You aren't a bad player Cavalry: running creatures main isn't bad, it just gives them targets for removal. It can be good, especially if you have powerful drops later game.
Theory is great and all, but I think we need to also return to the fundamentals of the page: results. What did you run and what were your results with the deck?
This is my current build; I should run Marsh Flats of course but I am waiting for a reprint after KTK fetches cycle. Fetid Heath instead of Orzhov Basilica would be better probably and there is an arguement for more fetches with a Murderous Cut. Gather the Townsfolk would be the first to go but I like having more two drops because Remand, and in my experience Fateful Hour is quite relevant.
This is my current build; I should run Marsh Flats of course but I am waiting for a reprint after KTK fetches cycle. Fetid Heath instead of Orzhov Basilica would be better probably and there is an arguement for more fetches with a Murderous Cut. Gather the Townsfolk would be the first to go but I like having more two drops because Remand, and in my experience Fateful Hour is quite relevant.
Why not run Timely Reinforcements instead of Gather the Townsfolk. It can be played for good value at MANY points in a game and helps gain you a ton of life and 3 dudes.
Hey guys, I've made a list of matchups, and please rate each them as good, slightly good, slightly bad, or terrible. This will help our sideboard plans, and also be a good info for new people on this deck, and last it will help determine if splashing R or G actually helps against the close matchups, vs just being better against good matchups.
Burn (Atarka)
Merfolk
Zoo
Elves
Affinity
Infect
Bogles
Abzan CoCo
Soul Sisters
D&T
Abzan Liege
Hatebears
Abzan Ally/Aristocrats
Classic Abzan (Junk)
Jund
U/R Delver
Grixis Delver
Temur Delver
Grixis Control
UW Control
UWR Control
UWR Geist
Faeries
U/R Twin
Grixis Twin
Temur Twin
Scapeshift
Scapeshift w/ Through the Breach
Living End
Ad Nauseum
Amulet Bloom
Grishoalbrand
G/R Tron
Mono-U Tron
I don't know what I've left out. Obviously some of these are not big in every meta but some stores have weird stuff, like my store has two guys that play Abzan Ally/Aristocrats decks so I included it.
If you guys post here, I will summarize all the answers. Please answer based on the core WB deck, not splashes, with the full 4 Souls, 4 Spectral, 4 Bitterblossom, and 4+ anthems.
Well one's sideboard can determine how a match will go as well, are you just asking how game 1 is against each deck?
So my thoughts on the "hero" slot are this: IMO I think the 4 drop slot is better suited for a planeswalker, namely Gideon, Ally of Zendikar (or similar). I tested Hero extensively, the main problem is that she is an absolute lightening rod for removal... in testing she is wiped out 3/4 times within a turn and was rarely able to contribute... If you untap then you are going to win but in that situation she feels more "win more" than utility. Hence the argument for a planeswalker here... Gideon gives you much more utility in a variety of boardstates over hero. He is difficult for opponents to deal with as is and provides a must answer threat that is immune to large chunks of removal plus you can use his +0 or -4 immediately and, worst case provides a blocker or permanent anthem. Also planeswalkers in general tend to provide a life buffer when oppenents swing into them vs your life total... Overall plansewalkers provide significantly more utility in the 4-drop slot.
New Gideon hasn't put up results that I have seen yet. I'm reluctant to spend so much money on him at this point. I have two Liliana in that slot that I will keep for now. Liliana in the deck has put up results.
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Modern GU Infect | x Affinity | RWG Naya Burn | W Death and Taxes | U Merfolk | BURG BTL Scapeshift | WUUW Titan | R Goblins | BURGW Suicide Zoo
Since when is Bitterblossom a core card? I'll agree Souls/Procession are core.
I think Bitterblossom has become a core card in the past couple weeks. Many decks I have seen do well include them.
It's been core since January when the European team was running four at PT Fate Reforged. Flash forward to two months ago when Eric Froelich and Shahar Shenhar ran four in their build at Worlds. I'm seriously dumbfounded as to why folks think it is a recent phenomenon. You run three Sorin, two Vault of the Archangel, and several Timely Reinforcements to help with your life. You don't fetch up shocklands after the first because you really only need Plains unless you're running Liliana. Bitterblossom is so strong that it ends up winning you the game before the life loss matters or the tokens are able to block so many Goyfs that the one life a turn is a much better deal than the damage you would be taking from opposing creatures.
This thread is a broken record. It is as if nobody reads the last ten pages to see where arguments, ideas, and topics have already been mentioned, debated, and decided upon.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
In a lot of matchups BB tends to be saving me more life than it's hurting. Yes, I trade 1 life loss per turn for not taking more than that from my opponent's creatures. Also, 1 life against a 2/2 flying, vigilance faerie token is something I'm also willing to trade for. It's a consistent, repeatable source of tokens which is something this deck wants.
Since when is Bitterblossom a core card? I'll agree Souls/Procession are core.
I think Bitterblossom has become a core card in the past couple weeks. Many decks I have seen do well include them.
It's been core since January when the European team was running four at PT Fate Reforged. Flash forward to two months ago when Eric Froelich and Shahar Shenhar ran four in their build at Worlds. I'm seriously dumbfounded as to why folks think it is a recent phenomenon. You run three Sorin, two Vault of the Archangel, and several Timely Reinforcements to help with your life. You don't fetch up shocklands after the first because you really only need Plains unless you're running Liliana. Bitterblossom is so strong that it ends up winning you the game before the life loss matters or the tokens are able to block so many Goyfs that the one life a turn is a much better deal than the damage you would be taking from opposing creatures.
This thread is a broken record. It is as if nobody reads the last ten pages to see where arguments, ideas, and topics have already been mentioned, debated, and decided upon.
Honestly, this is something I see in so many low-tier threads. Tier 1 discussion tends to be centered around optimal play. Low tier decks generate discussion that is something closer to everyone bumping their heads on the low ceiling of the deck and arguing about who's higher up. This is coming from someone who played 8rack for about a year, and kept up with the discussion daily; it's very similar to what's happening here.
Yeah I guess that makes sense, though not something I'll be getting any time soon $150-200 for the set is a bit much for me to drop most of the time. My current list seems to be just fine as well. Though I never did get an answer about my question on the Merfolk match, anyone know how to win that one? Every list I've played is running 2 Sea's Claim as well as the usual 4 Spreading Seas, so on the draw they can lock out our lands turn 1, and follow it up with a Spreading Seas turn 2 effectively keeping us off enough colored sources long enough to win. Even when it doesn't happen a turn 2-4 Spreading Seas seems to be a game breaker.
Forget main deck Timely Reinforcements. Get some Auriok Champion.
Follow the pros. E Fro after worlds said the only change he would make is -1 Auriok Champion.
I've been on 4 Bitterblossom, 3 Auriok Champion, 3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor and 2 Liliana of the Veil for a while now and I personally feel like it is the best combination of cards for the deck currently.
I could be convinced Gideon deserves a spot but I'm not sure where. I won't be trying him until his price dips which may be a while.
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Modern GU Infect | x Affinity | RWG Naya Burn | W Death and Taxes | U Merfolk | BURG BTL Scapeshift | WUUW Titan | R Goblins | BURGW Suicide Zoo
Yeah I guess that makes sense, though not something I'll be getting any time soon $150-200 for the set is a bit much for me to drop most of the time. My current list seems to be just fine as well. Though I never did get an answer about my question on the Merfolk match, anyone know how to win that one? Every list I've played is running 2 Sea's Claim as well as the usual 4 Spreading Seas, so on the draw they can lock out our lands turn 1, and follow it up with a Spreading Seas turn 2 effectively keeping us off enough colored sources long enough to win. Even when it doesn't happen a turn 2-4 Spreading Seas seems to be a game breaker.
Honestly, I think the list just needs more disruption. Maybe not NEEDS but, for that matchup, you want to side into more I think. More disruption too. I've found it's not crazy bad, but I haven't tested any lists that have Sea's claim in them.
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Currently Playing: R8whackR WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Yeah I guess that makes sense, though not something I'll be getting any time soon $150-200 for the set is a bit much for me to drop most of the time. My current list seems to be just fine as well. Though I never did get an answer about my question on the Merfolk match, anyone know how to win that one? Every list I've played is running 2 Sea's Claim as well as the usual 4 Spreading Seas, so on the draw they can lock out our lands turn 1, and follow it up with a Spreading Seas turn 2 effectively keeping us off enough colored sources long enough to win. Even when it doesn't happen a turn 2-4 Spreading Seas seems to be a game breaker.
