One benefit of being a green devotion player...when you go to your local shop and notice the Wheel of Sun cards you've picked up for nothing for the last two years (ended up with 7 cu you were never certain you had a play set...) are now $17 each! Haha. Modern prices are a funny thing...
I have WAY more to post when I get back (work with Wolfbriar, Nahiri, etc) but I've spent the majority of the last few days tweaking a "Kiora" version if Walker Combo. It all started with my wish to play Wargate to get rid of the clunky draws, multiple and/or turn one copies of Curio, and to increase the consistent speed of Walker Combo...I won't go to far into it without spoiler tags (so I do t take up too much room); but here's the list:
I'll post the current sideboard tonight (although the best part is the 1-of Doubling Season...)after this next round of testing/games. I may end up changing the numbers of things (like change a 3-of to a full set. Etc.) to get the deck as smooth as possible; but the core of the deck and the lines have played pretty much the way I like Walker Combo to play (drawing card after card and quickly overwhtge opponent until you "go infinite". Not a big departure from the way other Walker Combo builds other than the fact that I've won several games just hard-casting Emrakul:)
***ill post the other stuff (sideboarding, etc) when I get back **
Still waiting for your writeup.
I was convinced with RG Ponza (land destroy), however today I felt that this deck was lacking a lot. This was my first time I went 0-4(0-8) in any modern event I played from the start of the format. Deck looks good, however it cant win fast enought and people will just draw out of the screw.
I am currently interested in both Tooth and Nail and Planeswalker devotion versions. Looking forward for your writeup CurdBros - I loved playing Wargate in eggs, and with the amount of mana we can produce it is great card - a way for tutoring any hate/wincon we have. I am however curious how the hell you ended up with wistful selkie, woodland bellower and eternal witness as well as emrakul in the same deck. We used eternal witness almast always only with command/trap and emrakul with tooth and nail/nahiri. I need to wait a bit...
Not to mention Doubling Seasons - I dont see any way why it should work here (especially without Nahiri).
Did you try to play Tooth and Nail/Planeswalker version of the deck? Similar that we had planeswalkers package/command package/pact package? They share similarities especially now with nahiri.
Wargate is briliant inclusion. With this it is possible to play 4 Wargates that makes "virtual" 5-8 Karns, 5-8 Nahiris, 5-8 Garruks, 5-8 Kioras as well as 5-8 Ral Zareks. Notice that both Garruk, Kiora and Ral Zarek can be used for acceleration, Nahiri/Kiora CA/filtering, Karn/Garruk/Nahiri board control.
I'll try to get the testing results posted this evening.
My father has had some issues with his health since being diagnosed with lung cancer. The treatment went well however they greatly reduced his immune system; so we've been in and out of the hospital for the last couple weeks with him catching pneumonia and other viruses/colds. He is being released today; so I will have time to get a few more rounds in and add them to it. On the bright side...he said today that he feels better now than he can ever even remember
The Doubling Season was kind of a "fun of" in the board....it's won a couple games with an ult-Ed Kiora; but probably not worth the slot. Certainly not necessary to the success of the deck. It is something, however, I'm keeping on the "potential" list just given the decks use of Wargate abs Walkers.
Use of Emrakul
Emrakul is just a quick way to end the game once you have infinite mana. I have found; however, that he's also quite hard-cast-able as well though (I've won more games just casting him than I ever thought I would). With infinite mana; you can either draw out the deck with an enchantment loop, creature loop, or Kiora's -2....you can also Wargate for him. After you've attached with him; you can cast any creature, bounce him, and re-cast him...this way you get "infinite" turns as well. Having said this; you don't have to play Emrakul. With the Walker combo you already can draw out the deck and make infinite 3/3 beasts...I just like to be sure I've won on the turn I put the combo together...there are tons of other ways to do it though:
1. Karn Liberated - probably the best choice...once infinite you can exile their entire board and hand.
2. Amy permanent form of direct damage - Ajani Vengeant, Ral Zarek, inferno Titan, purphoros, any creature or enchantment that "pings" people, etc. preferably you'd want a creature so Kiora could draw it.
3. Any Haste enabler - Sarkhan Vol, Hammer of Purphoros, Temur Ascendancy, etc. you want one that gives everyone haste rather than just a single creature.
The trick is getting one that can be naturally cast for advantage in the deck (I.e. When you don't have the combo). To be honest; Karn is probay the best bet...Emrakul is just such an easy win (and saves time on MTGO )
Use of Eternal Witness
Eternal Witness does some important stuff in this deck. She buys back Wargate (which can be huge in assembling the combo) and can grab anything that Kiora pitches to the yard with her -2 ability. There is also an infinite combo with 2x Garruk, a Witness and a Curio; but that's just a happy extra (not a reason to use her).
Use of Wistful Selkie
The deck only runs quickly when you have (a) a ton of mana and (b) a ton of cards. Card draw is super important to the deck. I've been working on getting at least one Coiling Oracle in the deck; but that's a different topic...Wistful Selkie just accomplishes both. He gets your devotion up extremely quickly while replacing himself. I wanted as many "Nykthos Free" cards as possible (their cost is equal to their devotion) and its one of the best. There is an argument for playing 4x Elvish Visionary before a single Selkie; but the devotion has mattered and so has the. 2/2 body (I've played so many Abzan Company and Kiki-Chord decks that I see Orzhav Pontif way too much!).
Other Choices
Woodland Bellower is just a value play. You get a 6/5 body and either a Selkie or Witness (so 2 bodies, 8 power, an additional card, and 4-5 devotion...all for 6-mana). That, and it's good with Curio. Again, may not be completely necessary; but good for games not going perfectly. Also grabs useful sideboard cards like Reclamation Sage and Melira.
The deck is far from tuned though. I want/hope for input from others on how to tune the deck and/or great options for the deck. Wargate changed quite a bit. It really aided in the consistency and speed of the deck and helped make the board a lot more useful without ever having at side out the combo. It also, however, means that (a) I have a few more slots to play with and (b) the balance of card draw spells becomes a little more important, and (c ) it's gonna take a little more work to tune the main/sideboard to make it work fast/consistent enough to be a truly viable tier 2 deck.
I like the ode of Primal Command. I did worry I may have too many non-permanents/creatures (to be hit by Oath and Kiora); but I would think 1 more wouldn't kill the deck
Tooth and Nail Builds
The Tooth and Nail deck is currently the most "tuned" green ramp deck (I.e. The most MTGI results). I think the deck is one of the best decks you can play on MTGO. It's a great deck. With the right board; I honestly believe the deck is a viable long-term Modern Tier deck. The detractors of the deck claim it is just an "MTGO deck" (saying you can spike a league and go 4-1/5-0 on any given day but over a longer tournament it wouldn't be consistent enough)...this, however, can be said about any combo deck; and UEGJO and others have shown that with the right toolbox of creatures/cards in the main deck and sideboard that the deck can perform well in a consistent basis. The community on here has tuned the deck to a great place. I would advise anyone new to devotion/ramp to play it. While it doesn't fit my preferences for a few reasons; there is no denying that it is a great deck that is posting results. As the meta moves a little more to control (I think Nahiri has officially created a tier Jeskai Control deck) the deck will have to add Summoning Traps and play a tiny bit different; but I think it's gonna be fine in ant meta.
There will always be the argument as to what the "best" win condition is in Green Devotion/ramp; but there is no argument that Tooth and Nail is a viable and successful option.
** be back in 2 hours; and will provide as much info/results as I can...sorry for jumbled nature of this...sent from phone.***
I have WAY more to post when I get back (work with Wolfbriar, Nahiri, etc) but I've spent the majority of the last few days tweaking a "Kiora" version if Walker Combo. It all started with my wish to play Wargate to get rid of the clunky draws, multiple and/or turn one copies of Curio, and to increase the consistent speed of Walker Combo...I won't go to far into it without spoiler tags (so I do t take up too much room); but here's the list:
I'll post the current sideboard tonight (although the best part is the 1-of Doubling Season...)after this next round of testing/games. I may end up changing the numbers of things (like change a 3-of to a full set. Etc.) to get the deck as smooth as possible; but the core of the deck and the lines have played pretty much the way I like Walker Combo to play (drawing card after card and quickly overwhtge opponent until you "go infinite". Not a big departure from the way other Walker Combo builds other than the fact that I've won several games just hard-casting Emrakul:)
***ill post the other stuff (sideboarding, etc) when I get back **
Still waiting for your writeup.
I was convinced with RG Ponza (land destroy), however today I felt that this deck was lacking a lot. This was my first time I went 0-4(0-8) in any modern event I played from the start of the format. Deck looks good, however it cant win fast enought and people will just draw out of the screw.
I am currently interested in both Tooth and Nail and Planeswalker devotion versions. Looking forward for your writeup CurdBros - I loved playing Wargate in eggs, and with the amount of mana we can produce it is great card - a way for tutoring any hate/wincon we have. I am however curious how the hell you ended up with wistful selkie, woodland bellower and eternal witness as well as emrakul in the same deck. We used eternal witness almast always only with command/trap and emrakul with tooth and nail/nahiri. I need to wait a bit...
Not to mention Doubling Seasons - I dont see any way why it should work here (especially without Nahiri).
Did you try to play Tooth and Nail/Planeswalker version of the deck? Similar that we had planeswalkers package/command package/pact package? They share similarities especially now with nahiri.
Wargate is briliant inclusion. With this it is possible to play 4 Wargates that makes "virtual" 5-8 Karns, 5-8 Nahiris, 5-8 Garruks, 5-8 Kioras as well as 5-8 Ral Zareks. Notice that both Garruk, Kiora and Ral Zarek can be used for acceleration, Nahiri/Kiora CA/filtering, Karn/Garruk/Nahiri board control.
Answered a few things above; but I did want to quickly write that I think your ideas are GREAT!!! I will definitely try some of these out. Let me know if you do as well. Wargate really was something I've had my mind on for a while; but I never felt the deck made mana quickly enough to make use of it. Once I realized I could use it to tutor for Nykthos as well (as a Wargate for 0 can tutor for a land) it was a 4-of immediately :). You can plY your land for turn, Wargate for Nykthos, play Witness grabbing back Wargate and then tutor for something huge...there are so many lines when you start adding in Walkers that Untap land, Curio to bounce things, etc. Wargate also allowed me to play the combo without needing 4x Curio...the worst part about Curio was having to play four to ensure you saw it; but not wanting it super early or in multiples...while I may go up to 2x Curio, that would be the most....and right now I'm happy with one.
I'll try to get the testing results posted this evening.
My father has had some issues with his health since being diagnosed with lung cancer. The treatment went well however they greatly reduced his immune system; so we've been in and out of the hospital for the last couple weeks with him catching pneumonia and other viruses/colds. He is being released today; so I will have time to get a few more rounds in and add them to it. On the bright side...he said today that he feels better now than he can ever even remember
Sad to hear about it, glad that everything went well and his going back to health.
I really like the inclusion of wargates, they can create additional dimmension how we can play our game. When I started building around with it, I noticed it created a lot of new slots that helps with consistency of this deck. Just by paying 3 mana we can get our free Nykthos on board. Just why we didn't consider playing it before... It also creates lots of free space we lacked before.
@Fertile Growth - Can you write something about it? Most people here dont like this card (I also dont like it).
@Doubling Season - I would not write this card up. From what I have seen lots of decks currently starts to play 4 Nahiris with 1 Emrakul without playing other stuff like Tooth and Nail or Goryo. Doubling Seasons enable all of our planeswalker to ulti time they comes into play, while some of them dont do much (Garruk and Xenagos creates double tokens, Karn is really hard to kill and can -3 every turn), but they make Kiora, Nahiri and Ral Zarek spectacular as they enable ulti turn they come into play.
This might create another deck, especially how all of those cards works well together and with cloudstone curio. I am interested and will start building versions of this deck ASAP.
I'll try to get the testing results posted this evening.
My father has had some issues with his health since being diagnosed with lung cancer. The treatment went well however they greatly reduced his immune system; so we've been in and out of the hospital for the last couple weeks with him catching pneumonia and other viruses/colds. He is being released today; so I will have time to get a few more rounds in and add them to it. On the bright side...he said today that he feels better now than he can ever even remember
Sad to hear about it, glad that everything went well and his going back to health.
I really like the inclusion of wargates, they can create additional dimmension how we can play our game. When I started building around with it, I noticed it created a lot of new slots that helps with consistency of this deck. Just by paying 3 mana we can get our free Nykthos on board. Just why we didn't consider playing it before... It also creates lots of free space we lacked before.
@Fertile Growth - Can you write something about it? Most people here dont like this card (I also dont like it).
@Doubling Season - I would not write this card up. From what I have seen lots of decks currently starts to play 4 Nahiris with 1 Emrakul without playing other stuff like Tooth and Nail or Goryo. Doubling Seasons enable all of our planeswalker to ulti time they comes into play, while some of them dont do much (Garruk and Xenagos creates double tokens, Karn is really hard to kill and can -3 every turn), but they make Kiora, Nahiri and Ral Zarek spectacular as they enable ulti turn they come into play.
This might create another deck, especially how all of those cards works well together and with cloudstone curio. I am interested and will start building versions of this deck ASAP.
This makes me SOOO excited! Every great mind on this deck will make it that much better that much more quickly! I do like the idea of Ral and Nahiri...the deck definitely can go a few interesting directions. I think there is something here though.
On Fertile Ground
Fertile Ground is NOT the most efficient card. Utopia Sprawl is WAY better, and for mono-green decks Overgrowth is better (although at 3-CMC the lines play out a little differently).
This deck, however, has three different major parts that untap lands (Arbor Elf, Garruk, Kiora) and require heavy color requirements (blue, white, and green). While the color requirements can be hit somewhat easily; we really want access to all three colors as early as turn 2-3. Fertile Ground can help facilitate both. There are other options though that may be worth a try:
1. There is a possibility that you could just add a fourth Abundant Growth and a fourth Oath of Nissa (as outside of walkers, the only other card with any color requirements is Wargate.
2. You also could just run Birds of Paradise in their place if you wished. It may effect the really broken turns; but on average I honestly don't know how much it would effect your mana. I certainly agree that it should be tested all three ways to ensure we have the best "ramp/draw" package possible.
The deck is currently in the "tuning" phase; but it feels like it is a great "skeleton" for the Walker combo (i.e. the ramp core, Wargates, curio...). I can't wait to hear about your changes/ideas and how they played/tested.
I won't fill up the whole page (I'll put write ups/etc. in spoilers)...but I wanted to throw another quick idea out there for those brewing with the Kiora deck....Drift of Phantasms.
And of course any other three drop you play (if you want to play a 1-of Genesis Wave, a Chord of Calling, Staff of Domination, literally ANY 3-CMC card...we are already in blue. Also, it can be "grabbed" with Kiora's +2 and/or Oath of Nissa. I'll try it in place of the Bellower for a few games.
Another benefit is that in long grindy games with control, we can play it out (to block flyers and Colonnades if need be) and then bounce it later to transmute. This most likely is "too far down the rabbit hole" (i.e. one deck may not be able to utilize all of the cards); but I wanted to throw it out there for those brewing with the deck just in case.
Same argument goes for Coiling Oracle over Elvish Visionary...if we could cast Oracle easily it's a better card; but with infinite mana sometimes you can't get blue mana. I'll see how many times the blue mana.
1. The deck didn't feel as explosive with Birds. Didn't get to test it a ton; but the Untap effects are what make the deck go nuts in later turns. That said, having another turn 1 ramp effect AND creature (even if just for the body) is a plus...I'm not certain which is better. For the time being I'm gonna play Fertile's.
2. I'm not certain how easy it would be to successfully add a 4th or 5th color. One way to do it would be to play prismatic omen; but right now I feel most comfortable playing it as a bant deck.
3. 2x Cloudstone Curio may actually be better than one.
Flickerwisp is also pretty devastating to Genesis Hydra. If you wanted to board against this, I'd try Firespout. It's not good for us, but I suspect it hurts them worse. If you turn this game into a slog, you probably win in the long run.
I have Privileged Position in my "Maybeboard" for stuff like that (as it protects our lands/auras too). The problem is that the answers are so expensive that they may be able to get out ahead of us...on the bright side though; they're not the fastest deck either.
Hey Luca, thanks for posting your list. I've been trying to find the best creature-beatdown version of the list for a while, and there are a number of other folks on the same plan. I was about to ask for JaishivaJa's latest 75, for example.
There are so many different ways to put it together, and they all at least sort-of work, that it's been hard to work together on optimizing.
On your deck, I love that you have both Strangleroot and Kitchen Finks. I think dropping resilient early attackers is key to what we're trying to do. I wonder if the Tooth and Nail package is a fit; you end up using a lot of slots for the sorcery itself, Voyaging satyr, and wall of roots... how has it been working for you?
This is what I have been playing at small tournaments... It is fun, and reminds me of an EDH deck...
I can go infinite two ways using Temur Sabretooth, one with Garuk and another way with Voyaging Satyr and Scryb Ranger.
In my last tournament got stomped by Merfolks in the finals Primal Command is much too slow and they can counter it. What are good sideboard cards vs Merfolks?
However when you resolve Primeval Titan it's a great land to search out, additional value.
The Tireless Tracker is very interesting and I like the 1 of, especially with Woodland Bellower. The synergy with Primeval Titan is obvious, I would rather SB him against grindy MU, since he is fairly easy to remove. Do you already have experience with him?
Sylvan Primordial I feel like World Breaker is strictly better because of the cast trigger and the recursion possibility. Seems like a Multiplayer card.
Great discussion! You are right that we are (in my opinion)one of the best Primeval Titan decks in Modern. Titanshift is pretty strong too; but it's far more linear. A Toolbox Titan deck seems extremely strong. With the tutors we have available (Pact, Chord, Command) and with the use of Mosswort Bridge; you could easily run 3-4 Titans (to have 7-8 "effective" copies while still having access to numerous great toolbox options.
Your definitely on to something! The "pact list" I had before only ran 3 toolbox creatures main; but it looks like you have found a way to get more options in there. Great lists and great discussion.
Creamgravy
Spicy! I'll have to try them.
I'm down to two lists on the Kiora...one more "all in" on the combo and one with a more High end options to Wargate for (I.e. Karn, Doubling Season, etc.) I don't want to overwhelm the conversation; so I'll start with one and then go into the other....)
The "pact list" I had before only ran 3 toolbox creatures main; but it looks like you have found a way to get more options in there. Great lists and great discussion.
You can run a surprisingly high number of toolbox creatures in the maindeck. The trick is you have to cut down a lot on other stuff that isn't the core of the deck.
As for Prime Time targets, I'm not a fan of Mosswort Bridge. If your Titan gets taken out before you untap your Bridge loses a lot of leverage. I prefer my first few lands with Prime Time to provide me with resiliency yet still threaten a fairly quick end to the game. I like Raging Ravine + Kessig Wolf Run. Raging Ravine is a great manland for this deck.
The Tireless Tracker is very interesting and I like the 1 of, especially with Woodland Bellower. The synergy with Primeval Titan is obvious, I would rather SB him against grindy MU, since he is fairly easy to remove. Do you already have experience with him?
Tireless Tracker usually eats a path if played early, which is a good thing. Better to get this pathed than a Titan or Temur Sabretooth. Late game it is card draw. I also had The Great Aura in the deck, which had good synergy.
I use Genesis Hydra to find my combo, or possible to blow up a Planeswalker or a land.. if I find Sylvan Primordial. World Breaker has to be cast to get the same effect, and I only play one colorless land, so I doubt I would be able to reuse.
I have 2x Choke vs Merfolk. You can usually get it out fast enough if you get off to a good start or you can drop it onto board using a lucky Genesis Hydra in a pinch.
When they have a Aether Vial out, Choke is pretty meaningless. They can find a Vial faster than you can find a Choke
I am thinking of Sword of Fire and Ice and maybe extra Wolfbriar Elemental.
I think judicious creature removal is our path to victory over merfolk. Sudden shock, Dismember, Bonfire of the Damned and the like are useful to keep them from building a critical mass of lords.
A couple of niche Primal Command plays in this matchup:
- put the vial on top of the library to blank a draw and force them to tick it back up
- put the land they've hit with spreading seas on your library to turn off islandwalk
It's a rough matchup though; I still lose more than I win after board. Would love to hear how other folks handle it.
Was able to test a good amount over the last two evenings to try and quickly tune the Kiora Walker list (as I hate to post too many results of a deck that isn't at least close to tuned). Here is the most recent list:
The addition of Primal Command seems to give the deck a level of interaction that allows us to have enough play against the hyper aggressive decks in the format. It's also just another way to "scale" our mana. There still are plenty of "oops I win" rapid games...but I felt like I needed something to fill the gap so I wasn't solely focused on Cloudstone Curio. The other option was Genesis Wave and/or more copies of Curio. I to try Command first, however, as it seems well suited in the current meta.
I was a little worried about the low percentage of lands/creatures in the deck for a time:
1. Oath of Nissa can only hit 40/60 cards (67%)
2. Kiora, Master of the Depths -2 ability hits only 33/60 (55%)...the good news here is that we want some of the cards to hit the yard for Eternal Witness.
The only other small change was replacing the Fertile Grounds with Birds of Paradise. The untapping of lands is pretty important; but it could be offset by the 1-CMC. It is pretty important to the deck to have a turn-1 ramp play; so the early help may be worth the late game loss in mana. We'll see how it goes! Either way it will be one of the two of those cards.
The last slot is currently Wolfbriar Elemental; but it can be anything we want at the top.
I'm going to try to get more games in so I can give a proper write up; but in the mean time I will update the primer with info on Stompy and Pact builds (Wolfbriar, etc.)
I don't know but my gut tells me it will be hard for Wolfbriar to out perform Ant Queen in play testing if the deck can't bounce the Elemental to replay it for more tokens, especially knowing that the tokens (ant or wolf) will probably attack with Garruk's overrun effect, or be on chump duty. Considering that Ant Queen makes tokens at instant speed (and that I run XenReveler) I opt more for Ant Queen when I want this effect. Thoughts?
With curio, could you bounce Wolfbriar when one of its wolf tokens etb? I think so, because wolfbriar is on the battlefield when it's etb trigger puts the ability that creates the wolf tokens on the stack.
I'm excited about the kiora build because I'm only short a few of the cards I'd need to try it, and because it looks like the best shell to realize my mad desire to win by decking myself with a genesis wave that hits a laboratory maniac.
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Still waiting for your writeup.
I was convinced with RG Ponza (land destroy), however today I felt that this deck was lacking a lot. This was my first time I went 0-4(0-8) in any modern event I played from the start of the format. Deck looks good, however it cant win fast enought and people will just draw out of the screw.
I am currently interested in both Tooth and Nail and Planeswalker devotion versions. Looking forward for your writeup CurdBros - I loved playing Wargate in eggs, and with the amount of mana we can produce it is great card - a way for tutoring any hate/wincon we have. I am however curious how the hell you ended up with wistful selkie, woodland bellower and eternal witness as well as emrakul in the same deck. We used eternal witness almast always only with command/trap and emrakul with tooth and nail/nahiri. I need to wait a bit...
Not to mention Doubling Seasons - I dont see any way why it should work here (especially without Nahiri).
Did you try to play Tooth and Nail/Planeswalker version of the deck? Similar that we had planeswalkers package/command package/pact package? They share similarities especially now with nahiri.
Edit:
Brewing I saw 2 options.
1) Tooth & Nail inclusion: 8-9 slots (1 emrakul, 1 xenagod, 2-3 nahiri, 4 tooth and nail)
2) Primal Coommand package (makes Kiora much better): (4 Eternal Witness, 3 Primal Command).
Wargate is briliant inclusion. With this it is possible to play 4 Wargates that makes "virtual" 5-8 Karns, 5-8 Nahiris, 5-8 Garruks, 5-8 Kioras as well as 5-8 Ral Zareks. Notice that both Garruk, Kiora and Ral Zarek can be used for acceleration, Nahiri/Kiora CA/filtering, Karn/Garruk/Nahiri board control.
So great to hear from you again!
I'll try to get the testing results posted this evening.
My father has had some issues with his health since being diagnosed with lung cancer. The treatment went well however they greatly reduced his immune system; so we've been in and out of the hospital for the last couple weeks with him catching pneumonia and other viruses/colds. He is being released today; so I will have time to get a few more rounds in and add them to it. On the bright side...he said today that he feels better now than he can ever even remember
The Doubling Season was kind of a "fun of" in the board....it's won a couple games with an ult-Ed Kiora; but probably not worth the slot. Certainly not necessary to the success of the deck. It is something, however, I'm keeping on the "potential" list just given the decks use of Wargate abs Walkers.
Use of Emrakul
Emrakul is just a quick way to end the game once you have infinite mana. I have found; however, that he's also quite hard-cast-able as well though (I've won more games just casting him than I ever thought I would). With infinite mana; you can either draw out the deck with an enchantment loop, creature loop, or Kiora's -2....you can also Wargate for him. After you've attached with him; you can cast any creature, bounce him, and re-cast him...this way you get "infinite" turns as well. Having said this; you don't have to play Emrakul. With the Walker combo you already can draw out the deck and make infinite 3/3 beasts...I just like to be sure I've won on the turn I put the combo together...there are tons of other ways to do it though:
1. Karn Liberated - probably the best choice...once infinite you can exile their entire board and hand.
2. Amy permanent form of direct damage - Ajani Vengeant, Ral Zarek, inferno Titan, purphoros, any creature or enchantment that "pings" people, etc. preferably you'd want a creature so Kiora could draw it.
3. Any Haste enabler - Sarkhan Vol, Hammer of Purphoros, Temur Ascendancy, etc. you want one that gives everyone haste rather than just a single creature.
The trick is getting one that can be naturally cast for advantage in the deck (I.e. When you don't have the combo). To be honest; Karn is probay the best bet...Emrakul is just such an easy win (and saves time on MTGO )
Use of Eternal Witness
Eternal Witness does some important stuff in this deck. She buys back Wargate (which can be huge in assembling the combo) and can grab anything that Kiora pitches to the yard with her -2 ability. There is also an infinite combo with 2x Garruk, a Witness and a Curio; but that's just a happy extra (not a reason to use her).
Use of Wistful Selkie
The deck only runs quickly when you have (a) a ton of mana and (b) a ton of cards. Card draw is super important to the deck. I've been working on getting at least one Coiling Oracle in the deck; but that's a different topic...Wistful Selkie just accomplishes both. He gets your devotion up extremely quickly while replacing himself. I wanted as many "Nykthos Free" cards as possible (their cost is equal to their devotion) and its one of the best. There is an argument for playing 4x Elvish Visionary before a single Selkie; but the devotion has mattered and so has the. 2/2 body (I've played so many Abzan Company and Kiki-Chord decks that I see Orzhav Pontif way too much!).
Other Choices
Woodland Bellower is just a value play. You get a 6/5 body and either a Selkie or Witness (so 2 bodies, 8 power, an additional card, and 4-5 devotion...all for 6-mana). That, and it's good with Curio. Again, may not be completely necessary; but good for games not going perfectly. Also grabs useful sideboard cards like Reclamation Sage and Melira.
The deck is far from tuned though. I want/hope for input from others on how to tune the deck and/or great options for the deck. Wargate changed quite a bit. It really aided in the consistency and speed of the deck and helped make the board a lot more useful without ever having at side out the combo. It also, however, means that (a) I have a few more slots to play with and (b) the balance of card draw spells becomes a little more important, and (c ) it's gonna take a little more work to tune the main/sideboard to make it work fast/consistent enough to be a truly viable tier 2 deck.
I like the ode of Primal Command. I did worry I may have too many non-permanents/creatures (to be hit by Oath and Kiora); but I would think 1 more wouldn't kill the deck
Tooth and Nail Builds
The Tooth and Nail deck is currently the most "tuned" green ramp deck (I.e. The most MTGI results). I think the deck is one of the best decks you can play on MTGO. It's a great deck. With the right board; I honestly believe the deck is a viable long-term Modern Tier deck. The detractors of the deck claim it is just an "MTGO deck" (saying you can spike a league and go 4-1/5-0 on any given day but over a longer tournament it wouldn't be consistent enough)...this, however, can be said about any combo deck; and UEGJO and others have shown that with the right toolbox of creatures/cards in the main deck and sideboard that the deck can perform well in a consistent basis. The community on here has tuned the deck to a great place. I would advise anyone new to devotion/ramp to play it. While it doesn't fit my preferences for a few reasons; there is no denying that it is a great deck that is posting results. As the meta moves a little more to control (I think Nahiri has officially created a tier Jeskai Control deck) the deck will have to add Summoning Traps and play a tiny bit different; but I think it's gonna be fine in ant meta.
There will always be the argument as to what the "best" win condition is in Green Devotion/ramp; but there is no argument that Tooth and Nail is a viable and successful option.
** be back in 2 hours; and will provide as much info/results as I can...sorry for jumbled nature of this...sent from phone.***
Answered a few things above; but I did want to quickly write that I think your ideas are GREAT!!! I will definitely try some of these out. Let me know if you do as well. Wargate really was something I've had my mind on for a while; but I never felt the deck made mana quickly enough to make use of it. Once I realized I could use it to tutor for Nykthos as well (as a Wargate for 0 can tutor for a land) it was a 4-of immediately :). You can plY your land for turn, Wargate for Nykthos, play Witness grabbing back Wargate and then tutor for something huge...there are so many lines when you start adding in Walkers that Untap land, Curio to bounce things, etc. Wargate also allowed me to play the combo without needing 4x Curio...the worst part about Curio was having to play four to ensure you saw it; but not wanting it super early or in multiples...while I may go up to 2x Curio, that would be the most....and right now I'm happy with one.
Sad to hear about it, glad that everything went well and his going back to health.
I really like the inclusion of wargates, they can create additional dimmension how we can play our game. When I started building around with it, I noticed it created a lot of new slots that helps with consistency of this deck. Just by paying 3 mana we can get our free Nykthos on board. Just why we didn't consider playing it before... It also creates lots of free space we lacked before.
@Fertile Growth - Can you write something about it? Most people here dont like this card (I also dont like it).
@Doubling Season - I would not write this card up. From what I have seen lots of decks currently starts to play 4 Nahiris with 1 Emrakul without playing other stuff like Tooth and Nail or Goryo. Doubling Seasons enable all of our planeswalker to ulti time they comes into play, while some of them dont do much (Garruk and Xenagos creates double tokens, Karn is really hard to kill and can -3 every turn), but they make Kiora, Nahiri and Ral Zarek spectacular as they enable ulti turn they come into play.
This might create another deck, especially how all of those cards works well together and with cloudstone curio. I am interested and will start building versions of this deck ASAP.
This makes me SOOO excited! Every great mind on this deck will make it that much better that much more quickly! I do like the idea of Ral and Nahiri...the deck definitely can go a few interesting directions. I think there is something here though.
On Fertile Ground
Fertile Ground is NOT the most efficient card. Utopia Sprawl is WAY better, and for mono-green decks Overgrowth is better (although at 3-CMC the lines play out a little differently).
This deck, however, has three different major parts that untap lands (Arbor Elf, Garruk, Kiora) and require heavy color requirements (blue, white, and green). While the color requirements can be hit somewhat easily; we really want access to all three colors as early as turn 2-3. Fertile Ground can help facilitate both. There are other options though that may be worth a try:
1. There is a possibility that you could just add a fourth Abundant Growth and a fourth Oath of Nissa (as outside of walkers, the only other card with any color requirements is Wargate.
2. You also could just run Birds of Paradise in their place if you wished. It may effect the really broken turns; but on average I honestly don't know how much it would effect your mana. I certainly agree that it should be tested all three ways to ensure we have the best "ramp/draw" package possible.
The deck is currently in the "tuning" phase; but it feels like it is a great "skeleton" for the Walker combo (i.e. the ramp core, Wargates, curio...). I can't wait to hear about your changes/ideas and how they played/tested.
Drift of Phantasms at its base gives us a flying blocker; but it's real use is it's Transmute ability. It can transmute for:
1. Cloudstone Curio
2. Wargate
3. Eternal Witness
4. Wistful Selkie
And of course any other three drop you play (if you want to play a 1-of Genesis Wave, a Chord of Calling, Staff of Domination, literally ANY 3-CMC card...we are already in blue. Also, it can be "grabbed" with Kiora's +2 and/or Oath of Nissa. I'll try it in place of the Bellower for a few games.
Another benefit is that in long grindy games with control, we can play it out (to block flyers and Colonnades if need be) and then bounce it later to transmute. This most likely is "too far down the rabbit hole" (i.e. one deck may not be able to utilize all of the cards); but I wanted to throw it out there for those brewing with the deck just in case.
Same argument goes for Coiling Oracle over Elvish Visionary...if we could cast Oracle easily it's a better card; but with infinite mana sometimes you can't get blue mana. I'll see how many times the blue mana.
Here's a list with a couple of those ideas:
4x Arbor Elf
3x Birds of Paradise
2x Elvish Visionary
3x Wistful Selkie
3x Eternal Witness
1x Drift of Phantasms
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oath of Nissa
3x Abundant Growth
Planeswalkers
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Kiora, Master of the Depths
1x Karn Liberated
1x Cloudstone Curio
4x Wargate
Land
7x Forest
6x Green Fetch
2x Breeding Pool
1x Temple Garden
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
** Edit/Update (From tonight's testing) **
1. The deck didn't feel as explosive with Birds. Didn't get to test it a ton; but the Untap effects are what make the deck go nuts in later turns. That said, having another turn 1 ramp effect AND creature (even if just for the body) is a plus...I'm not certain which is better. For the time being I'm gonna play Fertile's.
2. I'm not certain how easy it would be to successfully add a 4th or 5th color. One way to do it would be to play prismatic omen; but right now I feel most comfortable playing it as a bant deck.
3. 2x Cloudstone Curio may actually be better than one.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
There are so many different ways to put it together, and they all at least sort-of work, that it's been hard to work together on optimizing.
On your deck, I love that you have both Strangleroot and Kitchen Finks. I think dropping resilient early attackers is key to what we're trying to do. I wonder if the Tooth and Nail package is a fit; you end up using a lot of slots for the sorcery itself, Voyaging satyr, and wall of roots... how has it been working for you?
I can go infinite two ways using Temur Sabretooth, one with Garuk and another way with Voyaging Satyr and Scryb Ranger.
2x Voyaging Satyr
1x Scryb Ranger
3x Wistful Selkie
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Tireless Tracker
3x Eternal Witness
1x Temur Sabretooth
1x Wolfbriar Elemental
1x Woodland Bellower
1x Acidic Slime
3x Primeval Titan
1x Sylvan Primordial
3x Genesis Hydra
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Garruk Relentless
4x Primal Command
Land (22)
9x Forest
5x Fetch
1x Mosswort Bridge
2x Stomping Ground
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
I really like Mosswort Bridge/ Primeval Titan. I find it is easy to get 10+ power. Garruk Relentless helps me put Garruk Wildspeaker in the graveyard to Witness up again and can help me find important creatures
In my last tournament got stomped by Merfolks in the finals Primal Command is much too slow and they can counter it. What are good sideboard cards vs Merfolks?
However when you resolve Primeval Titan it's a great land to search out, additional value.
The Tireless Tracker is very interesting and I like the 1 of, especially with Woodland Bellower. The synergy with Primeval Titan is obvious, I would rather SB him against grindy MU, since he is fairly easy to remove. Do you already have experience with him?
Sylvan Primordial I feel like World Breaker is strictly better because of the cast trigger and the recursion possibility. Seems like a Multiplayer card.
Temur Sabertooth has really grown on me. Bouncing Eternal Witness is insane, plus he gets indestructible. Opponent needs a Path to Exile to get rid of him.
Great discussion! You are right that we are (in my opinion)one of the best Primeval Titan decks in Modern. Titanshift is pretty strong too; but it's far more linear. A Toolbox Titan deck seems extremely strong. With the tutors we have available (Pact, Chord, Command) and with the use of Mosswort Bridge; you could easily run 3-4 Titans (to have 7-8 "effective" copies while still having access to numerous great toolbox options.
Your definitely on to something! The "pact list" I had before only ran 3 toolbox creatures main; but it looks like you have found a way to get more options in there. Great lists and great discussion.
Creamgravy
Spicy! I'll have to try them.
I'm down to two lists on the Kiora...one more "all in" on the combo and one with a more High end options to Wargate for (I.e. Karn, Doubling Season, etc.) I don't want to overwhelm the conversation; so I'll start with one and then go into the other....)
You can run a surprisingly high number of toolbox creatures in the maindeck. The trick is you have to cut down a lot on other stuff that isn't the core of the deck.
As for Prime Time targets, I'm not a fan of Mosswort Bridge. If your Titan gets taken out before you untap your Bridge loses a lot of leverage. I prefer my first few lands with Prime Time to provide me with resiliency yet still threaten a fairly quick end to the game. I like Raging Ravine + Kessig Wolf Run. Raging Ravine is a great manland for this deck.
JACCJACC
Tireless Tracker usually eats a path if played early, which is a good thing. Better to get this pathed than a Titan or Temur Sabretooth. Late game it is card draw. I also had The Great Aura in the deck, which had good synergy.
I use Genesis Hydra to find my combo, or possible to blow up a Planeswalker or a land.. if I find Sylvan Primordial. World Breaker has to be cast to get the same effect, and I only play one colorless land, so I doubt I would be able to reuse.
When they have a Aether Vial out, Choke is pretty meaningless. They can find a Vial faster than you can find a Choke
I am thinking of Sword of Fire and Ice and maybe extra Wolfbriar Elemental.
A couple of niche Primal Command plays in this matchup:
- put the vial on top of the library to blank a draw and force them to tick it back up
- put the land they've hit with spreading seas on your library to turn off islandwalk
It's a rough matchup though; I still lose more than I win after board. Would love to hear how other folks handle it.
Mistcutter hydra is pretty hot stuff in this matchup, too.
4x Arbor Elf
2x Birds of Paradise
3x Wistful Selkie
3x Eternal Witness
1x Wolfbriar Elemental
Enchantment (11)
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Abundant Growth
3x Oath of Nissa
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Kiora, Master of the Depths
Other (9)
4x Wargate
3x Primal Command
2x Cloudstone Curio
Land
7x Forest
6x Green Fetch
2x Breeding Pool
1x Temple Garden
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
The addition of Primal Command seems to give the deck a level of interaction that allows us to have enough play against the hyper aggressive decks in the format. It's also just another way to "scale" our mana. There still are plenty of "oops I win" rapid games...but I felt like I needed something to fill the gap so I wasn't solely focused on Cloudstone Curio. The other option was Genesis Wave and/or more copies of Curio. I to try Command first, however, as it seems well suited in the current meta.
I was a little worried about the low percentage of lands/creatures in the deck for a time:
1. Oath of Nissa can only hit 40/60 cards (67%)
2. Kiora, Master of the Depths -2 ability hits only 33/60 (55%)...the good news here is that we want some of the cards to hit the yard for Eternal Witness.
The only other small change was replacing the Fertile Grounds with Birds of Paradise. The untapping of lands is pretty important; but it could be offset by the 1-CMC. It is pretty important to the deck to have a turn-1 ramp play; so the early help may be worth the late game loss in mana. We'll see how it goes! Either way it will be one of the two of those cards.
The last slot is currently Wolfbriar Elemental; but it can be anything we want at the top.
I'm going to try to get more games in so I can give a proper write up; but in the mean time I will update the primer with info on Stompy and Pact builds (Wolfbriar, etc.)
Some of my decks:
Oath Walker Devo - Modern
Stompy - Modern
Battle of Wits - Modern
Teysa's Sac Circus - EDH
Rob's 450 Unpowered - Cube
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I'm excited about the kiora build because I'm only short a few of the cards I'd need to try it, and because it looks like the best shell to realize my mad desire to win by decking myself with a genesis wave that hits a laboratory maniac.