Got my hands on an Elspeth 2.0 the other day. Did some play testing last night against my roommate's UTron deck and she put in serious work. Still at 5cmc she's really clunky.
Got my hands on an Elspeth 2.0 the other day. Did some play testing last night against my roommate's UTron deck and she put in serious work. Still at 5cmc she's really clunky.
Elspeth Tirel is really really good. I eventually cut her for the second Secure the Wastes just for its flexibility. But she can easily win against GBx decks in a way that I think makes her a better sideboard option than Blood Baron. She might be a solid trump card to come out of the board. The fact that she is able to ultimate the second turn she is in play and essentially does a one-sided wrath is amazing.
Frank Lepore's videos were pretty solid. Fourth BB seems awkward. Deck needs at least the 23rd if not the 24th land. And having only four Paths as your removal seems awkward. I don't love how Frank sideboarded; I think Dismember and RIP need to come in against Grixis Delve in the fourth match and cutting Paths against Affinity seems bad when all you care about it exiling Overseer and whoever gets Ravager's counters. I can't remember if he took out discard against them, but if so, I don't love that because you have to snipe Etched Champion. Deck as an archetype looked decent, though.
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Got my hands on an Elspeth 2.0 the other day. Did some play testing last night against my roommate's UTron deck and she put in serious work. Still at 5cmc she's really clunky.
Elspeth Tirel is really really good. I eventually cut her for the second Secure the Wastes just for its flexibility. But she can easily win against GBx decks in a way that I think makes her a better sideboard option than Blood Baron. She might be a solid trump card to come out of the board. The fact that she is able to ultimate the second turn she is in play and essentially does a one-sided wrath is amazing.
Frank Lepore's videos were pretty solid. Fourth BB seems awkward. Deck needs at least the 23rd if not the 24th land. And having only four Paths as your removal seems awkward. I don't love how Frank sideboarded; I think Dismember and RIP need to come in against Grixis Delve in the fourth match and cutting Paths against Affinity seems bad when all you care about it exiling Overseer and whoever gets Ravager's counters. I can't remember if he took out discard against them, but if so, I don't love that because you have to snipe Etched Champion. Deck as an archetype looked decent, though.
100% agree on the Delver thing bring in RIP and removal no doubt, as for affinity unfortunately keep in thoughtseize is a bit of a necessary evil to get champion.
No Sorin, or Elspeth, or Ajani? I'd at least run 2 of Sorin 2.0 since your running that deck. And with that deck running 12 MB Discards you won't want/need the SB Discards as well. I also feel as if you don't have enough removal for any big threat that does get on the board. Sure you Path probably once or twice a game... But that's it.
Against affinity - I'd much rather leave in inquisition for etched champion than thoughtseize. I don't think you need 6-7 discard for their 2-3 etched champs. I usually go down to 4 inquisition, and play the rest of my artefact hate... it ends up looking something like this:
4 Path to exile
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut
Sideboard stuff brough in:
2 Sundering Growth
2 Stony Silence
And I have an awesome record vs affinity (at the minute). Don't think I've lost to it yet. Having more live dead-draws (e.g. more discard) is bad, and having a discard spell that saves life (e.g. inquisition) is very relevant. I don't see the need to leave in thoughtseize, and thought that Frank was right with that part of boarding.
I agree with that, but cutting a Path and then cutting Thoughtseize, only to have issues with Champion is awkward. I think there are better cards to take out. Against a deck that doesn't run enchantment removal, I would cut the fourth BB and some number of Raise the Alarm before Thoughtseize. Raise the Alarm did decent work in terms of putting pressure on his opponent via Intangible Virtue, but I don't think that is necessary to win that match. I feel like leveraging Spirit tokens is all that it takes if you can find ways of removing Champion, Overseer, and Master of Etherium. I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I think there was a more optimum swap for Frank who had played the deck all of two rounds or whatever prior to making the videos.
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- Despise is about as good a sideboard card as my other sideboard cards as there are so many matchups where it is nearly a painless Thoughtseize. In creature heavy decks and decks such as infect and bogles, it replaces Duress.
Shouldn't it only replace Duress on the play? On the play, it can snipe the turn one Gladecover or Boggle, but on the draw, you would want Duress to snipe what they are putting on the Gladecover.
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I understand you think you can't find spots for a Planeswalker. But in this deck, the ability to STABILIZE back from an aggro deck with one attack supported by Sorin 3.0's Lifelink creatures.. It's insane. At least try 2 in the deck. Only thing he doesn't help you with is unblockables and infect. I'm just saying. Sorin 3.0 is a beast.
I've been playing and tweaking this for a while. Less discard, more discard, more token generators, more planeswalkers. I used to keep a one of Entreat the Angels or something, but it rarely went off or the timing of its miracle cost was bad. Looking at Origins I'm thinking that Dark Dabbling and Gideon's Phalanx may just be helpful. Rarely will the spell mastery not be in place, and I can see plenty of times my tokens would have been cleared off that these two could save them. With all the manlands around, I'm upping my T-edge and GQ, and with wipers like Anger of the Gods I feel the extra anthem may help. I saw it mentioned earlier, and it seemed meh, but the more I think about how to break up combo and things like Abzan Company, Altar of the Brood SB seems rather cheap and sensible. With all the tokens we make, that's a lot of cards going to their graveyard.
In a decent tournament you will never be able to pull off Gideon's Phalanx the way you want. And would you rather have Dark Dabbling for the card draw and to tap your creatures out to save them or would you rather have Rootborn Defenses for indestructible and an extra guy for that block ...?
Edit:
Also on your idea for Altar of the Brood. The ONLY way I could see this card working for us would be full discard package and 4 MB Surgical Extraction. Because the amount of Tasigurs running around is ridiculous. lol.
In a decent tournament you will never be able to pull off Gideon's Phalanx the way you want. And would you rather have Dark Dabbling for the card draw and to tap your creatures out to save them or would you rather have Rootborn Defenses for indestructible and an extra guy for that block ...?
Edit:
Also on your idea for Altar of the Brood. The ONLY way I could see this card working for us would be full discard package and 4 MB Surgical Extraction. Because the amount of Tasigurs running around is ridiculous. lol.
I thought Altar of the Brood was a way of milling opponents who have gained infinite life... Idea isn't awful.
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I've had several games where things are at a stalemate, or standstill. Where I've had the 7 mana on their turn and responded to some sort of pyroclasm or wrath with an instant Raise the Alarm in response ... either of the three you mention would help.
Hadn't thought about Rootborn Defenses. Perhaps that's better than Gideon's, although the 4x 2/2 vigilance tokens isn't bad. How many tokens do we typically have on board to populate? Seems never more than a few 1/1s (plus anthems). But, I'm going to pick up some of those and playtest them.
But in these sorts of midrange situations, I've also been topdecking with nothing in BW Tokens to help. The timely card draw certainly would help beyond simply saving the creatures?
Milling continuously for 1 mana to cast also kills a lot of combo. Playing Grixis Tasigur Twin myself, I took out the Thought Scour because I mainly used them to fuel delve, but hated seeing my Splinter Twin go to the graveyard.
The Deck listscon MTG TOP8 Under B/W Tokens all seem to follow this structure, and they're starting to put up results. If I can get my hand on Bitterblossom I'll use them in the decklist structure I've listed above with 3 Auriok Champion in the main as the flex spots for the PPTQ I'm going to this weekend, otherwise I'll be playing this list.
I played my BWg tokens list I have posted here before in the premier IQ, slight SB change (2 Duress added, 2 smallpox out) in Chicago yesterday it was 9 rounds, I was 6-2 going into the final round win I get 21 a few slots behind the other Tokens player that did well he was 7-2, but I lost to affinity for 47th my breakers were bad, but all in all 6-3 and I think my deck was good, one of my losses was just to bad luck had to mull to 5 twice against merfolk, anyway I'll give a mini breakdown here and a few thoughts on my deck as well.
on the day records Vs decks
1-1 Vs Merfolk
1-1 Vs Zoo (beat Collected, loss to more traditional)
2-0 Vs Fairies
1-0 Vs Jund
1-0 Vs Burn
0-1 Vs Affinity
I still like the green splash for Abrupt Decay and though I only saw Township maybe twice all day both times it was very good.
However Secure the Wastes was underwhelming, I think I may try some changes, also I am going to start trying Bitterblossom, however that may lead me back to a more traditional build eventually as I think that may make heights better, but not sure if playing those with my splash will work due to the existence of Blood Moon, but I will try to keep my Decays for now as they once again were good all day, though may go down to three to make this work. Prob have to get Timley's main too for that. All and all it was fun and I had a chance in the last round of getting in the money at least as well. I'll be happy to answer any questions and give a better breakdown of specific match ups if asked.
Take out the Ajani for another land and you've got a fairly standard list, I don't know what you mean with "these lists"?
Mainly them only running 22 lands. I really can't fathom how the deck can even function at all on twenty-two lands let alone do well at a large event. In Lepore's videos, over the course of four matches, he lost three games to his mana. The first list that ran Ajani had 21 lands and the guy 5-0ed a Modern festival event.
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Take out the Ajani for another land and you've got a fairly standard list, I don't know what you mean with "these lists"?
Mainly them only running 22 lands. I really can't fathom how the deck can even function at all on twenty-two lands let alone do well at a large event. In Lepore's videos, over the course of four matches, he lost three games to his mana. The first list that ran Ajani had 21 lands and the guy 5-0ed a Modern festival event.
Yeah, I agree. I play 2 Vault and 2 Windbrisk with 23 lands total and it's working fine for me. 21 is definitely not enough, but I consider testing 22 at least. This deck could really use a good BW manland, but I doubt they'll print anything like that in BFZ...
Spiked an 8 man against Grixis Twin, Dredgevine, and Abzan Liege with this list as a kind of variant on what has been successful lately. I guess, this is what I would consider a reasonable way of building those lists.
The sideboard isn't perfect, but I think the maindeck is rather good. In paper, if you have Marsh Flats then run those over Heaths, but either even Flooded Strand is better than Bloodstained Mire. Just run the 23rd land at the least, I think. I mulliganed once over the course of the seven games and got mana screwed once. That wasn't fun, luckily my opponent also ended up mana screwed and I pulled out of it quicker. I cut the fourth Bitterblossom for a Murderous Cut in the main, which is basically a free roll in this deck. Four BB is too many to me, and I like having the extra removal against Twin Game one.
I think the lists that win dailies are soft to burn. Kor Firewalker and Auriok Champion are less susceptible to Skullcrack. Auriok Champion is also helpful against Twin. When I tested the Surgical/RIP split last, I really liked it. The second RIP can sometimes be a dead card so mixing it up isn't awful. Go for the Throat is still around from when Infect was more prevalent, but I think it is still better than Dismember in most cases. I'm not convinced that four Stony Silences improves the Tron matchup enough, nor do I think it is necesary against Affinity so I just went with four. Kinda want to cut it to two. I don't even know if I want any, but who knows.
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Elspeth Tirel is really really good. I eventually cut her for the second Secure the Wastes just for its flexibility. But she can easily win against GBx decks in a way that I think makes her a better sideboard option than Blood Baron. She might be a solid trump card to come out of the board. The fact that she is able to ultimate the second turn she is in play and essentially does a one-sided wrath is amazing.
Frank Lepore's videos were pretty solid. Fourth BB seems awkward. Deck needs at least the 23rd if not the 24th land. And having only four Paths as your removal seems awkward. I don't love how Frank sideboarded; I think Dismember and RIP need to come in against Grixis Delve in the fourth match and cutting Paths against Affinity seems bad when all you care about it exiling Overseer and whoever gets Ravager's counters. I can't remember if he took out discard against them, but if so, I don't love that because you have to snipe Etched Champion. Deck as an archetype looked decent, though.
100% agree on the Delver thing bring in RIP and removal no doubt, as for affinity unfortunately keep in thoughtseize is a bit of a necessary evil to get champion.
I agree with that, but cutting a Path and then cutting Thoughtseize, only to have issues with Champion is awkward. I think there are better cards to take out. Against a deck that doesn't run enchantment removal, I would cut the fourth BB and some number of Raise the Alarm before Thoughtseize. Raise the Alarm did decent work in terms of putting pressure on his opponent via Intangible Virtue, but I don't think that is necessary to win that match. I feel like leveraging Spirit tokens is all that it takes if you can find ways of removing Champion, Overseer, and Master of Etherium. I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I think there was a more optimum swap for Frank who had played the deck all of two rounds or whatever prior to making the videos.
Shouldn't it only replace Duress on the play? On the play, it can snipe the turn one Gladecover or Boggle, but on the draw, you would want Duress to snipe what they are putting on the Gladecover.
4x Flooded Strand
4x Godless Shrine
3x Isolated Chapel
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
3x Windbrisk Heights
Planeswalker (6)
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Liliana of the Veil
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4x Intangible Virtue
Token (14)
4x Bitterblossom
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
2x Timely Reinforcements
Discard (18)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
Removal (6)
4x Path to Exile
2x Zealous Persecution
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Rest in Peace
3x Stony Silence
3x Sundering Growth
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Timely Reinforcements
I'm going to take a Superfriend approach for now and see how it goes. Tests have been decent. Lili has performed ridiculously well.
2 Fetid Heath
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Windbrisk Heights
Planeswalker
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Spells
1 Secure the Wastes
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Spectral Procession
3 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Dark Dabbling
1 Murderous Cut
1 Dismember
1 Gideon's Phalanx
1 Honor of the Pure
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Stony Silence
1 Secure the Wastes
3 Rest in Peace
3 Sundering Growth
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Altar of the Brood
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
Edit:
Also on your idea for Altar of the Brood. The ONLY way I could see this card working for us would be full discard package and 4 MB Surgical Extraction. Because the amount of Tasigurs running around is ridiculous. lol.
I thought Altar of the Brood was a way of milling opponents who have gained infinite life... Idea isn't awful.
Hadn't thought about Rootborn Defenses. Perhaps that's better than Gideon's, although the 4x 2/2 vigilance tokens isn't bad. How many tokens do we typically have on board to populate? Seems never more than a few 1/1s (plus anthems). But, I'm going to pick up some of those and playtest them.
But in these sorts of midrange situations, I've also been topdecking with nothing in BW Tokens to help. The timely card draw certainly would help beyond simply saving the creatures?
Milling continuously for 1 mana to cast also kills a lot of combo. Playing Grixis Tasigur Twin myself, I took out the Thought Scour because I mainly used them to fuel delve, but hated seeing my Splinter Twin go to the graveyard.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
1 Ajani Goldmane
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Flooded Strand
4 Godless Shrine
3 Isolated Chapel
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Windbrisk Heights
4 Path to Exile
4 Raise the Alarm
1 Zealous Persecution
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
3 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements
4 Bitterblossom
3 Rest in Peace
4 Stony Silence
2 Dismember
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Duress
2 Timely Reinforcements
Still just don't understand these lists.
Edit: Bloodstained Mire is just stupid.
The New deck main seems to be
3 Thoughtseize
4 Raise the Alarm
4 Lingering souls
4 Spectral Procession
4 Bitterblossom
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Path to Exile
1 Zealous Persection
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3 Flex Spots
4 Godless Shrine
7 Fetches
1 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Windbrisk Heights
3 Isolated Chapel
The Deck listscon MTG TOP8 Under B/W Tokens all seem to follow this structure, and they're starting to put up results. If I can get my hand on Bitterblossom I'll use them in the decklist structure I've listed above with 3 Auriok Champion in the main as the flex spots for the PPTQ I'm going to this weekend, otherwise I'll be playing this list.
3 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Godless Shrine
3 Windswept Heath
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Isolated Chapel
3 Windbrisk Heights
4 Path to Exile
2 Zealous Persecution
4 Raise the Alarm
2 Secure the Wastes
2 Dismember
4 Lingering Souls
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Intangible Virtue
1 Honor of the Pure
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Rest in Peace
3 Duress
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Stony Silence
3 Auriok Champion
1 Sundering Growth
1 Sudden Death
on the day records Vs decks
1-1 Vs Merfolk
1-1 Vs Zoo (beat Collected, loss to more traditional)
2-0 Vs Fairies
1-0 Vs Jund
1-0 Vs Burn
0-1 Vs Affinity
I still like the green splash for Abrupt Decay and though I only saw Township maybe twice all day both times it was very good.
However Secure the Wastes was underwhelming, I think I may try some changes, also I am going to start trying Bitterblossom, however that may lead me back to a more traditional build eventually as I think that may make heights better, but not sure if playing those with my splash will work due to the existence of Blood Moon, but I will try to keep my Decays for now as they once again were good all day, though may go down to three to make this work. Prob have to get Timley's main too for that. All and all it was fun and I had a chance in the last round of getting in the money at least as well. I'll be happy to answer any questions and give a better breakdown of specific match ups if asked.
Mainly them only running 22 lands. I really can't fathom how the deck can even function at all on twenty-two lands let alone do well at a large event. In Lepore's videos, over the course of four matches, he lost three games to his mana. The first list that ran Ajani had 21 lands and the guy 5-0ed a Modern festival event.
Yeah, I agree. I play 2 Vault and 2 Windbrisk with 23 lands total and it's working fine for me. 21 is definitely not enough, but I consider testing 22 at least. This deck could really use a good BW manland, but I doubt they'll print anything like that in BFZ...
3 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
4 Godless Shrine
3 Isolated Chapel
1 Fetid Heath
2 Vault of the Archangel
3 Windbrisk Heights
4 Path to Exile
4 Raise the Alarm
1 Zealous Persecution
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
3 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements
3 Bitterblossom
1 Murderous Cut
2 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Stony Silence
2 Disenchant
1 Go for the Throat
3 Duress
1 Kor Firewalker
2 Auriok Champion
The sideboard isn't perfect, but I think the maindeck is rather good. In paper, if you have Marsh Flats then run those over Heaths, but either even Flooded Strand is better than Bloodstained Mire. Just run the 23rd land at the least, I think. I mulliganed once over the course of the seven games and got mana screwed once. That wasn't fun, luckily my opponent also ended up mana screwed and I pulled out of it quicker. I cut the fourth Bitterblossom for a Murderous Cut in the main, which is basically a free roll in this deck. Four BB is too many to me, and I like having the extra removal against Twin Game one.
I think the lists that win dailies are soft to burn. Kor Firewalker and Auriok Champion are less susceptible to Skullcrack. Auriok Champion is also helpful against Twin. When I tested the Surgical/RIP split last, I really liked it. The second RIP can sometimes be a dead card so mixing it up isn't awful. Go for the Throat is still around from when Infect was more prevalent, but I think it is still better than Dismember in most cases. I'm not convinced that four Stony Silences improves the Tron matchup enough, nor do I think it is necesary against Affinity so I just went with four. Kinda want to cut it to two. I don't even know if I want any, but who knows.