Honestly, he's got like 7 cards that come in in the burn matchup. The list looks fine. I think it would look dofferent if he tested it seriously, but bot that much.
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So, I may be losing my flying spaghetti monster religion. Recently, BW lists have been looking really consistent and fun. I'll probably keep the cards around to keep testing, but I'm probably going to start testing this deck a lot more:
6 MB Spot Removal spells, 8 after board, not including Lilly, and Hour of Reckoning
18 token makers, including Sorin. I've split 3/2 BB and Raise because I want something to stop early aggression and will bring the deck lower to the ground a little bit. I may go 4/1 in the future.
6 late game topdecks in Obzedat, Liliana, and sorin. These will help give us something to use our mana on when we're topdecking late in the game. having 6 lands out and drawing intangible virtue feels bad without a board. This is a point that Trevor Holmes brought up in the video and I have to agree with him. also, Raven's crime comes into play here too.
Sideboard gives us: 6 cards against burn; 5 against affinity; 8 against jund/junk; 5 cards against Merfolk; and 8 against Tron.
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Hey gang, unfortunately my Sunday did not go well. I went 1-2 and dropped. My games were Grixis Twin, G/R Tron, and Living End.
Round 1: Grixis Twin
I keep a hand of Path, Intangible Virtue, BB, 2 land and a Spectral Procession.
This game doesn't last too long. I see serum visions and a Vendillion Clique. I draw another path and a Sorin, I slow play with 1 mana always open for a path, and I finish him off after I path both his clique and a pestermite. 1-0
Game 2 I have a decent hand, with one path, still no discard. He baits my path with a olivia voldaren, and lands the combo next turn. Oh well game 3. 1-1
Game 3: Very grindy, I finally see my discard package, and see 2 I.O.K and both my Duress. My brave the elements saves me from an anger of the gods, and my shambling vents helped extremely throughout this match up. I attacked several times from a clear board to get in some damage. I finish him with an end of turn raise the alarm followed by a top deck Intangible next turn with no answer. 2-1
Round 2: G/R Tron.
Game 1: I come out of the gates firing, t1 Fetch, shock, Thoughtseize, yes I did that lol early raise the alarm and intangible gets him to 8 after a few turns with me lethal on board with my zealous persecution in my hand. He top decks the lucky tron piece he needed and plays his only creature, Emrakul and then I lose. 0-1
Game 2 I see Stony silence which was great as well as pithing needle but it still wasn't enough. He karns away my pithing needle to free up his ugin next turn, wipes my boards and permanents , then reveals the tutor land and then I scoop because I'm cardless. 0-2 1-1
Round 3: Living End
Game 1: I apply early pressure with my raise, bb, and spectral. I needed a sorin and/or a intangible to win. I keep top decking lands or things NOT what I need. Living end for a huge crap ton of creatures and takes it. 0-1
Game 2: I Stall out on 3 land with Hero of bladehold and sorin in hand, ive seen 2 fulminator mages to keep me off of black source and any 4 drop. I see some discard but once i see it the second time i see 3 cascade spells, and 2 jund charm. I scoop, because im frustrated about the land stuff, and 4 useless cards in my hand. I reveal the top 5 for craps and giggles and no lands. Just one of those days. 0-2. 1-2
Then I play edh with someone, stomp him all 4 games and feel better.
I picked up 2 hallowed moonlight for my sideboard, and Im considering to bring back in my tidehollow sculler.
Also considering ethersworn canonist or eidolon of rhetoric against my 2 loss decks. Multiple turns both of these decks can go bonkers with multiple spells in a single turn. Launch the fleet seems fun honestly.
Also considering a mainboard draw spell. I just want more to do. I just need to see cards that matter, and it's frustrating when you sideboard cards but don't seem any of them in certain games. Shambling vent isn't going anywhere in my list. I was never sad to see it, and I used it multiple times. I will definitely agree that it isn't for every meta thats for sure.
I'm not sure if I miss Liliana of the Veil yet I'll need to go to more tournaments to figure it out. I'm keeping her just in case.
Game 3: Very grindy, I finally see my discard package, and see 2 I.O.K and both my Duress. My brave the elements saves me from an anger of the gods, and my shambling vents helped extremely throughout this match up.
Honestly, I think that Vents has a place in this deck for this reason. As much as we can play Forge-Tenders and what not, we still get our ***** rocked by Pyroclasm effects. I'm going to be testing a couple in my list soon. The opportunity cost for manlands is so low, generally, that it's almost always correct to have some.
Then I play edh with someone, stomp him all 4 games and feel better.
This actually made me laugh out loud.
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Here's a summary of the 13 rounds I played in the last 4 days or so. Thursday & Friday, I played a build with no Spectral Procession, opting for Secure the Wastes & Raise the Alarm instead.
