Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Hello everyone, new to the site. I have been digging through this forum for weeks, and have really enjoyed all the information found here. So thank all of you for that. @ElliotRSmith, I have had some good results using wayfarer as well. I think the card does what the deck is looking to do, in that it is an incremental advantage that will take the game over.
I'm having a hard time visualizing when on the curve Wayfarer becomes relevant, can you illustrate some examples from your playtests? Right now I'm thinking it would be most effective searching up Ghost Quarters, but those aren't always great if you don't have Arbiter, which makes Wayfarer's activated ability cost 2W, which is not a stellar pay off early. Later in the game I'd certainly pay that to keep my opponent off certain colors/lock them out however.
It works ok with vial, but you're not going to use it if you don't have vial as you want to drop taxes/threats on turns 2-3.
This leads me to believe that wayfarer won't generally be useful until turn 3+, which is fine, but is a consideration. I could see it do some work to get utility lands out of the splash lists as well. Heavens knows how getting that miser Vault of the Archangel out from my deck could have swung a few creature matchups.
Have you guys on the W/b plan running Wasteland Stranglers considered running a Relic of Progenitus main? It seems like an acceptable exile outlet that does a decent amount of work against the decks it is good against and cycles against the ones where it is weak. Outide of Affinity and Elves I don't see where it is a completely dead draw since those decks are just to fast to lay it and sac it later with spare mana.
How should I approach the soul sister and martyr proc matchups? Feels like a really hard MU, or am I missing something important?
Curl up in a little ball and start to cry, because a really small part of the metagame is about to ruin your tournament.
Agreed. I would just concede, grab some coffee and enjoy a break. Last time I played vs MartyrProc, even curving out nicely both games and drawing lots of relevant cards, I couldn't actually get the opponent under 20 life.
Fortunately it's a niche pet deck, but it's by far the most miserable matchup for modern D&T in my experience so far.
Have you guys on the W/b plan running Wasteland Stranglers considered running a Relic of Progenitus main? It seems like an acceptable exile outlet that does a decent amount of work against the decks it is good against and cycles against the ones where it is weak. Outide of Affinity and Elves I don't see where it is a completely dead draw since those decks are just to fast to lay it and sac it later with spare mana.
Between 4x Sculler/PtE + Occasionaly 4x Wisp you don't really need another enabler to make 2x Strangler (the most I'd probably play) work, no point in wasting the slot on Relic.
How should I approach the soul sister and martyr proc matchups? Feels like a really hard MU, or am I missing something important?
Curl up in a little ball and start to cry, because a really small part of the metagame is about to ruin your tournament.
Agreed. I would just concede, grab some coffee and enjoy a break. Last time I played vs MartyrProc, even curving out nicely both games and drawing lots of relevant cards, I couldn't actually get the opponent under 20 life.
Sometimes I can grind it to a draw, but I'm liking that cup of coffee plan.
Fortunately it's a niche pet deck, but it's by far the most miserable matchup for modern D&T in my experience so far.
In all fairness, "niche pet deck" is exactly how people describe Death & Taxes, too. The problem here is there's no really good way to tweak this deck to take it down. It's like any U deck vs Merfolk. The deck just has a natural line against us.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
Fortunately it's a niche pet deck, but it's by far the most miserable matchup for modern D&T in my experience so far.
In all fairness, "niche pet deck" is exactly how people describe Death & Taxes, too. The problem here is there's no really good way to tweak this deck to take it down. It's like any U deck vs Merfolk. The deck just has a natural line against us.
Oh, absolutely, I don't mean "pet deck" as a pejorative at all, just a describer for "decks that people play for personal reasons, instead of purely competitive reasons"; I've been playing pet decks all my life.
@mightybenno Thank you! I never saw the Sword of Fire and Ice, I had seen the Light&Shadow once, and would've won if it was the Fire&Ice. I'm still big fans of them both, it just happened to be unfortunate how the swords fall some times. I do like that gavony idea too.
@PassTheChips The great thing about D&T is it's an aggro-control deck and can adapt. If I'm fortunate to have a weathered wayfarer turn 1 (or 2 w/ vial) I try and milk all the value I can out of him. Drawing a GQ every turn is pretty insane, and I wouldn't recommend dropping arbiter with a wayfarer in play. Just be patient, grab everything you can with wayfarer, THEN drop the arbiter/mindcensor to put the opponent back to an essential t2/t3 board state. I wouldn't recommend dropping an arbiter with a wayfarer in play, unless you need immediate LD.
Playing Lands like gavony and mutavault ensure wayfarer can get value in the mid-game as well. Additionally, how many times have you been in the situation where the only thing you want is a tec edge or quarter. Once opponents fuigure this out, wayfarer becomes a lightning rod and taxes our opponents removal. Small advantages.
Do you think Night of Souls' Betrayal or Curse of Death's Hold could be put in the sideboard of the B/W version as a 1- of? Night clearly hurts our deck a lot (Bob,Thalia,Wisp and more) so Curse might be more intersting. I don't see the payoff being good enough to compensate the risk of high mana cost. Is there a way to build around it after game 1? It just seems very good against some matchups (Infect, Affinity, Soul Sisters, Allies, Twin) to not be considered.
I will not play it, but would you?
The former is unplayable. The latter is 5 or 6 with Thalia in play. For a deck that struggles to get 4 or 5 together for Worship and Wrath of God, that's a haltingly steep cost. Add to that the BB cost and I doubt it. I'd be curious to see how it works, but it's not something I'd try myself.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
I had a chat about checklands vs shocklands with a guy recently.
