@Ace: if you're going for an artifact/value stompy strategy, have you considered going back to Glissa, the Traitor? She seems insane now with Walking Ballista and Push as cheap removal.
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I've mostly been lurking here for the last month or two and just took the deck to SCG Indy. I started off 5-1 and ended up tanking toward the end to miss out on day two. My local shop is a heavy tron meta, so it was nice taking this to a larger scene with some actual variety. It actually seemed really well positioned with what I was playing against (until the last few rounds). My match-ups were:
Bant Eldrazi (W: 2-0)
Boros Burn (W: 2-0. thank you, Trading Post)
Jeskai Control (W: 2-0)
Bant Eldrazi (W: 2-0)
Jund Death's Shadow (L: 1-2) Close games, definitely a winnable match-up.
Lantern Control (W: 2-1)
Jund Death's Shadow (L: 1-2)
RG Titanshift (L: 0-2) Bad match-up to knock me out of contention, but I was lucky to dodge a big mana deck for so long. Never played a dedicated Tron deck either which was great.
My list was essentially an all-in Whir package with the silver bullets (I can post the list, but again I'm basically a lurker - not sure how to format correctly and all that). Whir and Trading Post were all-stars the entire time. I even got to Whir for a Witchbane Orb with a bunch of Valakut triggers on the stack just to get shatterstormed the next turn and beaten to death by a titan.
Anyhow, just wanted to share because I think with a little bit of tighter play, I could have taken the Jund matches and day two'd. After that, who knows what. I think we're getting closer with this deck. I know some of the discussion lately has been to possibly steer away from the all-in whir plan, but it definitely seemed to be great for me this weekend. Just need to keep tweaking and get the mana base down. Also, I want to say thanks to everyone here too because it was only after lurking here for awhile that I picked up on all the great ideas everyone has had.
Cheers!
Edit: Just wanted to add something on the Jund Death's Shadow match-up. The games I lost were all due to them having multiple T1 and T2 discard spells to rip my hand apart. As has been discussed, Tezzerator top decks poorly. Protecting Bridge was never an issue, it was just having it pulled out of my hand and sometimes surgical'd that was a back-breaker. It almost makes me want to consider running leylines, which would also be beneficial for the Valakut decks. It might not be worth it, since I think it is a winnable match-up as it stands. Just something to note.
This is my current iteration. Trying to negate Stony Silence as much as possible after SB; the Herald's have been fantastic every game they come in. Biggest question marks remaining are Collective brutality, the 3rd sword, and inventors' fair. The SB Crucible and Surgical have also been questionable.
I actually fear ooze/rest in peace more than stony now.
@Ace: if you're going for an artifact/value stompy strategy, have you considered going back to Glissa, the Traitor? She seems insane now with Walking Ballista and Push as cheap removal.
That might be decent actually. I just don't like double green, so rough on the mana! But since blue is now only a splash maybe it is doable. I do like green for sideboard too. I'll try to figure it out, thanks!
EDIT: with green i could also consider tireless tracker maybe? A shame you can't sac the clues to thopter foundry, mmm...
I've messed around with lists similar to yours a lot, but I've found that the lack of early interaction just kills us against combo decks and even fast aggro decks if we don't draw a fatal push in time. Ive found a set of 4-5 inquisition/thoughtseize effects clutch so often against the entire field. Have you tried any discard packages or maybe even the new improvise mana leak?
Also, have you ever been able to cast spine of ish sah? It's the only artifact answer I can think of to stony silence, but its just so expensive.
I think it's a Meta-call. I'm definitely conceding to combo decks in favor of hosing interactive/midrange. If I was going the discard route I'd add TS/INQ/Liliana and cut whir/silver bullets while adding more surgicals in the board. That's actually my other version of this deck. I don't like counterspells in this deck. Blanking their hate cards is much more consistent then hoping to counter them and folding if you don't. I prefer to ignore stony silence which is why I dropped Darksteel citadel completely. Again, rest in peace has been the more crippling card against me.
Spine has been just ok so far but I need to get more testing with it. It's hard to cast against stony silence decks because I board out my mana rocks against them. I like it better against midrange/control as a catch-all. So far it feels too slow. I think it's better utilized in a Herald shell with Ichor wellspring/phyrexia's core style deck.
I think it's a Meta-call. I'm definitely conceding to combo decks in favor of hosing interactive/midrange. If I was going the discard route I'd add TS/INQ/Liliana and cut whir/silver bullets while adding more surgicals in the board. That's actually my other version of this deck. I don't like counterspells in this deck. Blanking their hate cards is much more consistent then hoping to counter them and folding if you don't. I prefer to ignore stony silence which is why I dropped Darksteel citadel completely. Again, rest in peace has been the more crippling card against me.
Spine has been just ok so far but I need to get more testing with it. It's hard to cast against stony silence decks because I board out my mana rocks against them. I like it better against midrange/control as a catch-all. So far it feels too slow. I think it's better utilized in a Herald shell with Ichor wellspring/phyrexia's core style deck.
Can you explain what you see as the "whir/silver bullets" package?
This gets thrown around a lot in this forum but I don't think we are all talking about the same thing.
I suspect most people running such a package (such as myself) aren't relying heavily on any silver bullets at all and use the powerful new tutor to increase consistency for the combo and access to bridge...
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Not directed at you BadMac, but i dont see how this small group of versatile artifacts is in anyway a disadvantage to this deck's game plan. Especially spellskite which is moreso a utility spell/survival tool and spellbomb which cantrips and can give you card advantage when combined with recursion.
When i see arguments against non-descript "silver bullets" in a whir build it kind of makes me scratch my head if this is what people are arguing against...
I can see an argument against including pentad prism as a bad late game draw (Similar to drawing a land in other control decks). But i dont understand the argument against versatile tutorable answers in a control deck...
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Not directed at you BadMac, but i dont see how this small group of versatile artifacts is in anyway a disadvantage to this deck's game plan. Especially spellskite which is moreso a utility spell/survival tool and spellbomb which cantrips and can give you card advantage when combined with recursion.
When i see arguments against non-descript "silver bullets" in a whir build it kind of makes me scratch my head if this is what people are arguing against...
I can see an argument against including pentad prism as a bad late game draw (Similar to drawing a land in other control decks). But i dont understand the argument against versatile tutorable answers in a control deck...
No one was arguing against the silver bullets in the deck. There's people on this forum that don't like whir and there's people that dont. Running silver bullets in the whir deck is a no brainer. The argument against running the whir package at all is valid, but playing 4 whir and not running silver bullets is probably not correct.
Okay thanks. Just some comments ive seen implied that "silver bullets" where what was bringing the whole build down. Seemed silly to me but if thats not what the consensus is then i agree. So far whir has won me several games i would have otherwise lost with previous builds. However its been a very difficult deck to master. Still working kn that
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Some people may play more than 3 bullets int he main, but I can tell you as innocuous as they look when you're up against burn paying 1B to cantrip a nihil spellbomb or 1 for a useless pithing needle is not where you want to be. Obviously cards are dead in different matchups and its a trade-off on which matches you need to shore up and where you can accept losing some %. Since putting fatal push in the deck I've gone on a run of like 80% matches where the card completely stinks - scapeshifts, trons, ad nauseums, grixis/jeskai control, etc. Doesn't mean fatal push MD is incorrect.
But when you have to run some removal, and then you add 3 bullets like this... boy does it ever feel lame facing something like krark clan ironworks combo drawing a spellskite, pithing needle, and 2 fatal push.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Some people may play more than 3 bullets int he main, but I can tell you as innocuous as they look when you're up against burn paying 1B to cantrip a nihil spellbomb or 1 for a useless pithing needle is not where you want to be. Obviously cards are dead in different matchups and its a trade-off on which matches you need to shore up and where you can accept losing some %. Since putting fatal push in the deck I've gone on a run of like 80% matches where the card completely stinks - scapeshifts, trons, ad nauseums, grixis/jeskai control, etc. Doesn't mean fatal push MD is incorrect.
But when you have to run some removal, and then you add 3 bullets like this... boy does it ever feel lame facing something like krark clan ironworks combo drawing a spellskite, pithing needle, and 2 fatal push.
Right, this is definitely a disadvantage, but I don't think it is more of a disadvantage than other control decks would have to deal with in these matchups.
For my experience push and discard have kept me in a lot more games than they have hindered my winning. Especially discard. I don't have much of any decks running around in my meta that do not run creatures that need blowing up... And I think that is characteristic of the "big" meta in modern right now. A lot of interactive creature - based decks running around. Take Death Shadow Zoo for example - wouldn't want to see that deck without push and/or some sort of discard in my opener.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
The changes from my GP list are found below. As always any questions comments or constructive criticism are welcome.
Cut the ramp down to 4 Prism
In an effort to solve the topdeck issue I discussed earlier, I have decided to cut down to 26 mana sources total. This is still a ton, but i'm happy with the results so far. I've found that running the hand disruption suit, coupled with the additions of liliana and Fatal push have allowed us to slow down the ramp a turn if need be.
Added the 4th Tez
This should have been a no brainer, card just wins games
Added 2 Liliana
This card is busted. It lets you use excess lands and does major work against Ad Naus, Tron and cheerios. This card is everything i've ever wanted for the deck and I can't see playing less than 2 in the future
Cut the sideboard Pithing Needle for phyrexian revoker
Sticking with the "Board in creatures when they board out removal" gameplan, I've found that revoker does a ton in matchups where needle is pretty mediocre, Namely: Lotus Bloom, Heritage Druid, and other important things that needle misses out on.
I think Trading Post could be a nice addition to the toolbox, as it is a late game mana sink that we are desperately missing. No other deck in the format runs this many mana sources without an on board sink. Jund has creature lands and scooze, Kiki Chord has creature lands, Grixis has Tasigur etc. And all these decks (Kiki Chord Exempted) have fewer mana sources than we do. Trading Post is abrupt decay proof and helps us mitigate this flood. Also I do not consider thopter sword to be a mana sink, as it just wins games. It doesn't fill the role that the deck needs.
I like how this list looks overall and will definitely test it myself. Without having tried it these would be my comments:
1. No Inventor's Fair? Is this not needed once you're on 4 whir? Because in my 2 whir list it was a godsend pretty much everytime I drew it letting me either bridge or assemble thopter/sword once I hit 5 mana. I personally played it over academy ruins, although there were definitely matches where I would have rather had ruins (anything with decay/kcommand basically).
2. 4 Tezz is too many. This is a card you almost never need more than one of, but usually want to see a copy of - that is the generic definition in Magic of when you play 3 copies of a card. I think cutting the 4th for a Trading Post is the obvious move? I haven't played post but it seems like it might be good enough in enough situations to warrant a slot MD?
3. Revoker v Needle - would have to try it but I am skeptical. Most opponents won't board out all their removal, they'll leave some way to answer Tezzeret 5/5s and decks won't cut things like Lightning Bolt. It does come down to what cards you're trying to stop but say you need to stop a nahiri - revoker is going to get bolt/helix'd even if they boarded out their paths whereas needle would force them to have wear/tear which is already taxed by everything else in our deck.
4. Do you basically always board on 3x echoing truth? I had a 1/1 split between MD and SB as a catch-all. Especially valuable in SB matches where it can bounce a leyline or stony silence for a turn, possibly even combo with discard to get rid of it permanently.
5. Did you try splashing one hallowed fountain and disenchants instead? you're at 6 fetches 4 prisms so splashing seems pretty trivial. Depending what echoing truth is trying to solve disenchant may just be stronger?
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I like how this list looks overall and will definitely test it myself. Without having tried it these would be my comments:
1. No Inventor's Fair? Is this not needed once you're on 4 whir? Because in my 2 whir list it was a godsend pretty much everytime I drew it letting me either bridge or assemble thopter/sword once I hit 5 mana. I personally played it over academy ruins, although there were definitely matches where I would have rather had ruins (anything with decay/kcommand basically).
2. 4 Tezz is too many. This is a card you almost never need more than one of, but usually want to see a copy of - that is the generic definition in Magic of when you play 3 copies of a card. I think cutting the 4th for a Trading Post is the obvious move? I haven't played post but it seems like it might be good enough in enough situations to warrant a slot MD?
3. Revoker v Needle - would have to try it but I am skeptical. Most opponents won't board out all their removal, they'll leave some way to answer Tezzeret 5/5s and decks won't cut things like Lightning Bolt. It does come down to what cards you're trying to stop but say you need to stop a nahiri - revoker is going to get bolt/helix'd even if they boarded out their paths whereas needle would force them to have wear/tear which is already taxed by everything else in our deck.
