@CurdBros - I’ve been really impressed by your primer, and how fun this deck looks. I’ve spent the good part of two days thinking of different cards that may work well in this deck type that I haven’t seen mentioned here.
A few pages back, you mention this as one of your conclusions: “We probably can only consistently perform well if we incorporate main-board disruption into our decks.”
From here, you mention Primal Command, Karn Liberated, Polukranos, and Acidic Slime to provide disruption. All these are excellent choices, but I did a search of this forum and I didn’t see mention of Vraska the Unseen. Have you considered, or tried her in a Walker build? While she doesn’t have the raw power of some walkers, she can provide extremely versatile disruption/defense when needed. She doesn’t do much when she’s not needed, but even then she can tick up to destroy your opponent’s next played threat. I play tested her briefly as a four-of vs. Jund and I haven’t been disappointed thus far (although it is way too early to form a conclusion). I do wonder, however, if it would just be better to just go over-the-top and overwhelm my opponent using other means, than to destroy their permanents. Please keep in mind that I have very little experience with this deck!
Another card I’d like to try in some version of this deck with Oath of Nissa, is Mulldrifter. Here are my thoughts on its merits:
1) Easy to cast w/BoP, Fertile Ground, etc.
2) Can be used early game w/Evoke, and cast normally later (5 CMC is easy for this deck) to keep the 2/2 flying body. I love how this can be cast early for 3 mana to build card advantage, while Inquisition of Kozilek can’t touch it.
3) Can be searched for with Oath of Nissa, and cast with Genesis Hydra. Casting a Hydra for a 5/5 body, a 2/2 flyer, and drawing two extra cards is fantastic value.
4) Extra body to use for Garruk's Ultimate.
I’m about to try a deck somewhat similar to your last posted Ramp Walker build, but I’m using Vraska, Elspeth - Sun’s Champion, Garruk, and Nicol Bolas as my planeswalkers, along with Mulldrifter for extra card advantage. With my luck it will probably do poorly, but I enjoy brewing…and what’s more fun than ramping into Nicol Bolas???
@creamgravy: Thanks for pointing out the Enchantress Devotion, I edited that in.
@curdbros: Fertile Ground: I have been on and off playing, here are my experiences;
Great T2 play after T1 Arbor Elf/Bop gets removed
Synergy with all the available untap effect
Supreme Mana fixing
Ramp which is safe from removal
Can not be hit by oath
On the slow side/low impact
dead card lategame
It makes a lot of sense in your Planeswalker build, the card is best suited if you go for a more midrange/grindy playstyle, in Decks primarily focused on speed it loses it's viability imho.
@Rulleboren: A blue Splash for Kiora & Negates is worth it (Lunik has explained the strengths of them very well).
What I noticed is that the opponent does not suspect you to play counters. So keep up 1U and act all frustrated because you have no plays. Then when they cascade into Living End, or try to cast Ugin, Karn or any other big noncreature game changer, you get to go: nope!
Protecting your genesis wave against counters is just as good.
@Lamps: What a cool idea. You have pointed out Mulldrifters strength very well (the flying is very relevant), however we have to keep in mind that it does not add any devotion, contesting with the 3 drop slot = aka what do you take out to make room for it?(Kitchen Finks, Courser of Kruphix, etc).
But he should definitely shine in grindier matchups.
@Flaat: It really comes down to Noble Hierarch vs Birds of Paradise. Birds can make R and is flying (keep in mind Inkmoth Nexus). The Exalted is not that relevant in devotion decks because mostly you will alpha strike with the whole team.
After getting in a couple of games, i switched from 2x Fertile Ground, 2x Voyaging Satyr to 4x Strangleroot Geist.
Nissa: Great for the beatdown plan, soaks up a lot of damage, Emblem is good, good enough for the opponent to target her.
I have gotten very low on ramp (no BoP) because T1 ramp is not as crucial in here, having 4 mana on T3 or 5 mana on T4 is what it's all about, and Oath does overtime setting that up.
@Lamps: What a cool idea. You have pointed out Mulldrifters strength very well (the flying is very relevant), however we have to keep in mind that it does not add any devotion, contesting with the 3 drop slot = aka what do you take out to make room for it?(Kitchen Finks, Courser of Kruphix, etc).
But he should definitely shine in grindier matchups.
Nice deck, jaccjacc! I agree with your reduction of Voyaging Satyr and Fertile Ground in your build. How are the Strangleroots treating you?
@SJTBR - Thanks for the kind words! Green devotion decks are a brewer's dream
As far as the Mulldrifters go, I took out 2x Courser of Kruphix and 2x Voyaging Satyr from my deck to make room for them. I felt that the Coursers were too low-impact, and the Satyrs were terrible top deck draws. I wanted something that would help me get to my bigger answers, and the Mulldrifters have been doing well so far. They are good draws early and late game, but I can see how my deck could suffer vs. fast aggro. Being that I have a Walker build, I think Gideon Jura and Chandra, Flamecaller would help vs those types of decks. Plussing up Vraska may help against small creatures/tokens. I'm also waiting on Nissa VF to arrive in the mail, based on what I read in this thread. Her +1 can provide good defense. What card(s) do you all feel would help the most vs fast aggro in a Walker build?
Other musings - I'm thinking of trying Tezzeret's Gambit and/or Oath of Gideon to bolster my Walkers' loyalty, while providing other value. I think both would be good with Garruk Wildspeaker, Nissa, Vital Force, and Vraska the Unseen. All of these Walkers have ultimates that can be reached quickly. Vraska's -3 ability (the main reason to use her) can also be used twice in a row, if ignored. The tokens from Oath of Gideon, can also make great use of Garruk's ultimate.
Final musing - Has anyone tried Slithermuse in an aggressive devotion build? I think one of the biggest problems these types of decks can run into is emptying your hand to build a lot of mana, but running out of gas quickly. Like Mulldrifter, I think Slithermuse can help rebuild your hand, while maintaining the ability to be fetched using Oath of Nissa.
As you can see from my ten 5 CMC spells, getting to five mana is the sweet spot for this deck, with several ramp combinations to help make that happen.
Vraska and Gideon serve as both disruption and point defense, with Vraska working much like an assassin: She can kill anything, but she is vulnerable after she strikes. Besides killing creatures, Gideon also works well to take the pressure off my other walkers.
Gideon (also), Nissa, and Thragtusk are mainly for general defense while I build up for an alpha strike, but can easily take an offensive role when the opportunity presents itself. Thragtusk will hopefully help me recover against early assaults. I only recently realized that Nissa’s +1 can work well with Arbor Elf’s land untap ability.
Nicol Bolas and Genesis Hydra are my haymakers…self explanatory.
Regarding my “weird” choices of Weirding Wood and Slithermuse: I chose Weirding Wood over Fertile Ground for three reasons:
1) With six CMC 1 ramp spells, turn two Weirding Woods should be fairly easy to the point that the one extra CMC over Fertile Ground shouldn’t matter much. I may add another BoP to help cast it more consistently on turn 2, however.
2) The Investigate token will mitigate the otherwise bad late-game topdeck problem that Fertile Ground suffers from. It also “caches” an extra draw off of an evoked Slithermuse.
3) The double mana of any color can help to hard-cast Gideon or Bolas, should I have no Oath of Nissa in play. It can also be used to cast Slithermuse for UU to keep it in play as a 3/3 creature, assuming I don’t want to use the Evoke ability to get the cards at that point in the game.
As far as Slithermuse goes, I suspect it will help strengthen the weakest aspect of a ramp deck: when you only draw land and ramp spells. At the very least, it is a 3/3 creature or a cantrip. At that point though, my opponent probably has no cards in hand, so it will probably only be bad when my opponent is in a bad position. On the other hand, it has the potential to completely swing a game around. If it is the only card in my hand, and my opponent has at least two cards in his/her hand (that he can’t/won’t want to cast in response), it is still a “draw three (or more)” that can be fetched with Oath of Nissa.