Thursday R1: Lose to GR tron 2-0
G1:He has t3 tron via Expedition Map into Karn + Ugin... Enough said
G2: Board into Ghost Quarter + Surgical Extraction... Mulled to 6, don't see either, and my discard does not slow him down enough to get to Tron and Ugin me out.
R2: Beat Restore Balance 2-0
Even when they cascade into the namesake spell, they're way slower than us, and Bitterblossom by t4 generated enough pressure both games.
R3: Beat Jund 2-1
G1, he wins with a fast start of t1 discard, t2 goyf, t3 abrupt decay on my Bitterblossom. Games 2&3, I side out most of my discard, side in Rest in Peace, and grind him out very well.
R4: Beat Abzan Aggro 2-1
I took advantage of a number of mistakes from my opponent to win. Zealous Persecution sure makes my Lingering Souls tokens happy and his sad.
Friday R1: Beat Ad Nauseum 2-0
He mulled to oblivion both games.
R2: Lost to Merfolk 1-2
He mulled to nothing g1. This might, my 75 didn't have many individual removal spells, so it was really hard to race this deck, and I lost g2&g3.
R3: Lost to Abzan CoCo (no combo) 0-2
Even without infinite combos, I got rekt by CoCo into Goyf + Eternal Witness, getting back CoCo, repeat.
R4: Lost to Merfolk again 0-2
Same story as R2.
After those 8 rounds, I decided that Secure the Wastes & Raise the Alarm were not good for me. They don't fly, so Abzan & Merfolk can block them, and they themselves don't block well without an anthem. I also decided against the GQ + Surgical Extraction plan because it was taking up too many spots in the 75, and opted for Vault of the Archangel.
Sunday IQ R1: Beat Merfolk 2-1
Spectral Procession immediately proves its worth again. I'm able to race him well in g1&g3 thanks to that, Bitterblossom, Vault gaining life, and Murderous Cut'ing a Lord.
R2: Tied Abzan 1-1-1
I *hate* to ever tie. I win g1 fast, but in g2, I keep top decking creatures to block his, all while drawing multiple Rest in Peaces from the sb to lower his clock. I have the kill in g3 if I had 1 more turn.
R3: Beat Merfolk 2-1
I was really happy to beat Merfolk again after my previous failures. Again, having extra cheap removal spells was key, as was gaining 12 life with Vault the turn before he thought he could win.
R4: Lost to Elves 0-999999
He nut drew me both games by dumping a lot of Elves on the first 3 turns. Zealous Persecution wouldn't have helped after he dropped an Elvish Archdruid to give the squad +1/+1.
R5: Lost to Grixis Twin 1-2
I make top 8 if I win this. Game 1, he Remands me about 20 times, and wins via new Jace & Tasigur. I board like he is on Twin anyway, which I'm right about. He mulls in g2, and doesn't assemble the combo to win fast enough. G3, he mulls to 5, but beats me after I make him discard Twin, 2 pestermites, but top deck Remands me 3 times again, so I have no pressure, and after wasting my 1 removal spell on Tasigur in an attempt to race, he twins me out. Tough way to lose
Sorry for the long post, but here's my TL;DR summary:
- Secure the Wastes was not good in any of these matchups. It shouldn't be in the 75 IMO.
- We need *at least* 7 removal spells in the 75 for Merfolk and related matchups.
- Vault of the Archangel is worthy enough to be a 2-of.
- I want to try splashing Red for Crumble to Dust for Tron, and Radiant Flames for Elves and any deck with mana creatures.
On the topic of Shambling Vents, I managed to open one in a prize pack so I'm going to test it out on Friday instead of my fourth Windbrisk Heights. I figure both ETB tapped so that downside is the same. Vents gives me fixing if I need it and is a creature that evades sorcery speed removal versus Heights which is a pseudo-impulse with timing restrictions on when you can cast the grabbed card.
I'll let you guys know if I notice a difference.
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"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
Sorry for the long post, but here's my TL;DR summary:
- Secure the Wastes was not good in any of these matchups. It shouldn't be in the 75 IMO.
- We need *at least* 7 removal spells in the 75 for Merfolk and related matchups.
- Vault of the Archangel is worthy enough to be a 2-of.
- I want to try splashing Red for Crumble to Dust for Tron, and Radiant Flames for Elves and any deck with mana creatures.
Honestly that write up is awesome. I have some questions/comments for you:
How many waste are you running? I'm running 1 and I find it great as a late game topdeck, which is something that behooves us to have.
I have also found that we need a lot of removal. Well, more than 5-6 pieces. I think we need ~6-7 spot removal effects and at least 1 sweeper like Wrath of Hour of Reckoning.
I never had much success with Vault. Are you on a 24 land build? I generally, did not have enough mana up to pay for Vault
I tried splashing red for a bit, and tested the Tron matchup. It was still terrible. By the time we crumble to dust they can have Karn/Ugin. A lot of the time, I was either mulling to find hate and failing to close out the game, or not mulling and never seeing hate. I'm not sure there's anything we can do to properly bring up our Tron matchup without sacrificing a bunch of slots for other matchups.
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I agree with everything that guy said about Gideon. I'd rather have Sorin. My issue is rarely winning the late game, it's getting to it - and Sorin gets me there with lifelink and lily gets me there with discard and sac effects.
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Modern GU Infect | x Affinity | RWG Naya Burn | W Death and Taxes | U Merfolk | BURG BTL Scapeshift | WUUW Titan | R Goblins | BURGW Suicide Zoo
Gideon doesnt strenghten the main goal of the deck (attack with formidable flyers with sheer numbers) as much as Sorin. The problem is we dont always have this ideal scenario. Very often it takes 6+ turns to even find a flying token generator. Well I dont run bitterblossom currently so that is sth to consider. But bitterblossom is so slow that you can only attack with one token the turn you drop Sorin on curve.
Often you are left in a situation to stall and that is where Gideon really shines, along with raise the alarm.like other have mentioned, Gideon sometimes steal games that were otherwise impossible. I think it is a mistake to run less than 2. Making 2/2 token each turn is huge, regardless of whether it is grounded when you take into account anthems. I run 3 Sorin because like I said, you need a full board to abuse it. If i ran bitterblossom, then maybe 4.
I splash red and I have to saying adding bolt makes the aggro and control matchups so much easier. I was thinking of running a 3 path, 4 bolt, and one murderous cut package. Along with discard, this deck plays much more defensively than bw.
Crumble to dust is too slow for Tron. I honestly think the best approach is to add fulminator mages, raise the alarm, rest in peace, and focus on bolting.
Windbrisk Heights is so much better than Shambling Vents, it filters bad draws away, frightens the opponent and it pushes us towards the win. Shambling vents only helps with color fixing if you need extra black and gets you some life for a high investment of 3 mana a turn.
I completely disagree with this. Heights also filters good draws away, and locks some of our most important cards away. It frightens our opponent to the extent that no one card we are playing is very impactful. None. We aren't flipping over Eldrazi Titans, we're flipping anthems at best. It pushes us towards the win, but so does Shambling vents. Have you ever read the card Pyroclasm? I linked it, so you could familiarize yourself. We absolutely fold to pyroclasm effects, and heights does absolutely nothing for us. This is a serious weakness of the deck. Aggro decks are incredibly popular right now, and that means people are packing sweepers. Heights is a good card for us, but it'll be good, and then it'll just be a plains.
Shambling vents dodges sorcery speed removal. Gives us game against aggro. Lets us swing and keep back a blocker to protect our walkers. It adds BW where Heights only adds W. Vents gives more options, more inevitability, and more access to life-gain effects. Man lands are popular for a reason, they opportunity cost so low, and the value you can get from them is so high.
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I find liliana of the veil fairly inconsistent. It is really better as a sideboard card because it often offers little to our gameplan. We often dont want to discard our hand and the sac ability is only relevant against decks we already do well against (except boggles).
Bitterblossom is just too slow for me and im never sure whether games where it displayed its dominance could have been won without them. I would rather add more midnight haunting (if bw) or spectral procession (if bwr). I would certainly consider another anthem for another 2 drop.
If you haven't felt the power of Liliana of the Veil then you should stop playing. There are cards we can throw away. Lingering Souls is a card we potentially can chunk if need be early game to get a T4 Flashback and Thoughtseize in as well as another discard from Lili. That's if the mana is slow. She ALLOWS us to be a bit lax on spot removal.
Bitterblossom / Liliana of the Veil shell should be used together. I've won a LOT of games with just those two cards and an Intangible Virtue on the field. The power of Bitterblossom comes from longevity. How long will it be on the field? Will my opponent rather blow up an anthem of mine, or the token generator itself. These are things my opponent has to decide on.
I'm sorry that you feel the way you do about Lili and BB.
It is not like i havent seen liliana take over games. But most cards in this deck are not worth sending to the graveyard. You want to full cast lingering soul and play thoughtseize most of the time. The scenarios you listed are fringe and biased at best. If you play 4 bitterblossom, then that is a better argument for a discard outlet since it is not good in multiples (yet another reason i dislike the card). Only time i would ever consider liliana would be in a control /combo heavy meta and if I started playing faithless looting. And even then Liliana loses a lot of value in bw token because there isnt a big fatty like goyf or scooze to protect her consistently.
Bitterblossom brings inevitability to the board and like you said, some insurance for anthems. But why not just play another hinor of the pure? Why put more inevitability in a deck that already surpasses other decks in the long game? This deck already wins the grindy games well which is why bitterblossom often feels win more. And there is nothing nore painful for me than to draw a bitterblossom late game and to realize i have 3 more deaddraws on the way.