4. Do you basically always board on 3x echoing truth? I had a 1/1 split between MD and SB as a catch-all. Especially valuable in SB matches where it can bounce a leyline or stony silence for a turn, possibly even combo with discard to get rid of it permanently.
5. Did you try splashing one hallowed fountain and disenchants instead? you're at 6 fetches 4 prisms so splashing seems pretty trivial. Depending what echoing truth is trying to solve disenchant may just be stronger?
I'm actually thinking about cutting the Fair myself. It has been just too slow in whir lists to be effective. Also, post-board my artifact count usually lowers to the point where it basically reads as "Wastes." Also, the attrition matchups are arguably where we want the additional tutor the most and those matchups tend to keep me off metalcraft pretty consistently.
I completely agree, 4 tezz is too many. I'm currently at 1 MB 1 SB. Tezz eats all the bolts game 1 and I usually win with thopter anyways. Game 2-3 he does get significantly better.
Regarding revoker, it might be just useful enough to apply pressure to combo decks. Also, my herald/padeem/clique package has been nearly untouched post-board as I run just the 1 spellskite MB. I don't generally bring in clique against kolaghan decks and probably wouldn't bring revoker in either.
I really need another option against dedicated control decks (dispel/snare/leak/countesquall/cryptic). W/O academy in play, forcing threats into counterspells never works. Cryptic especially is a beating to tap blockers or bounce the lock for the lose. Any ideas?
I'm considering Defense Grid. Perhaps maybe a Cavern of Souls for Herald or even Boseju to replace Fair? Also, Slaughter Games naming cryptic as it is also effective against my worst matchups (big mana/combo decks). Maybe even Pearl Lake Trident or Sphinx of the final word? Anyone had any experience with these in the Whir list?
Couple games in with 4 whir and it feels like I realize all my worst fears about the deck. Getting 3 whirs in hand against a land destruction deck. Drawing prisms instead of talismans versus blood moon where a permanent source of UB would be miles better than a one shot of UU or BB. I boarded in herald of anguish in a match and had zero artifacts out on turn 4. Also just generally feels slower and like I'm getting my combo online after giving them a bunch of chances to draw their ancient grudge or scavenging oozes ><
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
R3 win 2-1 vs reckless bushwhacker zoo. G1 lost to hyper aggressive draw from my opponent. G2 I was able to survive the first wave and clear my opponent's board. Thopter foundry gained me enough life and put enough chumper for me to get to this point. Once on topdeck mode I just overpowered his weak draws. G3 similar to G2, but I drew into the sword of the meek combo which made the game impossible for my opponent to win.
So only 2 matches, not much of a tournament but it is what it is. I enjoyed servo schematic as a improvise enabler. Goes very well with thopter foundry and provides more utility than pentad prism (but I understand in whir version you need it because of UUU cost). Really impressed with the big demon and glad I play 3 copies now. Battle at the bridge was amazing and i'm very happy with them, but that is likely due to the aggro matchups I faced.
I know this isn't a speculative form, but I've heard many rumors of maybe Jace getting unbanned and reprinted in mm3. Seems doubtful to the extreme, but is this a card we woukd want to play? Just curious, cuz I know I would play two in the 75.
Dont want to spark an argument to too much talk about it but curious since the legacy version of this deck runs jace
I know this isn't a speculative form, but I've heard many rumors of maybe Jace getting unbanned and reprinted in mm3. Seems doubtful to the extreme, but is this a card we woukd want to play? Just curious, cuz I know I would play two in the 75.
Dont want to spark an argument to too much talk about it but curious since the legacy version of this deck runs jace
To keep it brief, I find myself wishing I could run 2, maybe 3 Mindsculptor somewhere in the 75. He does three things that are absolutely critical to our deck: 1) he attacks on an angle that's totally different from anything else our deck can do (and isn't interrupted by Bridge) without turning on our opponent's generally-dead removal, 2) he gives a ton of card advantage and selection, and 3) he gives us strong, repeatable interaction.
For the more traditional control shell, I'd much rather have a backup plan of 3 Tezz/2 Creepy/2 Mindsculptor than 4 Tezz (likely to have multiples)/2 Creepy (removal magnet)/2 Herald (flying removal magnet). So I expect we'd get a significant boost from him - more than your average reactive blue deck would get. He also gets along really well with Liliana of the Veil, giving us a super robust way of keeping the board clear.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
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OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Bant Eldrazi (W: 2-0)
Boros Burn (W: 2-0. thank you, Trading Post)
Jeskai Control (W: 2-0)
Bant Eldrazi (W: 2-0)
Jund Death's Shadow (L: 1-2) Close games, definitely a winnable match-up.
