MTG Salvation

Smother hits 95% of Merfolk, 95% of Affinity, Goyf, Snapcaster, Clique, Anafenza, Exarch, Pestermite, 95% of Elves, Everything in Burn, 95%+ of Soul Sisters, Delver/Aberration, Abbot, Bob, Ooze, 100% of Infect, 95-100% of the Mirror, etc

Besides Tron variants I don't think there's a deck that it's not good against honestly.

I like Champion, but I need to try Timely more. One thing I have seen happen not infrequently is that its value was super dependent on the board state and drawing into one late game was not good unless I was really down on life.

Champion is value though against burn. Basically, if you drop one you almost can't lose. It makes their creature cards that much worse in the race.

I agree with Smother. I think it's a solid removal right now. We already don't have a ton of game against tron. I think the only other card that fights for a slot with it is Dismember, and maybe Murderous Cut.

Dismember: More versatility in that it's faster. Do we NEED to be killing something on t1? More chance of life loss, hurting us against aggro/burn. Will just not hit some things (eg. Tarmogoyfs when we're playing bitterblossom).
Murderous Cut: Hits everything, nothing fights with Cut for graveyard space. Slow, we don't fill the yard very fast. Really, really slow.
Smother: won't be getting played t1, fights for 2-drop slots in our deck, which sucks. Hits almost everything: not Tasigur, Wurmcoil, etc.

Has anyone been trying Urborg? I've been running it, and it's nuts. Really smooths out the mana base (helps Isolated Chapel), and stops us from losing so much life off of fetch lands. I don't seen any lists playing it, and I think it deserves a slot as a 1-off.

Yeah I keep forgetting to add an Urborg. Might cut a Windbrisk for it as 3 seems heavy a lot of the time.

Honestly, i'm not in love with Windbrisk at all. i keep playing it (in a Polymorph/Emrakul build), but any time I'm casting an anthem effect off of it, it feels lackluster.

Quote from Phone »

Honestly, i'm not in love with Windbrisk at all. i keep playing it (in a Polymorph/Emrakul build), but any time I'm casting an anthem effect off of it, it feels lackluster.

Yeah, I might even cut it completely, stick a pair of Caves in or something, improve the mana, lose the couple times where it is helpful.

I wouldn't cut the Windbrisks entirely. They still provide good card advantage and cast stuff at instant speed or a reduced cost is nice. I'd not feel comfortable going below 2 copies. I might cut my 4th for an Urborg as that actually does seem like a good idea.

I don't run Urborg and I have no issues with color fixing my mana.

Windbrisk Heights is free card draw after you "scry" 4. The anthem effects instant speed can flat out win games. Plus, it plays a mind game with your opponent: they waste removal on a 1/1 spirit to prevent an activation. Sometimes they tap out on the wrong thing allowing us to cast a better spell with the saved mana late game. Honestly, if you are losing games "because" of heights, you were probably going to lose that game anyway. It also makes tokens a turn or two faster at instant speed, which is something we really need against unfair decks. I feel like that benefit outweighs the cost of it ETB tapped.

Quote from michaelvogler »

I don't run Urborg and I have no issues with color fixing my mana.

Windbrisk Heights is free card draw after you "scry" 4. The anthem effects instant speed can flat out win games. Plus, it plays a mind game with your opponent: they waste removal on a 1/1 spirit to prevent an activation. Sometimes they tap out on the wrong thing allowing us to cast a better spell with the saved mana late game. Honestly, if you are losing games "because" of heights, you were probably going to lose that game anyway. It also makes tokens a turn or two faster at instant speed, which is something we really need against unfair decks. I feel like that benefit outweighs the cost of it ETB tapped.

I agree with this, and the only thing I have to add, however obvious, is that timing is key when playing Heights, as well as knowing what you need when you decide to play it. Since it thins out the deck by sending 3 out of 4 cards to the bottom and letting you save one of em, it can either really help you, get in your way a bit, or screw you over. In a sense, I guess knowing how to really maximize its usage is knowing the chances of drawing whatever you need, and whether or not you can take a risk in picking one outta your next four draws and then waiting an extra turn to play said card.

For me, I have had some facepalm moments using Heights, especially when I've run dry on token producers. I play it, see my top four, and immediately sigh when I see that my next two or three cards outta the four were token producers. Nothing beats being able to flash in an anthem last second, however.

