@inscho I've been playing between 1 and 2 blades with 4 thalias, 2 brimaz one anafenza and one eight and a half tails and its worked out fine. Easy to play on turn 3 which becomes it once the game starts to grind out.
@inscho I've been playing between 1 and 2 blades with 4 thalias, 2 brimaz one anafenza and one eight and a half tails and its worked out fine. Easy to play on turn 3 which becomes it once the game starts to grind out.
8 creatures to synergize with 1 or 2 cards in the deck doesn't seem like my idea of a good time. Any random Sword will put up far better testing results when it comes to grinding in the late.
If the blade attached to a creature once it hit play, then the blade's viability would be up for discussion. A 4 equip cost for 2/3 of your creatures is bad, no two ways about it. It was dead weight in the streamed games you shared (i think i watched them all). It's just not a rational dynamic...8/60 to combo with 1/60 is just bad odds. You want the blade in play before the legend hits, so you need to run a decent amount of blades as well as legends. You don't really want to be relying on flickerwisp to attach your bros.
It was interesting to watch your videos as your sequencing way at times quite a bit different from mine. There were a couple decisions here and there that left you more open for a blowout (i'm thinking against u-tron specifically). I'd go into more detail, but I watched them all this afternoon and I've worked a night shift and had a few beers at this point. I appreciated you sharing them, I wish there were more videos to watch of D&T. I don't get as much play time as I'd like.
EDIT: One small addition about Blade is that it asks you to tailor your sequencing to get the most out of it lest you be stuck with a dead card, this somewhat pulls your focus from how your opponent's board is developing which is a cardinal sin in D&T imo.
Don't get me wrong. If you are playing on a pptq or anywhere that your results are going to matter don't include it. Out side of that I don't think it hurts to include it. The blade was usually a sword of fire and ice but with more main deck artifact hate running around I'd rather play the one that can get equipped on turn 3. I also don't think you need to play it early if you have other things to do.
I'd be interested in how you think I could play things differently in those games I posted. I haven't re-watched the tron game but I remember him casting a lot of repeals, and I think I counted that I could do 8 damage with 7 power of creatures.
in the first game, i would've nuked a tron piece the turn before he got the set to play and activate mindslaver...i understand waiting to pop a ruins, but you were going into your first turn that you could deal him some damage and keeping him off tron was pretty clutch. ruins is only an issue after mindslaver is in the picture, and if mindslaver is in the picture you are forced to pop the quarter anyways. it didn't matter ultimately as you flooded out so hard.
second game i would've dropped serra avenger or maybe the other revoker instead of anafenza. if he counters, he doesn't have the mana to get the revoker off the board, pay the arbiter tax and crack the maps. if he doesn't counter, the revoker further nails down the maps, or you have a flyer in play that he has 2 turns to answer. either would've won you the game i believe. i think avenger was the play.
your draws were pretty rough both games, but i do think game two could've been pulled out aside from the math mistake.
Does anafenza work so well aside her interaction with blade splicer? I mean, splicer is quite well against a bunch of creature base decks. Thalia and splicer can kill a rhino, for example. Anafenza's bolster worth the slot? Again, first striker golems may kill etched champion as well.
You don't really want to be relying on flickerwisp
"focus from how your opponent's board is developing which is a cardinal sin in D&T imo."
Now with that situation I would of died if I didn't get the smiter from the misplaced liliana +1 and the noble hierach getting me able to play witness getting some extreme value, how would you guys play this example? If you notice that the finks actually let me play more aggressively and allowed me to win the race. I don't think splicer would of worked out the same. How would you read the persons deck going into game two? Explain why you think I made a mistake on something.
I'm interested because I don't think that I play like a conventional D'n't player.
Above all, you're playing a Hatebears deck nor a D'n'T, although I like the deck too. Keep in mind that the idea may be similar but they run different cards.
Don't need Hushwing. You'll destroy yourself with it. And hallowed Moonlight feels more of a sideboard card. D&T is a prison deck, not some deck that can win out of nowhere. You just keep grinding and keep them down until you poke them silly with weenies
@jendo87 Death & Taxes and Hatebear have a lot of cross over technology. Just as in Legacy, DnT and Maverick have cross over. It looks like a W/G DNT list to me but whatever it looks good most importantly.
@underused cards I'm aware Hallowed moonlight is an sb card (lol). I've been testing and it does really cool stuff against collected company in conjunction with flickerwisp! Just sharing some enthusiasm about some of our new stuff. Also not sure what the prison deck vs "win out of nowhere" thing is from? Sorry if my continuous vagueness is causing confusion in the forum.
@pbj4ugo hushwing gryff is normally a "Hatebear" card but I've sb'd it (my list only has flickerwisp/pontiff as etb). The question really is, "what match-ups do you want it against?" Maybe there is a better answer. At the time, I was desperate to shutdown primeval Titans, soul sisters and coco. I've since found better ways to deal with these decks.
My W/G Recap:
I've been playing this list for the last week and it's remarkable how different the deck feels to all other iterations of the deck. I've previously mentioned how much it reminds me of the Legacy Death & Taxes list and my opinion still stands strongly. I'm posting notes from my testing experience below.
Play Experience Pros:
-Access to early reliable mana base.
-Aggressive/strong early turn set ups.
-Exalted Triggers.
-Main deck resources (eternal wit, s Ooze, qasali).
-Collected Company is outrageously good.
-Greater Sb potential than mono white.
Play Experience Negs:
-Super loose to Blood Moon (debatable depending on board state).
-main deck resources sometimes fail against large portion of meta match ups (in ex, qasali vs Jund, scavenging ooze vs Tron). Just launching more bears to the board. Other builds don't seem to fall into this so much.
-Utility lands feel stretched thin.
-Still doesn't seem to have a "good" affinity matchup.
I'm a huge fan of this list! I still need to figure somethings out for myself. I was running a reworked list from SpiderSpace (which was fantastic!) but I have some goofy ideas that I really want to try. I don't like the delver match up very much here but it's almost even game in testing. I just hate unanswered young pyro which this deck has a hard time dealing with game one. I think the new aerial volley card could be a cool sb against lingering souls/affinity and I'm really curious about a couple other origins cards.
Hope to here some positive information and results from you guys this week! I'll also be posting origins analsysis this upcoming week as well. Hope it helps the forum!
I have been playing with WB Death Taxes with several variations mainly trying to solve the Soul sisters and Tokens matchup. The only way i figured to solve this is to try and control them with early Castigate and Tidehollow Sculler. I have been trying out various combinations of thoughtseize, Duress and Castigate but ended up with castigate as slower but better all around solution to many threats. Waiting turn more is usually worth the exile . So this is the list I have been playing lately. Ring of Thune is something I am testing for grindy stalemates (I know something else is more optimal).
Also Something I noticed that Stony silence is not worth killing you major deck strength. So I opted use one Pithing needle for activated abilities such ass specific artifacts and similar cards.
D&T is a prison deck, not some deck that can win out of nowhere. You just keep grinding and keep them down until you poke them silly with weenies
While I certainly (and loudly) agree with you that the direction I prefer to take with the deck is more prison-y than the tempo/midrange style some other people play, I think one of the things about "the deck" that so many people find appealing is that it is extremely customizable, to the point that even though we all call it Death and Taxes, no two people are ever really talking about the same deck. This is why we are often talking past each other: we use the same deck name to refer to an entire spectrum of possible builds, all of which must be piloted differently in order to maximize success. Anyone familiar with Wittgenstein's "beetle in a box" idea will know what I'm talking about, but for example, a deck that is running Avengers, Crusaders, and Brimaz is fundamentally a different deck than one running Mindcensors, Wingmares, and Spellskites in the same slots, and therefore trying to play them the same way will lead to disaster.
Not sure what your definition of "placed" or "major tournament" is, but off the top of my head, I made top 150 of GP Charlotte with what I would call a more conventional mono White build, user-some-number-that-I-don't-remember made top 8 of GP Copenhagen (in addition to 2 others that made day 2) with what I would call a more aggressive/midrange build, HugeElfBoy (and maybe another?) went 5-0 in one of the Modern Festival qualifying tourneys with a build similar to user's, and we've had a few people in recent months win PPTQs (one of which I believe was user).
Well, I get the point when you're splashing green to attack in different angles, with more threatening creatures. But I've been playing with many different cards and splashes for 3 years now. I've been playing modern only with these game plan. Tax earlier and win with weenies or beasts. GW Hatebears works completely different from WW. It's not the same deck and each archetype have its bad and good match ups. Affinity is still annoying, Jund it's 50-50( until she gets in play), Uwr it's favorable, tron it's favorable and etc. I choose WW cause it's more resilient of them all (according to my opinion and experience piloting the deck).
I'm not trying to impose my opinion upon yours, nor even open discussion about the best archetype for D'N'T/Hatebears. I was just arguing the fact of switching blade splicer's plan into Anafenza's bolsters. I was wondering if it worths the slots occupied by the original idea of the deck.
I gotta admit, of everything spoiled, this card has the most potential to make it into the core of this deck as we're well-situated to exploit it. It'll be interesting to see how it works out.
D&T is a prison deck, not some deck that can win out of nowhere. You just keep grinding and keep them down until you poke them silly with weenies
While I certainly (and loudly) agree with you that the direction I prefer to take with the deck is more prison-y than the tempo/midrange style some other people play, I think one of the things about "the deck" that so many people find appealing is that it is extremely customizable, to the point that even though we all call it Death and Taxes, no two people are ever really talking about the same deck. This is why we are often talking past each other: we use the same deck name to refer to an entire spectrum of possible builds, all of which must be piloted differently in order to maximize success. Anyone familiar with Wittgenstein's "beetle in a box" idea will know what I'm talking about, but for example, a deck that is running Avengers, Crusaders, and Brimaz is fundamentally a different deck than one running Mindcensors, Wingmares, and Spellskites in the same slots, and therefore trying to play them the same way will lead to disaster.
I do think we have a 22-card core we can all agree defines every deck that has ever been representative of Death & Taxes, however.
I know that a number of arguments can be made about the virtues of playing other cards in the deck, such as Blade Splicer, and that we want at least a third Thalia if we can manage it, but it's safe to say that if you aren't running those 18 cards, you aren't playing Death & Taxes.
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
Not sure what your definition of "placed" or "major tournament" is, but off the top of my head, I made top 150 of GP Charlotte with what I would call a more conventional mono White build, user-some-number-that-I-don't-remember made top 8 of GP Copenhagen (in addition to 2 others that made day 2) with what I would call a more aggressive/midrange build, HugeElfBoy (and maybe another?) went 5-0 in one of the Modern Festival qualifying tourneys with a build similar to user's, and we've had a few people in recent months win PPTQs (one of which I believe was user).
8 creatures to synergize with 1 or 2 cards in the deck doesn't seem like my idea of a good time. Any random Sword will put up far better testing results when it comes to grinding in the late.
If the blade attached to a creature once it hit play, then the blade's viability would be up for discussion. A 4 equip cost for 2/3 of your creatures is bad, no two ways about it. It was dead weight in the streamed games you shared (i think i watched them all). It's just not a rational dynamic...8/60 to combo with 1/60 is just bad odds. You want the blade in play before the legend hits, so you need to run a decent amount of blades as well as legends. You don't really want to be relying on flickerwisp to attach your bros.
It was interesting to watch your videos as your sequencing way at times quite a bit different from mine. There were a couple decisions here and there that left you more open for a blowout (i'm thinking against u-tron specifically). I'd go into more detail, but I watched them all this afternoon and I've worked a night shift and had a few beers at this point. I appreciated you sharing them, I wish there were more videos to watch of D&T. I don't get as much play time as I'd like.
EDIT: One small addition about Blade is that it asks you to tailor your sequencing to get the most out of it lest you be stuck with a dead card, this somewhat pulls your focus from how your opponent's board is developing which is a cardinal sin in D&T imo.
I'd be interested in how you think I could play things differently in those games I posted. I haven't re-watched the tron game but I remember him casting a lot of repeals, and I think I counted that I could do 8 damage with 7 power of creatures.
in the first game, i would've nuked a tron piece the turn before he got the set to play and activate mindslaver...i understand waiting to pop a ruins, but you were going into your first turn that you could deal him some damage and keeping him off tron was pretty clutch. ruins is only an issue after mindslaver is in the picture, and if mindslaver is in the picture you are forced to pop the quarter anyways. it didn't matter ultimately as you flooded out so hard.
second game i would've dropped serra avenger or maybe the other revoker instead of anafenza. if he counters, he doesn't have the mana to get the revoker off the board, pay the arbiter tax and crack the maps. if he doesn't counter, the revoker further nails down the maps, or you have a flyer in play that he has 2 turns to answer. either would've won you the game i believe. i think avenger was the play.
your draws were pretty rough both games, but i do think game two could've been pulled out aside from the math mistake.
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
Above all, you're playing a Hatebears deck nor a D'n'T, although I like the deck too. Keep in mind that the idea may be similar but they run different cards.
Hushwing gryff does not positively interact with all of our ETB effects. It's more of a hoser against us than anything.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
@underused cards I'm aware Hallowed moonlight is an sb card (lol). I've been testing and it does really cool stuff against collected company in conjunction with flickerwisp! Just sharing some enthusiasm about some of our new stuff. Also not sure what the prison deck vs "win out of nowhere" thing is from? Sorry if my continuous vagueness is causing confusion in the forum.
@pbj4ugo hushwing gryff is normally a "Hatebear" card but I've sb'd it (my list only has flickerwisp/pontiff as etb). The question really is, "what match-ups do you want it against?" Maybe there is a better answer. At the time, I was desperate to shutdown primeval Titans, soul sisters and coco. I've since found better ways to deal with these decks.
My W/G Recap:
I've been playing this list for the last week and it's remarkable how different the deck feels to all other iterations of the deck. I've previously mentioned how much it reminds me of the Legacy Death & Taxes list and my opinion still stands strongly. I'm posting notes from my testing experience below.
Play Experience Pros:
-Access to early reliable mana base.
-Aggressive/strong early turn set ups.
-Exalted Triggers.
-Main deck resources (eternal wit, s Ooze, qasali).
-Collected Company is outrageously good.
-Greater Sb potential than mono white.
Play Experience Negs:
-Super loose to Blood Moon (debatable depending on board state).
-main deck resources sometimes fail against large portion of meta match ups (in ex, qasali vs Jund, scavenging ooze vs Tron). Just launching more bears to the board. Other builds don't seem to fall into this so much.
-Utility lands feel stretched thin.
-Still doesn't seem to have a "good" affinity matchup.
I'm a huge fan of this list! I still need to figure somethings out for myself. I was running a reworked list from SpiderSpace (which was fantastic!) but I have some goofy ideas that I really want to try. I don't like the delver match up very much here but it's almost even game in testing. I just hate unanswered young pyro which this deck has a hard time dealing with game one. I think the new aerial volley card could be a cool sb against lingering souls/affinity and I'm really curious about a couple other origins cards.
Hope to here some positive information and results from you guys this week! I'll also be posting origins analsysis this upcoming week as well. Hope it helps the forum!
-Anthony/Catmix
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
I have been playing with WB Death Taxes with several variations mainly trying to solve the Soul sisters and Tokens matchup. The only way i figured to solve this is to try and control them with early Castigate and Tidehollow Sculler. I have been trying out various combinations of thoughtseize, Duress and Castigate but ended up with castigate as slower but better all around solution to many threats. Waiting turn more is usually worth the exile . So this is the list I have been playing lately. Ring of Thune is something I am testing for grindy stalemates (I know something else is more optimal).
Also Something I noticed that Stony silence is not worth killing you major deck strength. So I opted use one Pithing needle for activated abilities such ass specific artifacts and similar cards.
Anyhow here is my list.
1x Akroma, Angel of Fury
4x Blade Splicer
3x Dryad Militant
4x Flickerwisp
3x Leonin Arbiter
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Pack Rat
3x Restoration Angel
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Caves of Koilos
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
1x Mutavault
6x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Vault of the Archangel
4x Windswept Heath
Artifact (5)
4x AEther Vial
1x Ring of Thune
3x Castigate
1x Disenchant
1x Dismember
1x Echoing Decay
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Lone Missionary
2x Pithing Needle
3x Rest in Peace
While I certainly (and loudly) agree with you that the direction I prefer to take with the deck is more prison-y than the tempo/midrange style some other people play, I think one of the things about "the deck" that so many people find appealing is that it is extremely customizable, to the point that even though we all call it Death and Taxes, no two people are ever really talking about the same deck. This is why we are often talking past each other: we use the same deck name to refer to an entire spectrum of possible builds, all of which must be piloted differently in order to maximize success. Anyone familiar with Wittgenstein's "beetle in a box" idea will know what I'm talking about, but for example, a deck that is running Avengers, Crusaders, and Brimaz is fundamentally a different deck than one running Mindcensors, Wingmares, and Spellskites in the same slots, and therefore trying to play them the same way will lead to disaster.
There was JUST a major top 8. I'll have to try and find the list.
I'm not trying to impose my opinion upon yours, nor even open discussion about the best archetype for D'N'T/Hatebears. I was just arguing the fact of switching blade splicer's plan into Anafenza's bolsters. I was wondering if it worths the slots occupied by the original idea of the deck.
Edit: about the black splash, I loved tidehollow and Battle Brawler
4 Ghost Quarter
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (10):
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
Will try to search it again, Thanks.
Thanks.
It's a great card which can be used against us. Also, it's a nombo with Flickerwisp .