More challenges: wouldn't you rather play a third Shackles (almost guaranteed you see one each game) then MB Trading post? 2x Esper charms in the sideboard looks curious to me. Why Relic over Spellbomb?
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
You know i like post, so if there's a chance it can be good i'll try and play it. When i get the cards and can test the deck i might replace post for 3rd shackles if it underperforms.
The esper charms in the board are here in part as a counter tech vs stony silence (see first mode) for whenever i play vs white. They are also an excellent choice vs tron decks (discard mode) or slower decks.
Relic vs spellbomb is an old debate. With trading post back and lingering souls, spellbomb might better but i like relic vs goyfs. I might make the switch back to nihil spellbomb, good remark.
@Ace: Another card I contemplated if I ran white is Sunbeam Spellbomb. Especially since I could fetch it with a Trinket Mage. I like that it doesnt shuffle in your entire gy like Elixir of Immortality.
Maybe you could try -1 Timely and -1 Relic for:
+1 Trinket Mage
+1 Sunbeam Spellbomb
For the burn match ups.
It's also recurrable with Academy Ruins.
...if its full of burn its not as good (talking about Trading Post)
Well, I don't agree. Against Burn you dodge Eidolon and if you already made it to 5 mana instantly get 4 life. It's like Batterskull from there. Most games against burn I make it to 4+ mana and can i.e. slam Tezzeret (which is a must kill threat if you survive one more turn) or Damnation. These cards dodge Eidolon which is often a huge thing! Until I get 4 mana -> Mana Leak, Spellskite, EE, Discard.
Right now I'm testing the mana-rock-less list, too. I added 2 Shackles and removed Tar Pit to ensure discard or visions T1. I want to be able to play my 4 drop everytime I reach 4 lands! Right now I'm on 13 Island (including fetch) which is ok for 2 Shackles imo. Most of the time 2,3 Islands in play should be enough to sneak something. Reaching Goyf seems hard anyway. 4 Islands is the desired number concerning Rhino and Tasigur. Against Twin 2 is more or less gg if one plays concentrated.
I don't tested it much since now, we'll see.
Turn 1 -> Do whatever
Turn 2 -> Mana Rock
Turn 3 -> Trading Post w/ 1 mana open
This is the only time that trading post might be good against burn... and you've spent 3 turns to gain 4 life. If you arent almost dead (Even with 4 life) the burn player had a bad draw/keep. The consistent lifegain is nice, but the fact its so slow is not.
It works better against aggro because you trade 1 life to block a 3/3 (or bigger) creature, the aggro decks wont start pressuring your life total relevantly untill turn 3-4 at the earliest. Burn will have you dead by turn 3-4 fairly consistently.
Instead of trading post perhaps that would be a nice slot for monastery siege or some other taxation. Siege offers upside against control too, as well as filtering in various matchups.
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
What do you guys think of Kuldotha Forgemaster? Tutor a bomb like Blightsteel Colossus for exemple and get rid of your Ensnaring Bridge at the same time, If they dont have a path, they most probably lose. I find it pretty neat considering we should be able to achieve 3 artifacts (including kuldotha) as a minimum requirement pretty easily in this type of deck. It does not have haste but it still has 5 toughness so it may also die to dismember, would the solution be Lightning Greaves? I think the card has serious potential and im probably going to try em out myself. Im also on the shackles plan, getting pathed hurts alot less than usual
other than bolts, I was trying a terminate and have been debating on a couple electrolyze, but the main reason I'm testing out red is for blood moon/magus ofthe moon. only been able to do some good fishing and hope to test against people this weekend. here is the list at the moment
I play the UB version in legacy and love it. trying to port it into modern. I'm sure the deck needs a lily and damnation but this is my first draft. I feel it needs more artifacts too. would be nice to sneak in a galvanic or shrapnel blast in the list. but I'm open to all suggestions thanks.
I'm about to post a list I've been hacking away at for the past two months or so. This list is built on a U/B Tezzeret Control shell, but underwent some significant changes on the way such that the deck looks much different now, and is arguably no longer a control deck. There are reasons I made these changes, and I'll get into those below, but to summarize the main two:
1./ U/B Tezz Control felt too slow sometimes. I wanted to give a faster clock and way to close out the game.
2./ The list I (and most on this forum, from what I can tell) built on was Shota Yasooka's 2014 Modern Pro Tour list, which did not have access to certain appealing cards that have since been released.
So with those two points made, let me get the list up, and then talk specifically about some of the card choices, and what has and has not performed well for me in testing.
Alright, so hopefully you don't have to look at the list for too long to figure out what's going on here. An army of indestructible 5/5 creatures has proven, time and again, to be something my opponents aren't prepared to kill. That said, here are some comments on specific card choices and things to watch out for:
Top 5 Cards to Avoid (this is game one, obviously people will have spiteful stuff post board):
1./ Path to Exile & Dismember - While most removal is dead against our threats, these are obviously live. The way to play around them is to use IoK to dig into their hand and clear the way, and then have Stubborn Denial around to protect your resolved threats. I'd also like to quickly add at this point that Stubborn Denial is perhaps both the most important card and the biggest revelation in the deck. Patrick Chapin's pro tour efforts might not have shown it, but Stubborn Denial was a hidden gem in his list, and it has consistently over-performed for me in this deck. Meeting the ferocious condition is very easy, since all of your non man-land threats meet the criteria, and even being able to just Force Spike people can be great, especially if used on turn one on the play to counter your opponent on the draw from hitting you with targeted discard.
2./ Liliana of the Veil - I haven't played against Lilly much with this deck yet, but she also can answer our big threats. Top ways to beat her are: make them discard her early, counter her before she comes down, Damnation a board with an indestructible threat on your side to swing through and clean up, or use your man lands to pressure her and potentially speed that effort up with Darksteel Axe. The Axe is mostly there as an Ensoul target, Tezz target, or to be a good Phylactery counter holder, but it is also relevant surprisingly often as a piece of equipment. Equipping the man lands is great, and sometimes your creatures need the extra 2 power to win a ground fight through a Wurmcoil Engine or something.
3./ Blood Moon - The worst. Not gonna lie, if they stick this, unless you're pretty far ahead on board, you're not likely to win. Our 6 mana rocks do give us some chance of not being locked out, but it's definitely uphill. The deck only plays two basics, and doesn't run any fetches. That decision is motivated by a desire to take less damage from our mana base, and since we don't take any and our threats are big and cheap, we actually have a really good shot at racing burn in game one. The two basics in the deck are actually a concession to how good Path is against us as a removal spell, and helps mitigate the downside.
4./ Cryptic Command - Because of the way the threats in the deck come together, Cryptic's bounce mode can often set up some gross 2 or 3 for 1 scenarios where they bounce whatever artifact you have Ensouled, or bounce whatever artifact is holding your Phylactery Counter. IoK also can't get it, but at least sees it coming. All I can offer here is that Stubborn Denial is amazing against this card, and you should hope to draw a copy before you get Cryptic'd. The one thing I'll say about Cryptic Command is that the times at which it tends to be cast are predictable, so even if you don't know they have it, if you think they do you can often set up situations where you can use Stubborn Denial's Force Spike mode to deal with it, since people seem to have no problem tapping out on turn 4 if they don't know about your denials yet.
5./ Ugin, the Spirit Dragon - So I never even thought about this card until I played against it, but Ugin is gross because while almost every other sweeper in the game is irrelevant against our indestructible legion, Ugin can easily eat all of your Ensouls, Liches, and Tezzerets. More frustratingly, though, you often can't take a line that plays around both Karn AND Ugin. Karn makes you want to play redundant threats in case he comes down to exile the first, and Ugin makes you want to sandbag threats because when he comes down he'll eat everything. Only your man-lands and Tezz'd threats are safe. Plan accordingly.
That's where the deck is now. Here are some changes I've currently got in mind for the main deck:
+2 Darksteel Relic / -2 Darksteel Axe
I was pretty averse to Relic when I was first researching the list because it seems extremely 'do nothing' without the synergizing components. At least Axe is relevant in cases where equipping it is good. However, the cards making me rethink my assessment are Mox Opal, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Stubborn Denial. By getting out a Relic on turn one, for free, instead of having to decide whether to play the Axe or cast/leave up disruption, I'm more likely to have hands that let me curve a turn one disruption spell into turn 2 Ensoul, swing. I also like this option because getting our indestructible targets onto zero on our curve instead of one makes Chalice of the Void more viable as a sideboard card, which is something I've been playing with the idea of for decks like Burn, Affinity, Storm, and Zoo.
It occurs to me that this also leads to the nut draw of: Darksteel Citadel, Mox Opal, Darksteel Relic, and Ensoul Artifact. This deck already has explosive draws, but by adding this I get the terrifying T1: "Citadel, Opal, Relic, Ensoul Relic, go."
Now imagine the remaining 3 cards in your hand are land, Stubborn Denial, Thirst for Knowledge. I don't see how that hand loses.
+4 Ghost Quarter, +1 or 2 Crucible of Worlds / -4 Blinkmoth Nexus, -1 or 2 Artifacts (not sure which)
Blinkmoth is great, sometimes it's my MVP. However, I really wish I had a good way to not get rolled over by Tron. If I were to make this change, I'd also totally shake up the mana base to enable myself to recur fetches for whatever value that entailed. I'd probably also find room for Vedalken Shackles somewhere at the same time, although I think that would lead down the road to a much different deck. I don't know, but it seems good. Maybe I can get away with using Fulminator Mage for those purposes instead?
-2 to 4 Inquisition of Kozilek / +2 to 4 Thoughtseize
The question is simple but I don't know the answer: in the current meta, is being able to hit Cryptic, Twin, Rhino, Become Immense, and Karn/Ugin (mostly) more important than not taking 2 (or more) damage against decks like Scapeshift, Burn, Zoo, Affinity, or other highly aggressive archetypes?
Bonus Round!
Find room for the singleton Rapid Hybridization in this deck, because it is both a sweet removal spell nobody expects, and you can also get awesome value on defense by targeting your own indestructible threats for 1 mana 3/3s at instant speed!
Anyhow, that's all I've got to say on the deck for the time being. I'd look forward to whatever input you folks have on cards I may not have considered or properly analyzed.
@Soundreason: I dig it. You know your chops, and I've not seen such a detailed first post write-up since Swiftcreek. Phylactery Lich, yeah buoy. I've always wondered why this hulk hasn't smashed its way onto the scene. Agree that stubborn denial is a wrecking ball, and I wonder if your deck might benefit by one more large creature: Tasigur - although the speed at which you fill your GY is questionable. My overall concern is the addition of Darksteel Axe/Darksteel Relic along with Ensoul Artifact because they have very little worth on their own. To your point, this is part of your overall Shouta-themed whole hog approach. Similarly, you have correctly identified the (5) foil cards to fear, particularly Liliana and Path.
I am concerned about your artifact count: 13. This doesn't come close to justifying Mox Opal, nevermind 2 of them. And, it's overall too little to reliably run a Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas on the draw function by about 5 cards. Again, I get that you are doing a very, very focused attack deck theme, so digging isn't your thing. I guess you can kind of look at this deck as a version of artifact attack -- Affinity. Ultimately, the question to ask is, "is this a better deck than affinity?" I honestly don't know. Their primary trick is Cranial Plating and Arcbound Ravager for explosive attack potential, while you're going with a stout 5/5 attack. Your advantage is the sideboard and more adaptable suite of spells.
@Sasky: I love what you're working on! The Caleb deck's evolution is something I'm keenly interested in (reminds me of my Godzilla! mechanic), and it seems as though you've got some very sound insights. The idea of turn 3 explosion with a lot of redundancies seems airtight, but when you said that it may not be as good as the vanilla deck. My overall question, and this is something that Sled_Dog made mention of, "how hard is this deck to pilot?" Is it prohibitive? Do you know of some good websites that can serve as tutors or a roadmap of what kind of package to pull out when you Gifts Ungiven?
Woa. One Snapcaster mage list, and one Phylactery & Ensoul list. What a day! First thoughts:
@Offtheropes:
- Total artifact count is 20 [High]. Land count is 20 [Low, but 4 Probes makes up for it]. Mana-rock count is 5 [High, given your curve]. Opal count is 3 [Very high].
- Despite your list being spell-heavy, you surprisingly play zero countermagic in the main.
- Etched champion has been tried out a couple of times, and has always been cut. Altough his protection feature's got a certain appeal, he's kind of slow of a clock. And don't forget that if his protection is on, he can't be targeted by Tezzeret.
- Full four Probes and 5 discard spells is a lot of info. Note: they aren't that great of a top-deck in the late-game. And make Snapcaster mage «meh» targets.
- Also, I *think* Blood moon makes Citadel retain the Artifact subtype, but lose Indestructibility. Just a tiny nonbo.
- No Spellskite?
Cards I suggest you consider: for a clock, Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Also, for a clock and disruption power: Vendilion Clique. Curving-out catch-all while tempo-positive: Mana leak. Setting-up and cantripping, instead of overloading on Probes: Serum Visions. Also a better topdeck. And if you play the high artifact-count game, some Galvanic blast could work.
@Soundreason:
Just some thinking out loud: I find your idea of including Darksteel relic interesting. While we're talking Trinkets and Eggs, have you considered Mishra's Bauble? Nihil Spellbomb also unconditionally cantrips for B. I could see you explore in that direction: cantrips allow you to cut back on the land count a bit, and them eggs could play the double-duty of [whatever their function] & having a built-in removal damping. Though this specific line somehow sounds very dynamic and fun, I'm not convinced that it can prove competitive, however.
If I was to give my best-est spike advice for your list, I'd also advise you to play sure-value cards and cards that have proven the best for aggression, in my experience. 2x Mana leak would deal with stuff you don't have a lot of interaction with and would make people try to play around. Then, 2x Vendillion Clique because it's disruption or card selection AND a beater ... Both, along Stubborn Denial and Thirst for Knowledge, will allow very strong instant-speed plays to back up your plan or to buy you time to get there. Some cheap Serum visions could also set you up nicely, topped-off with a couple of Tasigoyf, as one undercosted beater and source of card advantage. If you like tricks, Clique and Tasigur can sit in the SB, coming in for game 2 when they've sided all their useless removal out and brought the artifact destruction in.
It'll be hard to get enough island plays to fuel Shackles AND while getting BBB for the Lich in time.
EDIT: @Raystack is right. 13 is not enough!
Cheers guys, keep it up. This is all very exciting!
@Soundreason: I dig it. You know your chops, and I've not seen such a detailed first post write-up since Swiftcreek. Phylactery Lich, yeah buoy. I've always wondered why this hulk hasn't smashed its way onto the scene. Agree that stubborn denial is a wrecking ball, and I wonder if your deck might benefit by one more large creature: Tasigur - although the speed at which you fill your GY is questionable. My overall concern is the addition of Darksteel Axe/Darksteel Relic along with Ensoul Artifact because they have very little worth on their own. To your point, this is part of your overall Shouta-themed whole hog approach. Similarly, you have correctly identified the (5) foil cards to fear, particularly Liliana and Path.
I am concerned about your artifact count: 13. This doesn't come close to justifying Mox Opal, nevermind 2 of them. And, it's overall too little to reliably run a Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas on the draw function by about 5 cards. Again, I get that you are doing a very, very focused attack deck theme, so digging isn't your thing. I guess you can kind of look at this deck as a version of artifact attack -- Affinity. Ultimately, the question to ask is, "is this a better deck than affinity?" I honestly don't know. Their primary trick is Cranial Plating and Arcbound Ravager for explosive attack potential, while you're going with a stout 5/5 attack. Your advantage is the sideboard and more adaptable suite of spells.
Thanks for the feedback, Raystack. I've definitely thought about the things you brought up as concerns, so here's how I got to the current version of the list:
Artifact Count
Part of the issue here is tied to the linearity of the deck - because the archetype requires multiple two-card synergies to function, the deck has lots of 'mandatory' card slots (threats require artifacts to enable them and vice-versa), keeping room for utility cards low. However, some of those utility cards are also 'mandatory' in the sense that they are required in order to interact with what others are doing in the meta-game (spot removal, hand disruption, and counters). Incidentally, this also makes sideboarding very challenging, as you only have a few slots that can be adjusted for any given match up.