The discussion in this forum seems to have degenerated a little bit. People should NOT be talking about budget lists, asking for help on your deck really doesn't do anything unless you give a detailed analysis of your meta and post sincere thoughtful questions as opposed to just "thoughts?" Also it's really not helpful to new players to come to the most recent page of the forum and see really jank/budget lists. We are trying to make our deck the best we can here, there are sightly different approaches but we want to strive to find the best and give each other constructive criticism. Our deck wins with a seriously targeted SB; most of us have established that. I have about 24 cards I have prepared to put in for any events.

Also you should read through a lot of pages before you make a suggestion. Odds are most things have been discussed. Suggesting things such as cut spectral procession or Windbrisk Heights is so counter productive to the discussion. Windbrisk is our only "unfair" card advantage. I get people toying with splashes and I encourage playing around, but don't confuse new players please!!! None of the splash lists I've seen yet have convinced me at all, I don't want to sacrifice a comfy landbase for 1 or 2 alright spells that don't even beat tron for me. The reason our deck is so powerful is because it's so efficient and simple. We capitalize on spells that create multiple creatures and buff them with Intangible Virtue (Vigilance being so damn key) We are in some of the best sideboard colors that can potentially just ***** on people.

It seems the general consensus right now is that our toughest t1 matchups are Tron and Merfolk. Loading up your ass with 1B discard spells (I'm sideing 3 duress myself) seems like the best way to handle tron right now, but is by no means ideal. I still lose probably just over 50%. Beating Merfolk is just luck right now it seems. Burn is very beatable with Aurioks, if you're in a burn heavy meta perhaps roll the Raises instead of the BBs. I haven't had any problems with Abzan.

We need more thoughtful posts about how t1/t2 and emerging decks play out in competitive games! I'll really work on serious testing more myself. People proxy cards if you don't have them, Liliana of the Veil is so effective; Gideon has tested like a champ for me so far. Sorin is undeniable. Play your Aurioks! I really think our deck is much much more powerful then people give it credit for. We've got some seriously good new goodies recently - and who knows what's coming.

Thanks guys

For the people using Gideon how frequently do you use each of his abilities?
Do you always just pump out a token or attack with him?
How often do you cash him in as a 4 mana indestructible anthem effect?

Quote from gibbousm »

For the people using Gideon how frequently do you use each of his abilities?

Gideon seems to round out my 4-drop slot of 3 Sorin & 2 Gideon perfectly in my testing so far. He plays similar to Sorin, but has the advantage of being much more powerful when needing to rebuild your token presence after a token producing spell gets counterspelled, your ***** gets wiped or you have to trade your board. Sorin is better as a win-now-alpha-lifelink-gameswing-card ontop of an army of spectral procession/lingering/BB tokens but kind of lacks when you don't have much token presence. Gideon seems fits that bill perfectly being able to ***** out tokens at little to no risk and also be a potent as hell indestructible anthem. I used to play 2 Heros in his slot but am liking how Gideon can make a token right when I put him down way better. Hero is still a fantastic card though, it's never to far from my sideboard.

To answer your question, he generally will be an indestructible anthem when played akin to a Sorin, but shines so much brighter when you're starving on tokens - which actually can happen a lot. He can change a game by himself by just making 2/2 tokens until you can cast another token producer or simply have enough tokens to profitably pop his ultimate and swing for win. His rarest mode seems to be his creature (in my meta at least). But he swings profitably through rhinos/tasigurs and other baddies when you can't profitably swing with your tokens because you have no vigilance which can be nice to start a clock; but generally making more tokens is better.

t1 discard > t2 BB > t3 lingering > t4 Gideon pop for anthem isn't bad at all.

I think the problem with Urborg is that it gives your opponent too much benefit, too. We're primarily a white based deck that splashes black. Yes, we need T1 black for Inquisition/Thoughseize and possible T2 Bitterblossom. We also need 1BB for Liliana (which Fetid Heath is a good option for). But we also need WWW for Spectral Processions, 2W for Lingering Souls, and WW for Auriok Champion.

I'd rather not drop Urborg and turn on my opponents spells, to be completely honest. But I haven't tested it, so maybe it isn't as bad as I think.

How do we deal with these hyper aggressive Zoo lists that have recently popped up? Discard only does so much. Merfolk and Elves are already pretty poor matchups and these aggressive Zoo lists are probably poor as well.

Quote from dreamcaster »

I think the problem with Urborg is that it gives your opponent too much benefit, too.

I agree with this completely. I honestly wanted to run it for the longest time because I had a beautiful mint condition planar chaos one, but ultimately came to the conclusion we didn't need the extra black, and even though the land wasn't hurting us, it was helping our opponents to, which doesn't feel good when it's not benefiting you. Fetid Heaths are good.

Quote from dreamcaster »

How do we deal with these hyper aggressive Zoo lists that have recently popped up? Discard only does so much. Merfolk and Elves are already pretty poor match ups and these aggressive Zoo lists are probably poor as well.

I only have moderate testing against Merfolk, which has really seem to always come down to luck. Literally no testing against Comapany Elves as I haven't even seen it yet, but some experience with zoo. It actually isn't as bad as you'd think if you can establish early blockers. Right now I'm on 2/2 Raise/BB split (Wanting to up a BB but love raise) and in these kind of match ups raise the alarm is very good. The bolts can be a pain in the ass taking out Plainswalkers but our man Gideon fights them pretty well. For fast match ups like these I would generally side in my 2 zealous persecutions in the board for game 2, even if its only going to work once as a surprise trick I can take them out if I think my opponent won't play into them again. Smother seems like an alright choice for these kind of match ups although I haven't played with it, we just need to survive until we can start casting our spectrals/lingerings and Plainswalkers. Aurioks can do work.

Quote from DHamlin »

Quote from Phone »

Honestly, i'm not in love with Windbrisk at all. i keep playing it (in a Polymorph/Emrakul build), but any time I'm casting an anthem effect off of it, it feels lackluster.

Yeah, I might even cut it completely, stick a pair of Caves in or something, improve the mana, lose the couple times where it is helpful.

Quote from gibbousm »

I wouldn't cut the Windbrisks entirely. They still provide good card advantage and cast stuff at instant speed or a reduced cost is nice. I'd not feel comfortable going below 2 copies. I might cut my 4th for an Urborg as that actually does seem like a good idea.

I would agree with gibbousm. I don't think cutting them entirely is the thing. I'm going down to 3.

Quote from michaelvogler »

I don't run Urborg and I have no issues with color fixing my mana.

Windbrisk Heights is free card draw after you "scry" 4. The anthem effects instant speed can flat out win games. Plus, it plays a mind game with your opponent: they waste removal on a 1/1 spirit to prevent an activation. Sometimes they tap out on the wrong thing allowing us to cast a better spell with the saved mana late game. Honestly, if you are losing games "because" of heights, you were probably going to lose that game anyway. It also makes tokens a turn or two faster at instant speed, which is something we really need against unfair decks. I feel like that benefit outweighs the cost of it ETB tapped.

That's a fair point about Heights. I'm never losing because of them, but they feel awkward, and unwieldy. I don't see them being much better than "draw a card. at some point...down the line." I don't think that they're bad enough to cut, and they're actively good enough to keep around, but I don't think the number is 4.

Quote from Anchorls »

The discussion in this forum seems to have degenerated a little bit. People should NOT be talking about budget lists, asking for help on your deck really doesn't do anything unless you give a detailed analysis of your meta and post sincere thoughtful questions as opposed to just "thoughts?" Also it's really not helpful to new players to come to the most recent page of the forum and see really jank/budget lists. We are trying to make our deck the best we can here, there are sightly different approaches but we want to strive to find the best and give each other constructive criticism. Our deck wins with a seriously targeted SB; most of us have established that. I have about 24 cards I have prepared to put in for any events.

Also you should read through a lot of pages before you make a suggestion. Odds are most things have been discussed. Suggesting things such as cut spectral procession or Windbrisk Heights is so counter productive to the discussion. Windbrisk is our only "unfair" card advantage. I get people toying with splashes and I encourage playing around, but don't confuse new players please!!! None of the splash lists I've seen yet have convinced me at all, I don't want to sacrifice a comfy landbase for 1 or 2 alright spells that don't even beat tron for me. The reason our deck is so powerful is because it's so efficient and simple. We capitalize on spells that create multiple creatures and buff them with Intangible Virtue (Vigilance being so damn key) We are in some of the best sideboard colors that can potentially just ***** on people.

It seems the general consensus right now is that our toughest t1 matchups are Tron and Merfolk. Loading up your ass with 1B discard spells (I'm sideing 3 duress myself) seems like the best way to handle tron right now, but is by no means ideal. I still lose probably just over 50%. Beating Merfolk is just luck right now it seems. Burn is very beatable with Aurioks, if you're in a burn heavy meta perhaps roll the Raises instead of the BBs. I haven't had any problems with Abzan.

We need more thoughtful posts about how t1/t2 and emerging decks play out in competitive games! I'll really work on serious testing more myself. People proxy cards if you don't have them, Liliana of the Veil is so effective; Gideon has tested like a champ for me so far. Sorin is undeniable. Play your Aurioks! I really think our deck is much much more powerful then people give it credit for. We've got some seriously good new goodies recently - and who knows what's coming.

Thanks guys

I have to agree with a lot of what you say. I think you raise a good point. When I see tier 1 discussion threads, it's about how to play the deck the best, sideboarding for other matches, or tournament results. I think most other threads have this problem, but I think BW Tokens is a little better than most I've seen.

I don't think you give enough merit to people who are new though. Are new players not allowed to ask questions? If so, are mediocre players not allowed to ask questions too? I think that it's really relative, and that everyone's bad to someone. As long as people are searching the thread beforehand, and doing their homework, every question/suggestion has merit. Everyone should be able to say their piece.

Quote from dreamcaster »

I think the problem with Urborg is that it gives your opponent too much benefit, too. We're primarily a white based deck that splashes black. Yes, we need T1 black for Inquisition/Thoughseize and possible T2 Bitterblossom. We also need 1BB for Liliana (which Fetid Heath is a good option for). But we also need WWW for Spectral Processions, 2W for Lingering Souls, and WW for Auriok Champion.

I'd rather not drop Urborg and turn on my opponents spells, to be completely honest. But I haven't tested it, so maybe it isn't as bad as I think.

How do we deal with these hyper aggressive Zoo lists that have recently popped up? Discard only does so much. Merfolk and Elves are already pretty poor matchups and these aggressive Zoo lists are probably poor as well.

I see most lists are running a little more than just a splash. Bitterblossom, Lilian, Sorin, Murderous Cut, Dismember, Lingering Souls, 6-8 Discard spells isn't what I'd call a splash, and the fact that we're stretching for WWW on t3 doesn't mean that we're not also hungry for B. A lot of B/x/x decks are out there, but you're not a robot. You can decide when not to drop Urborg, but you'll always have that option if you need it. turning all your fetches into B isn't nothing against burn.

As for Zoo, I don't find them to be that bad and I'm not actually running Auriok Champions main. I think we could move those into the main if and when the meta calls for it, and add 1-2 Honor of the Pure to wall up.

Also what's different in this thread vs others is usually there are at least 1 or 2 "heads of the thread" that will address every question and comment in the thread. Iin this thread, everyone posts what they want, answers what they want, and there are many people who just get completely ignored because their questions aren't good enough to catch someone's attention, which deters newbies from feeling welcomed.
I get that it's aggravating to keep answering the same questions over and over again but after the thread goes to almost 150 pages... you should expect some questions to be asked over and over again.


Different topic...
Does everyone realize the primer at the beginning? It's extremely extensive and if you haven't read it I think you should. I can't believe it took me until 2 days ago to see it and read it!!!

Yep the Primer is good, though it is very out of date in some sections. Still discusses the Pod, and TC metas last I checked.

The number of heights definitely needs to be less than 4. You might want 2-3 at most. You really don't want multiples in a game. I agree.

On the discussion "degenerating:"
I don't think the discussion is degenerating so much as people like the deck and want to improve it beyond what it really is: an aggro swarm deck. We have a bunch of folks who are desperate to improve the deck for a variety of reasons, some of which can be budget. That, in and of itself, is not bad. What is bad is that we need to recognize that as a strategy, tokens shines in some environments and not others. Without substantially altering the build (and thus the archetype of the deck), we won't change that.

That is where the sideboard comes in. Like an earlier posting, I have a board of 20+ cards that I interchange depending upon the expected meta. There are a few that I never change out. We have a limited number of cards for those slots because of the format. Identifying what cards work best for our worst match ups and getting data on ideas should be key. There are a few stock cards and a lot of flexibility. Depending upon meta, some of those cards work their way into our main deck.

And Tier 1 and 2 forums do talk about cards and builds. The difference is that there are fewer variants and more focus on what works and what doesn't. They rely on data to make decisions about the direction of the format and how to build. We aren't doing that as much. Probably because we don't have as many players.

So a friend of mine and I were discussing sideboard tech for Twin and came up with batwing brume as good. I don't want to board it in just for the twin matchup though and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this in the Merfolk matchup.

For twin I've been running ghostly prison and celestial purge. It depends a bit on what they're killing me with, because pestermites die to persecution.