Lantern Control (W: 2-1)
Jund Death's Shadow (L: 1-2)
RG Titanshift (L: 0-2) Bad match-up to knock me out of contention, but I was lucky to dodge a big mana deck for so long. Never played a dedicated Tron deck either which was great.
My list was essentially an all-in Whir package with the silver bullets (I can post the list, but again I'm basically a lurker - not sure how to format correctly and all that). Whir and Trading Post were all-stars the entire time. I even got to Whir for a Witchbane Orb with a bunch of Valakut triggers on the stack just to get shatterstormed the next turn and beaten to death by a titan.
Anyhow, just wanted to share because I think with a little bit of tighter play, I could have taken the Jund matches and day two'd. After that, who knows what. I think we're getting closer with this deck. I know some of the discussion lately has been to possibly steer away from the all-in whir plan, but it definitely seemed to be great for me this weekend. Just need to keep tweaking and get the mana base down. Also, I want to say thanks to everyone here too because it was only after lurking here for awhile that I picked up on all the great ideas everyone has had.
Cheers!
Edit: Just wanted to add something on the Jund Death's Shadow match-up. The games I lost were all due to them having multiple T1 and T2 discard spells to rip my hand apart. As has been discussed, Tezzerator top decks poorly. Protecting Bridge was never an issue, it was just having it pulled out of my hand and sometimes surgical'd that was a back-breaker. It almost makes me want to consider running leylines, which would also be beneficial for the Valakut decks. It might not be worth it, since I think it is a winnable match-up as it stands. Just something to note.
1x Bottled Cloister
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Expedition Map
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Mox Opal
4x Pentad Prism
1x Executioner's Capsule
1x Trading Post
3x Thopter Foundry
3x Sword of the Meek
2x Welding jar
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Spellskite
Planeswalkers
2x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Instants
4x Fatal Push
4x Whir of Invention
1x Collective Brutality
Lands
4x Polluted Delta
3x Watery Grave
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Underground River
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Inventors' Fair
1x Academy Ruins
3x Island
1x Swamp
3x Herald of Anguish
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1x Pithing Needle
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Sun Droplet
1x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
This is my current iteration. Trying to negate Stony Silence as much as possible after SB; the Herald's have been fantastic every game they come in. Biggest question marks remaining are Collective brutality, the 3rd sword, and inventors' fair. The SB Crucible and Surgical have also been questionable.
I actually fear ooze/rest in peace more than stony now.
That might be decent actually. I just don't like double green, so rough on the mana! But since blue is now only a splash maybe it is doable. I do like green for sideboard too. I'll try to figure it out, thanks!
EDIT: with green i could also consider tireless tracker maybe? A shame you can't sac the clues to thopter foundry, mmm...
I've messed around with lists similar to yours a lot, but I've found that the lack of early interaction just kills us against combo decks and even fast aggro decks if we don't draw a fatal push in time. Ive found a set of 4-5 inquisition/thoughtseize effects clutch so often against the entire field. Have you tried any discard packages or maybe even the new improvise mana leak?
Also, have you ever been able to cast spine of ish sah? It's the only artifact answer I can think of to stony silence, but its just so expensive.
Spine has been just ok so far but I need to get more testing with it. It's hard to cast against stony silence decks because I board out my mana rocks against them. I like it better against midrange/control as a catch-all. So far it feels too slow. I think it's better utilized in a Herald shell with Ichor wellspring/phyrexia's core style deck.
Can you explain what you see as the "whir/silver bullets" package?
This gets thrown around a lot in this forum but I don't think we are all talking about the same thing.
I suspect most people running such a package (such as myself) aren't relying heavily on any silver bullets at all and use the powerful new tutor to increase consistency for the combo and access to bridge...
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
Other options which I personally play in the SB: grafdigger's cage, welding jar, and witchbane orb. I suppose torpor orb would work too although I havent touched it personally.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
When i see arguments against non-descript "silver bullets" in a whir build it kind of makes me scratch my head if this is what people are arguing against...
I can see an argument against including pentad prism as a bad late game draw (Similar to drawing a land in other control decks). But i dont understand the argument against versatile tutorable answers in a control deck...
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
No one was arguing against the silver bullets in the deck. There's people on this forum that don't like whir and there's people that dont. Running silver bullets in the whir deck is a no brainer. The argument against running the whir package at all is valid, but playing 4 whir and not running silver bullets is probably not correct.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
But when you have to run some removal, and then you add 3 bullets like this... boy does it ever feel lame facing something like krark clan ironworks combo drawing a spellskite, pithing needle, and 2 fatal push.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Right, this is definitely a disadvantage, but I don't think it is more of a disadvantage than other control decks would have to deal with in these matchups.
For my experience push and discard have kept me in a lot more games than they have hindered my winning. Especially discard. I don't have much of any decks running around in my meta that do not run creatures that need blowing up... And I think that is characteristic of the "big" meta in modern right now. A lot of interactive creature - based decks running around. Take Death Shadow Zoo for example - wouldn't want to see that deck without push and/or some sort of discard in my opener.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
1x Academy Ruins
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Darksteel Citadel
2x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
3x Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Sunken Ruins
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
2x Glint-Nest Crane
1x Spellskite
Artifacts
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Nihil Spellbomb
4x Pentad Prism
1x Pithing Needle
2x Sword of the Meek
3x Thopter Foundry
1x Welding Jar
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
3x Fatal Push
4x Whir of Invention
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Damnation
3x Echoing Truth
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Herald of Anguish
1x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Thoughtseize
1x Witchbane Orb
The changes from my GP list are found below. As always any questions comments or constructive criticism are welcome.
Cut the ramp down to 4 Prism
In an effort to solve the topdeck issue I discussed earlier, I have decided to cut down to 26 mana sources total. This is still a ton, but i'm happy with the results so far. I've found that running the hand disruption suit, coupled with the additions of liliana and Fatal push have allowed us to slow down the ramp a turn if need be.
Added the 4th Tez
This should have been a no brainer, card just wins games
Added 2 Liliana
This card is busted. It lets you use excess lands and does major work against Ad Naus, Tron and cheerios. This card is everything i've ever wanted for the deck and I can't see playing less than 2 in the future
Cut the sideboard Pithing Needle for phyrexian revoker
Sticking with the "Board in creatures when they board out removal" gameplan, I've found that revoker does a ton in matchups where needle is pretty mediocre, Namely: Lotus Bloom, Heritage Druid, and other important things that needle misses out on.
I think Trading Post could be a nice addition to the toolbox, as it is a late game mana sink that we are desperately missing. No other deck in the format runs this many mana sources without an on board sink. Jund has creature lands and scooze, Kiki Chord has creature lands, Grixis has Tasigur etc. And all these decks (Kiki Chord Exempted) have fewer mana sources than we do. Trading Post is abrupt decay proof and helps us mitigate this flood. Also I do not consider thopter sword to be a mana sink, as it just wins games. It doesn't fill the role that the deck needs.
1. No Inventor's Fair? Is this not needed once you're on 4 whir? Because in my 2 whir list it was a godsend pretty much everytime I drew it letting me either bridge or assemble thopter/sword once I hit 5 mana. I personally played it over academy ruins, although there were definitely matches where I would have rather had ruins (anything with decay/kcommand basically).
2. 4 Tezz is too many. This is a card you almost never need more than one of, but usually want to see a copy of - that is the generic definition in Magic of when you play 3 copies of a card. I think cutting the 4th for a Trading Post is the obvious move? I haven't played post but it seems like it might be good enough in enough situations to warrant a slot MD?
3. Revoker v Needle - would have to try it but I am skeptical. Most opponents won't board out all their removal, they'll leave some way to answer Tezzeret 5/5s and decks won't cut things like Lightning Bolt. It does come down to what cards you're trying to stop but say you need to stop a nahiri - revoker is going to get bolt/helix'd even if they boarded out their paths whereas needle would force them to have wear/tear which is already taxed by everything else in our deck.
4. Do you basically always board on 3x echoing truth? I had a 1/1 split between MD and SB as a catch-all. Especially valuable in SB matches where it can bounce a leyline or stony silence for a turn, possibly even combo with discard to get rid of it permanently.
5. Did you try splashing one hallowed fountain and disenchants instead? you're at 6 fetches 4 prisms so splashing seems pretty trivial. Depending what echoing truth is trying to solve disenchant may just be stronger?
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I'm actually thinking about cutting the Fair myself. It has been just too slow in whir lists to be effective. Also, post-board my artifact count usually lowers to the point where it basically reads as "Wastes." Also, the attrition matchups are arguably where we want the additional tutor the most and those matchups tend to keep me off metalcraft pretty consistently.
I completely agree, 4 tezz is too many. I'm currently at 1 MB 1 SB. Tezz eats all the bolts game 1 and I usually win with thopter anyways. Game 2-3 he does get significantly better.
Regarding revoker, it might be just useful enough to apply pressure to combo decks. Also, my herald/padeem/clique package has been nearly untouched post-board as I run just the 1 spellskite MB. I don't generally bring in clique against kolaghan decks and probably wouldn't bring revoker in either.
I really need another option against dedicated control decks (dispel/snare/leak/countesquall/cryptic). W/O academy in play, forcing threats into counterspells never works. Cryptic especially is a beating to tap blockers or bounce the lock for the lose. Any ideas?
I'm considering Defense Grid. Perhaps maybe a Cavern of Souls for Herald or even Boseju to replace Fair? Also, Slaughter Games naming cryptic as it is also effective against my worst matchups (big mana/combo decks). Maybe even Pearl Lake Trident or Sphinx of the final word? Anyone had any experience with these in the Whir list?
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
4 hangarback walker
4 glint-nest crane
4 scrap trawler
3 herald of anguish
Artifacts: 14
2 nihil spellbomb
2 executioner's capsule
4 thopter foundry
2 sword of the meek
2 ratchet bomb
2 servo schematic
instants: 4
4 fatal push
2 battle at the bridge
planeswalkers: 1
1 Tezzeret, agent of bolas
Lands: 24
4 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
2 watery grave
1 island
4 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 drowned catacomb
4 darksteel citadel
1 inventors' fair
1 academy ruins
2 battle at the bridge
2 drown in sorrow
2 monastery siege
2 echoing truth
1 trinket mage
2 pithing needle
2 aether spellbomb
2 welding jar
Barely a tezzeret deck anymore, but still posting here.
Went 3-0
R1 bye
R2 win 2-0 vs grixis delver of secrets/death's shadow hybrid. G1 got a lot of removal. Battle of the bridge was able to kill gurmag angler + lots of lifegain, won with scrap trawler beatdown + herald of anguish to finish the job. G2 multiple Hangackback walkers were lefted unchecked and won me the game.
R3 win 2-1 vs reckless bushwhacker zoo. G1 lost to hyper aggressive draw from my opponent. G2 I was able to survive the first wave and clear my opponent's board. Thopter foundry gained me enough life and put enough chumper for me to get to this point. Once on topdeck mode I just overpowered his weak draws. G3 similar to G2, but I drew into the sword of the meek combo which made the game impossible for my opponent to win.
So only 2 matches, not much of a tournament but it is what it is. I enjoyed servo schematic as a improvise enabler. Goes very well with thopter foundry and provides more utility than pentad prism (but I understand in whir version you need it because of UUU cost). Really impressed with the big demon and glad I play 3 copies now. Battle at the bridge was amazing and i'm very happy with them, but that is likely due to the aggro matchups I faced.
Dont want to spark an argument to too much talk about it but curious since the legacy version of this deck runs jace
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To keep it brief, I find myself wishing I could run 2, maybe 3 Mindsculptor somewhere in the 75. He does three things that are absolutely critical to our deck: 1) he attacks on an angle that's totally different from anything else our deck can do (and isn't interrupted by Bridge) without turning on our opponent's generally-dead removal, 2) he gives a ton of card advantage and selection, and 3) he gives us strong, repeatable interaction.
For the more traditional control shell, I'd much rather have a backup plan of 3 Tezz/2 Creepy/2 Mindsculptor than 4 Tezz (likely to have multiples)/2 Creepy (removal magnet)/2 Herald (flying removal magnet). So I expect we'd get a significant boost from him - more than your average reactive blue deck would get. He also gets along really well with Liliana of the Veil, giving us a super robust way of keeping the board clear.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon