SaffronOlive did a budget Modern deck tech with video matchups on MTGgoldfish for mono-green devotion. Below is the link if anyone is interested. It seems like Primal Command is excellent against Death Shadow Jund!
I was actually surprised how good that deck performed, it really showed the power of Primal Command in this deck.
I'm actually interested enough to try and build my own version of Green-Devotion based on this list.
Some intersting differences I've noticed compared to other lists:
#It plays Voyaging Satyr as another Arbor Elf that can also untap Nykthos which seems really good, probably at the cost of not playing Burning-Tree Emissary in the deck which seems like a fine ommision (right ?).
#Manideck Scavenging Ooze and Thragtusk (or maybe Obstinate Baloth instead) seem like a good idea to stabilize against aggressive decks and have maindeck answer to GY's.
#I also like the inclusion of Elvish Visionary (or Carven Caryatid but the 3-drops slot is too packed) to cycle through the deck and mitigate flooding.
#Harmonize is obviously a budget concession but some sort of card-draw option to take advantage of all the mana this deck produces and not run out of gas seems like the right idea, I'm thinking about PW's for this role like: Garruk, Primal Hunter or Nissa, Vital Force.
#With so many good tools against creature decks Hornet Queen seems less necessary and something like: Woodfall Primus/Terastodon/Sylvan Primordial to hit non-creatures would be a better idea imho.
Btw, quite a few big mana strategies have been adopting Walking Ballista as a removal and a mana sink that can also finish games, do you think it can be good here as well (maybe in the SB) ?
Primevil Titan let's you fetch for Kessig and Nykthos consistently and that package wins a lot of games quickly. If they kill the Titan you can still make a huge attack with one of your small guys. It's really not a build-around-me card, it just closes out games fast and provides resilience and consistency.
I'm looking at your list, and scratching my head, but I guess I have to test it to understand. It seems like it does a lot of cute stuff, but it's generally slower than other lists. I like that my list can win turn 3 or 4 with Craterhoof.
Also, I'm not convinced that Blood Moon is worth a spot, since it's bad with Nykthos. Do people use it just for Tron or for 3+ color decks as well??
I feel that cards like Courser of Kruphix and Fauna Shaman are slow and better for grinding. I think Mono Green Devotion should have a very fast consistent gameplan, and then have a toolbox of creatures to deal with any situation that could arise.
I also don't like Strangleroot in theory, because it doesn't let you dump devotion on the board as fast as BTE. It's just a better blocker, and I guess helps you get aggro too, though this is more of a combo deck.
Can you explain why Bellower is good?
Also, a lot of people are running Thragtusk, and I think that Pelakka Wurm deserves a mention.
About Nissa, Voice of Zendikar; I'm really having trouble deciding if I should have more of these in my deck. It creates guys for craterhoof sure, and I guess it can create one more dude if play her then cast Hoof the following turn after you activaate her a second time. It comboes with Kitchen Finks. It creates and endless supply of Chump blockers. And it can pump our entire team. It also gives us some resiliency to wrath effects. Kitchen finks can also trade with creatures. I do see how it's a great card in many ways though. It can also fill up the board with big beaters fast in conjuction with Garruk's beast tokens. I'd say the best argument for having Nissa is that is better vs removal, especially Path to Exile unlike Finks, and it's good vs Wrath effects. It really tough deciding what my mainboard 3 drops should be, but Witness and Selkie provide card draw and card advantage as well as being a little bit faster so I'm sticking with them for now, although that might be incorrect. I'd love to be able to play more Nissa's. I do think that list that placed 24th at Dallas was a really great Devotion list.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
So I tried CurdBros list once and had mana problems and I think I'm done with it. Running 3 colors seems too ambitious. It does a lot of cute things, but I think too cute.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Always wear protection kids, sleeve up your deck.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I'm of the belief that Summoner's Pact is a superior card to Primal Command. The burst it provides is incredibly powerful. Here is a case that happened today...
Opponent is on the play and get's down a Rabblemaster on turn 3, after discarding my Garruk. My turn 3 I play a Courser and pass. He goes attacking again... I don't want to chump a goblin in case he has lightning bolt, since I need the courser to stick around. I take more damage and am feeling a little worried. My turn 4 I play a Nykthos off the top and go Pact-Pact-BTE-BTE-Nykthos activation for 6, Primeval Titan. It's not often that you see someone double pact and be able to pay for it the next turn, but that's exactly what I was able to do with the immediate devotion provided by BTE and Pact. It turned the game around instantaneously.
As for new thoughts, I'm trying out more Courser's in place of Wistful Selkie. While the extra draw is nice on Selkie, they were getting bolted a lot last time I took them for a spin. I wanted to have my devotion last longer tonight, so I switched to Strangleroot Geists as well, to really annoy the control players out there. Overall, I think Courser might be a little more useful in more interactive games, as it oftentimes can draw you more than 1 card, and provide some meaningful information when going to fetch. I will be trying out Kitchen Finks soon as well, and attempt a slightly more beat-down plan.
EDIT:
Decks I played against were midrange/value decks. I believe the matchups to be pretty good in that they either focus on 1-to-1 removal, or have little in the way of counterspells. Generally I was allowed to do my thing, however I feel Strangleroot and Courser sticking around did play into that:
Junk
BR Pack Rat
U/W Emeria
Grixis Shadow
Great list and great job! I agree that Summoner's Pact seems better right now. It really does feel like the core "concept" behind devotion is coalescing at this point.
SaffronOlive did a budget Modern deck tech with video matchups on MTGgoldfish for mono-green devotion. Below is the link if anyone is interested. It seems like Primal Command is excellent against Death Shadow Jund!
I was actually surprised how good that deck performed, it really showed the power of Primal Command in this deck.
I'm actually interested enough to try and build my own version of Green-Devotion based on this list.
Some intersting differences I've noticed compared to other lists:
#It plays Voyaging Satyr as another Arbor Elf that can also untap Nykthos which seems really good, probably at the cost of not playing Burning-Tree Emissary in the deck which seems like a fine ommision (right ?).
#Manideck Scavenging Ooze and Thragtusk (or maybe Obstinate Baloth instead) seem like a good idea to stabilize against aggressive decks and have maindeck answer to GY's.
#I also like the inclusion of Elvish Visionary (or Carven Caryatid but the 3-drops slot is too packed) to cycle through the deck and mitigate flooding.
#Harmonize is obviously a budget concession but some sort of card-draw option to take advantage of all the mana this deck produces and not run out of gas seems like the right idea, I'm thinking about PW's for this role like: Garruk, Primal Hunter or Nissa, Vital Force.
#With so many good tools against creature decks Hornet Queen seems less necessary and something like: Woodfall Primus/Terastodon/Sylvan Primordial to hit non-creatures would be a better idea imho.
Btw, quite a few big mana strategies have been adopting Walking Ballista as a removal and a mana sink that can also finish games, do you think it can be good here as well (maybe in the SB) ?
Very cool list!
And yes, I have been extremely impressed with Walking Ballista. Gets us around a lot of problem cards too (can kill Etched Champion...lets us kill through a Bridge, lets us deal that last few peices of damage during board stall, etc.) I definitely would advise trying it out.
Yeah so I"m also not sure whether Courser of Kruphix of or Wistful Selkie is better. Since Courser has variance due to topdecks, it's not a clearcut answer. That 3 Devotion can be very important and the 2/4 body, being able to view your top card with fetchlands handy, and the life gain can also be relevant. It's a tough call.
@ CurdBros
I'm going to test your list again, but without Kiora, I think 3 colors is a bit too unreliable. Of course I get mana screwed on my first test.
Since you run Woodland Bellower, you might want to include a maindeck Reclamation Sage if you're not playing Acidic Slime. Acidic Slime is a much better card, but you don't have Pacts or Commands to fetch for it, which is one reason why I like those lists a lot. All in all your list seems slower and a bit jankier, but if you think it's better than the list from the Dallas Open piloted by Tony Skrzypczak, please explain. I'd really like to know what I'm missing. Also, have 4 mana dorks means that some draws you will just do nothing. Isn't Duskwatch Recruiter a bit too slow? He has 1 devotion and it's expensive to activate.
One reason I love the Nissa, Voice of Zendikar list from Dallas, is that it has a consistent Overrun gameplan, between Garruk, Nissa, and Craterhoof. A lot of games are won by just ulti'ing Garruk. And with Nissa, mainboarding Hornet Queen is much more acceptable. Basically the deck I'm running is the same as his list minus the Sudden Shock in the sideboard for a few more hate creatures, and I also removed the Tireless Tracker completely and moved Thrun, the Last Troll to the sideboard. Also, I +1'd Eternal Witness and added a Kitchen Finks.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I am in the process of writing a big thing answering/detailing some of your questions/comments; but by no means do you need to play my list. I do appreciate the feedback though. I think your list looks awesome too.
And in honesty; I removed Kiora (and Spreading Seas) for about the last 100 - 120 games
I'll post my new list shortly (right after my little blurb I'm on) to let you know the changes...but you are on top of things (as Kiora was one of the changes that occurred when I switched the board...as she is only worth it if there are blue side board options too).
Im spoiler-tagging my long-winded stuff (so I don't take up a page but I do have to say that the 24th place list at the Open looks like a pretty "near perfect" Pact list:
I don't love the tracker I could see other cards in 1-2 other slots...but all in all I'd say this is pretty darn good for where Devotion is at right now.
@ CurdBros Your link just directs to the SCG homepage, but I provided the deck below.
This style of Green Devotion, I agree, seems to be about near perfect. But I'd like to talk about any potential minor adjustments, so here's the decklist one more time.
After testing with Nissa, I've realized it's insane, and definitely better than all the other options. I mean how can one play Wistful Selkie over a 3 drop Planeswalker xD. Now really... This should have been obvious to us all before.
Now my question is, can anything else be changed? I have some questions that I'm having trouble answering myself with 100% conviction. Anyone feel free to weigh in.
@CurdBros what changes were you thinking?
My Questions
I'm not quite positive that Thrun should be removed from the mainboard, but it just doesn't seem necessary.
Can we afford to cut 1 or 2 Birds for other creatures? In this list I don't mind having the extra birds because of the Garruk and Nissa gameplan.
Is Blood Moon necessary and for what matchups? Since it slows us down and ruins the Kessig plan, we have to be very thoughtful about which matchus this is worth it.
Also, after some testing with Nissa, I found it's really good. Doesn't die to removal, infimite chump blockers, control has trouble winning if she ultis, creates dudes for Craterhoof, and pumps the team. It also turns Hornet Queen into a more offensive card, making it great in the main deck.
Also, can you link the article you mentioned by Ari Lax and Sam Stoddard?
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Yep...I've put a link to the Ari article in my big blurb I'm formatting. All he really said is that it "could be the next big thing" and that it attacks from interesting angles...
Yeah..Uegjo has proven that Tooth and Nail can absolutely compete. I will post his list on the Primer (as it has seen the most success).
----
Sorry for delay in message...I've been working with Chord of Calling the last 4 days and want to make sure I have at least 100 games worth of data to put out any opinion.
Yeah..Uegjo has proven that Tooth and Nail can absolutely compete. I will post his list on the Primer (as it has seen the most success).
I've seen his lists. I'm not sure I like it though. It seems quite weak to Ghost Quarter and LD with all the Enchant Land ramp Spells. How does he deal with Counterspells?
He's running Blood Moon mainboard which is powerful, and he can definitely get away with it because he only has 1 Nykthos. I'm still unsure about Blood Moon. Is Crumble to Dust better in here? Besides Scapeshift and Tron I'm not sure when to bring in Blood Moon, but those to decks are Staples of the format. I suppose it could also be good vs Infect and some control decks?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Always wear protection kids, sleeve up your deck.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Blood Moon is a stall mechanic. Sure against some decks, it's a hoser. However, against a lot of the field, it's simple a means to slow down the opponent until you have enough mana to go off. Furthermore, I don't think it's right to compare Tooth & Nail to devotion. T&N is a combo deck. If you look at the mana curve, they are distinctly lacking any sort of threat between 3-5 cmc. For this reason, it is harder for them to come back when their mana acceleration is disrupted. Devotion plays some threats up the curve, so it doesn't stumble as much. However, it doesn't have quite the 1-turn kill potential as T&N.
@Rendroc
1) The # of Oath of Nissa depends on your configuration. I don't think there's a hard and fast rule as to how many you should play, it's better to feel that out by yourself by putting in some reps.
2) No, I don't think Thrun is necessary in the mainboard. I think he shines most against true control, however against pseudo-control like Jeskai Flash, he can be chump blocked and killed out of nowhere. I've taken him out of both boards based on my local meta.
3) I think Swagdaddy is better, yes. Baloth is good against Lili, however after that point, it loses it's benefits. Namely, it can be pushed. It doesn't trade with Tasigur, Reality Smasher, or Gurmag Angler. I don't see 4 mana being a huge difference to 5 for us, so I've opted for Thragtusk.
4) Against decks like Affinity and Infect, Sudden Shock is pretty necessary, it really depends on your meta.
5) Chameleon Colossus is a somewhat new addition to the green all-star lineup, so it's hard to say if it's necessary. It shines in Grixis and Jund matchups, however aside from that it can be a little disappointing.
6) I tried Blood Moon once, however I could never bring myself to bring it in. Against Tron, I think it's better to be explosive with an aggressive start and some land destruction than Blood Moon. Against Scapeshift, yes Blood Moon wins the game. Aside from that, I don't see too much need for it.
7) Tireless Tracker is for card draw, plain and simple. It's something this deck struggles with and something you have to balance when constructing your threat base. I personally don't think it's that great in devotion.
1) Funny thing, I have actually put Thrun back in the mainboard, because he's so good against decks running spot removal. He's also a great Kessig target. He's been good for me.
2) I definitely will not be putting Tireless Tracker in, there's better stuff for me to be doing than investigating, and there's other ways to get card advantage, one way is Nissa Ulti
3) I like your comparison of Swagdaddy to Obstinate
4) Yeah, I suppose Sudden Shock being good both against Affinity and Infect which can be issues for us, warrants its inclusion
5) I really think people are missing Terastodon from their lists, it feels great having that card in the sideboard knowing that you can deal with up to 3 problem cards all at once. The 3 Elephants are really not an issue.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Always wear protection kids, sleeve up your deck.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
So I've been browsing this thread for the last week or so watching your discussion and while at first I was kinda uninterested since I'm coming back to the Tooth and Nail deck, which is what I played a few years ago before branching out into UW Control, then KikiChord and then Esper Control (and then I traded in most of my modern cards because I was mostly playing legacy, and then I stopped playing the game for a while - but now I'm coming back into it). However I have to say this discussion is really intriguing to me and it may push me towards picking up some of the more midrangey devotion cards and giving one of those builds a spin.
I do think the changes you've suggested to the SCG24 list are good.
1) Oath of Nissa probably feels better at 3 to me without having played it at all. The fact that additional copies can still gain the card is nice, but the fact that it doesn't stay around for the devotion count is kind of meh. Generally speaking 3 is for a card you definitely want to see a copy of, maybe a 2nd one. 4 is for a card you always want to see multiple copies of. I don't know that we always want to see multiple copies of Oath, but we might be ok with seeing 2 from time to time. I'm not sure if this means to start at 3 and see if you feel like you want the extra, or to start at 4 to confirm that you're seeing it too often. Just some thoughts.
2) I think Thrun as a singleton is good to get around any control or midrange that might have removal. Especially in my meta I know there's a guy playing Esper Control and there's potentially others playing control, so if I were to swap I'd keep Thrun at least in the sideboard but probably the mainboard. He's no slouch.
3) I agree completely with Gruul's analysis on Swagtusk vs Obstinate Baloth. The mana cost should be mostly inconsequential, so it's +1 life and a body if he gets removed vs being able to discard him to synchronous discard effects or maybe getting lucky against a targeted discard without another valid target. Honestly the number of times I've had Baloth in hand and unable to do anything with him because the opponent Thoughtseized or Inquistioned and saw him (thus not using Liliana but leaving her as a problem for the -2 on the board) just makes me wish I could cast Thragtusk instead which gives sacrifice protection. That and Fatal Push make Baloth quite a bit weaker. The gotcha moments are fun, but playing Swagtusk in general is just more fun on average.
4) Sudden Shock has play against Affinity, Infect and Ad Nauseum (if they go for the Lab Maniac kill). It also will just deal with smaller creatures. I have to imagine this slot is meta dependent and you'll include it (or bolts instead, or something else instead) based on what you're expecting to face.
5) Chameleon Colossus seems like a house vs Death's Shadow and other BGx decks. He might be less good against Junk since they'll likely still have Paths, but against Jund most of their removal is blank against him. Again probably meta dependent and I think his inclusion was primarily in response to the rise of Death's Shadow, where it's probably a trump card.
6) I'm maindecking blood moons in the Tooth and Nail List (I'm basically just starting with Uegjo's latest list until I get a feel for the changes I want to make) and I know I will enjoy them because there's typically a fairly significant Tron/Eldrazi presence in my meta. I do think they lack synergy in the devotion deck with the extra copies of Nykthos, but you're definitely going to want access to them out of the sideboard just to give you enough time to go over Tron's head in particular. If it's control decks you're concerned with, Choke might be a better option, but it doesn't do much versus the Jund and Junks and Death Shadow's, where Blood Moon can definitely put them in a corner. I'd probably keep the count at 2 in the sideboard for the Devotion deck.
6a) Crumble to Dust vs Blood Moon. Vs Manlands Crumble is probably better. It gets them completely out of the deck and you don't have to worry about them finding a way to get rid of Blood Moon and enable the lands to then do stuff. But vs Tron, I'm not sure. You can cast both before their turn 3 on the play probably very consistently since you just naturally have Blood Moon with 3 lands, and only require 1 accelerant to hit Crumble on that same turn. But on the draw, you need the Sprawl + Arbor Elf play to drop crumble on turn 2 before they can get something out with Tron on their turn 3, vs Blood Moon only requiring a turn 1 accelerant. Crumble definitely permanently cripples them, where an OStone can eventually get them out of a Blood Moon lock (or a Nature's Claim if they hit green mana - which probably isn't too unlikely). That's a tough one.
7) I don't think I like Tireless Tracker all that much myself. Just seems like so many things you could be doing that are better.
"He plays in a walk in humidor so keep his foils from bending. He once kept an all land hand just to know what it felt like to be mana flooded. He uses power nine for ante. He is the most interesting magic playing in the world." Old man, "I don't always tap basic lands for mana, but when i do, I tap Gurus."
In my testing, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar has been great. She is basically the Gavony Township in Mono-Green Devotion. Easy to cast and makes all our dorks better at going offensive/defensive also -2'ing her is the most frequent mode I've used. If the opp wants to waste an attack on her at 1 loyalty that is fine since I play 4 Eternal Witness to recur and do the same thing again. I only have a one of but every time I've played her she made a big difference. I recommend her.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Just saw that Green Devotion put up another strong result, this time taking 1st at the Wyoming TCGPlayer States: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/598606#online. It appears to be more a traditional list rather than toolbox, but includes some new cards like Rishkar's Expertise. Go Green!
@Gary238, I believe by R/G Ponza they are referring to only the Land Destruction deck not to our ramp deck.
Here are some decklists that have shown up recently. Both Tooth and Nail lists, and maybe that should be a separate thread, but I'd like for people to compare the two decks and see which is ultimately better.
This one took 5th at SCG Super IQ States in San Diego, CA. I'm not sure how many players attended though:
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I was actually surprised how good that deck performed, it really showed the power of Primal Command in this deck.
I'm actually interested enough to try and build my own version of Green-Devotion based on this list.
Some intersting differences I've noticed compared to other lists:
#It plays Voyaging Satyr as another Arbor Elf that can also untap Nykthos which seems really good, probably at the cost of not playing Burning-Tree Emissary in the deck which seems like a fine ommision (right ?).
#Manideck Scavenging Ooze and Thragtusk (or maybe Obstinate Baloth instead) seem like a good idea to stabilize against aggressive decks and have maindeck answer to GY's.
#I also like the inclusion of Elvish Visionary (or Carven Caryatid but the 3-drops slot is too packed) to cycle through the deck and mitigate flooding.
#Harmonize is obviously a budget concession but some sort of card-draw option to take advantage of all the mana this deck produces and not run out of gas seems like the right idea, I'm thinking about PW's for this role like: Garruk, Primal Hunter or Nissa, Vital Force.
#With so many good tools against creature decks Hornet Queen seems less necessary and something like: Woodfall Primus/Terastodon/Sylvan Primordial to hit non-creatures would be a better idea imho.
Here is the list I have in mind:
4x Arbor Elf
3x Elvish Mystic
2x Voyaging Satyr
3x Elvish Visionary
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Wistful Selkie
3x Eternal Witness
2x Courser of Kruphix
1x Polukranos, World Eater
3x Thragtusk
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Terastodon
4x Utopia Sprawl
Planeswalker (2)
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
Sorcery (4)
4x Primal Command
Land (21)
17x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Creeping Corrosion
2x Beast Within
3x Kitchen Finks
1x Fracturing Gust
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Nissa, Vital Force
2x Dismember
2x Acidic Slime
1x Sylvan Primordial
1x Hornet Queen
Btw, quite a few big mana strategies have been adopting Walking Ballista as a removal and a mana sink that can also finish games, do you think it can be good here as well (maybe in the SB) ?
Primevil Titan let's you fetch for Kessig and Nykthos consistently and that package wins a lot of games quickly. If they kill the Titan you can still make a huge attack with one of your small guys. It's really not a build-around-me card, it just closes out games fast and provides resilience and consistency.
I'm looking at your list, and scratching my head, but I guess I have to test it to understand. It seems like it does a lot of cute stuff, but it's generally slower than other lists. I like that my list can win turn 3 or 4 with Craterhoof.
Also, I'm not convinced that Blood Moon is worth a spot, since it's bad with Nykthos. Do people use it just for Tron or for 3+ color decks as well??
I feel that cards like Courser of Kruphix and Fauna Shaman are slow and better for grinding. I think Mono Green Devotion should have a very fast consistent gameplan, and then have a toolbox of creatures to deal with any situation that could arise.
I also don't like Strangleroot in theory, because it doesn't let you dump devotion on the board as fast as BTE. It's just a better blocker, and I guess helps you get aggro too, though this is more of a combo deck.
Can you explain why Bellower is good?
Also, a lot of people are running Thragtusk, and I think that Pelakka Wurm deserves a mention.
About Nissa, Voice of Zendikar; I'm really having trouble deciding if I should have more of these in my deck. It creates guys for craterhoof sure, and I guess it can create one more dude if play her then cast Hoof the following turn after you activaate her a second time. It comboes with Kitchen Finks. It creates and endless supply of Chump blockers. And it can pump our entire team. It also gives us some resiliency to wrath effects. Kitchen finks can also trade with creatures. I do see how it's a great card in many ways though. It can also fill up the board with big beaters fast in conjuction with Garruk's beast tokens. I'd say the best argument for having Nissa is that is better vs removal, especially Path to Exile unlike Finks, and it's good vs Wrath effects. It really tough deciding what my mainboard 3 drops should be, but Witness and Selkie provide card draw and card advantage as well as being a little bit faster so I'm sticking with them for now, although that might be incorrect. I'd love to be able to play more Nissa's. I do think that list that placed 24th at Dallas was a really great Devotion list.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Great list and great job! I agree that Summoner's Pact seems better right now. It really does feel like the core "concept" behind devotion is coalescing at this point.
Very cool list!
And yes, I have been extremely impressed with Walking Ballista. Gets us around a lot of problem cards too (can kill Etched Champion...lets us kill through a Bridge, lets us deal that last few peices of damage during board stall, etc.) I definitely would advise trying it out.
@ CurdBros
I'm going to test your list again, but without Kiora, I think 3 colors is a bit too unreliable. Of course I get mana screwed on my first test.
Since you run Woodland Bellower, you might want to include a maindeck Reclamation Sage if you're not playing Acidic Slime. Acidic Slime is a much better card, but you don't have Pacts or Commands to fetch for it, which is one reason why I like those lists a lot. All in all your list seems slower and a bit jankier, but if you think it's better than the list from the Dallas Open piloted by Tony Skrzypczak, please explain. I'd really like to know what I'm missing. Also, have 4 mana dorks means that some draws you will just do nothing. Isn't Duskwatch Recruiter a bit too slow? He has 1 devotion and it's expensive to activate.
One reason I love the Nissa, Voice of Zendikar list from Dallas, is that it has a consistent Overrun gameplan, between Garruk, Nissa, and Craterhoof. A lot of games are won by just ulti'ing Garruk. And with Nissa, mainboarding Hornet Queen is much more acceptable. Basically the deck I'm running is the same as his list minus the Sudden Shock in the sideboard for a few more hate creatures, and I also removed the Tireless Tracker completely and moved Thrun, the Last Troll to the sideboard. Also, I +1'd Eternal Witness and added a Kitchen Finks.
I put Terastodon, Polukranos, World Eater, Chameleon Colossus, and Obstinate Baloth in the sideboard in place of 3 Sudden shock and a one of the Blood Moons, since Terastodon can serve a similar purpose and also deals with other random problem cards including Planeswalkers.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I am in the process of writing a big thing answering/detailing some of your questions/comments; but by no means do you need to play my list. I do appreciate the feedback though. I think your list looks awesome too.
And in honesty; I removed Kiora (and Spreading Seas) for about the last 100 - 120 games
I'll post my new list shortly (right after my little blurb I'm on) to let you know the changes...but you are on top of things (as Kiora was one of the changes that occurred when I switched the board...as she is only worth it if there are blue side board options too).
http://www.starcitygames.com/index.php
I don't love the tracker I could see other cards in 1-2 other slots...but all in all I'd say this is pretty darn good for where Devotion is at right now.
This style of Green Devotion, I agree, seems to be about near perfect. But I'd like to talk about any potential minor adjustments, so here's the decklist one more time.
Tony Skrzypczak's Dallas Open Green Devotion
Creatures 19
1 Acidic Slime
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Eternal Witness
1 Hornet Queen
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
Lands 21
6 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Enchantments 8
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Oath of Nissa
Instant 4
4 Summoner's Pact
Sorcery 1
1 Primal Command
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Thragtusk
2 Blood Moon
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Sudden Shock
2 Creeping Corrosion
And this is my slightly different list
Creature 19
1 Acidic Slime
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Eternal Witness
1 Hornet Queen
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Oath of Nissa
// 4 Instant
4 Summoner's Pact
// 21 Land
6 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
// 7 Planeswalker
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
// 1 Sorcery
1 Primal Command
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Terastodon
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Thragtusk
1 Blood Moon
2 Sudden Shock
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Creeping Corrosion
Basically the deck I'm running is the same as his but I removed the Tireless Tracker completely. I moved one Kitchen Finks to the mainboard. I put Terastodon, Polukranos, World Eater, Chameleon Colossus, and Obstinate Baloth in the sideboard in place of 3 Sudden Shock a Thragtusk and one of the Blood Moons, since Terastodon can serve a similar purpose and also deals with other random problem noncreature cards including Planeswalkers.
After testing with Nissa, I've realized it's insane, and definitely better than all the other options. I mean how can one play Wistful Selkie over a 3 drop Planeswalker xD. Now really... This should have been obvious to us all before.
Now my question is, can anything else be changed? I have some questions that I'm having trouble answering myself with 100% conviction. Anyone feel free to weigh in.
@CurdBros what changes were you thinking?
My Questions
Can we afford to cut 1 or 2 Birds for other creatures? In this list I don't mind having the extra birds because of the Garruk and Nissa gameplan.
Is 4 Oath of Nissa better than 3?
Is Thrun, the Last Troll necessary in the mainboard?
Is Thragtusk better than Obstinate Baloth?
Is Sudden Shock a necessary sideboard card? Most notably, to deal with infect?
Is Chameleon Colossus necessary?
Is Blood Moon necessary and for what matchups? Since it slows us down and ruins the Kessig plan, we have to be very thoughtful about which matchus this is worth it.
And why Tireless Tracker in the first place?
Also, after some testing with Nissa, I found it's really good. Doesn't die to removal, infimite chump blockers, control has trouble winning if she ultis, creates dudes for Craterhoof, and pumps the team. It also turns Hornet Queen into a more offensive card, making it great in the main deck.
Also, can you link the article you mentioned by Ari Lax and Sam Stoddard?
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Yeah..Uegjo has proven that Tooth and Nail can absolutely compete. I will post his list on the Primer (as it has seen the most success).
----
Sorry for delay in message...I've been working with Chord of Calling the last 4 days and want to make sure I have at least 100 games worth of data to put out any opinion.
I've seen his lists. I'm not sure I like it though. It seems quite weak to Ghost Quarter and LD with all the Enchant Land ramp Spells. How does he deal with Counterspells?
He's running Blood Moon mainboard which is powerful, and he can definitely get away with it because he only has 1 Nykthos. I'm still unsure about Blood Moon. Is Crumble to Dust better in here? Besides Scapeshift and Tron I'm not sure when to bring in Blood Moon, but those to decks are Staples of the format. I suppose it could also be good vs Infect and some control decks?
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
@Rendroc
1) The # of Oath of Nissa depends on your configuration. I don't think there's a hard and fast rule as to how many you should play, it's better to feel that out by yourself by putting in some reps.
2) No, I don't think Thrun is necessary in the mainboard. I think he shines most against true control, however against pseudo-control like Jeskai Flash, he can be chump blocked and killed out of nowhere. I've taken him out of both boards based on my local meta.
3) I think Swagdaddy is better, yes. Baloth is good against Lili, however after that point, it loses it's benefits. Namely, it can be pushed. It doesn't trade with Tasigur, Reality Smasher, or Gurmag Angler. I don't see 4 mana being a huge difference to 5 for us, so I've opted for Thragtusk.
4) Against decks like Affinity and Infect, Sudden Shock is pretty necessary, it really depends on your meta.
5) Chameleon Colossus is a somewhat new addition to the green all-star lineup, so it's hard to say if it's necessary. It shines in Grixis and Jund matchups, however aside from that it can be a little disappointing.
6) I tried Blood Moon once, however I could never bring myself to bring it in. Against Tron, I think it's better to be explosive with an aggressive start and some land destruction than Blood Moon. Against Scapeshift, yes Blood Moon wins the game. Aside from that, I don't see too much need for it.
7) Tireless Tracker is for card draw, plain and simple. It's something this deck struggles with and something you have to balance when constructing your threat base. I personally don't think it's that great in devotion.
1) Funny thing, I have actually put Thrun back in the mainboard, because he's so good against decks running spot removal. He's also a great Kessig target. He's been good for me.
2) I definitely will not be putting Tireless Tracker in, there's better stuff for me to be doing than investigating, and there's other ways to get card advantage, one way is Nissa Ulti
3) I like your comparison of Swagdaddy to Obstinate
4) Yeah, I suppose Sudden Shock being good both against Affinity and Infect which can be issues for us, warrants its inclusion
5) I really think people are missing Terastodon from their lists, it feels great having that card in the sideboard knowing that you can deal with up to 3 problem cards all at once. The 3 Elephants are really not an issue.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I do think the changes you've suggested to the SCG24 list are good.
1) Oath of Nissa probably feels better at 3 to me without having played it at all. The fact that additional copies can still gain the card is nice, but the fact that it doesn't stay around for the devotion count is kind of meh. Generally speaking 3 is for a card you definitely want to see a copy of, maybe a 2nd one. 4 is for a card you always want to see multiple copies of. I don't know that we always want to see multiple copies of Oath, but we might be ok with seeing 2 from time to time. I'm not sure if this means to start at 3 and see if you feel like you want the extra, or to start at 4 to confirm that you're seeing it too often. Just some thoughts.
2) I think Thrun as a singleton is good to get around any control or midrange that might have removal. Especially in my meta I know there's a guy playing Esper Control and there's potentially others playing control, so if I were to swap I'd keep Thrun at least in the sideboard but probably the mainboard. He's no slouch.
3) I agree completely with Gruul's analysis on Swagtusk vs Obstinate Baloth. The mana cost should be mostly inconsequential, so it's +1 life and a body if he gets removed vs being able to discard him to synchronous discard effects or maybe getting lucky against a targeted discard without another valid target. Honestly the number of times I've had Baloth in hand and unable to do anything with him because the opponent Thoughtseized or Inquistioned and saw him (thus not using Liliana but leaving her as a problem for the -2 on the board) just makes me wish I could cast Thragtusk instead which gives sacrifice protection. That and Fatal Push make Baloth quite a bit weaker. The gotcha moments are fun, but playing Swagtusk in general is just more fun on average.
4) Sudden Shock has play against Affinity, Infect and Ad Nauseum (if they go for the Lab Maniac kill). It also will just deal with smaller creatures. I have to imagine this slot is meta dependent and you'll include it (or bolts instead, or something else instead) based on what you're expecting to face.
5) Chameleon Colossus seems like a house vs Death's Shadow and other BGx decks. He might be less good against Junk since they'll likely still have Paths, but against Jund most of their removal is blank against him. Again probably meta dependent and I think his inclusion was primarily in response to the rise of Death's Shadow, where it's probably a trump card.
6) I'm maindecking blood moons in the Tooth and Nail List (I'm basically just starting with Uegjo's latest list until I get a feel for the changes I want to make) and I know I will enjoy them because there's typically a fairly significant Tron/Eldrazi presence in my meta. I do think they lack synergy in the devotion deck with the extra copies of Nykthos, but you're definitely going to want access to them out of the sideboard just to give you enough time to go over Tron's head in particular. If it's control decks you're concerned with, Choke might be a better option, but it doesn't do much versus the Jund and Junks and Death Shadow's, where Blood Moon can definitely put them in a corner. I'd probably keep the count at 2 in the sideboard for the Devotion deck.
6a) Crumble to Dust vs Blood Moon. Vs Manlands Crumble is probably better. It gets them completely out of the deck and you don't have to worry about them finding a way to get rid of Blood Moon and enable the lands to then do stuff. But vs Tron, I'm not sure. You can cast both before their turn 3 on the play probably very consistently since you just naturally have Blood Moon with 3 lands, and only require 1 accelerant to hit Crumble on that same turn. But on the draw, you need the Sprawl + Arbor Elf play to drop crumble on turn 2 before they can get something out with Tron on their turn 3, vs Blood Moon only requiring a turn 1 accelerant. Crumble definitely permanently cripples them, where an OStone can eventually get them out of a Blood Moon lock (or a Nature's Claim if they hit green mana - which probably isn't too unlikely). That's a tough one.
7) I don't think I like Tireless Tracker all that much myself. Just seems like so many things you could be doing that are better.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
http://modernnexus.com/metagame-breakdown-feb-17/
Great stuff! Loving the discussion, and will weigh in with some of my thoughts in a bit.
Here are some decklists that have shown up recently. Both Tooth and Nail lists, and maybe that should be a separate thread, but I'd like for people to compare the two decks and see which is ultimately better.
This one took 5th at SCG Super IQ States in San Diego, CA. I'm not sure how many players attended though:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20965&iddeck=160340
This one took 1st at an SCG Qualifier, again I'm unsure of how many players show up though:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20965&iddeck=160340
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
They mention Green Devotion in the paragraph after they discuss R/G Ponza.