BB doesnt improve our bad matchups. At least auriok champion improves our burn and twin matchups significantly to be worthy playing. Now we need cards that will improve our aggro matchups like zoo,elves, and merfolk. Like someone mentioned before, this deck needs more removal. 4 path and one other black removal isn't enough for this aggro oriented meta (also considering path has its drawbacks). That is why I splash red for bolt and there is universal consensus with the people i play that this is a very reasonable splash.
What this thread doesn't need is pointless bickering about anecdotal evidence. How about you both go test those cards out? Or post results? Or just go play magic.... At the end of the day Liliana has been a powerhouse almost since the beginning of modern and sees play in decks that don't even run Lingering souls. This gives the impression that she's less bad and more good. Being able to prepare for her by knowing that you'll be playing her breaks the symmetry without even trying, and since we are playing things we can flashback that makes her even better.
As far as BB goes, in every game I've played, I need something to do early in the game. For me that discard, and BB, and Raise the Alarm. I would never replace BB with Midnight Haunting because we already have so many 3 drops. That means that we're leaving ourselves open to the possibility of playing 1 spell/turn for turns 1-5. If we mix the CMC's up a bit, we can better ensure that we're being more efficient with our mana. The problem with putting more anthems in there is we also run the risk of becoming "Ooops...all anthems.dec." Having a mixture of individually powerful cards and synergistic interactions will make us stronger in the late game when we can have a strong board with synergy and also gives us the possibility of some strong cards when we're in topdeck mode.
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What this thread doesn't need is pointless bickering about anecdotal evidence. How about you both go test those cards out? Or post results? Or just go play magic.... At the end of the day Liliana has been a powerhouse almost since the beginning of modern and sees play in decks that don't even run Lingering souls. This gives the impression that she's less bad and more good. Being able to prepare for her by knowing that you'll be playing her breaks the symmetry without even trying, and since we are playing things we can flashback that makes her even better.
As far as BB goes, in every game I've played, I need something to do early in the game. For me that discard, and BB, and Raise the Alarm. I would never replace BB with Midnight Haunting because we already have so many 3 drops. That means that we're leaving ourselves open to the possibility of playing 1 spell/turn for turns 1-5. If we mix the CMC's up a bit, we can better ensure that we're being more efficient with our mana. The problem with putting more anthems in there is we also run the risk of becoming "Ooops...all anthems.dec." Having a mixture of individually powerful cards and synergistic interactions will make us stronger in the late game when we can have a strong board with synergy and also gives us the possibility of some strong cards when we're in topdeck mode.
Everything I say is based off of testing, and if it isn't, I specifically say I haven't tested it. Apart from your (false) assumptions, you need to make less logical fallacies:
1. You imply that the difference between 4 vs 4+ anthems is absolute. I've tested 5-7 anthems and based on empirical experience, the probability of being overloaded with anthems starts at 6-7. In fact, four often feels like it's not enough. It's a fallacy to state the risk of something without talking about things on an empirical or statistical level. That's like saying countries with low taxes should have high taxes based on the performance of high taxed countries without regarding that there is some level of middle ground.
2. An appeal to hype fallacy. No one here is arguing that Liliana is "bad" or that she isn't used in decks with lingering souls. It doesn't matter whether or not she's been used in legacy or vintage or whether the "pros" use her. What matters is testing results and logical analysis. Making an impression that "she is less bad more good" is pointless without them.
3. "Being able to prepare for her by knowing that you'll be playing her breaks the symmetry without even trying, and since we are playing things we can flashback that makes her even better. "
You mean I should warp my strategies based on a 3-of liliana that I may never draw into? That seems like an ingenious idea. And yeah that flashback synergy is amazing too (in the probability that we have BOTH a liliana and a lingering souls in hand and that we actually want to throw away 2 tokens for some flashback synergy... okay so never).
Your point about the 3-drop being crowded is a fair point. But based on testing, this deck needs at least 23 lands (safely 24) to cast our 3 drops consistently and on turn. Running less than 23 lands is way too risky and makes our planeswalkers much less usable. 3-drops are the most important drops and we need to cast it on turn.
Since this also increases our chance of overflooding on lands, we can counterbalance this weakness by running more 4-drops (and consequently more 3-drops) so that our top decks are good. What this deck needs to do is to stall when we don't have the optimal hand - a good balance of an anthem, token generators, discard, and removal. I like to treat the 1-2 mana drops as "stalls" basically. Bitterblossom doesn't fulfil that role as well as raise the alarm and it's too slow in the late game. That's the point where I wish I ran more 3-drops that can produce 2 tokens with haste after one turn rather than 1 token with haste after 2. That's a huge tempo difference. I only like bitterblossom given two conditions (1) in the right match-up and (2) when I draw it by turn 2. Conditions are rarely met so I don't main it.
How many Secure - I believe that the vast majority of Modern decks I've played against lately don't give us enough of a "late game" for Secure the Wastes (or Gideon ) to shine, so I will not be running any this weekend. The creatures other decks have also make the soldiers from Raise the Alarm seem weak unless Intangible Virtue is out, so I'm not playing them either. I will bet that Bitterblossom + removal + life-gain will work out.
Removal - I'm still very fearful of all the Wild Nacatl & Merfolk decks, so I am considering cutting the 3rd Sorin for another removal spell.
24 lands - I really don't want to miss any land drops. I've seen the discussion above about Windbrisk Heights vs. Shambling Vent. Vent didn't work out for me before, but now that I am going to run Dismembers in the main deck (mainly vs Twin), it would be nice to have extra B that doesn't hurt. Flipping an anthem off Heights is awesome... but having an extra way to gain life in a pinch sounds good too. You guys just might have convinced me to put a couple Vents back in.
I agree now that splashing red just for Crumble to Dust is not good. Having Lightning Bolt sounds good too, but I'd rather be able to fetch basics and protect my life total.
Thanks again everyone for all of your thoughts. I'm off to GP Pittsburgh tomorrow, hopefully in time to play a little that night. I'll do what I can with my 2 byes!
What this deck needs to do is to stall when we don't have the optimal hand - a good balance of an anthem, token generators, discard, and removal. I like to treat the 1-2 mana drops as "stalls" basically. Bitterblossom doesn't fulfil that role as well as raise the alarm and it's too slow in the late game.
BB fits the role of "stalling" pretty well in these scenarios, it produces blockers every turn and has the added benefit of being a one time mana investment. I agree that raise the alarm is also a good stalling card but it doesn't fit into the 75 of all BW tokens builds.
It has been discussed in this thread that there are at least two different core approaches to this deck: one that runs 3-4 BB and one that runs 3-4 additional white token generators. Both are viable builds but will change the composition of each deck's 75 accordingly. BB and Lili work really well together, whereas white token generators and honor of the pure pair up nicely. Auriok goes well everywhere right now... but that is besides the point.
So, after testing both types of BW tokens builds extensively I can say in a white token oriented build, jongsl5's statements and assessments hold water. They do not directly correlate with the BB/Lili oriented builds because the cards aren't the same.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
http://modernnexus.com/trevor-holmes-plays-mtgo-ep-8-bw-tokens/
No Sorins in this list. Liliana looked pretty good. He didn't draw any Gideons.
Shambling Vent looked very bad. You really don't want two in your deck.
4 Spectral Procession
4 Lingering Souls
4 Intangible Virtue
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Timely Reinforcements
3 Bitterblossom
2 Raise the Alarm
1 Secure the Wastes
All around cool-guy
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
Disruption
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
3 Path to Exile
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Murderous Cut
1 Smother
4 Godless Shrine
3 Windbrisk Heights
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Fetid Heath
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Windswept Heath
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Auriok Champion
2 Sundering Growth
1 Hour of Reckoning
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Path to Exile
1 Smother
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Utter End
3 Stony Silence
This list puts me at
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Round 1: Grixis Twin
I keep a hand of Path, Intangible Virtue, BB, 2 land and a Spectral Procession.
This game doesn't last too long. I see serum visions and a Vendillion Clique. I draw another path and a Sorin, I slow play with 1 mana always open for a path, and I finish him off after I path both his clique and a pestermite. 1-0
Game 2 I have a decent hand, with one path, still no discard. He baits my path with a olivia voldaren, and lands the combo next turn. Oh well game 3. 1-1
Game 3: Very grindy, I finally see my discard package, and see 2 I.O.K and both my Duress. My brave the elements saves me from an anger of the gods, and my shambling vents helped extremely throughout this match up. I attacked several times from a clear board to get in some damage. I finish him with an end of turn raise the alarm followed by a top deck Intangible next turn with no answer. 2-1
Round 2: G/R Tron.
Game 1: I come out of the gates firing, t1 Fetch, shock, Thoughtseize, yes I did that lol early raise the alarm and intangible gets him to 8 after a few turns with me lethal on board with my zealous persecution in my hand. He top decks the lucky tron piece he needed and plays his only creature, Emrakul and then I lose. 0-1
Game 2 I see Stony silence which was great as well as pithing needle but it still wasn't enough. He karns away my pithing needle to free up his ugin next turn, wipes my boards and permanents , then reveals the tutor land and then I scoop because I'm cardless. 0-2 1-1
Round 3: Living End
Game 1: I apply early pressure with my raise, bb, and spectral. I needed a sorin and/or a intangible to win. I keep top decking lands or things NOT what I need. Living end for a huge crap ton of creatures and takes it. 0-1
Game 2: I Stall out on 3 land with Hero of bladehold and sorin in hand, ive seen 2 fulminator mages to keep me off of black source and any 4 drop. I see some discard but once i see it the second time i see 3 cascade spells, and 2 jund charm. I scoop, because im frustrated about the land stuff, and 4 useless cards in my hand. I reveal the top 5 for craps and giggles and no lands. Just one of those days. 0-2. 1-2
Then I play edh with someone, stomp him all 4 games and feel better.
I picked up 2 hallowed moonlight for my sideboard, and Im considering to bring back in my tidehollow sculler.
Also considering ethersworn canonist or eidolon of rhetoric against my 2 loss decks. Multiple turns both of these decks can go bonkers with multiple spells in a single turn.
Launch the fleet seems fun honestly.
Also considering a mainboard draw spell. I just want more to do. I just need to see cards that matter, and it's frustrating when you sideboard cards but don't seem any of them in certain games.
Shambling vent isn't going anywhere in my list. I was never sad to see it, and I used it multiple times. I will definitely agree that it isn't for every meta thats for sure.
I'm not sure if I miss Liliana of the Veil yet I'll need to go to more tournaments to figure it out. I'm keeping her just in case.
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
Honestly, I think that Vents has a place in this deck for this reason. As much as we can play Forge-Tenders and what not, we still get our ***** rocked by Pyroclasm effects. I'm going to be testing a couple in my list soon. The opportunity cost for manlands is so low, generally, that it's almost always correct to have some.
This actually made me laugh out loud.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Thursday R1: Lose to GR tron 2-0
G1:He has t3 tron via Expedition Map into Karn + Ugin... Enough said
G2: Board into Ghost Quarter + Surgical Extraction... Mulled to 6, don't see either, and my discard does not slow him down enough to get to Tron and Ugin me out.
R2: Beat Restore Balance 2-0
Even when they cascade into the namesake spell, they're way slower than us, and Bitterblossom by t4 generated enough pressure both games.
R3: Beat Jund 2-1
G1, he wins with a fast start of t1 discard, t2 goyf, t3 abrupt decay on my Bitterblossom. Games 2&3, I side out most of my discard, side in Rest in Peace, and grind him out very well.
R4: Beat Abzan Aggro 2-1
I took advantage of a number of mistakes from my opponent to win. Zealous Persecution sure makes my Lingering Souls tokens happy and his sad.
Friday R1: Beat Ad Nauseum 2-0
He mulled to oblivion both games.
R2: Lost to Merfolk 1-2
He mulled to nothing g1. This might, my 75 didn't have many individual removal spells, so it was really hard to race this deck, and I lost g2&g3.
R3: Lost to Abzan CoCo (no combo) 0-2
Even without infinite combos, I got rekt by CoCo into Goyf + Eternal Witness, getting back CoCo, repeat.
R4: Lost to Merfolk again 0-2
Same story as R2.
After those 8 rounds, I decided that Secure the Wastes & Raise the Alarm were not good for me. They don't fly, so Abzan & Merfolk can block them, and they themselves don't block well without an anthem. I also decided against the GQ + Surgical Extraction plan because it was taking up too many spots in the 75, and opted for Vault of the Archangel.
Sunday IQ R1: Beat Merfolk 2-1
Spectral Procession immediately proves its worth again. I'm able to race him well in g1&g3 thanks to that, Bitterblossom, Vault gaining life, and Murderous Cut'ing a Lord.
R2: Tied Abzan 1-1-1
I *hate* to ever tie. I win g1 fast, but in g2, I keep top decking creatures to block his, all while drawing multiple Rest in Peaces from the sb to lower his clock. I have the kill in g3 if I had 1 more turn.
R3: Beat Merfolk 2-1
I was really happy to beat Merfolk again after my previous failures. Again, having extra cheap removal spells was key, as was gaining 12 life with Vault the turn before he thought he could win.
R4: Lost to Elves 0-999999
He nut drew me both games by dumping a lot of Elves on the first 3 turns. Zealous Persecution wouldn't have helped after he dropped an Elvish Archdruid to give the squad +1/+1.
R5: Lost to Grixis Twin 1-2
I make top 8 if I win this. Game 1, he Remands me about 20 times, and wins via new Jace & Tasigur. I board like he is on Twin anyway, which I'm right about. He mulls in g2, and doesn't assemble the combo to win fast enough. G3, he mulls to 5, but beats me after I make him discard Twin, 2 pestermites, but top deck Remands me 3 times again, so I have no pressure, and after wasting my 1 removal spell on Tasigur in an attempt to race, he twins me out. Tough way to lose
Sorry for the long post, but here's my TL;DR summary:
- Secure the Wastes was not good in any of these matchups. It shouldn't be in the 75 IMO.
- We need *at least* 7 removal spells in the 75 for Merfolk and related matchups.
- Vault of the Archangel is worthy enough to be a 2-of.
- I want to try splashing Red for Crumble to Dust for Tron, and Radiant Flames for Elves and any deck with mana creatures.
I'll let you guys know if I notice a difference.
-Anonymous
Honestly that write up is awesome. I have some questions/comments for you:
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
GU Infect | x Affinity | RWG Naya Burn | W Death and Taxes | U Merfolk | BURG BTL Scapeshift | WUUW Titan | R Goblins | BURGW Suicide Zoo
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Gideon was amazing vs Jund. Just a huge threat.
Often you are left in a situation to stall and that is where Gideon really shines, along with raise the alarm.like other have mentioned, Gideon sometimes steal games that were otherwise impossible. I think it is a mistake to run less than 2. Making 2/2 token each turn is huge, regardless of whether it is grounded when you take into account anthems. I run 3 Sorin because like I said, you need a full board to abuse it. If i ran bitterblossom, then maybe 4.
I splash red and I have to saying adding bolt makes the aggro and control matchups so much easier. I was thinking of running a 3 path, 4 bolt, and one murderous cut package. Along with discard, this deck plays much more defensively than bw.
Crumble to dust is too slow for Tron. I honestly think the best approach is to add fulminator mages, raise the alarm, rest in peace, and focus on bolting.
I completely disagree with this. Heights also filters good draws away, and locks some of our most important cards away. It frightens our opponent to the extent that no one card we are playing is very impactful. None. We aren't flipping over Eldrazi Titans, we're flipping anthems at best. It pushes us towards the win, but so does Shambling vents. Have you ever read the card Pyroclasm? I linked it, so you could familiarize yourself. We absolutely fold to pyroclasm effects, and heights does absolutely nothing for us. This is a serious weakness of the deck. Aggro decks are incredibly popular right now, and that means people are packing sweepers. Heights is a good card for us, but it'll be good, and then it'll just be a plains.
Shambling vents dodges sorcery speed removal. Gives us game against aggro. Lets us swing and keep back a blocker to protect our walkers. It adds BW where Heights only adds W. Vents gives more options, more inevitability, and more access to life-gain effects. Man lands are popular for a reason, they opportunity cost so low, and the value you can get from them is so high.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Bitterblossom is just too slow for me and im never sure whether games where it displayed its dominance could have been won without them. I would rather add more midnight haunting (if bw) or spectral procession (if bwr). I would certainly consider another anthem for another 2 drop.
Bitterblossom / Liliana of the Veil shell should be used together. I've won a LOT of games with just those two cards and an Intangible Virtue on the field. The power of Bitterblossom comes from longevity. How long will it be on the field? Will my opponent rather blow up an anthem of mine, or the token generator itself. These are things my opponent has to decide on.
I'm sorry that you feel the way you do about Lili and BB.
It is not like i havent seen liliana take over games. But most cards in this deck are not worth sending to the graveyard. You want to full cast lingering soul and play thoughtseize most of the time. The scenarios you listed are fringe and biased at best. If you play 4 bitterblossom, then that is a better argument for a discard outlet since it is not good in multiples (yet another reason i dislike the card). Only time i would ever consider liliana would be in a control /combo heavy meta and if I started playing faithless looting. And even then Liliana loses a lot of value in bw token because there isnt a big fatty like goyf or scooze to protect her consistently.
Bitterblossom brings inevitability to the board and like you said, some insurance for anthems. But why not just play another hinor of the pure? Why put more inevitability in a deck that already surpasses other decks in the long game? This deck already wins the grindy games well which is why bitterblossom often feels win more. And there is nothing nore painful for me than to draw a bitterblossom late game and to realize i have 3 more deaddraws on the way.
BB doesnt improve our bad matchups. At least auriok champion improves our burn and twin matchups significantly to be worthy playing. Now we need cards that will improve our aggro matchups like zoo,elves, and merfolk. Like someone mentioned before, this deck needs more removal. 4 path and one other black removal isn't enough for this aggro oriented meta (also considering path has its drawbacks). That is why I splash red for bolt and there is universal consensus with the people i play that this is a very reasonable splash.
As far as BB goes, in every game I've played, I need something to do early in the game. For me that discard, and BB, and Raise the Alarm. I would never replace BB with Midnight Haunting because we already have so many 3 drops. That means that we're leaving ourselves open to the possibility of playing 1 spell/turn for turns 1-5. If we mix the CMC's up a bit, we can better ensure that we're being more efficient with our mana. The problem with putting more anthems in there is we also run the risk of becoming "Ooops...all anthems.dec." Having a mixture of individually powerful cards and synergistic interactions will make us stronger in the late game when we can have a strong board with synergy and also gives us the possibility of some strong cards when we're in topdeck mode.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Everything I say is based off of testing, and if it isn't, I specifically say I haven't tested it. Apart from your (false) assumptions, you need to make less logical fallacies:
1. You imply that the difference between 4 vs 4+ anthems is absolute. I've tested 5-7 anthems and based on empirical experience, the probability of being overloaded with anthems starts at 6-7. In fact, four often feels like it's not enough. It's a fallacy to state the risk of something without talking about things on an empirical or statistical level. That's like saying countries with low taxes should have high taxes based on the performance of high taxed countries without regarding that there is some level of middle ground.
2. An appeal to hype fallacy. No one here is arguing that Liliana is "bad" or that she isn't used in decks with lingering souls. It doesn't matter whether or not she's been used in legacy or vintage or whether the "pros" use her. What matters is testing results and logical analysis. Making an impression that "she is less bad more good" is pointless without them.
3. "Being able to prepare for her by knowing that you'll be playing her breaks the symmetry without even trying, and since we are playing things we can flashback that makes her even better. "
You mean I should warp my strategies based on a 3-of liliana that I may never draw into? That seems like an ingenious idea. And yeah that flashback synergy is amazing too (in the probability that we have BOTH a liliana and a lingering souls in hand and that we actually want to throw away 2 tokens for some flashback synergy... okay so never).
Your point about the 3-drop being crowded is a fair point. But based on testing, this deck needs at least 23 lands (safely 24) to cast our 3 drops consistently and on turn. Running less than 23 lands is way too risky and makes our planeswalkers much less usable. 3-drops are the most important drops and we need to cast it on turn.
Since this also increases our chance of overflooding on lands, we can counterbalance this weakness by running more 4-drops (and consequently more 3-drops) so that our top decks are good. What this deck needs to do is to stall when we don't have the optimal hand - a good balance of an anthem, token generators, discard, and removal. I like to treat the 1-2 mana drops as "stalls" basically. Bitterblossom doesn't fulfil that role as well as raise the alarm and it's too slow in the late game. That's the point where I wish I ran more 3-drops that can produce 2 tokens with haste after one turn rather than 1 token with haste after 2. That's a huge tempo difference. I only like bitterblossom given two conditions (1) in the right match-up and (2) when I draw it by turn 2. Conditions are rarely met so I don't main it.
4 Godless Shrine
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
1 Isolated Chapel
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Fetid Heath
2 Vault of the Archangel
3 Windbrisk Heights
Dudes:
4 Bitterblossom
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Path to Exile
2 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
Pump:
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Rest in Peace
3 Duress
2 Disenchant
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Go for the Throat
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
How many Secure - I believe that the vast majority of Modern decks I've played against lately don't give us enough of a "late game" for Secure the Wastes (or Gideon ) to shine, so I will not be running any this weekend. The creatures other decks have also make the soldiers from Raise the Alarm seem weak unless Intangible Virtue is out, so I'm not playing them either. I will bet that Bitterblossom + removal + life-gain will work out.
Removal - I'm still very fearful of all the Wild Nacatl & Merfolk decks, so I am considering cutting the 3rd Sorin for another removal spell.
24 lands - I really don't want to miss any land drops. I've seen the discussion above about Windbrisk Heights vs. Shambling Vent. Vent didn't work out for me before, but now that I am going to run Dismembers in the main deck (mainly vs Twin), it would be nice to have extra B that doesn't hurt. Flipping an anthem off Heights is awesome... but having an extra way to gain life in a pinch sounds good too. You guys just might have convinced me to put a couple Vents back in.
I agree now that splashing red just for Crumble to Dust is not good. Having Lightning Bolt sounds good too, but I'd rather be able to fetch basics and protect my life total.
Thanks again everyone for all of your thoughts. I'm off to GP Pittsburgh tomorrow, hopefully in time to play a little that night. I'll do what I can with my 2 byes!
BB fits the role of "stalling" pretty well in these scenarios, it produces blockers every turn and has the added benefit of being a one time mana investment. I agree that raise the alarm is also a good stalling card but it doesn't fit into the 75 of all BW tokens builds.
It has been discussed in this thread that there are at least two different core approaches to this deck: one that runs 3-4 BB and one that runs 3-4 additional white token generators. Both are viable builds but will change the composition of each deck's 75 accordingly. BB and Lili work really well together, whereas white token generators and honor of the pure pair up nicely. Auriok goes well everywhere right now... but that is besides the point.
So, after testing both types of BW tokens builds extensively I can say in a white token oriented build, jongsl5's statements and assessments hold water. They do not directly correlate with the BB/Lili oriented builds because the cards aren't the same.
my list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bw-tokens-vs-the-world/
BW Eldrazi - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bw-eldrazi-proc/
U Merfolk - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/fishmode/