As soon as I get a chance to test this prototype monster of a deck, I’ll let you all know how it goes. I’m keeping my expectations low, though.
Edit: Realized how bad this deck would do against decks with any speed, whatsoever. I need to make it more resilient to burn, aggro, etc.
I find the Enchantress build interesting. My hesitancy is that it is often way more susceptible to burn than other builds. Still, quite interesting.
Totally agree. Eidolon of Blossoms is a card we all have had a love affair with since the day it was spoiled. It just seemed SO good (drawing a card when you play cards you want to play anyways like Utopia Sprawl...and only got better with Oath...
My testing never got there. It just seemed like those turns where I played a turn 2 or 3 Eidolon just to see it bolted/removed were devastating. The fact that it replaces itself, however, is huge. I never really tried it with Cloudstone Curio (only because you can only play so many "engine" cards) but that was my initial inclination.
I do have to say that the deck that placed looks quite strong. I certainly am going to test it if the Walker Deck hits a meta that doesn't "feel" good for it. It does, however, give me A TON of enthusiasm and interest that Eidolon may actually work as an engine for Devotion.
As you can see from my ten 5 CMC spells, getting to five mana is the sweet spot for this deck, with several ramp combinations to help make that happen.
Vraska and Gideon serve as both disruption and point defense, with Vraska working much like an assassin: She can kill anything, but she is vulnerable after she strikes. Besides killing creatures, Gideon also works well to take the pressure off my other walkers.
Gideon (also), Nissa, and Thragtusk are mainly for general defense while I build up for an alpha strike, but can easily take an offensive role when the opportunity presents itself. Thragtusk will hopefully help me recover against early assaults. I only recently realized that Nissa’s +1 can work well with Arbor Elf’s land untap ability.
Nicol Bolas and Genesis Hydra are my haymakers…self explanatory.
Regarding my “weird” choices of Weirding Wood and Slithermuse: I chose Weirding Wood over Fertile Ground for three reasons:
1) With six CMC 1 ramp spells, turn two Weirding Woods should be fairly easy to the point that the one extra CMC over Fertile Ground shouldn’t matter much. I may add another BoP to help cast it more consistently on turn 2, however.
2) The Investigate token will mitigate the otherwise bad late-game topdeck problem that Fertile Ground suffers from. It also “caches” an extra draw off of an evoked Slithermuse.
3) The double mana of any color can help to hard-cast Gideon or Bolas, should I have no Oath of Nissa in play. It can also be used to cast Slithermuse for UU to keep it in play as a 3/3 creature, assuming I don’t want to use the Evoke ability to get the cards at that point in the game.
As far as Slithermuse goes, I suspect it will help strengthen the weakest aspect of a ramp deck: when you only draw land and ramp spells. At the very least, it is a 3/3 creature or a cantrip. At that point though, my opponent probably has no cards in hand, so it will probably only be bad when my opponent is in a bad position. On the other hand, it has the potential to completely swing a game around. If it is the only card in my hand, and my opponent has at least two cards in his/her hand (that he can’t/won’t want to cast in response), it is still a “draw three (or more)” that can be fetched with Oath of Nissa.
As soon as I get a chance to test this prototype monster of a deck, I’ll let you all know how it goes. I’m keeping my expectations low, though.
Edit: Realized how bad this deck would do against decks with any speed, whatsoever. I need to make it more resilient to burn, aggro, etc.
You are absolutely right that 5-CMC is a sweet spot for a large portion of devotion decks. That's part of what makes Primal Command so great in so many builds. Good point.
I'm interested to hear how the deck performs! I haven't got to play a lot with some of the Walkers your playing; but I could certainly see times where Vraska and Gideon in particular could be great (especially Gideon).
I am on MTGO just literally playing a "Solitaire" game and Genesis Hydra worked!!!!
I'm going to send them a BIG "Thank You" (as I literally wrote them last week and they did take the time to point out that they truly were working on it and did take our requests seriously.). For as much as I (and I'm sure others) bothered them, we owe it to them to thank them and make sure we post that they were responsive to us.
You are absolutely right that 5-CMC is a sweet spot for a large portion of devotion decks. That's part of what makes Primal Command so great in so many builds. Good point.
I don't really agree that 5 CMC is the sweet spot for most Devotion decks. And if you find that is is your sweet spot then it is potentially part of the problem why most people are finding the 'If I only had one more turn' scenario that we have identified as a key problem so many times before.
A well paced competitive devotion deck plays along these lines most of the time (using our engine of land, mana dorks and Land Enchants) :
Maximum single cost Mana on turn 1, 2 and 3 = 1 > 3/4 > 4/5/6+
This is excluding explosive plays with cards such as BTE and Simian Spirit Guide. From this we can see that 4CMC is where we are most efficient as we can drop a 4CMC on turn 2 or 3 more consistently than other CMCs. Next to that is 3CMC as we can realistically have 3 CMC in multiple ways on turn 2 but also have 3CMC left over after playing a Garruk on Turn 3 if we do happen to have 5+ mana. This is why I think Wolfbriar and Garruk perform so well. We can play Wolfbriar on Turn 3 most games and if we have extra mana then we are getting huge amounts of value but it is still a playable card with no kicker. Garruk on turn 3 can create blockers if needs be and also ramp insanely fast. 5CMC is in the awkward position where we can't cast it on turn 2. Can't cast it on turn 3 reliably. But, on turn 4 we could be doing so much beyond 5CMC spells - Think Primeval Titan and other win conditions.
On the point of Primal Command - I am still not a fan of this spell. It adds no devotion and realistically it only creates heavy advantage with 8 or more mana already open to create the E-witness loop. It may be personal opinion but I see very few scenarios where I would rather play a Primal Command over a Wolfbrair kicked for 1 or a Garruk>Untap>3drop. If we are just looking to use it for removal we have better options in lower cost slots.
EDIT: Great news of Genesis Hydra being fixed. It's about time!
I ran the numbers on this a while back. What I figured out is that 3-mana turn 2s are really common, but it infrequent to have a 4+ mana turn 2. On turn 3, any amount of mana was possible but 5+ was pretty common. For this reason, I had no hesitation about using Command.
Even if you only have the five mana to cast Command, it can immediately push you out of burn range, ruin graveyard strategies, or just tutor up a Titan while it pushes back your opponent's mana development. Usually, some mix of these is better than a 4/4 + 2/2.
Don't get me wrong. I play 4 Garruk and 2 Wolfbriar. I like the 4-mana spot. But Command is just so powerful and outright wins so often that I think it's a mistake not to play 3-4 in any deck that reasonably supports it.
Won games with this build: 2-1 against Eldrazi and Taxes, Blue Moon, losing to another Eldrazi and taxes build
The Plow Under option almost always guarantees enough turns to build devotion for something good. If you get Primal Command, you get a soft lock going after the initial Plow Under. Gaea's Revenge (after Sideboarding) and Ruric Thar are spectacular bombs 3 turns after a Plow Under. Will playtest heavily next 2 weeks to find a viable Devotion alternative to RG Land D that includes the Deus of Calamity. I want to maindeck one Wrecking Ogre for good measure to guarantee an alpha strike with the Deus.
Can anyone post a guide for sideboarding against the meta? Against multicolor, the land disruption often screws other decks enough for me to pull off a win. Silent Arbiter helps stop symmetric aggro decks.
Can you guys playtest with a maindeck wrecking ogre too for alpha striking with one creature, this can be pumped with the devotion float off kessig wolf run too.
I know I don't post here anymore much at all due to RL things, but I still play. Here's where I'm at for the current metagame: Tuned for speed and consistency and maximum disruptiveness (for a devotion list).