Because of how aggressively this list plays, I'd say 4 out of 5 times I play Tezz I'm using his -1 to make another 5/5 and keep the stream of threats flowing. Unlike the more controlling version of the deck where he is a good source of card advantage and can find specific pieces to lock or hate your opponent, in this deck Tezz is here as a resilient source of threats who happens to be able to dig in a pinch on an even board.
This list is in flux, and in the version of the main-deck immediately prior to this one had +2 Spellskite, -2 Damnation, with Damnation having been moved to the board. This helped with an artifact count of 15 (that is my target number for the deck, I think you can't go higher without sacrificing core elements), but ultimately I decided that Damnation was able to get me more value in the match ups I was expecting.
Also, the artifact count is more like 17 than 13. I know this is kind of cheating, but I count the Blinkmoths because there are times when I can activate them to make a Mox live, which is a little like filtering a mana. Not ideal, but it works.
However, you are right to note that it is sometimes difficult to meet the metalcraft requirement for Mox Opal, which leads you to consider the following when looking at a hand: if you kept a Mox Opal but can't find the third artifact to enable metalcraft, do you run Mox Opal onto the table? This might seem like giving away information, but it is free to get it on board now, and depending on the board state it could represent a 'hasty' 5/5 threat on any subsequent turn off of an Ensoul or Tezzeret either in hand or off the top of the deck. Seeing the in hand situations are easy, but it's important to play to the top-deck, too.
Why not Affinity?
A few reasons. The main thing here is just that Affinity isn't my play style because it doesn't involve enough active disruption and interaction. Affinity doesn't interact so much as go wide and race. This deck is built more to go deep and interact, if that makes sense.
I also think this deck offers unique angles of attack that trump what Affinity can do, including being able to play a sweeper onto your own creature filled board and then attack anyway.
Finally, playing this version of an aggressive artifact deck strands many more 'dead' cards with your opponents than playing Affinity would. Their Bolts and Electrolyzes can't remove your threats (unless you're sloppy with man-land activations). Any of their 'destroy' effects are dead, and many of their stronger sideboard cards for the matchup (Ancient Grudge, Shatter Storm, Creeping Corrosion, Stony Silence, Pyroclasm, Drown in Sorrow, Night of Souls' Betrayal, Curse of Death's Hold, etc.) are all less good and/or dead in the match up.
By the way, since you took time to reply, any specific thoughts on IoK vs. Thoughtseize? Right now that's the main thing I'm going over in my mind as for which I'd rather be using game 1, or if I should run a split.
Edit: Didn't see Radouf's reply until after I'd written my first response -
I thought about Mana Leak a little bit, and I think I've found myself being more tempted by its little brother, Spell Pierce. There isn't really any single creature I can think of that I'm afraid of if it resolves, so being able to have a more mana efficient soft counter means it can allow me to keep protection available and curve into a threat a turn earlier than Leak would. I'm thinking about some number of Spell Pierce in the board, and have also considered Dispel for similar reasons. Perhaps a 1 and 1 split in the board would be good. I also like how efficient Spell Snare is, but I'm not sure there are enough 2 mana cards I actually care about. I tend to be more worried about 1, 3, and 4.
Vendilion Clique is a card I had thought about in very early list versions, but haven't thought much about since. I'm pretty sure I could find room for one or two in the sideboard, since that part is far from nailed down now anyway. I think it would be especially good against opposing Blood Moon decks, and probably also helps with Tron.
Serum Visions I did think about this, but I keep coming back to needing my cards to do something themselves, as opposed to finding me cards that do something. Thirst for Knowledge meets this requirement because it is a source of real card advantage, not just selection. That said, in some ways this deck is a combo deck, so having the ability to dig is somewhat appealing, I just don't think the benefits outweigh the risks of cutting the cards in the slots it would need to occupy.
You're right that Shackles and Lich don't play nicely together, which is why I think a rebuild would be in order if I tried to go that route. More fetchlands, shocklands, still Urborgs... I just don't think it can do what this deck does anymore at that point.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang out of the SB sounds pretty appealing, actually. I like the argument that he's good once they board out their dead removal, although I do think that by virtue of his 5 toughness he still already didn't die to a lot of those cards anyway. Still, having an additional source of cards if a game goes long could be beneficial.
If I try to up my artifact count, I think I start by cutting a land back down to 22 and finding a cheap bauble or one mana artifact to fill the slot, like another Darksteel Relic.
By the way, since you took time to reply, any specific thoughts on IoK vs. Thoughtseize? Right now that's the main thing I'm going over in my mind as for which I'd rather be using game 1, or if I should run a split.
Beyond the obvious advantage of conserving life, what do you specifically fear for cards that exceed 3 mana? You get your liliana and path to exile with IoK. Lately, I've been running hard on Inquisition of Kozilek over thoughtseize. A 10% loss of life with a Seize is nothing to sneeze at. I'd prob do 3/1. But, it's a coinflip.
Step one:
- Run at least 3 Torpor Orb so you can have 1 out by turn 2 or 3.
Step 2:
- Drop Eater of Days or Hunted Horror, ignoring their draw back conditions due to orb.
step 3:
- Smash face
@Soundreason, cool deck I Love all the interactions. Which led me to thinking about this left field idea. I would probably just run a full playset of Torpor Orb for it.
Game plan would consist of early turns getting the orb in to play and dropping big threats for cheap without the drawbacks, then while your opponent is exhausting his answers on the big stuff, follow in with Tezzeret and begin turning those Torpor Orb in to 5/5 beaters for the second wave. Orbs are doing double duty, tezzeret is protected behind his jank army. If it's worth pursuing I'll come up with a possible list
Also:
There's Leveler, but it has no battle tricks like trample/flying
Step one:
- Run at least 3 Torpor Orb so you can have 1 out by turn 2 or 3.
Step 2:
- Drop Eater of Days or Hunted Horror, ignoring their draw back conditions due to orb.
step 3:
- Smash face
@Soundreason, cool deck I Love all the interactions. Which led me to thinking about this. Infact, I would probably go ahead a run a full playset of Torpor Orb.
Game plan would be spending the early turns getting the orb in to play and dropping big treats for cheap without the drawbacks, then while your opponent is exhausting his answers on the big stuff, follow in with Tezzeret and begin turning those Torpor Orb in to 5/5 beaters for the second wave. Orbs are doing double duty, tezzeret is protected behind his jank army. If it's worth pursuing I'll come up with a possible list
I believe there's a deck built around that called "Torpor Beef" somewhere on this forum in deck creation. However, I don't think it runs Eater of Days which as an artifact is better here. I just wish Orb had any power against the aggro decks in the format. I think it would be hilarious to take a build with Orb and Eater of Days to an FNM though, you're guaranteed to get some funny wins and some frustrated opponents.
Well I figured it was probably obvious enough to be used elsewhere, hadn't seen it mentioned here yet. It could be entertaining using it inside a Tezzeret shell, which provides back up support, and an alternate use for the orbs/artifacts that some lists already run. Definitely on the FNM level of thinking, but that's where I am right now.
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More challenges: wouldn't you rather play a third Shackles (almost guaranteed you see one each game) then MB Trading post? 2x Esper charms in the sideboard looks curious to me. Why Relic over Spellbomb?
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
The esper charms in the board are here in part as a counter tech vs stony silence (see first mode) for whenever i play vs white. They are also an excellent choice vs tron decks (discard mode) or slower decks.
Relic vs spellbomb is an old debate. With trading post back and lingering souls, spellbomb might better but i like relic vs goyfs. I might make the switch back to nihil spellbomb, good remark.
Maybe you could try -1 Timely and -1 Relic for:
+1 Trinket Mage
+1 Sunbeam Spellbomb
For the burn match ups.
It's also recurrable with Academy Ruins.
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Turn 1 -> Do whatever
Turn 2 -> Mana Rock
Turn 3 -> Trading Post w/ 1 mana open
This is the only time that trading post might be good against burn... and you've spent 3 turns to gain 4 life. If you arent almost dead (Even with 4 life) the burn player had a bad draw/keep. The consistent lifegain is nice, but the fact its so slow is not.
It works better against aggro because you trade 1 life to block a 3/3 (or bigger) creature, the aggro decks wont start pressuring your life total relevantly untill turn 3-4 at the earliest. Burn will have you dead by turn 3-4 fairly consistently.
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Going T3 gifts t4 fatty is as good as it sounds.
However, it doesn't happen all the time. Your fatties might not win you the game instantaneously in certain matchups as well.
I'm not sure whether I like the Gifts version more than the U/B/x vanilla build to be honest.
As for grixis- what does red offer that green doesn't? Abrupt Decay answers more things than Bolt.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Edit: Here's what I'm working on
Land (23)
1 Academy Ruins
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Darksteel Citadel
5 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
3 Watery Grave
Creature (5)
2 Spellskite
2 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
Artifact (14)
1 Batterskull
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Mox Opal
3 Talisman of Dominance
1 Trading Post
3 Vedalken Shackles
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Instant (8)
2 Mana Leak
1 Dismember
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Smother
2 Thirst for Knowledge
Sorcery (5)
1 Damnation
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Thoughtseize
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Damnation
2 Negate
3 Slaughter Games
MODERN: TezzeretAoB
TINY LEADERS: Varolz Infect
PAUPER: Midnight Presence
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Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
I play the UB version in legacy and love it. trying to port it into modern. I'm sure the deck needs a lily and damnation but this is my first draft. I feel it needs more artifacts too. would be nice to sneak in a galvanic or shrapnel blast in the list. but I'm open to all suggestions thanks.
GRIXIS TEZZERET
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x watery grave
1x Blood Crypt
2x Island
2x Swamp
4x darksteel citadel
1x academy ruins
4x Dimir Signet
1x Talisman if Dominance
3x Mox Opal
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Batterskull
1x Nihl Spellbomb
PLANESWALKERS
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
INSTANT/SORCERY
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lightning bolt
1x Terminate
1x Murderous Cut
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Magus of the moon
3x Etched Champion
ENCHANTMENTS
2x Blood Moon
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I'm about to post a list I've been hacking away at for the past two months or so. This list is built on a U/B Tezzeret Control shell, but underwent some significant changes on the way such that the deck looks much different now, and is arguably no longer a control deck. There are reasons I made these changes, and I'll get into those below, but to summarize the main two:
1./ U/B Tezz Control felt too slow sometimes. I wanted to give a faster clock and way to close out the game.
2./ The list I (and most on this forum, from what I can tell) built on was Shota Yasooka's 2014 Modern Pro Tour list, which did not have access to certain appealing cards that have since been released.
So with those two points made, let me get the list up, and then talk specifically about some of the card choices, and what has and has not performed well for me in testing.
Behold, THIRSTY LICHES!:
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Blinkmoth Nexus
2x Creeping Tar Pit
3x River of Tears
4x Darkslick Shores
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Sunken Ruins
1x Snow-covered Swamp
1x Snow-covered Island
Artifacts:
3x Darksteel Axe
4x Talisman of Dominance
2x Mox Opal
4x Ensoul Artifact
4x Phylactery Lich
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Disruption:
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Stubborn Denial
2x Smother
1x Doom Blade
1x Go for the Throat
2x Damnation
Refill:
3x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Duress
1x Consume the Meek
2x Negate
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull
3x Spellskite
2x Torpor Orb
Alright, so hopefully you don't have to look at the list for too long to figure out what's going on here. An army of indestructible 5/5 creatures has proven, time and again, to be something my opponents aren't prepared to kill. That said, here are some comments on specific card choices and things to watch out for:
Top 5 Cards to Avoid (this is game one, obviously people will have spiteful stuff post board):
1./ Path to Exile & Dismember - While most removal is dead against our threats, these are obviously live. The way to play around them is to use IoK to dig into their hand and clear the way, and then have Stubborn Denial around to protect your resolved threats. I'd also like to quickly add at this point that Stubborn Denial is perhaps both the most important card and the biggest revelation in the deck. Patrick Chapin's pro tour efforts might not have shown it, but Stubborn Denial was a hidden gem in his list, and it has consistently over-performed for me in this deck. Meeting the ferocious condition is very easy, since all of your non man-land threats meet the criteria, and even being able to just Force Spike people can be great, especially if used on turn one on the play to counter your opponent on the draw from hitting you with targeted discard.
2./ Liliana of the Veil - I haven't played against Lilly much with this deck yet, but she also can answer our big threats. Top ways to beat her are: make them discard her early, counter her before she comes down, Damnation a board with an indestructible threat on your side to swing through and clean up, or use your man lands to pressure her and potentially speed that effort up with Darksteel Axe. The Axe is mostly there as an Ensoul target, Tezz target, or to be a good Phylactery counter holder, but it is also relevant surprisingly often as a piece of equipment. Equipping the man lands is great, and sometimes your creatures need the extra 2 power to win a ground fight through a Wurmcoil Engine or something.
3./ Blood Moon - The worst. Not gonna lie, if they stick this, unless you're pretty far ahead on board, you're not likely to win. Our 6 mana rocks do give us some chance of not being locked out, but it's definitely uphill. The deck only plays two basics, and doesn't run any fetches. That decision is motivated by a desire to take less damage from our mana base, and since we don't take any and our threats are big and cheap, we actually have a really good shot at racing burn in game one. The two basics in the deck are actually a concession to how good Path is against us as a removal spell, and helps mitigate the downside.
4./ Cryptic Command - Because of the way the threats in the deck come together, Cryptic's bounce mode can often set up some gross 2 or 3 for 1 scenarios where they bounce whatever artifact you have Ensouled, or bounce whatever artifact is holding your Phylactery Counter. IoK also can't get it, but at least sees it coming. All I can offer here is that Stubborn Denial is amazing against this card, and you should hope to draw a copy before you get Cryptic'd. The one thing I'll say about Cryptic Command is that the times at which it tends to be cast are predictable, so even if you don't know they have it, if you think they do you can often set up situations where you can use Stubborn Denial's Force Spike mode to deal with it, since people seem to have no problem tapping out on turn 4 if they don't know about your denials yet.
5./ Ugin, the Spirit Dragon - So I never even thought about this card until I played against it, but Ugin is gross because while almost every other sweeper in the game is irrelevant against our indestructible legion, Ugin can easily eat all of your Ensouls, Liches, and Tezzerets. More frustratingly, though, you often can't take a line that plays around both Karn AND Ugin. Karn makes you want to play redundant threats in case he comes down to exile the first, and Ugin makes you want to sandbag threats because when he comes down he'll eat everything. Only your man-lands and Tezz'd threats are safe. Plan accordingly.
That's where the deck is now. Here are some changes I've currently got in mind for the main deck:
+2 Darksteel Relic / -2 Darksteel Axe
I was pretty averse to Relic when I was first researching the list because it seems extremely 'do nothing' without the synergizing components. At least Axe is relevant in cases where equipping it is good. However, the cards making me rethink my assessment are Mox Opal, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Stubborn Denial. By getting out a Relic on turn one, for free, instead of having to decide whether to play the Axe or cast/leave up disruption, I'm more likely to have hands that let me curve a turn one disruption spell into turn 2 Ensoul, swing. I also like this option because getting our indestructible targets onto zero on our curve instead of one makes Chalice of the Void more viable as a sideboard card, which is something I've been playing with the idea of for decks like Burn, Affinity, Storm, and Zoo.
It occurs to me that this also leads to the nut draw of: Darksteel Citadel, Mox Opal, Darksteel Relic, and Ensoul Artifact. This deck already has explosive draws, but by adding this I get the terrifying T1: "Citadel, Opal, Relic, Ensoul Relic, go."
Now imagine the remaining 3 cards in your hand are land, Stubborn Denial, Thirst for Knowledge. I don't see how that hand loses.
+4 Ghost Quarter, +1 or 2 Crucible of Worlds / -4 Blinkmoth Nexus, -1 or 2 Artifacts (not sure which)
Blinkmoth is great, sometimes it's my MVP. However, I really wish I had a good way to not get rolled over by Tron. If I were to make this change, I'd also totally shake up the mana base to enable myself to recur fetches for whatever value that entailed. I'd probably also find room for Vedalken Shackles somewhere at the same time, although I think that would lead down the road to a much different deck. I don't know, but it seems good. Maybe I can get away with using Fulminator Mage for those purposes instead?
-2 to 4 Inquisition of Kozilek / +2 to 4 Thoughtseize
The question is simple but I don't know the answer: in the current meta, is being able to hit Cryptic, Twin, Rhino, Become Immense, and Karn/Ugin (mostly) more important than not taking 2 (or more) damage against decks like Scapeshift, Burn, Zoo, Affinity, or other highly aggressive archetypes?
Bonus Round!
Find room for the singleton Rapid Hybridization in this deck, because it is both a sweet removal spell nobody expects, and you can also get awesome value on defense by targeting your own indestructible threats for 1 mana 3/3s at instant speed!
Anyhow, that's all I've got to say on the deck for the time being. I'd look forward to whatever input you folks have on cards I may not have considered or properly analyzed.
Cheers.
I am concerned about your artifact count: 13. This doesn't come close to justifying Mox Opal, nevermind 2 of them. And, it's overall too little to reliably run a Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas on the draw function by about 5 cards. Again, I get that you are doing a very, very focused attack deck theme, so digging isn't your thing. I guess you can kind of look at this deck as a version of artifact attack -- Affinity. Ultimately, the question to ask is, "is this a better deck than affinity?" I honestly don't know. Their primary trick is Cranial Plating and Arcbound Ravager for explosive attack potential, while you're going with a stout 5/5 attack. Your advantage is the sideboard and more adaptable suite of spells.
@Sasky: I love what you're working on! The Caleb deck's evolution is something I'm keenly interested in (reminds me of my Godzilla! mechanic), and it seems as though you've got some very sound insights. The idea of turn 3 explosion with a lot of redundancies seems airtight, but when you said that it may not be as good as the vanilla deck. My overall question, and this is something that Sled_Dog made mention of, "how hard is this deck to pilot?" Is it prohibitive? Do you know of some good websites that can serve as tutors or a roadmap of what kind of package to pull out when you Gifts Ungiven?
@Offtheropes:
- Total artifact count is 20 [High]. Land count is 20 [Low, but 4 Probes makes up for it]. Mana-rock count is 5 [High, given your curve]. Opal count is 3 [Very high].
- Despite your list being spell-heavy, you surprisingly play zero countermagic in the main.
- Etched champion has been tried out a couple of times, and has always been cut. Altough his protection feature's got a certain appeal, he's kind of slow of a clock. And don't forget that if his protection is on, he can't be targeted by Tezzeret.
- Full four Probes and 5 discard spells is a lot of info. Note: they aren't that great of a top-deck in the late-game. And make Snapcaster mage «meh» targets.
- Also, I *think* Blood moon makes Citadel retain the Artifact subtype, but lose Indestructibility. Just a tiny nonbo.
- No Spellskite?
Cards I suggest you consider: for a clock, Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Also, for a clock and disruption power: Vendilion Clique. Curving-out catch-all while tempo-positive: Mana leak. Setting-up and cantripping, instead of overloading on Probes: Serum Visions. Also a better topdeck. And if you play the high artifact-count game, some Galvanic blast could work.
@Soundreason:
Just some thinking out loud: I find your idea of including Darksteel relic interesting. While we're talking Trinkets and Eggs, have you considered Mishra's Bauble? Nihil Spellbomb also unconditionally cantrips for B. I could see you explore in that direction: cantrips allow you to cut back on the land count a bit, and them eggs could play the double-duty of [whatever their function] & having a built-in removal damping. Though this specific line somehow sounds very dynamic and fun, I'm not convinced that it can prove competitive, however.
If I was to give my best-est spike advice for your list, I'd also advise you to play sure-value cards and cards that have proven the best for aggression, in my experience. 2x Mana leak would deal with stuff you don't have a lot of interaction with and would make people try to play around. Then, 2x Vendillion Clique because it's disruption or card selection AND a beater ... Both, along Stubborn Denial and Thirst for Knowledge, will allow very strong instant-speed plays to back up your plan or to buy you time to get there. Some cheap Serum visions could also set you up nicely, topped-off with a couple of Tasigoyf, as one undercosted beater and source of card advantage. If you like tricks, Clique and Tasigur can sit in the SB, coming in for game 2 when they've sided all their useless removal out and brought the artifact destruction in.
It'll be hard to get enough island plays to fuel Shackles AND while getting BBB for the Lich in time.
EDIT: @Raystack is right. 13 is not enough!
Cheers guys, keep it up. This is all very exciting!
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
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Thanks for the feedback, Raystack. I've definitely thought about the things you brought up as concerns, so here's how I got to the current version of the list:
Artifact Count
Part of the issue here is tied to the linearity of the deck - because the archetype requires multiple two-card synergies to function, the deck has lots of 'mandatory' card slots (threats require artifacts to enable them and vice-versa), keeping room for utility cards low. However, some of those utility cards are also 'mandatory' in the sense that they are required in order to interact with what others are doing in the meta-game (spot removal, hand disruption, and counters). Incidentally, this also makes sideboarding very challenging, as you only have a few slots that can be adjusted for any given match up.
Because of how aggressively this list plays, I'd say 4 out of 5 times I play Tezz I'm using his -1 to make another 5/5 and keep the stream of threats flowing. Unlike the more controlling version of the deck where he is a good source of card advantage and can find specific pieces to lock or hate your opponent, in this deck Tezz is here as a resilient source of threats who happens to be able to dig in a pinch on an even board.
This list is in flux, and in the version of the main-deck immediately prior to this one had +2 Spellskite, -2 Damnation, with Damnation having been moved to the board. This helped with an artifact count of 15 (that is my target number for the deck, I think you can't go higher without sacrificing core elements), but ultimately I decided that Damnation was able to get me more value in the match ups I was expecting.
Also, the artifact count is more like 17 than 13. I know this is kind of cheating, but I count the Blinkmoths because there are times when I can activate them to make a Mox live, which is a little like filtering a mana. Not ideal, but it works.
However, you are right to note that it is sometimes difficult to meet the metalcraft requirement for Mox Opal, which leads you to consider the following when looking at a hand: if you kept a Mox Opal but can't find the third artifact to enable metalcraft, do you run Mox Opal onto the table? This might seem like giving away information, but it is free to get it on board now, and depending on the board state it could represent a 'hasty' 5/5 threat on any subsequent turn off of an Ensoul or Tezzeret either in hand or off the top of the deck. Seeing the in hand situations are easy, but it's important to play to the top-deck, too.
Why not Affinity?
A few reasons. The main thing here is just that Affinity isn't my play style because it doesn't involve enough active disruption and interaction. Affinity doesn't interact so much as go wide and race. This deck is built more to go deep and interact, if that makes sense.
I also think this deck offers unique angles of attack that trump what Affinity can do, including being able to play a sweeper onto your own creature filled board and then attack anyway.
Finally, playing this version of an aggressive artifact deck strands many more 'dead' cards with your opponents than playing Affinity would. Their Bolts and Electrolyzes can't remove your threats (unless you're sloppy with man-land activations). Any of their 'destroy' effects are dead, and many of their stronger sideboard cards for the matchup (Ancient Grudge, Shatter Storm, Creeping Corrosion, Stony Silence, Pyroclasm, Drown in Sorrow, Night of Souls' Betrayal, Curse of Death's Hold, etc.) are all less good and/or dead in the match up.
By the way, since you took time to reply, any specific thoughts on IoK vs. Thoughtseize? Right now that's the main thing I'm going over in my mind as for which I'd rather be using game 1, or if I should run a split.
Edit: Didn't see Radouf's reply until after I'd written my first response -
I thought about Mana Leak a little bit, and I think I've found myself being more tempted by its little brother, Spell Pierce. There isn't really any single creature I can think of that I'm afraid of if it resolves, so being able to have a more mana efficient soft counter means it can allow me to keep protection available and curve into a threat a turn earlier than Leak would. I'm thinking about some number of Spell Pierce in the board, and have also considered Dispel for similar reasons. Perhaps a 1 and 1 split in the board would be good. I also like how efficient Spell Snare is, but I'm not sure there are enough 2 mana cards I actually care about. I tend to be more worried about 1, 3, and 4.
Vendilion Clique is a card I had thought about in very early list versions, but haven't thought much about since. I'm pretty sure I could find room for one or two in the sideboard, since that part is far from nailed down now anyway. I think it would be especially good against opposing Blood Moon decks, and probably also helps with Tron.
Serum Visions I did think about this, but I keep coming back to needing my cards to do something themselves, as opposed to finding me cards that do something. Thirst for Knowledge meets this requirement because it is a source of real card advantage, not just selection. That said, in some ways this deck is a combo deck, so having the ability to dig is somewhat appealing, I just don't think the benefits outweigh the risks of cutting the cards in the slots it would need to occupy.
You're right that Shackles and Lich don't play nicely together, which is why I think a rebuild would be in order if I tried to go that route. More fetchlands, shocklands, still Urborgs... I just don't think it can do what this deck does anymore at that point.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang out of the SB sounds pretty appealing, actually. I like the argument that he's good once they board out their dead removal, although I do think that by virtue of his 5 toughness he still already didn't die to a lot of those cards anyway. Still, having an additional source of cards if a game goes long could be beneficial.
If I try to up my artifact count, I think I start by cutting a land back down to 22 and finding a cheap bauble or one mana artifact to fill the slot, like another Darksteel Relic.
Beyond the obvious advantage of conserving life, what do you specifically fear for cards that exceed 3 mana? You get your liliana and path to exile with IoK. Lately, I've been running hard on Inquisition of Kozilek over thoughtseize. A 10% loss of life with a Seize is nothing to sneeze at. I'd prob do 3/1. But, it's a coinflip.
Step one:
- Run at least 3 Torpor Orb so you can have 1 out by turn 2 or 3.
Step 2:
- Drop Eater of Days or Hunted Horror, ignoring their draw back conditions due to orb.
step 3:
- Smash face
@Soundreason, cool deck I Love all the interactions. Which led me to thinking about this left field idea. I would probably just run a full playset of Torpor Orb for it.
Game plan would consist of early turns getting the orb in to play and dropping big threats for cheap without the drawbacks, then while your opponent is exhausting his answers on the big stuff, follow in with Tezzeret and begin turning those Torpor Orb in to 5/5 beaters for the second wave. Orbs are doing double duty, tezzeret is protected behind his jank army. If it's worth pursuing I'll come up with a possible list
Also:
There's Leveler, but it has no battle tricks like trample/flying
I believe there's a deck built around that called "Torpor Beef" somewhere on this forum in deck creation. However, I don't think it runs Eater of Days which as an artifact is better here. I just wish Orb had any power against the aggro decks in the format. I think it would be hilarious to take a build with Orb and Eater of Days to an FNM though, you're guaranteed to get some funny wins and some frustrated opponents.
BWGJunkBWG
BRGJundBRG
B1Eldrazi ShopsB1
UAzami, Lady of ScrollsU
BGMeren of Clan Nel TothBG
BUWJenara, Asura of WarBUW
GURAnimar, Soul of ElementsGUR
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins