Gideon is super interesting (which means maybe there is some inspired design)...so fingers crossed! It's looking more and more like Rhona's condition will likely be a creature or creatures with power X or higher. Could be useful if so.
The ruling on Undying creatures was discussed in the Stompy thread.
They accurately stated that Young Wolf wouldn't come back if it had +1/+1 counters on it and died due to -1 counter overdose reducing it's toughness to 0. The creature would die but the state-based action of the +1 and -1 counters cancelling out wouldn't happen. So in the process of dying, it would check the last state of the creature and would see that it had +1 counters on it and not come back. If enough -1 counters were put on it that it cancels out some or all of the +1 counters on the creature and not cause it to die, then the state-based action of the +1 and -1 counter cancellation would happen.
Clarification is listed under the final point on the rulings section listed here.
Ahh, my bad. Then yeah you're right in what you listed.
Back to Devotion, any thoughts on Mouth [to] Feed? Is the draw section not as good as Harmonize due to having to play it from Graveyard?
Thinking I may play this as a 1-2 of in my board for decks that play Ensnaring Bridge or other such prison effects...It's great with mana dorks and with Convoke (especially because I can convoke for Witness and do it again).
Also, there is this:
Is this good enough for us (especially Bellower decks) to use?
What does this do for us that Reclamation Sage doesn't already do while also providing an option to get rid of enchantments? And Reclamation Sage doesn't see much play either.
Yea it prevents a Wurmcoil from coming down and blocking, which is somewhat relevant, but is that situational ability better than the flexibility of removing an enchantment?
It can hurt tron in the sense that their (on average) 16 artifacts that require tapping cannot be utilized when they enter the battlefield.
It keeps decks with Mox Opal and Springleaf Drum from casting things instantly (or playing multiples in a turn).
I'm certain there are other uses that I can't think of off the top of my head. Having said this, I'm not certain it is fast enough to matter. It is an interesting card nonetheless.
I don't think it would replace a "destroy artifact or enchantment" permanent/spell. I do think it is an interesting card that does have applications (whether or not there are enough applications to warrant play in the current modern meta). It's something I will be adding to my "green devotion" box of cards
is Gideon of the Trials a good sideboard card for us against certain decks. We have a lot of creatures to block for it...With Oath of Nissa we can dig for it.
I'm thinking about decks like:
Ad Nauseum
Maybe Burn (although they have ways to deal with it...but they do have to deal with it).
Infect
Affinity (many times they have one big attacker and again have to deal with him first).
Elves
I know not all are the top tier (and he may not be the best answer against each individually); but these decks are some of the tougher match ups we have...and it's nice to have once card that can be an "answer" or at minimum slow way down all of them.
I haven't tested it or thought about it a ton...but I'd love to hear discussion about it.
Ad Nauseum
They'll just kill Gideon with Lightning Storm in addition to killing you.
Burn
3 mana to counter a bolt or fog a creature or two seems pretty awful.
Infect
Probably buys a turn. Melira buys more than that.
Affinity
This is probably where it's strongest, except for maybe Craterless Elves. But it's still likely only a turn it buys you.
Elves
Against Craterhoof this is probably a mulligan, but vs elves without it might buy a turn or two if they don't have Ezuri.
I'm not big on the card, especially with double white cost. I don't think the benefits outweigh the costs incurred on the mana base, and it adds 0 devotion.
I don't mean to be negative especially with my previous criticism of the artifact card (certainly an option if artifacts become real problematic, but probably still too slow vs Nature's Claim) but those are just my thoughts on the cards
Doh, that's right. Was thinking of grapeshot mechanics for some reason. So actually might be somewhat good here, but then they might be able to lab maniac + lightning storm the Gideon. Maybe makes it a bit rougher of a win for them.
So it counters 2 bolts and/or another creature attack. I think Kitchen Finks does more, tbh, especially since it adds devotion.
I mean I'm assuming that you're still playing some creatures here which can block a bit if you need them to. Most of their heavy lifting is on Cranial Plating, which means that Gideon is fogging one attack of it, basically. Somewhat useful. Could buy you the turn to get to Creeping Corrosion if we're talking game 2. It's definitely still weak but I think it has some play here. And not many of their creatures have evasion. Maybe half, not all.
As a core concept I agree here, that's what I was trying to say. Might be good in a monowhite devotion since they generally play very prison-like and can protect him. But then he's kind of do nothing there anyways.
He plays Jeskai Prowess...and the new red one drop is AMAZING...I'm sad that my Kitchen Finks (if I'm reading right) may be worse if burn starts playing it.
Here it is...this means Kitchen Finks doesn't come back if bolted, right?
Wouldn't the Finks already be dead, before the trigger resolves? I think that Finks will just return as normal.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Is this good enough for a Chord deck as a "general answer" card?
No Slam Dunk card for us yet...but there's always next week!
Oh, I totally missed the word 'instead' there, pretty important in this context haha. It makes the card less powerful than I thought however, I thought it was damage and on top of that the -1/-1-counters.
That is a CRAZY ability if/when it triggers. The decks that play it may be able to play one more fatty. Even just cheating a 3-drop with good ETB may be worth it. Having said this, it is slow and a little fragile. It kinda is, however, a "must answer". I always say I'm not as concerned if my opponent CAN answer a card/creature as much as I am that they HAVE TO
Kinda neat in T&N especially because you can just hardcast Xenagod and give Champion of Rhonas haste (and you already play a bunch of fatties to cheat in).
Does make me wonder whether it's worth playing Kiora, Master of the Depths again (as she can untap him to mitigate exert and allow him to cheat something in on every turn.
I like it. Anything that cheats mana and gets permanents down quick is great for us. Fragile (sort of) but is a Must Kill. I'm trying it immediately! At minimum; it's good enough to go in my "Green Devotion Box" (which is what I consider as cards we can play whether I do at the moment).
I just hope our green mythic(s) Is/are crazy! We know we get a god...and some are saying a fatty Basilisk...so keeping my hopes up that at least one is pushed/broken
This is filthy. We can power it out turn 2 with Arbor - Sprawl. They get 1 turn to remove it, failing which, we put whatever the heck we want into play.