Honestly, I think the list just needs more disruption. Maybe not NEEDS but, for that matchup, you want to side into more I think. More disruption too. I've found it's not crazy bad, but I haven't tested any lists that have Sea's claim in them.
Yeah Claim seems to be a new thing some lists are testing, and it's definitely effective at disrupting early game. I did ok one game bringing in 2 Kataki to shut down Aether Vial which seemed ok. But that was more a sideboard is still WiP call than anything. I run 4 TS, 3 IoK main, so that should be plenty of disruption, but like I said once Seas/Claim come down it's pretty much game over unless I've drawn into Sundered Growth.
Hmm, I don't know if disruption is really doing enough here. Like, I think the thing you need is removing their islandwalk lords. Without those, they're doing what we do, but the suck at it. I'm thinking what this thread needs is a Cockatrice testing group so we can play out some of these matchups. I've got a ton of tier 1-2 decks set up on my computer, that I test with and I'd always be down to play the villain if someone wants to get some more reps in against a bad matchup.
I also had a really interesting conversation with a merfolk player about what to be taking with Thoughtseize/IOK against Fish:
"">no problem, BW tokens is indeed something completely different than Jund, so it plays differently, for instance i would not side out vial against tokens
spreading seas is extremely important in this game, as without islandwalk merfolks will have some trouble attacking against swarms of 2/2 flying, vigilance tokens, but still killing all the islandwalk lord is better than destroying spreading seas
if you see something like 3+ lords on hand than yes taking vial might be good idea, but only if you can clock him fast yourself, if you take vial and then go for the long game it would be better to have them at -1 lord, vial will become almost always irrelevant after some point, generally taking an islandwalk lord might not always be optimal but is never a mistake, taking a vial might be good sometimes but can backfire bigtime, especially since you play path to exile, he's going to end up with more mana than he needs
you have little removal (something like 6 spots i guess?) so you must make it count, never path something that's not a lord nor Master of Waves
the key to winning imo is smart use of removal and zealous persecution mid combat so you can screw up their combat math and block in your favour, also removing their islandwalk lord after they declare attackers can do some serious damage, especially if you have something like double removal he will probably not be expecting it, a great chance to let his other fish suicide upon tokens blocking
the deck does have some redundancy in the sense that it will always have merfolks, but it only plays 8 islandwalk lords, which are a class above the others (apart from some rare cases when reejerey can ramp them for 2+ mana with his tap/untap tricks)
Edit: How many fetches are you running? It may be that we need to be taking a much, much more controlling role in the match up, not cracking fetches until the very last minute (and only on their end step), to play around Sea's Claim, and Spreading Seas. Maybe siding out Spectral Procession, and any other things that just to colour intensive. I'm also curious about testing Damnation/Crux of Fate.
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
4x Thoughtseize
4x Path to Exile
1x Secure the Wastes
1x Spear of Heliod
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4x Bitterblossom
4x Intangible Virtue
1x Flooded Strand
4x Godless Shrine
2x Isolated Chapel
4x Plains
3x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
3x Windbrisk Heights
4x Windswept Heath
4x Disenchant
3x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Rest in Peace
2x Zealous Persecution
I think Bitterblossom has become a core card in the past couple weeks. Many decks I have seen do well include them.
Why not run Timely Reinforcements instead of Gather the Townsfolk. It can be played for good value at MANY points in a game and helps gain you a ton of life and 3 dudes.
Wouldn't that seriously hurt certain matchups? Between fetches/shocks/thoughtseize/blossom you'll do more damage to yourself than to your opponent.
Well one's sideboard can determine how a match will go as well, are you just asking how game 1 is against each deck?
I think it has been at least for the last several months most BW tokens decks that do well run 3-4 Bitterblossoms for the most part
But between Sorin, SV, Shambling Vents and Timely Reinforcements, I think it balances out for most people.