I'm off Genesis Hydra for now for the first time in years - trying a playset of Visionaries in place of them for synergy with naked BTEs, Coursers where there's a pact on top I want to draw or another chance at hitting land that turn, and a body to receive buffs. Blood Moon is simply the best disruption in the format. Sure, we go wild with Nykthos and Kessig Wolf Run are part of our toolkit, but turn 2 Blood Moon also gives us another "unfair" angle to attack from, and many decks are soft to the card currently, same as ever. 2 in the maindeck gives us a chance to K.O. someone or lock them out if we don't explode onto the board, and diversifies our threats against controlling decks. Blue Moon can still be difficult, but I'm willing to give up points there to gain large points against the rest of the field. Temur Sabertooth has been good, but I wonder if it's just better as a Verduous Gearhulk or Acidic Slime. The Sabertooth is an excellent long-game plan as I've used it in the past, and has won me several games on the back of making a ton of the opponents draws dead. Hulk is similar in its effect on the game but is much more aggressive. I'll have to continue to test this. Cloudthresher is another card I'm considering in that slot.
Even with Blood Moon in play, we're still an impressive ramp deck and the deck's constructed to be able to play with one in play. A Garruk and one Utopia Sprawl with 4 lands in play still can equal a 4th turn Craterhoof Behemoth - we don't NEED to be crazy explosive, but the deck's core is still there and can goldfish plenty of turn 3 kills thanks to the consistency of the mana. Also missing are the Oath of Nissa I'd previously been playing. I'm valuing the consistency of a single card draw from the traditional cantrips over Oath because of how the sideboard is constructed, although it's possible the Abundant Growth is better served as a singleton Oath. Right now I'm very happy with where the deck is at, and as a 3-year devotion player, I encourage you all to give some of my technology a try.
Hey guys,
this is my first post on this forum, but ive been following the primer for quite some time and learned a lot about green devotion, so I decided to give some input back. I played my first modern tournament with a green devotion deck yesterday and had a blast! I only had tested against a friend with 3-4 different modern decks before. So here is my quick tournament report:
It was a pretty small fnm at my lgs with 11 or 12 players. I played a curio walker list and got to third place with a 3-1 finish, which I am very pleased with.
This match felt unwinnable. I lost both games in like 10 minutes. For game two I brought in 3 Bonfire, Silent Arbiter, 2 Spellkite, 2 Scavenging Ooze, 2 Obstinate Baloth and took out most of the combo and all the expensive stuff except from Hornet Queen. I had a fast start in both games, got early creatures and token generating planeswalkers out, so I was able to block nearly every attacker. Didn’t help much against the Temur Battle Rage + Become Immense combo he had in both games. I really don’t know how to win this matchup. Spellskite should obviously be good, but I never saw it. Maybe he got lucky with his early combo, but he got second place that tournament, so the deck seems to be able to do that pretty consistently.
Match 2:
2-1 against Merfolk
From that point on the tournament went much better.
Game one against Merfolk he had Vial out on turn one, but was pretty flooded on lands after he kept his seven. I mulliganed down to five, but could cast a few planeswalkers and he never found an islandwalk-lord to kill them. I resolved a Hornet Queen while ticking Garruk up to 4 and he scooped.
Game two he had a pretty fast start with two Vials. I didn’t. My token-generating planeswalkers bought me some time but he was too fast.
Game three was actually pretty close. I stalled for a while with satyr and beast tokens until he found a Spreading seas which gave his stuff islandwalk. He killed Garruk and brought me down to 7 live leaving me basically with a xenagos and a bunch of small creatures unable to block. The next turn I could generate exactly 8 mana, played Craterhoof and hit him for way over 20.
I boarded in 3 Bonfires and the Silent Arbiter, but never saw any of them. I was pleasantly surprised to see we can race Merfolk.
Match 3:
2-1 against Affinity
Game one my opponent underestimated my planeswalkers, always going face instead of killing them. I chumped his Master of Aetherium with plant tokens while taking heavy hits in the air, especially after he found a steel overseer. He got me down to 3 life when I got to 8 mana and played Pact. He was at 29 life due to two pumped up Vault Skirge and said something like: “Now I want to see how you are doing that much damage in one turn.” I got Craterhoof and attacked for like 40 or 50. His face was priceless.
Game two he attacked with an Ornithopter with two platings on turn 3. I didn’t stand a chance.
Game three he had a fast start and got plenty fliers with double Steel Overseer backup. He killed every single planeswalker this time and I struggled pretty hard do get my mana going. Somehow I got to 7 mana while being on 5 life with basically no board. I played Pact. He didn’t say anything this time but I could see him wondering which green creature on earth should be able to win this for me. I got Hornet Queen with him having exactly 5 flyers (5/5 at that point gaining +2/+2 every turn) and a Cranial Plating while beeing way beyond 30 life. She stalled the game for 3 whole rounds until he found an Etched Champion. Apparently one turn too late. I combo-killed him the next turn with infinite satyrs. He was super salty and I must admit I got pretty lucky there, but it was so much fun to win this one. He just never seemed to take my deck serious the whole time. Im so glad I could proof him wrong.
I boarded in 3 Bonfire, Reclamation Sage and the Creeping Corrosion. Never saw any of them. Took out mainly combo pieces and Karn.
Match 4
2-1 against Tron
Game one I had an absolute dream start! I had an Oath of Nissa, 2 Arbor Elf and 3 Utopia Sprawl starting into round 3 with the ability to generate !14! mana. I played Karn and exiled a Tron piece leaving him with a single forest. He hung in there, but never was able to establish Tron with my Karn out. I won a few turns later by topdecking Kessig Wolf Run.
Game two he was on the play and got to pyroclasm 2 Birds and an Elf, leaving me with basically nothing. He resolved a Karn the next turn and ancient stirringed into an Ulamog so I scooped.
Game three I got a pretty good start with 2 Elfs and a Utopia Sprawl. I nearly got a heart attack when he cycled a Chromatic Star for red mana on turn two. He drew a card from it, paused, thought some more, smiled and played a map, actually a really funny guy. He got a Wurmcoil Engine, that did nothing and a Karn out, which exiled my red source instead of my nykthos. I had at least one walker, a bunch of tokens and Curio out and played Genesis Hydra into another walker, looped some stuff and somehow killed him on the same turn with Craterhoof through his blocking Wurmcoil. This deck can go of in crazy ways!
I boarded in Crumble to Dust, Kiora and Reclamation Sage and took out the Nissas, becuase I wanted to be fast. After game two and the crushing Pyroclasm I decided to board out 2 Birds instead. Never saw any of the sideboard cards.
As for the Deck and possible changes. I was super pleased with the Craterhoof + Hornet Queen + Summoner's Pact package. I think I got pretty lucky, for seeing Pact in nearly every second game I played, which shouldn’t be very likely especially for an instant. Being able to choose between Hornet Queen or Craterhoof depending on the situation is invaluable! Whenever I got one of them the other one wouldn’t have done the trick. I never pacted for a Genesis Hydra, but I can easily imagine myself to get one if I am missing my second planeswalker for the infinite combo and already have a lot of mana.
Only thing I am thinking to change at this point are the Abundant Growth. I really like them in combination with Cloudstone Curio, but not being able to be hit with Oath of Nissa or Kiora, Master of the Depths is a real downside. I might want to play some number of Elvish Visionary instead. They are obviously way more expensive to loop, but can chump block at least. What do you guys think? Any other Suggestions?
All in all I was very pleased with the deck. I think I got a bit lucky in some games, but on the other hand I never saw any sideboard cards also (exept from a Scavenging Ooze I played in my second Suicide Zoo game on turn 2 to chump block on turn 3, losing a turn later). Bonfire of the top would have won me any game against Merfolk or Affinity on the spot, but maybe its just too hard to hit a sorcery with my card draw mainly being Oath, Kiora and Hydra. Im not sure if something like Polukranos can fill the same role, but it would for sure be easier to find.
What a great result!!! Cloudstone Walker lists can be somewhat difficult to play at times; so the fact that you did so well in your first tournament with the deck is crazy good.
To be honest, I've found Chandra, Flamecaller to be crazy good against decks like infect, affinity, merfolk, and even suicide decks (as the four damage still kills Thing in ice and nearly all of the creatures they play). Sure they can save them with an instant; but then they are wasting a spell protecting them It can be hit by Oath, can be hit by Hydra, and can be utilized aggressively or as card advantage when you are already ahead...that, and if you have the infinite combo where Garruk or Xenagos is already generating 10 mana, you can just make infinite 3/1 hasty elementals or draw our your deck
Chandra has been invaluable in my current meta; but it is heavy with aggro dlinear creature based decks (and dredge). I've been surprised how much the combo of Chandra Flamecaller and Nissa, Vital Force has been. I've had several games vs. dredge where I wipe the board, play Nissa, hit them with a 5/5, recur Chandra with Nissa, wipe the board again and then hit them again with a 5/5, etc.) It takes multiple turns, but it is a great way to keep them from doing anything while you beat down.
I do have to say, however, that Polukranos, World Eater is a great card. And with a large sum of devotion it can be a great "board maintenence" tool. With Cloudstone Curio; you can also bounce him and trigger his monstorous over and over if you want (God I love Curio )
I'm excited to hear more about your play with the deck! I'll post some of mine as well with a focus on sideboarding (as it can be VERY difficult with Walker decks at times).
Looks like a nice result against some decent tier 1 to 1.5 decks! Very nice.
I found that infect and deaths zoo really tend to get blown out by fog, they dump their hand to win and you fog the damage away, it makes you really stand a chance. Those are also the type of decks you really need to board for to make the matchups winnable so 4 sb is not crazy. Like you experienced you do not need to have sideboard cards vs allot of decks and can afford to play less hate for those matches.
You are absolutely right that Fog is absolutely devastating to decks like that; and in most cases they just don't see it coming (as it isn't played a lot in Modern). It is a card many devotion decks should consider in the board.
@CurdBros - I’ve been really impressed by your primer, and how fun this deck looks. I’ve spent the good part of two days thinking of different cards that may work well in this deck type that I haven’t seen mentioned here.
A few pages back, you mention this as one of your conclusions: “We probably can only consistently perform well if we incorporate main-board disruption into our decks.”
From here, you mention Primal Command, Karn Liberated, Polukranos, and Acidic Slime to provide disruption. All these are excellent choices, but I did a search of this forum and I didn’t see mention of Vraska the Unseen. Have you considered, or tried her in a Walker build? While she doesn’t have the raw power of some walkers, she can provide extremely versatile disruption/defense when needed. She doesn’t do much when she’s not needed, but even then she can tick up to destroy your opponent’s next played threat. I play tested her briefly as a four-of vs. Jund and I haven’t been disappointed thus far (although it is way too early to form a conclusion). I do wonder, however, if it would just be better to just go over-the-top and overwhelm my opponent using other means, than to destroy their permanents. Please keep in mind that I have very little experience with this deck!
Another card I’d like to try in some version of this deck with Oath of Nissa, is Mulldrifter. Here are my thoughts on its merits:
1) Easy to cast w/BoP, Fertile Ground, etc.
2) Can be used early game w/Evoke, and cast normally later (5 CMC is easy for this deck) to keep the 2/2 flying body. I love how this can be cast early for 3 mana to build card advantage, while Inquisition of Kozilek can’t touch it.
3) Can be searched for with Oath of Nissa, and cast with Genesis Hydra. Casting a Hydra for a 5/5 body, a 2/2 flyer, and drawing two extra cards is fantastic value.
4) Extra body to use for Garruk's Ultimate.
I’m about to try a deck somewhat similar to your last posted Ramp Walker build, but I’m using Vraska, Elspeth - Sun’s Champion, Garruk, and Nicol Bolas as my planeswalkers, along with Mulldrifter for extra card advantage. With my luck it will probably do poorly, but I enjoy brewing…and what’s more fun than ramping into Nicol Bolas???
I think you can absolutely play Vraska in a build (and may be able to give yourself some great options in black for board cards, etc.). You are right that I do beleive our decks perform best when we have a little disruption available; but being a very green deck that can be tough...that's where cards like planeswalkers with "disruptive" options can be perfect. If we need the disruption; it's available. If we don't, we don't HAVE to use it. Of course our board can also be a great place for more focused disruption; but even then I think the best forms of disruption are the ones that still fit the "feel" or "tempo" of the deck. Much like Nathaniel_5colour was discussing above; you really want disruption that can be (a) tutored with the tutor/tools you play (be it Summoner's Pact, Oath, Genesis Hydra, Chord, etc.) and (b) can be played in a natural curve of your deck. When I've played more "toolbox" and creature-based devotion decks I've certainly felt that they had a much easier time boarding.
Walker decks, however, do have some great options. Karn can answer any permanent we want (including lands), Chandra Flamecaller works as a boardwipe, Gideon Jura slows numerous aggro decks, Elspeth Suns Champion can deal with multiple fatties, Vraska is a cheaper "catch all" (although it can't deal with lands...but that's often worth the 2-less mana), and Nicol Bolas can pretty much deal with anything as well...
I certainly think you can build your own version of a Walker deck. That's the beauty of Oath of Nissa...it makes for a lot of potential options. I saw your list and I can't wait to hear more on how it plays.
P.S. I have tried Tezzeret's Gambit in the past and always seemed to take it out before testing many games. I think I just was too sensitive to the games where I had to cast it with nothing on board to proliferate. I can't say I tested it enough to have any kind of firm grasp on how well it plays. When I did play the list with Gambit in it; I tended to also play Eternal Witness (as she becomes better and better the more instants/sorceries you play) but that may have been one of my problems I do think Gambit also works well with Nissa, Voice of Zendikar (as it puts another +1/+1 counter on everyone as well.)
Consistently going 3-1 or 4-0 at FNMs with this list. Death and Taxes is still the most problematic match-up. The only part of the deck in contention for me is the 3 drop slot. It is a toss-up between Nissa VOZ and Tireless Tracker right now. Both have a place in the deck, with Nissa helping out draws containing a lot of BTEs and mana dorks while tracker helps regain card advantage and draw answers. I still don't know if either is what I am looking for. Considering Kitchen Finks too but I am open to suggestions.
EDIT: I know a lot of people have issues deciding on sideboard. I find that mine is very consistent and works in harmony with the rest of the deck, so feel free to steal it. In general, removing Oaths when you bring in more non-creature spells is a must.
For as much as we've been talking about Walker builds lately; I did want people to also know that more "traditional" or creature-based devotion decks are GREAT and many people have playstyle preferences much more suited to such builds.
Tamel has done a few things I consider to be "good" when discussing traditional devotion:
1. Built-in Card advantage - cards like Primeval Titan, Wolfbriar Elemental, Tireless Tracker, and Courser of Kruphix all have their own forms of built-in card advantage. In devotion every card should pretty much either ramp, create card advantage, or win the game...while Planeswalkers naturally have built-in advantage given the fact that they activate each turn; you can get just as much advantage out of many great green creatures.
Wolfbriar Elemental in particular is a card I fell in love with years ago and gravitate to every single time I build a creature-centric list (and pretty much 100% of lists that I run Summoner's Pact in) . It's a mana sink, while being a decent 4-drop if that is all you have. Works well with both Garruk's overrun and Craterhoof.
2. Fast Tutor, Great Curve, and Mana Sinks (a.k.a. "Smooth") - traditional devotion decks (especially those not playing Primal Command) don't play much disruption main. Given this, they need to be quite fast and quite consistent (as you want to enact your game plan before the opponent completes theirs). Summoner's Pact accomplishes this in allowing for you to Pact for BTE when the turn calls for it (to literally speed yourself up by a turn in some cases), to Pact for your win-con once you've hit your mana, and/or to bridge the gap to get to the mana for your win con. It only gets better post board when you can tutor for sideboard options. The Genesis Hydra's are similar in this nature (slower, but have the extra boost of the creature and uncounterability factor).
On top of this, the curve is low enough (while having mana sinks for periods without tutors and/or your fatty-win-cons) that many many hands are going to work out.
By having strong/fast tutors, a low but powerful curve, and mana-sinks; nearly every hand can be molded to get you where you want to go. This is a little different from Walker Builds in the sense that you play a little less ramp and a little more "bridge/support" cards; but the idea is still the same.
3. "Global" Sideboard Options - While Melira is specific (and you are going to have cards that are); a majority of the cards in the board are somewhat "global" in nature. Beast Within can handle any problem permanent (including lands). Sudden Shock deals with any and all small creatures (and the opponent can do very little to stop it). Scavenging Ooze deals with all graveyard-based decks. Spellskite has a million uses. Choke deals with multiple different versions of "blue" decks.
The point is that the majority of cards aren't so specific that they are always dead unless you play X. This tends to work best for devotion as we don't tend to board super heavy in any match up. The tempo of our decks is important; so we can't change the deck too fundamentally in any game 2 or 3. Having answers that get rid of the "bad cards" in any given match up but that can also be played against multiple different decks makes for a level of "ease" that you will always have something you can bring in.
CurdBros, thanks for posting your input as well as your experience with Tezzeret's Gambit. I didn’t even consider proliferating with Nissa, VoZ’s +1/+1 counters. That’s why I love this thread: so much good advice from friendly posters that humor my crazy ideas
You were so right about Chandra, Flamecaller! She does amazing things for this type of deck. Vraska the Unseen also continues to save my bacon on a regular basis, killing my opponent’s biggest threats (especially flyers). Left unchecked, she often kills a second permanent. If I can produce five mana and my opponent isn’t going wide, I’m very happy to draw her. Chandra obviously fills the gap for when my opponent does go wide.
I have changed my Walker devotion deck up since I last posted it last. Basically, it is very similar to your (CurdBros) deck, but with some differences.
One major area of deviation from canon is that I replaced my Garruk Wildspeaker with 4 Wall of Roots. I felt that with as few attacking creatures as my deck has, I couldn’t take full advantage of Garruk’s ultimate. I also felt that his ramp ability came online at an awkward time (when we should be casting threats or stabilizing the board). Wall of Roots not only helps ramp my mana earlier, but it also slows down fast aggro, and protects my Walkers from attackers with power up to 4. While not as explosive as Garruk, it helps me to consistently produce 5-7 mana on turn 3. I have five 5 CMC walkers, four 6 CMC walkers, and three 7 CMC walkers. Because of this, I feel that my mana ramp is well-matched to my mana requirements.
As far as my results with this deck go so far (all games were without a sideboard):
1 - 0 vs UW Control (no time for second game)
2 - 1 vs Suicide Bloo
2 - 0 vs BG Death Cloud
1 - 2 vs another Suicide Bloo deck
Although Wall of Roots helps, fast aggro continues to be somewhat problematic. Am I crazy to consider Arborback Stomper in place of Nissa, Vital Force ? Is Thragtusk or Primal Command just plain better for board stabilization in this deck? If I don’t have many creatures, then I’m not sure Primal Command would be as good. Thragtusk is pretty awesome, but he provides one less devotion, and I think the trample and 4 toughness on Arborback might be relevant.
I next plan on testing vs Jund and Mono-U Tron. I can post my full deck in the meantime, if anyone is interested.
@Lamps R Kewl: Strangleroot Geists are doing very well, they are persistent devotion and can start off a beatdown plan vs control. I like them against other planeswalkers. Playable T2 without a T1 ramp spell, or when you have 3 mana T2 I quite often can go Geist+Oath (or Arbor Elf/Utopia).
Not a big fan of Arborback Stomper, I do think Thragtusk, Primal and Kitchen finks are strictly better.
@Tamel_Eidek: You mention the 'If I only had one more turn' problem, that's where I think Primal Command shines. It can give you that 1 more turn. It's a non-permament card but sets up further devotion and works very well in conjunction with the 1 ofs we play without relying on Chord of Calling/Summoner's Pact.
Recently won vs bogles with Primal Command where I bounced their enchantments over and over again. It's the green cryptic and makes a usually very non-interactive deck more interactive. And you might think Primal Command is only for the Command+Witness lock, but that's not the case. Yesterday I gave myself 7 life and searched out and played Geist ("only" had 7 mana), which allowed me to take out his Chandra torch of defiance which would have killed me the next turn. Knight of the Reliquary: I have played it in the Woodland Bellower list, in my testing he was underwhelming. I played it for the exact reasons you mentioned. When you get to activate him he can be decent, somehow he never worked out for me, he doesn't ramp and my only good targets where kessig, nykthos and ghost quarter. Doesn't do anything the turn it enters and only adds 1 devotion.
@Forestsguy: Kiora: Usually it's just 1 Breeding Pool with 6-8 fetches plus the Oath which lets you cast her. I don't know what you mean by "go to stock build", Lunik_ has popularized her with his Genesis Wave build. She is in that 4 CMC spot can ramp or find you action. (Oath look at the top 3, Kiora reveal top 4: these are blue effects in a green deck. I just love it)
Nylea's Disciple sees some play in Sideboards, it requires an already built up devotion to be really impactful, overall I would always max out on Kitchen Finks before playing Nylea's Disciple.
@Nathaniel_5colour: Congratulations on your results! A nice write up, pleasure to read.
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I apologize Forestguy...I totally blanked your asking for a kiora list.
I played a kiora list a while back for quite some time that I loved and I will make sure to post it upon my return.
I can't say it was a "stock list" (it probably hasn't seen enough public success (MTGO, etc.) for there to be a stock list yet. Lunik's list is also very similar. Lord Darkview even made the comment that it probably meant something that Lunik arrived at a similar list completely independently of mine...so while there may not necessarily be a "stock" list; the fact that we arrived at a very similar point with Kiora before ever seeing each others lists/findings at minimum makes me feel like it is the right direction for a blue-based Kiora deck.
Lunik did extremely well with the deck and expanded the information, sideboarding, etc. and is a great player (from what I've gathered from his/her discussions throughout salvations) so his posts alone would be a great starting point. I'll post both, however, as if we both found many of the same interactions/cards to be strong; it is at minimum a good starting point.
I'll post both lists in the same post when I get back to the office today. I'll try to also point out what was printed/released since that time just in case new tools are available. I'm sorry it took a couple days. JaccJacc is right though; that you can't go wrong looking up Lunik'S posts (as I think he even discusses a few of his match ups and findings).
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A few pages back, you mention this as one of your conclusions: “We probably can only consistently perform well if we incorporate main-board disruption into our decks.”
From here, you mention Primal Command, Karn Liberated, Polukranos, and Acidic Slime to provide disruption. All these are excellent choices, but I did a search of this forum and I didn’t see mention of Vraska the Unseen. Have you considered, or tried her in a Walker build? While she doesn’t have the raw power of some walkers, she can provide extremely versatile disruption/defense when needed. She doesn’t do much when she’s not needed, but even then she can tick up to destroy your opponent’s next played threat. I play tested her briefly as a four-of vs. Jund and I haven’t been disappointed thus far (although it is way too early to form a conclusion). I do wonder, however, if it would just be better to just go over-the-top and overwhelm my opponent using other means, than to destroy their permanents. Please keep in mind that I have very little experience with this deck!
Another card I’d like to try in some version of this deck with Oath of Nissa, is Mulldrifter. Here are my thoughts on its merits:
1) Easy to cast w/BoP, Fertile Ground, etc.
2) Can be used early game w/Evoke, and cast normally later (5 CMC is easy for this deck) to keep the 2/2 flying body. I love how this can be cast early for 3 mana to build card advantage, while Inquisition of Kozilek can’t touch it.
3) Can be searched for with Oath of Nissa, and cast with Genesis Hydra. Casting a Hydra for a 5/5 body, a 2/2 flyer, and drawing two extra cards is fantastic value.
4) Extra body to use for Garruk's Ultimate.
I’m about to try a deck somewhat similar to your last posted Ramp Walker build, but I’m using Vraska, Elspeth - Sun’s Champion, Garruk, and Nicol Bolas as my planeswalkers, along with Mulldrifter for extra card advantage. With my luck it will probably do poorly, but I enjoy brewing…and what’s more fun than ramping into Nicol Bolas???
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/494267#online
@curdbros: Fertile Ground: I have been on and off playing, here are my experiences;
Great T2 play after T1 Arbor Elf/Bop gets removed
Synergy with all the available untap effect
Supreme Mana fixing
Ramp which is safe from removal
Can not be hit by oath
On the slow side/low impact
dead card lategame
It makes a lot of sense in your Planeswalker build, the card is best suited if you go for a more midrange/grindy playstyle, in Decks primarily focused on speed it loses it's viability imho.
@Rulleboren: A blue Splash for Kiora & Negates is worth it (Lunik has explained the strengths of them very well).
What I noticed is that the opponent does not suspect you to play counters. So keep up 1U and act all frustrated because you have no plays. Then when they cascade into Living End, or try to cast Ugin, Karn or any other big noncreature game changer, you get to go: nope!
Protecting your genesis wave against counters is just as good.
@Lamps: What a cool idea. You have pointed out Mulldrifters strength very well (the flying is very relevant), however we have to keep in mind that it does not add any devotion, contesting with the 3 drop slot = aka what do you take out to make room for it?(Kitchen Finks, Courser of Kruphix, etc).
But he should definitely shine in grindier matchups.
@Flaat: It really comes down to Noble Hierarch vs Birds of Paradise. Birds can make R and is flying (keep in mind Inkmoth Nexus). The Exalted is not that relevant in devotion decks because mostly you will alpha strike with the whole team.
After getting in a couple of games, i switched from 2x Fertile Ground, 2x Voyaging Satyr to 4x Strangleroot Geist.
Nissa: Great for the beatdown plan, soaks up a lot of damage, Emblem is good, good enough for the opponent to target her.
I have gotten very low on ramp (no BoP) because T1 ramp is not as crucial in here, having 4 mana on T3 or 5 mana on T4 is what it's all about, and Oath does overtime setting that up.
4x Arbor Elf
4x Strangleroot Geist
3x Courser of Kruphix
3x Eternal Witness
2x Primeval Titan
1x Acidic Slime
1x Polukranos, World Eater
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Hornet Queen
1x Genesis Hydra
Sorcery (4)
4x Primal Command
Planeswalker (7)
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Kiora, Master of the Depths
2x Nissa, Vital Force
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept Heath
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Stomping Ground
1x Breeding Pool
1x Ghost Quarter
6x Forest
Enchantment (8)
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Negate
4x Fog
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Terastodon
1x Cloudthresher
2x Obstinate Baloth
2x Fracturing Gust
Nice deck, jaccjacc! I agree with your reduction of Voyaging Satyr and Fertile Ground in your build. How are the Strangleroots treating you?
@SJTBR - Thanks for the kind words! Green devotion decks are a brewer's dream
As far as the Mulldrifters go, I took out 2x Courser of Kruphix and 2x Voyaging Satyr from my deck to make room for them. I felt that the Coursers were too low-impact, and the Satyrs were terrible top deck draws. I wanted something that would help me get to my bigger answers, and the Mulldrifters have been doing well so far. They are good draws early and late game, but I can see how my deck could suffer vs. fast aggro. Being that I have a Walker build, I think Gideon Jura and Chandra, Flamecaller would help vs those types of decks. Plussing up Vraska may help against small creatures/tokens. I'm also waiting on Nissa VF to arrive in the mail, based on what I read in this thread. Her +1 can provide good defense. What card(s) do you all feel would help the most vs fast aggro in a Walker build?
Other musings - I'm thinking of trying Tezzeret's Gambit and/or Oath of Gideon to bolster my Walkers' loyalty, while providing other value. I think both would be good with Garruk Wildspeaker, Nissa, Vital Force, and Vraska the Unseen. All of these Walkers have ultimates that can be reached quickly. Vraska's -3 ability (the main reason to use her) can also be used twice in a row, if ignored. The tokens from Oath of Gideon, can also make great use of Garruk's ultimate.
Final musing - Has anyone tried Slithermuse in an aggressive devotion build? I think one of the biggest problems these types of decks can run into is emptying your hand to build a lot of mana, but running out of gas quickly. Like Mulldrifter, I think Slithermuse can help rebuild your hand, while maintaining the ability to be fetched using Oath of Nissa.
4x Arbor Elf
2x Birds of Paradise
2x Thragtusk
3x Slithermuse
4x Genesis Hydra
Enchantments (12)
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Weirding Wood
Planeswalkers (12)
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Nissa, Vital Force
3x Vraska the Unseen
2x Gideon Jura
2x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Breeding Pool
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
7x Forest
As you can see from my ten 5 CMC spells, getting to five mana is the sweet spot for this deck, with several ramp combinations to help make that happen.
Vraska and Gideon serve as both disruption and point defense, with Vraska working much like an assassin: She can kill anything, but she is vulnerable after she strikes. Besides killing creatures, Gideon also works well to take the pressure off my other walkers.
Gideon (also), Nissa, and Thragtusk are mainly for general defense while I build up for an alpha strike, but can easily take an offensive role when the opportunity presents itself. Thragtusk will hopefully help me recover against early assaults. I only recently realized that Nissa’s +1 can work well with Arbor Elf’s land untap ability.
Nicol Bolas and Genesis Hydra are my haymakers…self explanatory.
Regarding my “weird” choices of Weirding Wood and Slithermuse: I chose Weirding Wood over Fertile Ground for three reasons:
1) With six CMC 1 ramp spells, turn two Weirding Woods should be fairly easy to the point that the one extra CMC over Fertile Ground shouldn’t matter much. I may add another BoP to help cast it more consistently on turn 2, however.
2) The Investigate token will mitigate the otherwise bad late-game topdeck problem that Fertile Ground suffers from. It also “caches” an extra draw off of an evoked Slithermuse.
3) The double mana of any color can help to hard-cast Gideon or Bolas, should I have no Oath of Nissa in play. It can also be used to cast Slithermuse for UU to keep it in play as a 3/3 creature, assuming I don’t want to use the Evoke ability to get the cards at that point in the game.
As far as Slithermuse goes, I suspect it will help strengthen the weakest aspect of a ramp deck: when you only draw land and ramp spells. At the very least, it is a 3/3 creature or a cantrip. At that point though, my opponent probably has no cards in hand, so it will probably only be bad when my opponent is in a bad position. On the other hand, it has the potential to completely swing a game around. If it is the only card in my hand, and my opponent has at least two cards in his/her hand (that he can’t/won’t want to cast in response), it is still a “draw three (or more)” that can be fetched with Oath of Nissa.
As soon as I get a chance to test this prototype monster of a deck, I’ll let you all know how it goes. I’m keeping my expectations low, though.
Edit: Realized how bad this deck would do against decks with any speed, whatsoever. I need to make it more resilient to burn, aggro, etc.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Totally agree. Eidolon of Blossoms is a card we all have had a love affair with since the day it was spoiled. It just seemed SO good (drawing a card when you play cards you want to play anyways like Utopia Sprawl...and only got better with Oath...
My testing never got there. It just seemed like those turns where I played a turn 2 or 3 Eidolon just to see it bolted/removed were devastating. The fact that it replaces itself, however, is huge. I never really tried it with Cloudstone Curio (only because you can only play so many "engine" cards) but that was my initial inclination.
I do have to say that the deck that placed looks quite strong. I certainly am going to test it if the Walker Deck hits a meta that doesn't "feel" good for it. It does, however, give me A TON of enthusiasm and interest that Eidolon may actually work as an engine for Devotion.
You are absolutely right that 5-CMC is a sweet spot for a large portion of devotion decks. That's part of what makes Primal Command so great in so many builds. Good point.
I'm interested to hear how the deck performs! I haven't got to play a lot with some of the Walkers your playing; but I could certainly see times where Vraska and Gideon in particular could be great (especially Gideon).
(posting more soon)
I am on MTGO just literally playing a "Solitaire" game and Genesis Hydra worked!!!!
I'm going to send them a BIG "Thank You" (as I literally wrote them last week and they did take the time to point out that they truly were working on it and did take our requests seriously.). For as much as I (and I'm sure others) bothered them, we owe it to them to thank them and make sure we post that they were responsive to us.
I ran the numbers on this a while back. What I figured out is that 3-mana turn 2s are really common, but it infrequent to have a 4+ mana turn 2. On turn 3, any amount of mana was possible but 5+ was pretty common. For this reason, I had no hesitation about using Command.
Even if you only have the five mana to cast Command, it can immediately push you out of burn range, ruin graveyard strategies, or just tutor up a Titan while it pushes back your opponent's mana development. Usually, some mix of these is better than a 4/4 + 2/2.
Don't get me wrong. I play 4 Garruk and 2 Wolfbriar. I like the 4-mana spot. But Command is just so powerful and outright wins so often that I think it's a mistake not to play 3-4 in any deck that reasonably supports it.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Shouldn't we run more Nylea's Disciple?
The Plow Under option almost always guarantees enough turns to build devotion for something good. If you get Primal Command, you get a soft lock going after the initial Plow Under. Gaea's Revenge (after Sideboarding) and Ruric Thar are spectacular bombs 3 turns after a Plow Under. Will playtest heavily next 2 weeks to find a viable Devotion alternative to RG Land D that includes the Deus of Calamity. I want to maindeck one Wrecking Ogre for good measure to guarantee an alpha strike with the Deus.
Can anyone post a guide for sideboarding against the meta? Against multicolor, the land disruption often screws other decks enough for me to pull off a win. Silent Arbiter helps stop symmetric aggro decks.
4x Arbor Elf
2x Llanowar Elves
2x Deus of Calamity
1x Courser of Kruphix
3x Eternal Witness
3x Wistful Selkie
4x Burning Tree Emissary
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
Sorceries (9)
3x Plow Under
3x Primal Command
3x Genesis Wave
4x Utopia Sprawl
2x Overgrowth
Planeswalkers (4)
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Kiora Master of the Depths
Lands (20)
1x Stomping Ground
1x Kessig Wolf Run
3x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
15x Forest
2x Beast Within
1x Crumble to Dust
1x Creeping Corrosion
2x Gaea's Revenge
1x Silent Arbiter
2x Nature's Claim
3x Negate
3x Fog
Can you guys playtest with a maindeck wrecking ogre too for alpha striking with one creature, this can be pumped with the devotion float off kessig wolf run too.
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Arbor Elf
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Eternal Witness
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Temur Sabertooth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
Enchantments (7)
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Abundant Growth
2 Blood Moon
2 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
Instants (3)
3 Summoner's Pact
Sorceries (1)
1 Primal Command
Land (20)
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Stomping Ground
6 Forest
2 Blood Moon
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Sudden Shock
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Primal Command
I'm off Genesis Hydra for now for the first time in years - trying a playset of Visionaries in place of them for synergy with naked BTEs, Coursers where there's a pact on top I want to draw or another chance at hitting land that turn, and a body to receive buffs. Blood Moon is simply the best disruption in the format. Sure, we go wild with Nykthos and Kessig Wolf Run are part of our toolkit, but turn 2 Blood Moon also gives us another "unfair" angle to attack from, and many decks are soft to the card currently, same as ever. 2 in the maindeck gives us a chance to K.O. someone or lock them out if we don't explode onto the board, and diversifies our threats against controlling decks. Blue Moon can still be difficult, but I'm willing to give up points there to gain large points against the rest of the field. Temur Sabertooth has been good, but I wonder if it's just better as a Verduous Gearhulk or Acidic Slime. The Sabertooth is an excellent long-game plan as I've used it in the past, and has won me several games on the back of making a ton of the opponents draws dead. Hulk is similar in its effect on the game but is much more aggressive. I'll have to continue to test this. Cloudthresher is another card I'm considering in that slot.
Even with Blood Moon in play, we're still an impressive ramp deck and the deck's constructed to be able to play with one in play. A Garruk and one Utopia Sprawl with 4 lands in play still can equal a 4th turn Craterhoof Behemoth - we don't NEED to be crazy explosive, but the deck's core is still there and can goldfish plenty of turn 3 kills thanks to the consistency of the mana. Also missing are the Oath of Nissa I'd previously been playing. I'm valuing the consistency of a single card draw from the traditional cantrips over Oath because of how the sideboard is constructed, although it's possible the Abundant Growth is better served as a singleton Oath. Right now I'm very happy with where the deck is at, and as a 3-year devotion player, I encourage you all to give some of my technology a try.
What a great result!!! Cloudstone Walker lists can be somewhat difficult to play at times; so the fact that you did so well in your first tournament with the deck is crazy good.
To be honest, I've found Chandra, Flamecaller to be crazy good against decks like infect, affinity, merfolk, and even suicide decks (as the four damage still kills Thing in ice and nearly all of the creatures they play). Sure they can save them with an instant; but then they are wasting a spell protecting them It can be hit by Oath, can be hit by Hydra, and can be utilized aggressively or as card advantage when you are already ahead...that, and if you have the infinite combo where Garruk or Xenagos is already generating 10 mana, you can just make infinite 3/1 hasty elementals or draw our your deck
Chandra has been invaluable in my current meta; but it is heavy with aggro dlinear creature based decks (and dredge). I've been surprised how much the combo of Chandra Flamecaller and Nissa, Vital Force has been. I've had several games vs. dredge where I wipe the board, play Nissa, hit them with a 5/5, recur Chandra with Nissa, wipe the board again and then hit them again with a 5/5, etc.) It takes multiple turns, but it is a great way to keep them from doing anything while you beat down.
I do have to say, however, that Polukranos, World Eater is a great card. And with a large sum of devotion it can be a great "board maintenence" tool. With Cloudstone Curio; you can also bounce him and trigger his monstorous over and over if you want (God I love Curio )
I'm excited to hear more about your play with the deck! I'll post some of mine as well with a focus on sideboarding (as it can be VERY difficult with Walker decks at times).
You are absolutely right that Fog is absolutely devastating to decks like that; and in most cases they just don't see it coming (as it isn't played a lot in Modern). It is a card many devotion decks should consider in the board.
I think you can absolutely play Vraska in a build (and may be able to give yourself some great options in black for board cards, etc.). You are right that I do beleive our decks perform best when we have a little disruption available; but being a very green deck that can be tough...that's where cards like planeswalkers with "disruptive" options can be perfect. If we need the disruption; it's available. If we don't, we don't HAVE to use it. Of course our board can also be a great place for more focused disruption; but even then I think the best forms of disruption are the ones that still fit the "feel" or "tempo" of the deck. Much like Nathaniel_5colour was discussing above; you really want disruption that can be (a) tutored with the tutor/tools you play (be it Summoner's Pact, Oath, Genesis Hydra, Chord, etc.) and (b) can be played in a natural curve of your deck. When I've played more "toolbox" and creature-based devotion decks I've certainly felt that they had a much easier time boarding.
Walker decks, however, do have some great options. Karn can answer any permanent we want (including lands), Chandra Flamecaller works as a boardwipe, Gideon Jura slows numerous aggro decks, Elspeth Suns Champion can deal with multiple fatties, Vraska is a cheaper "catch all" (although it can't deal with lands...but that's often worth the 2-less mana), and Nicol Bolas can pretty much deal with anything as well...
I certainly think you can build your own version of a Walker deck. That's the beauty of Oath of Nissa...it makes for a lot of potential options. I saw your list and I can't wait to hear more on how it plays.
P.S. I have tried Tezzeret's Gambit in the past and always seemed to take it out before testing many games. I think I just was too sensitive to the games where I had to cast it with nothing on board to proliferate. I can't say I tested it enough to have any kind of firm grasp on how well it plays. When I did play the list with Gambit in it; I tended to also play Eternal Witness (as she becomes better and better the more instants/sorceries you play) but that may have been one of my problems I do think Gambit also works well with Nissa, Voice of Zendikar (as it puts another +1/+1 counter on everyone as well.)
For as much as we've been talking about Walker builds lately; I did want people to also know that more "traditional" or creature-based devotion decks are GREAT and many people have playstyle preferences much more suited to such builds.
Tamel has done a few things I consider to be "good" when discussing traditional devotion:
1. Built-in Card advantage - cards like Primeval Titan, Wolfbriar Elemental, Tireless Tracker, and Courser of Kruphix all have their own forms of built-in card advantage. In devotion every card should pretty much either ramp, create card advantage, or win the game...while Planeswalkers naturally have built-in advantage given the fact that they activate each turn; you can get just as much advantage out of many great green creatures.
Wolfbriar Elemental in particular is a card I fell in love with years ago and gravitate to every single time I build a creature-centric list (and pretty much 100% of lists that I run Summoner's Pact in) . It's a mana sink, while being a decent 4-drop if that is all you have. Works well with both Garruk's overrun and Craterhoof.
2. Fast Tutor, Great Curve, and Mana Sinks (a.k.a. "Smooth") - traditional devotion decks (especially those not playing Primal Command) don't play much disruption main. Given this, they need to be quite fast and quite consistent (as you want to enact your game plan before the opponent completes theirs). Summoner's Pact accomplishes this in allowing for you to Pact for BTE when the turn calls for it (to literally speed yourself up by a turn in some cases), to Pact for your win-con once you've hit your mana, and/or to bridge the gap to get to the mana for your win con. It only gets better post board when you can tutor for sideboard options. The Genesis Hydra's are similar in this nature (slower, but have the extra boost of the creature and uncounterability factor).
On top of this, the curve is low enough (while having mana sinks for periods without tutors and/or your fatty-win-cons) that many many hands are going to work out.
By having strong/fast tutors, a low but powerful curve, and mana-sinks; nearly every hand can be molded to get you where you want to go. This is a little different from Walker Builds in the sense that you play a little less ramp and a little more "bridge/support" cards; but the idea is still the same.
3. "Global" Sideboard Options - While Melira is specific (and you are going to have cards that are); a majority of the cards in the board are somewhat "global" in nature. Beast Within can handle any problem permanent (including lands). Sudden Shock deals with any and all small creatures (and the opponent can do very little to stop it). Scavenging Ooze deals with all graveyard-based decks. Spellskite has a million uses. Choke deals with multiple different versions of "blue" decks.
The point is that the majority of cards aren't so specific that they are always dead unless you play X. This tends to work best for devotion as we don't tend to board super heavy in any match up. The tempo of our decks is important; so we can't change the deck too fundamentally in any game 2 or 3. Having answers that get rid of the "bad cards" in any given match up but that can also be played against multiple different decks makes for a level of "ease" that you will always have something you can bring in.
You were so right about Chandra, Flamecaller! She does amazing things for this type of deck. Vraska the Unseen also continues to save my bacon on a regular basis, killing my opponent’s biggest threats (especially flyers). Left unchecked, she often kills a second permanent. If I can produce five mana and my opponent isn’t going wide, I’m very happy to draw her. Chandra obviously fills the gap for when my opponent does go wide.
I have changed my Walker devotion deck up since I last posted it last. Basically, it is very similar to your (CurdBros) deck, but with some differences.
My walker package consists of 3 Karn Liberated, 4 Chandra, Flamecaller, 3 Vraska the Unseen, and 2 Nissa, Vital Force . I also use 3 Genesis Hydra and 4 Burning-Tree Emissary.
One major area of deviation from canon is that I replaced my Garruk Wildspeaker with 4 Wall of Roots. I felt that with as few attacking creatures as my deck has, I couldn’t take full advantage of Garruk’s ultimate. I also felt that his ramp ability came online at an awkward time (when we should be casting threats or stabilizing the board). Wall of Roots not only helps ramp my mana earlier, but it also slows down fast aggro, and protects my Walkers from attackers with power up to 4. While not as explosive as Garruk, it helps me to consistently produce 5-7 mana on turn 3. I have five 5 CMC walkers, four 6 CMC walkers, and three 7 CMC walkers. Because of this, I feel that my mana ramp is well-matched to my mana requirements.
As far as my results with this deck go so far (all games were without a sideboard):
1 - 0 vs UW Control (no time for second game)
2 - 1 vs Suicide Bloo
2 - 0 vs BG Death Cloud
1 - 2 vs another Suicide Bloo deck
Although Wall of Roots helps, fast aggro continues to be somewhat problematic. Am I crazy to consider Arborback Stomper in place of Nissa, Vital Force ? Is Thragtusk or Primal Command just plain better for board stabilization in this deck? If I don’t have many creatures, then I’m not sure Primal Command would be as good. Thragtusk is pretty awesome, but he provides one less devotion, and I think the trample and 4 toughness on Arborback might be relevant.
I next plan on testing vs Jund and Mono-U Tron. I can post my full deck in the meantime, if anyone is interested.
Not a big fan of Arborback Stomper, I do think Thragtusk, Primal and Kitchen finks are strictly better.
@Tamel_Eidek: You mention the 'If I only had one more turn' problem, that's where I think Primal Command shines. It can give you that 1 more turn. It's a non-permament card but sets up further devotion and works very well in conjunction with the 1 ofs we play without relying on Chord of Calling/Summoner's Pact.
Recently won vs bogles with Primal Command where I bounced their enchantments over and over again. It's the green cryptic and makes a usually very non-interactive deck more interactive. And you might think Primal Command is only for the Command+Witness lock, but that's not the case. Yesterday I gave myself 7 life and searched out and played Geist ("only" had 7 mana), which allowed me to take out his Chandra torch of defiance which would have killed me the next turn.
Knight of the Reliquary: I have played it in the Woodland Bellower list, in my testing he was underwhelming. I played it for the exact reasons you mentioned. When you get to activate him he can be decent, somehow he never worked out for me, he doesn't ramp and my only good targets where kessig, nykthos and ghost quarter. Doesn't do anything the turn it enters and only adds 1 devotion.
@Forestsguy: Kiora: Usually it's just 1 Breeding Pool with 6-8 fetches plus the Oath which lets you cast her. I don't know what you mean by "go to stock build", Lunik_ has popularized her with his Genesis Wave build. She is in that 4 CMC spot can ramp or find you action. (Oath look at the top 3, Kiora reveal top 4: these are blue effects in a green deck. I just love it)
Nylea's Disciple sees some play in Sideboards, it requires an already built up devotion to be really impactful, overall I would always max out on Kitchen Finks before playing Nylea's Disciple.
@Nathaniel_5colour: Congratulations on your results! A nice write up, pleasure to read.
I played a kiora list a while back for quite some time that I loved and I will make sure to post it upon my return.
I can't say it was a "stock list" (it probably hasn't seen enough public success (MTGO, etc.) for there to be a stock list yet. Lunik's list is also very similar. Lord Darkview even made the comment that it probably meant something that Lunik arrived at a similar list completely independently of mine...so while there may not necessarily be a "stock" list; the fact that we arrived at a very similar point with Kiora before ever seeing each others lists/findings at minimum makes me feel like it is the right direction for a blue-based Kiora deck.
Lunik did extremely well with the deck and expanded the information, sideboarding, etc. and is a great player (from what I've gathered from his/her discussions throughout salvations) so his posts alone would be a great starting point. I'll post both, however, as if we both found many of the same interactions/cards to be strong; it is at minimum a good starting point.
I'll post both lists in the same post when I get back to the office today. I'll try to also point out what was printed/released since that time just in case new tools are available. I'm sorry it took a couple days. JaccJacc is right though; that you can't go wrong looking up Lunik'S posts (as I think he even discusses a few of his match ups and findings).