My idea is that 4 shocks, 4 fastlands should cover the mana base providing it's not too heavy into one colour. That seems pretty free, Cavern of Souls could potentially fix mana as well which might be worth a 2 of. Spellsnare etc. are annoying if you're not playing something off the vial so I think a couple of copies of Cavern are probably worth it. Running more than two could be painful though.
The problem with Cavern in this deck is that we don't have enough consistency across creature types to be able to rely on it to do much of anything. You could lean more heavily on one or another creature type (Soldier, Wizard, etc.), but then you start to cut into utility, which is very, very bad for a deck that is driven almost entirely by utility.
For example, my own 75 breaks down into the following numbers by creature type:
Angel: 3
Bird: 2
Cat: 5
Cleric: 8
Eldrazi: 2
Elemental: 4
Horror: 2
Human: 11
Knight: 3
Processor: 2
Soldier: 5
Wizard: 2
While Human will hit roughly 1 out of 6 cards in the list, it's still useless with most of the rest. Cleric is the next largest presence, and it definitely isn't worth it. In a deck that already mains 4 copies of Æther Vial I'd honestly rather just have another Plains in a splash list.
That said, could be great in lists that luck into creature type overlap, but I wouldn't overly engineer that way and shave off utility just to use the card.
You just treat it like another colourless land and you name whatever you intend to drop turn 2. That's all. You're just saving your 2 drop from a Spell Snare, after that it's a colourless land. One of them in any list with creatures is fine even with a lot of creature types. Just view it like a once off, possibly twice off effect. The colour fixing and avoiding the inevitable remand stall, mana leak or spell snare make it feel more than worth it. Cavern is very strong outside of tribal decks.
I agree with this. we do not have a sufficient creature type hold to justify cavern. I do have to mention there is a guy at my LGS who sometimes plays DnT and plays with a couple of caverns as he plays with mangaras etc to get a stronger hold on the human subtype, in which case it could be justified.
As I said above, it's a colourless utility land. Any deck running lots of creatures gets lots of use out of Cavern. In a tribal deck, yes, you name your tribe and it's gold all the time. In anything else, you drop it the turn you want to play something without it getting countered. The first few turns are crucial in Modern and Spell Snare / Remand / Mana Leak love to screw with those. Getting your Thalia down changes the entire match up against spell heavy decks.
I had an idea about microsplashs earlier because I knew in the past a G microsplash was popular, but now, it seems that the U microsplash is favored. I thought I'd try to build a deck with both. It seems to have gone a bit heavier in the G direction than intended, but I think the deck can manage both colors while potentially still getting the best reasons to splash. I haven't really tried my hand at tri color D&T before. I'm aware this is the W(x) forum, but I still would like to get some opinions, if y'all don't mind. I know Charons in particular has done a bant version of the deck, but I can't recall seeing it.
This is the list:
I'm not sure if this actually can achieve the power of either splash, or if it just will spread itself too thin. It's weird how the exalted+ giest makes it feel like I'm just playing bant tempo which I guess I kind of am? I like the ability of coco and Ephara to bring me back into the game. Both interact well with geist. The SB also gets some cool options, but I can include those later, once I have a more solid MD list.
My first tourney match ever with DnT was against G/W CoCO Sisters. I was on a B/W build. G1 was 30 grind fest. He won. I won G2/G3 by dropping most of my taxes and going into an agroish deck. Path, O Ring and Wasteland where the all stars. G3 was a blow out though. He went supper wide by T4. Had like 4 x/1s. I dropped a Pontif.
I had an idea about microsplashs earlier because I knew in the past a G microsplash was popular, but now, it seems that the U microsplash is favored. I thought I'd try to build a deck with both. It seems to have gone a bit heavier in the G direction than intended, but I think the deck can manage both colors while potentially still getting the best reasons to splash. I haven't really tried my hand at tri color D&T before. I'm aware this is the W(x) forum, but I still would like to get some opinions, if y'all don't mind. I know Charons in particular has done a bant version of the deck, but I can't recall seeing it.
This is the list:
I'm not sure if this actually can achieve the power of either splash, or if it just will spread itself too thin. It's weird how the exalted+ giest makes it feel like I'm just playing bant tempo which I guess I kind of am? I like the ability of coco and Ephara to bring me back into the game. Both interact well with geist. The SB also gets some cool options, but I can include those later, once I have a more solid MD list.
This is definitely micro-Bant.
On the creature side, I think you can be a little more aggressive with some of your choices. All of the things in your list are well-known D&T staples, but I think you're a little light on attacking power. GoST is obviously powerful (and it gets much better with Exalted triggers), but it's difficult to keep GoST alive. When I tested with Geist, I found it trading unfavorably with cheaper creatures (like Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf), and that it was too slow against Affinity.
On the land side, I think this manabase will work, although I built mine differently. In Bant, I really like the fetch+shock plan, because that allows you to find the land that best suits your hand. Most hands that had a Plains and a Windswept Heath meant that I was off to the races, because I would just tutor up a Breeding Pool, so now I had access to WG and WU. In your case, you've really tried to minimize the self-inflicted damage, which is a very good idea. Given how small your splash is, I think that you may get away with it, but just be aware that if you have issues curving out, switching to fetch+shocks will really help.
My other thought about your deck is that you're really light on the noncreature tax. I'm sure you're doing that intentionally, to make CoCo more attractive, but I think you should really be swinging the other way on this one. You'll win more games by loading up on the noncreature taxes than you will win by playing CoCo (especially given that there are only 2 copies in your deck). After all, we're still D&T, and Thalia/Wingmare are some of the best taxes we've got.
You mentioned that you didn't remember seeing my list. It's possible that I didn't post it, because I try to not derail the conversation from the W(x) builds. I'm not going to bother wasting your time with all of the things that I wouldn't run again, but I'll leave you with a few lessons learned and a better Bant list that I would still play today.
Lessons Learned:
1) Fetchlands + Shocklands essentially mean you start at 15 life. Especially if you're running Horizon Canopy. Expect to take a lot of self-inflicted damage. That said, you will curve out smoothly. It was rare that I couldn't hit my spells on the curve, and quite frankly, the only point of damage that matters is the last one.
2) Running maindeck Kitchen Finks will really help mitigate the self-inflicted damage. This card is good to begin with, but it's particularly good in Bant.
3) Don't go too deep into all three colors. My build was not a microsplash. I ran Flickerwisp, Vendilion Clique, and Scavenging Ooze in the same deck. Don't do this. Drawing a Vendilion Clique feels great. Being unable to cast a Vendilion Clique feels terrible.
4) Knight of the Reliquary is a house. This guy. Wow. In a build with fetchlands, Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge, and Horizon Canopy, this guy is aggressive. You always want to have one, and they get better in multiples. Your opponents hate to see it, and it only takes two lands to pull this out of Bolt range. This quickly becomes the most aggressive card in the deck. You might think this would be a problem with the search taxes, but it's much more common to be swinging with this guy than searching, especially with all of the Exalted triggers.
If I were to rebuild the deck today, it would be predominantly WG, with a microsplash for U:
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I had an idea about microsplashs earlier because I knew in the past a G microsplash was popular, but now, it seems that the U microsplash is favored. I thought I'd try to build a deck with both. It seems to have gone a bit heavier in the G direction than intended, but I think the deck can manage both colors while potentially still getting the best reasons to splash. I haven't really tried my hand at tri color D&T before. I'm aware this is the W(x) forum, but I still would like to get some opinions, if y'all don't mind. I know Charons in particular has done a bant version of the deck, but I can't recall seeing it.
This is the list:
I'm not sure if this actually can achieve the power of either splash, or if it just will spread itself too thin. It's weird how the exalted+ giest makes it feel like I'm just playing bant tempo which I guess I kind of am? I like the ability of coco and Ephara to bring me back into the game. Both interact well with geist. The SB also gets some cool options, but I can include those later, once I have a more solid MD list.
This is definitely micro-Bant.
On the creature side, I think you can be a little more aggressive with some of your choices. All of the things in your list are well-known D&T staples, but I think you're a little light on attacking power. GoST is obviously powerful (and it gets much better with Exalted triggers), but it's difficult to keep GoST alive. When I tested with Geist, I found it trading unfavorably with cheaper creatures (like Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf), and that it was too slow against Affinity.
On the land side, I think this manabase will work, although I built mine differently. In Bant, I really like the fetch+shock plan, because that allows you to find the land that best suits your hand. Most hands that had a Plains and a Windswept Heath meant that I was off to the races, because I would just tutor up a Breeding Pool, so now I had access to WG and WU. In your case, you've really tried to minimize the self-inflicted damage, which is a very good idea. Given how small your splash is, I think that you may get away with it, but just be aware that if you have issues curving out, switching to fetch+shocks will really help.
My other thought about your deck is that you're really light on the noncreature tax. I'm sure you're doing that intentionally, to make CoCo more attractive, but I think you should really be swinging the other way on this one. You'll win more games by loading up on the noncreature taxes than you will win by playing CoCo (especially given that there are only 2 copies in your deck). After all, we're still D&T, and Thalia/Wingmare are some of the best taxes we've got.
You mentioned that you didn't remember seeing my list. It's possible that I didn't post it, because I try to not derail the conversation from the W(x) builds. I'm not going to bother wasting your time with all of the things that I wouldn't run again, but I'll leave you with a few lessons learned and a better Bant list that I would still play today.
Lessons Learned:
1) Fetchlands + Shocklands essentially mean you start at 15 life. Especially if you're running Horizon Canopy. Expect to take a lot of self-inflicted damage. That said, you will curve out smoothly. It was rare that I couldn't hit my spells on the curve, and quite frankly, the only point of damage that matters is the last one.
2) Running maindeck Kitchen Finks will really help mitigate the self-inflicted damage. This card is good to begin with, but it's particularly good in Bant.
3) Don't go too deep into all three colors. My build was not a microsplash. I ran Flickerwisp, Vendilion Clique, and Scavenging Ooze in the same deck. Don't do this. Drawing a Vendilion Clique feels great. Being unable to cast a Vendilion Clique feels terrible.
4) Knight of the Reliquary is a house. This guy. Wow. In a build with fetchlands, Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge, and Horizon Canopy, this guy is aggressive. You always want to have one, and they get better in multiples. Your opponents hate to see it, and it only takes two lands to pull this out of Bolt range. This quickly becomes the most aggressive card in the deck. You might think this would be a problem with the search taxes, but it's much more common to be swinging with this guy than searching, especially with all of the Exalted triggers.
If I were to rebuild the deck today, it would be predominantly WG, with a microsplash for U:
The goal was to hit Siege Rhino mana by turn 6 90% of the time as well as to be able to cast Birds turn one consistently. The turn six requirement was because I took into account use of Ghost Quarter. I ultimately moved away from it because it was too clunky and I was too fearful of Blood Moon. It also ate into my Tectonic Edge and Manland counts.
In theory the G/W/u would be easier. You have access to Seachrome Coast and Razorverge Thicket. Again I would personally design the mana base to be more G/W/u instead of W/G/u if that makes sense. Since you're running acceleration you could potentially try a 3/2 Arbiter, Mindcensor split to help prevent you from cutting off your own fetches. This gives you the chance for turn two fetch flash in plays as well as the strong Noble, Arbiter, GQ oppurtunities as well.
The goal was to hit Siege Rhino mana by turn 6 90% of the time as well as to be able to cast Birds turn one consistently. The turn six requirement was because I took into account use of Ghost Quarter. I ultimately moved away from it because it was too clunky and I was too fearful of Blood Moon. It also ate into my Tectonic Edge and Manland counts.
In theory the G/W/u would be easier. You have access to Seachrome Coast and Razorverge Thicket. Again I would personally design the mana base to be more G/W/u instead of W/G/u if that makes sense. Since you're running acceleration you could potentially try a 3/2 Arbiter, Mindcensor split to help prevent you from cutting off your own fetches. This gives you the chance for turn two fetch flash in plays as well as the strong Noble, Arbiter, GQ oppurtunities as well.
Trust me, the manabase is fine. Building a manabase is one of my strengths, and I'm confident that the one I listed will be workable, although probably not perfect.
As you clearly discovered, the problem with going from U to B is that your Hierarchs have to become Birds of Paradise. I've tinkered with Junk D&T builds before, but you have to lean more heavily on your third color (black) than you do in Bant. Hitting a Siege Rhino by T6 with a 90% certainty would be ambitious, and probably isn't possible if you account for the use of Ghost Quarter. Take the following with a grain of salt but...
If you have 24 lands in a 60 card deck, the odds that you see 4 lands by T6 (on the play, therefore in the first 12 cards) are only 57.3%. Toss in an Æther Vial, and you're probably at 70-75%. With proper mulligan rules, maybe you can get that up to 80%. But none of that considers having the "right" combination of mana, nor the use of any utility lands.
...the lesson here is that math is unforgiving. In every sense of that word. (And to that point, someone please double check my math.)
I wouldn't recommend the 3/2 Arbiter/Mindcensor split. I've seen WG builds do it, but in my experience, having an extra Arbiter to play on T2 outweighs the potential problem with a fetchland. I run fetchlands a lot in D&T, and it's really never been an issue.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
As I said above, it's a colourless utility land. Any deck running lots of creatures gets lots of use out of Cavern. In a tribal deck, yes, you name your tribe and it's gold all the time. In anything else, you drop it the turn you want to play something without it getting countered. The first few turns are crucial in Modern and Spell Snare / Remand / Mana Leak love to screw with those. Getting your Thalia down changes the entire match up against spell heavy decks.
At this point all I can say is test it and come to your own conclusions. We already run 6-7 colorless lands (GQ and tec edges) plus 2-3 mutavaults, all of which are much more crucial to the success of the deck than cavern is. Adding more colorless lands can be very dangerous for your mana curve. Although I´ve won games without seeing a single white source, its not something that you usually want to happen.
Use the search function in the thread, the past 3-4 questions you´ve posted (land bases, splashes, etc) have been discussed thoroughly and you´ll get a lot more information from those posts than you might get from some of these replies
I do not run mutavaults at all in my list and I have tested it and it's quite valuable, it's not purely a colourless land and the utility is invaluable. I'm happy with the mana base in my current list.
So I went to the RPTQ yesterday with a pretty similar list to the last one I posted.
I think the only changes I did main was -1 Brimaz +1 Mindcensor, and in the SB I took out Mark of Asylum, Crucible, 1 Crusader and a Liege, for an Eidolon of Rhetoric, Sunlance, weathered wayfarer and a second BFT.
Tourney Recap
Jeskai Midrange 2-0
Living End 2-0
Esper Gifts 2-1
Little Kid Junk 1-2
Affinity 2-0
Draw
4-1-1
Top 8
Kiki Cord
0-2
I felt like I got a bit unlucky in this match-up. I don't think it's a favorable one, but I got ridiculously flooded on plains both games. The second game I saw 19 cards, 12 of them being lands. Sometimes that's just how it works out though. Only top 4 gets the PT invite, but I am lucky that it qualifies me for the next RPTQ at least.
Biggest newest all star was Eidolon of Rhetoric. I'm really impressed with him in anything combo based, or blue based. The biggest flop of the day was surprisingly Blade Splicer. I use to think he was the Bread and Butter of the deck, but now I'm reconsidering his merits, especially in the dense green creature match-ups.
I'm testing a slightly different approach, and I'm sure I'll get some crap for it. Here's the ideas - a change of the one drops to total: 1 Kytheon, 2 Weathered Wayfarer, and 1 Judge's Familiar. I'm cutting resto. Cutting 3 Blade Splicer and one spellskite. For 3 Mirran Crusader and 3 Phyrexian Revoker in the main.
Before you right it off, here's the logic:
Cutting militant - Most of what militant is good against, the deck is already favorable against. Adding Weathered Wayfarer, gives a more MUST answer threat turn 1 imo. Being able to collect all the GQ's/tec edges is insane.
Cutting Blade Splicer - Splicer is GREAT on defense, but terrible for offensive strategies. Mirran crusader is a silver bullet, in what I consider poor match-ups (big green creatures). And adding the crusader to the main frees up precious SB slots.
Adding Revoker - I know. This isn't legacy. BUT I am running two swords, which gives him more offensive potential than previous D&T decks. Revoker helps a lot against our poor match-ups - Elves, Mana dorks.dec, CoCo, affinity, etc. And finds random value against other pillars of the format Exarch, Lilly, Scooze, Karn etc.
I tested the new version (pre-board) post tournament against Twin and Jund.
Twin 18-2. (20 games)
Jund 8-2 (10 games)
Conclusions: Revoker wasn't what we wanted most of the time (it's not meant for these match-ups), but randomly found value. Wayfarer is unbelievable, it feels like a pseudo bob, where if we can use it once, we're most likely winning that game. Mirran Crusader is a strict upgrade from Splicer, and is another MUST answer.
I believe this is an extraordinary move into the right direction, I don't think this deck HAS to be that different from a legacy port. And of course welcome debate.
...
Grand Prix Pittsburgh is about 3 weeks away. I'll probably be taking something fairly similar.
Hey Elliot,
I was wondering how you did at the RPTQ - I actually read your summary shortly after you posted it and have been meaning to sit down and formulate a full reply, but have been very occupied. First of all, congratulations! I’ve been continuously impressed with your success with the deck. To have won a PPTQ and done this well at an RPTQ is quite the feat.
Regarding your matches
My personal experience against UWR hasn’t been stellar, partially because the one player who plays those colours (UWR Control) at my store is very skilled with it. What sort of cards were they playing?
Did Eidolon of Rhetoric see play in your match against Living End? I don’t have extensive experience in this matchup, but my impression is that although D&T has a clear advantage overall and has many ways of making it difficult/impossible for the Living End player to go off, if he/she is able to resolve the cascade, it’s actually quite difficult to come back into the game (and this is something that I think applies to multiple matchups – e.g. Tron, although D&T may have a statistically favourable matchup, the games in which you're behind, it's difficult to change a poor game state in your favour). Anyways, glad to see it gave you no trouble.
I also do think that Little Kid Junk is generally a poor matchup. This is evident even in the deckbuilding process of D&T. By that I mean, searching for more inherently powerful cards will tend to lead you from mono-W D&T towards W/G D&T, which obviously has a wide variety of possible builds. In a few of those, you can easily slippery slope into building a deck that might as well be a Little Kid Abzan deck (i.e. once you lean heavily on cards like Smiter, Voice of Resurgence, Wilt-Leaf Liege, etc). So in that regard, Little Kid Abzan does a lot of things better than us – being a highly disruptive yet efficient creature-based deck.
How did your match against Affinity go? What are some keys to the matchup for you?
(With regards to the changes you made to your sideboard, I’ve seen multiple successful lists run Sunlance in the sideboard. Of course, there’s always some debate/grey area as to what the best removal/utility sideboard spell is, whether it’s Sunlance, Valorous Stance, Celestial Purge, Dromoka’s Command, etc. But I have recently been somewhat inclined towards the idea that Sunlance is incredibly good in the Affinity matchup, which is by no means a “great” matchup, since ~3 sideboard hate cards will by no means guarantee you the win. And by incredibly good, I think it’s a relative thing – Sunlance is much more helpful in the Affinity matchup than Valorous Stance/Celestial Purge are in their respective matchups. Is this in line with your own thinking/experience?)
Regarding Kiki-Chord
As for your top 8 match I have to say that was quite unfortunate. I have a tendency to be pessimistic and say this about more matchups than I should, but Kiki-Chord is honestly one of the more brutal matchups for D&T (and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise). Sure, there’s a chance you get a nutty opening and get a free win, but between mana-dorks and creature-based value (with or without Chord of Calling), many games can feel hopeless. I personally think that Wall of Omens is their best card against us haha (not 100% serious here, but I think it’s pretty obvious (or maybe not) how good that card is against us).
Kiki-Chord is actually a big reason I chose to move into W/G D&T. I even went so far as to play one maindeck copy of Gaddock Teeg and another in the sideboard (though there are many major reasons I did this). I wrote about this a few pages back when I reported about my GP Trials experience. I played Kiki-Chord in the finals, and Gaddock Teeg, Scavenging Ooze (2 maindeck) and Restoration Angel were absolutely HUGE in my winning the match, which was still not completely in my favour I’d say. To elaborate, Gaddock Teeg does what Thalia and Arbiter can’t, which is outright deny them from playing Chord of Calling (though arguably Mindcensor also does a great job as well, but is less of an outright hoser in certain matchups). This is particularly valuable since they can more or less easily pay the tax since they have Birds of Paradise, Wall of Roots, Convoke, etc. Scavenging Ooze turns off one of their biggest plays (Eternal Witness) and also serves as one of the only creatures that can get unmanageably big. Restoration Angel flies, and Restoration Angel is amazing.
In any case, Kiki-Chord is a bad matchup, and your poor draws certainly didn’t help at all.
While it’s very unfortunate that you weren’t able to quality for the Pro Tour, qualifying for another RPTQ is still great of course. Keep at it!
Regarding your changes
I think that the effect on Eidolon of Rhetoric is very powerful. For this reason, I’ve tried Ethersworn Canonist on multiple occasions. It’s always satisfying to Vial it in against a Snapcaster or Abbot of Keral Keep (the latter being much less common). It’s obviously most valuable if you are certain you’ll come across Living End or Storm (the former having risen in popularity a few months ago). In terms of specific choice between Eidolon and Canonist, I have never been able to make up my mind. Eidolon has a better body, affects Affinity (and Eggs I guess?), but costs 3 (which makes it much less good against Affinity). I suppose if anything it’s better in W/G, which can be accelerated with Hierarch. Either way, unfortunately we have such diverse sideboard options, but limited room - hard to judge conclusively.
With regards to your comments on Blade Splicer, I would have to partially agree. I briefly mentioned this in a previous post of mine, but having Blade Splicer gives you a very “no-brainer” value target for Flickerwisp/Restoration Angel. As great as it can be, I’ve realized that it can often be a trap, misleading/distracting you from more crucial plays you could be making with your flicker effects. Now this particular argument isn’t to comment on how good/not good Blade Splicer is, but I think it’s something important for any/everyone playing this deck to keep in mind. As for the card itself, I do think it has its place. In particular, it’s good in against Burn and Affinity (mostly for Etched Champion, though it does little to help against all of their fliers) – and Burn is seeing an increase in popularity/metagame status, with this past weekend’s results somewhat indicative of that. Something to keep in mind. I will admit that when transitioning to W/G, Blade Splicer is one of the first cards I ended up cutting completely. Unfortunately, 3/3’s are indeed not great in the metagame.
With regards to Phyrexian Revoker, while I won’t dismiss the card, and can certainly see its applications, I would venture to guess that you’ll eventually end up cutting it. I’m not going to fully articulate my reason for this, but it’s how I feel.
Restoration Angel is amazing. It’s better than Collected Company (in D&T). This is also something I ranted about in my tournament report. I strongly, strongly urge you to not cut it. Or – do cut it, then put it back :P. Even without Blade Splicer, Resto is an absolute house. It gives you tremendous control over the game, and a bulky flyer is one of the best things this deck could ask for, especially against our worse matchups.
Re: your test games against Jund – what did you find was the big difference-maker that skewed those games so heavily in your favour?
Wayfarer seems interesting, though it has some obvious dissonances with the rest of the deck, I’ll reserve judgment for now.
Lastly
Lastly, I am hoping/planning to attend GP Pittsburgh as well!
WUDeath&TaxesWG
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URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I'm having a hard time visualizing when on the curve Wayfarer becomes relevant, can you illustrate some examples from your playtests? Right now I'm thinking it would be most effective searching up Ghost Quarters, but those aren't always great if you don't have Arbiter, which makes Wayfarer's activated ability cost 2W, which is not a stellar pay off early. Later in the game I'd certainly pay that to keep my opponent off certain colors/lock them out however.
It works ok with vial, but you're not going to use it if you don't have vial as you want to drop taxes/threats on turns 2-3.
This leads me to believe that wayfarer won't generally be useful until turn 3+, which is fine, but is a consideration. I could see it do some work to get utility lands out of the splash lists as well. Heavens knows how getting that miser Vault of the Archangel out from my deck could have swung a few creature matchups.
Agreed. I would just concede, grab some coffee and enjoy a break. Last time I played vs MartyrProc, even curving out nicely both games and drawing lots of relevant cards, I couldn't actually get the opponent under 20 life.
Fortunately it's a niche pet deck, but it's by far the most miserable matchup for modern D&T in my experience so far.
Between 4x Sculler/PtE + Occasionaly 4x Wisp you don't really need another enabler to make 2x Strangler (the most I'd probably play) work, no point in wasting the slot on Relic.
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
Oh, absolutely, I don't mean "pet deck" as a pejorative at all, just a describer for "decks that people play for personal reasons, instead of purely competitive reasons"; I've been playing pet decks all my life.
@PassTheChips The great thing about D&T is it's an aggro-control deck and can adapt. If I'm fortunate to have a weathered wayfarer turn 1 (or 2 w/ vial) I try and milk all the value I can out of him. Drawing a GQ every turn is pretty insane, and I wouldn't recommend dropping arbiter with a wayfarer in play. Just be patient, grab everything you can with wayfarer, THEN drop the arbiter/mindcensor to put the opponent back to an essential t2/t3 board state. I wouldn't recommend dropping an arbiter with a wayfarer in play, unless you need immediate LD.
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
You just treat it like another colourless land and you name whatever you intend to drop turn 2. That's all. You're just saving your 2 drop from a Spell Snare, after that it's a colourless land. One of them in any list with creatures is fine even with a lot of creature types. Just view it like a once off, possibly twice off effect. The colour fixing and avoiding the inevitable remand stall, mana leak or spell snare make it feel more than worth it. Cavern is very strong outside of tribal decks.
As I said above, it's a colourless utility land. Any deck running lots of creatures gets lots of use out of Cavern. In a tribal deck, yes, you name your tribe and it's gold all the time. In anything else, you drop it the turn you want to play something without it getting countered. The first few turns are crucial in Modern and Spell Snare / Remand / Mana Leak love to screw with those. Getting your Thalia down changes the entire match up against spell heavy decks.
This is the list:
Noncreature spell 10:
2 collected company
4 vial
4 Path to exile
Creatures 27:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 leonin arbiter
4 flickerwisp
4 noble hierarch
2 qasali pridemage
2 spellskite
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 aven mindcensor
1 kitchen finks
1 Ephara, God of the Polis
2 flooded strand
1 eiganjo castle
4 qhost quarter
1 gavony township
1 moorland haunt
2 horizon canopy
2 razorverge thicket
2 seachrome coast
2 hallowed fountain
2 temple garden
1 tectonic edge
1 forest
1 plains
1 island
I'm not sure if this actually can achieve the power of either splash, or if it just will spread itself too thin. It's weird how the exalted+ giest makes it feel like I'm just playing bant tempo which I guess I kind of am? I like the ability of coco and Ephara to bring me back into the game. Both interact well with geist. The SB also gets some cool options, but I can include those later, once I have a more solid MD list.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
On the creature side, I think you can be a little more aggressive with some of your choices. All of the things in your list are well-known D&T staples, but I think you're a little light on attacking power. GoST is obviously powerful (and it gets much better with Exalted triggers), but it's difficult to keep GoST alive. When I tested with Geist, I found it trading unfavorably with cheaper creatures (like Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf), and that it was too slow against Affinity.
On the land side, I think this manabase will work, although I built mine differently. In Bant, I really like the fetch+shock plan, because that allows you to find the land that best suits your hand. Most hands that had a Plains and a Windswept Heath meant that I was off to the races, because I would just tutor up a Breeding Pool, so now I had access to WG and WU. In your case, you've really tried to minimize the self-inflicted damage, which is a very good idea. Given how small your splash is, I think that you may get away with it, but just be aware that if you have issues curving out, switching to fetch+shocks will really help.
My other thought about your deck is that you're really light on the noncreature tax. I'm sure you're doing that intentionally, to make CoCo more attractive, but I think you should really be swinging the other way on this one. You'll win more games by loading up on the noncreature taxes than you will win by playing CoCo (especially given that there are only 2 copies in your deck). After all, we're still D&T, and Thalia/Wingmare are some of the best taxes we've got.
You mentioned that you didn't remember seeing my list. It's possible that I didn't post it, because I try to not derail the conversation from the W(x) builds. I'm not going to bother wasting your time with all of the things that I wouldn't run again, but I'll leave you with a few lessons learned and a better Bant list that I would still play today.
Lessons Learned:
1) Fetchlands + Shocklands essentially mean you start at 15 life. Especially if you're running Horizon Canopy. Expect to take a lot of self-inflicted damage. That said, you will curve out smoothly. It was rare that I couldn't hit my spells on the curve, and quite frankly, the only point of damage that matters is the last one.
2) Running maindeck Kitchen Finks will really help mitigate the self-inflicted damage. This card is good to begin with, but it's particularly good in Bant.
3) Don't go too deep into all three colors. My build was not a microsplash. I ran Flickerwisp, Vendilion Clique, and Scavenging Ooze in the same deck. Don't do this. Drawing a Vendilion Clique feels great. Being unable to cast a Vendilion Clique feels terrible.
4) Knight of the Reliquary is a house. This guy. Wow. In a build with fetchlands, Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge, and Horizon Canopy, this guy is aggressive. You always want to have one, and they get better in multiples. Your opponents hate to see it, and it only takes two lands to pull this out of Bolt range. This quickly becomes the most aggressive card in the deck. You might think this would be a problem with the search taxes, but it's much more common to be swinging with this guy than searching, especially with all of the Exalted triggers.
If I were to rebuild the deck today, it would be predominantly WG, with a microsplash for U:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
1 Spellskite
4 Flickerwisp
2 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ephara, God of the Polis
2 Restoration Angel
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
2 Dromoka's Command
Land (23)
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island
Even just glancing at that list, I can tell that it still needs some work. But the manabase should be fine, and the list is reasonably aggressive.
Maybe we should take the Bant discussion to a PM?
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I was thinking something similar when I considered running Siege Rhino and Orzhov Pontiff
Here was my G/W/b mana base for comparison:
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple Garden
2 Forest
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Plains
1 Swamp
The goal was to hit Siege Rhino mana by turn 6 90% of the time as well as to be able to cast Birds turn one consistently. The turn six requirement was because I took into account use of Ghost Quarter. I ultimately moved away from it because it was too clunky and I was too fearful of Blood Moon. It also ate into my Tectonic Edge and Manland counts.
In theory the G/W/u would be easier. You have access to Seachrome Coast and Razorverge Thicket. Again I would personally design the mana base to be more G/W/u instead of W/G/u if that makes sense. Since you're running acceleration you could potentially try a 3/2 Arbiter, Mindcensor split to help prevent you from cutting off your own fetches. This gives you the chance for turn two fetch flash in plays as well as the strong Noble, Arbiter, GQ oppurtunities as well.
As you clearly discovered, the problem with going from U to B is that your Hierarchs have to become Birds of Paradise. I've tinkered with Junk D&T builds before, but you have to lean more heavily on your third color (black) than you do in Bant. Hitting a Siege Rhino by T6 with a 90% certainty would be ambitious, and probably isn't possible if you account for the use of Ghost Quarter. Take the following with a grain of salt but...
If you have 24 lands in a 60 card deck, the odds that you see 4 lands by T6 (on the play, therefore in the first 12 cards) are only 57.3%. Toss in an Æther Vial, and you're probably at 70-75%. With proper mulligan rules, maybe you can get that up to 80%. But none of that considers having the "right" combination of mana, nor the use of any utility lands.
...the lesson here is that math is unforgiving. In every sense of that word. (And to that point, someone please double check my math.)
I wouldn't recommend the 3/2 Arbiter/Mindcensor split. I've seen WG builds do it, but in my experience, having an extra Arbiter to play on T2 outweighs the potential problem with a fetchland. I run fetchlands a lot in D&T, and it's really never been an issue.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I do not run mutavaults at all in my list and I have tested it and it's quite valuable, it's not purely a colourless land and the utility is invaluable. I'm happy with the mana base in my current list.
I was wondering how you did at the RPTQ - I actually read your summary shortly after you posted it and have been meaning to sit down and formulate a full reply, but have been very occupied. First of all, congratulations! I’ve been continuously impressed with your success with the deck. To have won a PPTQ and done this well at an RPTQ is quite the feat.
Regarding your matches
My personal experience against UWR hasn’t been stellar, partially because the one player who plays those colours (UWR Control) at my store is very skilled with it. What sort of cards were they playing?
Did Eidolon of Rhetoric see play in your match against Living End? I don’t have extensive experience in this matchup, but my impression is that although D&T has a clear advantage overall and has many ways of making it difficult/impossible for the Living End player to go off, if he/she is able to resolve the cascade, it’s actually quite difficult to come back into the game (and this is something that I think applies to multiple matchups – e.g. Tron, although D&T may have a statistically favourable matchup, the games in which you're behind, it's difficult to change a poor game state in your favour). Anyways, glad to see it gave you no trouble.
I also do think that Little Kid Junk is generally a poor matchup. This is evident even in the deckbuilding process of D&T. By that I mean, searching for more inherently powerful cards will tend to lead you from mono-W D&T towards W/G D&T, which obviously has a wide variety of possible builds. In a few of those, you can easily slippery slope into building a deck that might as well be a Little Kid Abzan deck (i.e. once you lean heavily on cards like Smiter, Voice of Resurgence, Wilt-Leaf Liege, etc). So in that regard, Little Kid Abzan does a lot of things better than us – being a highly disruptive yet efficient creature-based deck.
How did your match against Affinity go? What are some keys to the matchup for you?
(With regards to the changes you made to your sideboard, I’ve seen multiple successful lists run Sunlance in the sideboard. Of course, there’s always some debate/grey area as to what the best removal/utility sideboard spell is, whether it’s Sunlance, Valorous Stance, Celestial Purge, Dromoka’s Command, etc. But I have recently been somewhat inclined towards the idea that Sunlance is incredibly good in the Affinity matchup, which is by no means a “great” matchup, since ~3 sideboard hate cards will by no means guarantee you the win. And by incredibly good, I think it’s a relative thing – Sunlance is much more helpful in the Affinity matchup than Valorous Stance/Celestial Purge are in their respective matchups. Is this in line with your own thinking/experience?)
Regarding Kiki-Chord
As for your top 8 match I have to say that was quite unfortunate. I have a tendency to be pessimistic and say this about more matchups than I should, but Kiki-Chord is honestly one of the more brutal matchups for D&T (and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise). Sure, there’s a chance you get a nutty opening and get a free win, but between mana-dorks and creature-based value (with or without Chord of Calling), many games can feel hopeless. I personally think that Wall of Omens is their best card against us haha (not 100% serious here, but I think it’s pretty obvious (or maybe not) how good that card is against us).
Kiki-Chord is actually a big reason I chose to move into W/G D&T. I even went so far as to play one maindeck copy of Gaddock Teeg and another in the sideboard (though there are many major reasons I did this). I wrote about this a few pages back when I reported about my GP Trials experience. I played Kiki-Chord in the finals, and Gaddock Teeg, Scavenging Ooze (2 maindeck) and Restoration Angel were absolutely HUGE in my winning the match, which was still not completely in my favour I’d say. To elaborate, Gaddock Teeg does what Thalia and Arbiter can’t, which is outright deny them from playing Chord of Calling (though arguably Mindcensor also does a great job as well, but is less of an outright hoser in certain matchups). This is particularly valuable since they can more or less easily pay the tax since they have Birds of Paradise, Wall of Roots, Convoke, etc. Scavenging Ooze turns off one of their biggest plays (Eternal Witness) and also serves as one of the only creatures that can get unmanageably big. Restoration Angel flies, and Restoration Angel is amazing.
In any case, Kiki-Chord is a bad matchup, and your poor draws certainly didn’t help at all.
While it’s very unfortunate that you weren’t able to quality for the Pro Tour, qualifying for another RPTQ is still great of course. Keep at it!
Regarding your changes
I think that the effect on Eidolon of Rhetoric is very powerful. For this reason, I’ve tried Ethersworn Canonist on multiple occasions. It’s always satisfying to Vial it in against a Snapcaster or Abbot of Keral Keep (the latter being much less common). It’s obviously most valuable if you are certain you’ll come across Living End or Storm (the former having risen in popularity a few months ago). In terms of specific choice between Eidolon and Canonist, I have never been able to make up my mind. Eidolon has a better body, affects Affinity (and Eggs I guess?), but costs 3 (which makes it much less good against Affinity). I suppose if anything it’s better in W/G, which can be accelerated with Hierarch. Either way, unfortunately we have such diverse sideboard options, but limited room - hard to judge conclusively.
With regards to your comments on Blade Splicer, I would have to partially agree. I briefly mentioned this in a previous post of mine, but having Blade Splicer gives you a very “no-brainer” value target for Flickerwisp/Restoration Angel. As great as it can be, I’ve realized that it can often be a trap, misleading/distracting you from more crucial plays you could be making with your flicker effects. Now this particular argument isn’t to comment on how good/not good Blade Splicer is, but I think it’s something important for any/everyone playing this deck to keep in mind. As for the card itself, I do think it has its place. In particular, it’s good in against Burn and Affinity (mostly for Etched Champion, though it does little to help against all of their fliers) – and Burn is seeing an increase in popularity/metagame status, with this past weekend’s results somewhat indicative of that. Something to keep in mind. I will admit that when transitioning to W/G, Blade Splicer is one of the first cards I ended up cutting completely. Unfortunately, 3/3’s are indeed not great in the metagame.
With regards to Phyrexian Revoker, while I won’t dismiss the card, and can certainly see its applications, I would venture to guess that you’ll eventually end up cutting it. I’m not going to fully articulate my reason for this, but it’s how I feel.
Restoration Angel is amazing. It’s better than Collected Company (in D&T). This is also something I ranted about in my tournament report. I strongly, strongly urge you to not cut it. Or – do cut it, then put it back :P. Even without Blade Splicer, Resto is an absolute house. It gives you tremendous control over the game, and a bulky flyer is one of the best things this deck could ask for, especially against our worse matchups.
Re: your test games against Jund – what did you find was the big difference-maker that skewed those games so heavily in your favour?
Wayfarer seems interesting, though it has some obvious dissonances with the rest of the deck, I’ll reserve judgment for now.
Lastly
Lastly, I am hoping/planning to attend GP Pittsburgh as well!