So my thoughts on the "hero" slot are this: IMO I think the 4 drop slot is better suited for a planeswalker, namely Gideon, Ally of Zendikar (or similar). I tested Hero extensively, the main problem is that she is an absolute lightening rod for removal... in testing she is wiped out 3/4 times within a turn and was rarely able to contribute... If you untap then you are going to win but in that situation she feels more "win more" than utility. Hence the argument for a planeswalker here... Gideon gives you much more utility in a variety of boardstates over hero. He is difficult for opponents to deal with as is and provides a must answer threat that is immune to large chunks of removal plus you can use his +0 or -4 immediately and, worst case provides a blocker or permanent anthem. Also planeswalkers in general tend to provide a life buffer when oppenents swing into them vs your life total... Overall plansewalkers provide significantly more utility in the 4-drop slot.
BW Eldrazi - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bw-eldrazi-proc/
U Merfolk - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/fishmode/
New Gideon hasn't put up results that I have seen yet. I'm reluctant to spend so much money on him at this point. I have two Liliana in that slot that I will keep for now. Liliana in the deck has put up results.
GU Infect | x Affinity | RWG Naya Burn | W Death and Taxes | U Merfolk | BURG BTL Scapeshift | WUUW Titan | R Goblins | BURGW Suicide Zoo
This thread is a broken record. It is as if nobody reads the last ten pages to see where arguments, ideas, and topics have already been mentioned, debated, and decided upon.
Honestly, this is something I see in so many low-tier threads. Tier 1 discussion tends to be centered around optimal play. Low tier decks generate discussion that is something closer to everyone bumping their heads on the low ceiling of the deck and arguing about who's higher up. This is coming from someone who played 8rack for about a year, and kept up with the discussion daily; it's very similar to what's happening here.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Follow the pros. E Fro after worlds said the only change he would make is -1 Auriok Champion.
I've been on 4 Bitterblossom, 3 Auriok Champion, 3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor and 2 Liliana of the Veil for a while now and I personally feel like it is the best combination of cards for the deck currently.
I could be convinced Gideon deserves a spot but I'm not sure where. I won't be trying him until his price dips which may be a while.
GU Infect | x Affinity | RWG Naya Burn | W Death and Taxes | U Merfolk | BURG BTL Scapeshift | WUUW Titan | R Goblins | BURGW Suicide Zoo
Honestly, I think the list just needs more disruption. Maybe not NEEDS but, for that matchup, you want to side into more I think. More disruption too. I've found it's not crazy bad, but I haven't tested any lists that have Sea's claim in them.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Yeah Claim seems to be a new thing some lists are testing, and it's definitely effective at disrupting early game. I did ok one game bringing in 2 Kataki to shut down Aether Vial which seemed ok. But that was more a sideboard is still WiP call than anything. I run 4 TS, 3 IoK main, so that should be plenty of disruption, but like I said once Seas/Claim come down it's pretty much game over unless I've drawn into Sundered Growth.
I also had a really interesting conversation with a merfolk player about what to be taking with Thoughtseize/IOK against Fish:
spreading seas is extremely important in this game, as without islandwalk merfolks will have some trouble attacking against swarms of 2/2 flying, vigilance tokens, but still killing all the islandwalk lord is better than destroying spreading seas
if you see something like 3+ lords on hand than yes taking vial might be good idea, but only if you can clock him fast yourself, if you take vial and then go for the long game it would be better to have them at -1 lord, vial will become almost always irrelevant after some point, generally taking an islandwalk lord might not always be optimal but is never a mistake, taking a vial might be good sometimes but can backfire bigtime, especially since you play path to exile, he's going to end up with more mana than he needs
you have little removal (something like 6 spots i guess?) so you must make it count, never path something that's not a lord nor Master of Waves
the key to winning imo is smart use of removal and zealous persecution mid combat so you can screw up their combat math and block in your favour, also removing their islandwalk lord after they declare attackers can do some serious damage, especially if you have something like double removal he will probably not be expecting it, a great chance to let his other fish suicide upon tokens blocking
the deck does have some redundancy in the sense that it will always have merfolks, but it only plays 8 islandwalk lords, which are a class above the others (apart from some rare cases when reejerey can ramp them for 2+ mana with his tap/untap tricks)
Edit: How many fetches are you running? It may be that we need to be taking a much, much more controlling role in the match up, not cracking fetches until the very last minute (and only on their end step), to play around Sea's Claim, and Spreading Seas. Maybe siding out Spectral Procession, and any other things that just to colour intensive. I'm also curious about testing Damnation/Crux of Fate.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG