Back in the day when both jtms and tezz aob were legal in standard I took a deck featuring both to top8 in a major tournament. They play very very well together...
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Everyone talking about JTMS being a nice alternative win condition because creatures are removal magnets - well, we can still run planeswalkers. I've been working on making 6+CMC walkers good with Whir of invention. 4 Whir plus Lotus Bloom is a pretty reliable 6-8 mana on T4 (depending on T2 Mana rock or not) in this deck. As long as you are willing to warp the mana base to accommodate UUU on T3, whirring for bloom is big game. I've been trying Sorin, Grim Nemesis with an esper mana base. But Tezzeret, Master of Metal is good here too, as is just Tezz AOB + 3 mana worth of other stuff.
I guess what I'm saying is that UUU Instant-Speed Black Lotus is a good card.
For the instant speed lotus bloom, you are sacrificing a lot of consistency for it: your 6+ mana pw does nothing in your hand without a whir and a counterspell or maelstrom pulse at your pw is a massive blow.
Yea, well I'm not recommending warping the deck around 6cmc Walkers. I'm currently trying 2. As far as consistency goes, it takes up a grand total of 4 slots, so you're not giving up much. And I've been finding that having access to bloom via whir actually adds some consistency because sometimes you just need the extra mana rather than a Spellskite or whatever.
And yes, a Planeswalker getting tagged by Maelstrom pulse sucks, but that is a bad argument. Literally every permanent gets hit by Maelstrom. The idea is to have something resilient to creature removal since we run so little of them, generally.
There's been a dedicated attempt at making a Tezz/Lantern hybrid starting off a Lantern shell, in the Lantern thread a couple pages back. Can't dig it out for ya as I'm still on the road and iPhone MTG searching is kinda sucky, but it's a very good place to start. Tezz and Lantern are more similar than we give it credit for, I know it too well having jumped from Tezz to Lantern in november. Basically: two sides of an Ensnaring Bridge control strategy. In my opinion, there's still untapped potential there.
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Lantern is a strange bird, but extremely powerful albeit slow to technically win. Tezz fixes that. Lili does literally nothing for the deck. I suggest you search her up in the thread and familiarize yourself more with the Lantern game (it's almost playing *outside* magic).
In my experience, where Tezz is all powercards assembled in a somewhat clunky manner, Lantern is one lean engine where every bit really add up to tremendous consistency and inevitability. But it needs the better part of its shell to work. So you should start there, from its core principles and all. Im afraid that just optimistically mashin' em up together might not get you far. I'll be with ya! @Crexalbo also expressed big interest in such a shift.
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
So i just made this deck and have played it in 3 FNM's so far. I will post my thoughts and theory about it but i have to tell you. that list is just all over the place...
Hey guys, I kind of gave up on this deck, idk Kind of just doesn't do it for me anymore. I was wondering, what do you guys think this deck needs to be a competitor?
@mjg94, I'm getting to the same headspace as you at the moment. We are actually the most viable we've been in a while now that so many creature strategies are emerging and we run bridges. However, Tezz just doesn't get the job done enough.
This deck needs better early interaction and more relevant artifacts to become viable. Fast mana would also help. Keep an eye out in future sets for cards like Baleful Strix, fast mana, and artifacts that do things that non-artifact cards in the deck already do.
@mjg94, I'm getting to the same headspace as you at the moment. We are actually the most viable we've been in a while now that so many creature strategies are emerging and we run bridges. However, Tezz just doesn't get the job done enough.
This deck needs better early interaction and more relevant artifacts to become viable. Fast mana would also help. Keep an eye out in future sets for cards like Baleful Strix, fast mana, and artifacts that do things that non-artifact cards in the deck already do.
I think the deck is viable as it stands, but as I said in previous posts it is a very difficult deck to play and master.
I agree baleful strix fould go a long way to improving the deck - in addition to more functional artifacts at low cmc (0-2). Right now most of the functional artifacts we have access to are utility cards ( like spellskite) or mana rocks.
Baleful strix - it's a card we really need. I am not waiting for it though. Each new set that print's artifacts matter effects helps this deck. Excited for the eventual return to mirrodin...
An unban of the artifact lands would help a lot too...
Balancing the critical mass of artifacts to make Tezz work, cmc and curve to make bridge work, and control elements to stay alive is a very difficult thing to do.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
@mjg94, I'm getting to the same headspace as you at the moment. We are actually the most viable we've been in a while now that so many creature strategies are emerging and we run bridges. However, Tezz just doesn't get the job done enough.
This deck needs better early interaction and more relevant artifacts to become viable. Fast mana would also help. Keep an eye out in future sets for cards like Baleful Strix, fast mana, and artifacts that do things that non-artifact cards in the deck already do.
I think the deck is viable as it stands, but as I said in previous posts it is a very difficult deck to play and master.
I agree baleful strix fould go a long way to improving the deck - in addition to more functional artifacts at low cmc (0-2). Right now most of the functional artifacts we have access to are utility cards ( like spellskite) or mana rocks.
Baleful strix - it's a card we really need. I am not waiting for it though. Each new set that print's artifacts matter effects helps this deck. Excited for the eventual return to mirrodin...
An unban of the artifact lands would help a lot too...
Hey guys, I kind of gave up on this deck, idk Kind of just doesn't do it for me anymore. I was wondering, what do you guys think this deck needs to be a competitor?
I honestly think it just needs more experimentation. We have so many new cards to play with from this latest artifact theme set, but so few people are willing to give up the ghost of old builds. IMO, Whir of Invention should bust this deck in half, yet we haven't seen it. There are some sacred cards that people wont experiment without, Ensnaring Bridge being the biggest offender here. The card is great, don't get me wrong, but it does put huge constraints on deck building. There are other cards in this space as well, 1cmc Discard spells, spellskite/welding jar, glint-nest all jump out as well. Even regarding the correct number of artifacts to run overall is debated often. Some will tell you that you need a high count to ensure selection with your Tezz/Glint-Nest...others will tell you that including "filler" artifacts is a bad strategy as it promotes some of the worse top decks.
The other big issue, as I see it, is the bad top decks just mentioned. We've been discussing it the last half a dozen pages or so actually. Getting to turn 6+ in a close game and then ripping a discard spell/welding jar/half of the combo is Feelbads City. A lot of the deck feels like 'fluff' to me.
Could you imagine if we had access to more artifact win conditions that weren't creatures?
What I would give to play with a card like cursed scroll in this deck...
Unless you are building around artifact creatures, your options are mostly "fluff." Look at a lantern control deck for example - all fluff... That's kind of our archetype at this point - more than the sum of its parts. That is if you are playing a tezzeret deck.
You need critical mass of artifacts not only for tezz +1, but also for his ultimate. Being that we don't do damage throughout the game you need 8-10 artifacts out when he needs to ultimate. This isn't really a debate - more of an established deckbuilding constraint.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I almost want to go a "combo delver" route in which we play Metallic Rebuke, Thopter Foundry, and Tezz (primarily for his -1) and just get there with fliers, but this play is weak to opposing discard and removal as it's more reactive. We basically are making the choice between being a bad Jund deck or a bad Lantern deck with little room in between. There's very little established identity, and that's more a fault of theorycrafting than a benefit of toolboxing.
We can all crush FNMs, but until there's higher-level testing against highly skilled pilots with established decks, we can't really trust the data from a forum. And that makes it really hard to establish a best shell (say, 51/60 cards that should be used regardless of the meta). As Radouf said, we could be chasing the wrong cards which affects the whole shell.
Until we take the whole thing super seriously, and invest the time and energy and critical thinking needed to work through the chaff, we won't be a top-level contender. The deck is fine. It's just not something I'm confident could win a GP in any hands in its current build(s).
You need critical mass of artifacts not only for tezz +1, but also for his ultimate. Being that we don't do damage throughout the game you need 8-10 artifacts out when he needs to ultimate. This isn't really a debate - more of an established deckbuilding constraint.
Yea, these established deck building constraints are more or less what I was getting at. People aren't experimenting enough outside of those constraints. Seeing as how the deck isn't really 'established' (read:winning competitive tournaments) there isn't much point in having 'established' constraints. The deck feels very stagnant, despite having so many new toys.
Play 2 copies of walking ballista. Closes out every game. Wins as much as Tezzeret Ultimate. Recycle with academy ruins is just ridiculous. Kill all the bobs, hierarchs, blinkmoths, signal pests, all that horsecrap. It also finishes off your opponent, your mana always goes somewhere. Card is insane in this deck.
You need critical mass of artifacts not only for tezz +1, but also for his ultimate. Being that we don't do damage throughout the game you need 8-10 artifacts out when he needs to ultimate. This isn't really a debate - more of an established deckbuilding constraint.
Yea, these established deck building constraints are more or less what I was getting at. People aren't experimenting enough outside of those constraints. Seeing as how the deck isn't really 'established' (read:winning competitive tournaments) there isn't much point in having 'established' constraints. The deck feels very stagnant, despite having so many new toys.
What part about needing a "critical mass of artifacts" to make tezzeret work is in need of experimenting with?
That is like saying that you can play a delver of secrets deck without considering a critical mass of spells...
I guess the experimenting you are suggesting is removing tezzeret? lol
Maybe you have different goals... If you goal is to make a good thopter-sword deck, or a good artifact deck then sure. But it would appear that the goal of this thread is to make a good Tezzeret AoB deck. So yes - artifact count is an established deckbuilding constraint. You need a minimum number for the planeswalker to function in the deck...
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Actually the Tezz AoB (the card) # found in builds has slowly went down over the years; from 4 to 3, and now 3 seems to be the norm and I could see the argument for running 2 -- if only we weren't so light on wincons. Lantern sometimes runs 1 and if we keep developping a hybrid of both decks, it will prolly settle on 2 IMO.
Now I agree that we tend to stick to the "Ghost of past builds" but there's a reason for that. There's a reason Ensnaring Bridge is a staple at this point. However it is right that in doing so, we likely don't go as far as we could in experimenting other ways; Heart of Kiran doesn't seem a bad idea; we seem to have forgotten about Smuggler's Copter; what about Linvering Souls? Or counterspells? Rainbow builds now that we have 8 rainbow lands? Vedalken Shackles? Why don't we extensively test Shino-Gen's crazy midrange builds?
For the main strategy we have, I think what we lack is cheap artifacts that are worth playing / Strix is both removal and card advantage, cheap enough, evasive and Bridge friendly; it would obv be the nuts to have. And a standalone artifact wincon that's Bridge friendly.
On cheap interaction, I really think we have enough already with IoK and TS, Push, Brut, Capsule to some extent, and Bridge to mop-up the rest. I mean, what more do you wish for lol?
Back in the day when both jtms and tezz aob were legal in standard I took a deck featuring both to top8 in a major tournament. They play very very well together...
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
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I guess what I'm saying is that UUU Instant-Speed Black Lotus is a good card.
Yea, well I'm not recommending warping the deck around 6cmc Walkers. I'm currently trying 2. As far as consistency goes, it takes up a grand total of 4 slots, so you're not giving up much. And I've been finding that having access to bloom via whir actually adds some consistency because sometimes you just need the extra mana rather than a Spellskite or whatever.
And yes, a Planeswalker getting tagged by Maelstrom pulse sucks, but that is a bad argument. Literally every permanent gets hit by Maelstrom. The idea is to have something resilient to creature removal since we run so little of them, generally.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
In my experience, where Tezz is all powercards assembled in a somewhat clunky manner, Lantern is one lean engine where every bit really add up to tremendous consistency and inevitability. But it needs the better part of its shell to work. So you should start there, from its core principles and all. Im afraid that just optimistically mashin' em up together might not get you far. I'll be with ya! @Crexalbo also expressed big interest in such a shift.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
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This deck needs better early interaction and more relevant artifacts to become viable. Fast mana would also help. Keep an eye out in future sets for cards like Baleful Strix, fast mana, and artifacts that do things that non-artifact cards in the deck already do.
I think the deck is viable as it stands, but as I said in previous posts it is a very difficult deck to play and master.
I agree baleful strix fould go a long way to improving the deck - in addition to more functional artifacts at low cmc (0-2). Right now most of the functional artifacts we have access to are utility cards ( like spellskite) or mana rocks.
Baleful strix - it's a card we really need. I am not waiting for it though. Each new set that print's artifacts matter effects helps this deck. Excited for the eventual return to mirrodin...
An unban of the artifact lands would help a lot too...
Balancing the critical mass of artifacts to make Tezz work, cmc and curve to make bridge work, and control elements to stay alive is a very difficult thing to do.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
A Strix reprint in Modern or an unban of Seat of the Synod or Jace, the Mind Sculptor would do wonders for the shell. So close, but yet so far...
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I honestly think it just needs more experimentation. We have so many new cards to play with from this latest artifact theme set, but so few people are willing to give up the ghost of old builds. IMO, Whir of Invention should bust this deck in half, yet we haven't seen it. There are some sacred cards that people wont experiment without, Ensnaring Bridge being the biggest offender here. The card is great, don't get me wrong, but it does put huge constraints on deck building. There are other cards in this space as well, 1cmc Discard spells, spellskite/welding jar, glint-nest all jump out as well. Even regarding the correct number of artifacts to run overall is debated often. Some will tell you that you need a high count to ensure selection with your Tezz/Glint-Nest...others will tell you that including "filler" artifacts is a bad strategy as it promotes some of the worse top decks.
The other big issue, as I see it, is the bad top decks just mentioned. We've been discussing it the last half a dozen pages or so actually. Getting to turn 6+ in a close game and then ripping a discard spell/welding jar/half of the combo is Feelbads City. A lot of the deck feels like 'fluff' to me.
What I would give to play with a card like cursed scroll in this deck...
Unless you are building around artifact creatures, your options are mostly "fluff." Look at a lantern control deck for example - all fluff... That's kind of our archetype at this point - more than the sum of its parts. That is if you are playing a tezzeret deck.
You need critical mass of artifacts not only for tezz +1, but also for his ultimate. Being that we don't do damage throughout the game you need 8-10 artifacts out when he needs to ultimate. This isn't really a debate - more of an established deckbuilding constraint.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
We can all crush FNMs, but until there's higher-level testing against highly skilled pilots with established decks, we can't really trust the data from a forum. And that makes it really hard to establish a best shell (say, 51/60 cards that should be used regardless of the meta). As Radouf said, we could be chasing the wrong cards which affects the whole shell.
Until we take the whole thing super seriously, and invest the time and energy and critical thinking needed to work through the chaff, we won't be a top-level contender. The deck is fine. It's just not something I'm confident could win a GP in any hands in its current build(s).
Yea, these established deck building constraints are more or less what I was getting at. People aren't experimenting enough outside of those constraints. Seeing as how the deck isn't really 'established' (read:winning competitive tournaments) there isn't much point in having 'established' constraints. The deck feels very stagnant, despite having so many new toys.
What part about needing a "critical mass of artifacts" to make tezzeret work is in need of experimenting with?
That is like saying that you can play a delver of secrets deck without considering a critical mass of spells...
I guess the experimenting you are suggesting is removing tezzeret? lol
Maybe you have different goals... If you goal is to make a good thopter-sword deck, or a good artifact deck then sure. But it would appear that the goal of this thread is to make a good Tezzeret AoB deck. So yes - artifact count is an established deckbuilding constraint. You need a minimum number for the planeswalker to function in the deck...
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Actually the Tezz AoB (the card) # found in builds has slowly went down over the years; from 4 to 3, and now 3 seems to be the norm and I could see the argument for running 2 -- if only we weren't so light on wincons. Lantern sometimes runs 1 and if we keep developping a hybrid of both decks, it will prolly settle on 2 IMO.
Now I agree that we tend to stick to the "Ghost of past builds" but there's a reason for that. There's a reason Ensnaring Bridge is a staple at this point. However it is right that in doing so, we likely don't go as far as we could in experimenting other ways; Heart of Kiran doesn't seem a bad idea; we seem to have forgotten about Smuggler's Copter; what about Linvering Souls? Or counterspells? Rainbow builds now that we have 8 rainbow lands? Vedalken Shackles? Why don't we extensively test Shino-Gen's crazy midrange builds?
For the main strategy we have, I think what we lack is cheap artifacts that are worth playing / Strix is both removal and card advantage, cheap enough, evasive and Bridge friendly; it would obv be the nuts to have. And a standalone artifact wincon that's Bridge friendly.
On cheap interaction, I really think we have enough already with IoK and TS, Push, Brut, Capsule to some extent, and Bridge to mop-up the rest. I mean, what more do you wish for lol?
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.