Here is the relevant info on the undying in the CR
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other statebased
actions were performed, that permanent’s last known information is derived from the game
state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
Example: You control Young Wolf, a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter
on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are
performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After statebased
actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard. When it was last on the
battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.
I would have to agree with the Dungrove. The list I'm taking to a small tournament a few days from now has 2 Dungrove, and no baloths. Dungrove starts out less impressive, as he is just a 3/3 or a 4/4 when cast, but in the mid game he is almost always larger than baloth + cannot be hit with targetted removal. How many Dungroves do you have in the main?
And with Groundbreaker ? I get Baloth vs Dungrove, but breaker might be a quicker clock? Is it worth it to split the two, or does the amount of copies per list depend of the amount of aspect of hydra in your deck?
Groundbreaker is pretty nice for instant big damage output but it can be a waste of 3 mana for something that can stay and not have to worry about losing the 6/1 beater at the end of turn. I will always run Leatherback Baloth over Groundbreaker any day.
I was running 4x Leatherback Baloth, but I had several games where I needed same-turn damage to finish out the game. My deck now has 2x Leatherback Baloth and 3x Boggart Ram-Gang. Both are more versatile than Groundbreaker, which is about as one-dimensional as you can get. Plus, Aspect of Hydra is still a key card in my deck and Groundbreaker doesn't stick around to help build up devotion.
I was running 4x Leatherback Baloth, but I had several games where I needed same-turn damage to finish out the game. My deck now has 2x Leatherback Baloth and 3x Boggart Ram-Gang. Both are more versatile than Groundbreaker, which is about as one-dimensional as you can get. Plus, Aspect of Hydra is still a key card in my deck and Groundbreaker doesn't stick around to help build up devotion.
I really like Boggart Ram-Gang that is a really spicy brew with Stompy I must admit.
I would have to agree with the Dungrove. The list I'm taking to a small tournament a few days from now has 2 Dungrove, and no baloths. Dungrove starts out less impressive, as he is just a 3/3 or a 4/4 when cast, but in the mid game he is almost always larger than baloth + cannot be hit with targetted removal. How many Dungroves do you have in the main?
I run 3 Dungroves in the main because my meta is full of grixis and jund. Jund has a slightly easier time dealing with Dungrove, but the card will eat grixis alive in multiples. I'd love to go up to 4 main but my deck is all 1-2 drops and exploits Greenbelt Rampager triggers.
And with Groundbreaker ? I get Baloth vs Dungrove, but breaker might be a quicker clock? Is it worth it to split the two, or does the amount of copies per list depend of the amount of aspect of hydra in your deck?
I've tried Groundbreaker before and didn't like it as much versus Boggart Ram-Gang because the Gang stuck around and Groundbreaker forces removal most of the time. Groundbreaker is a real beating though and I don't see anything wrong with running a few. I believe using either Boggart Ram-Gang + Aspect of Hydra or Groundbreaker + Blossoming Defense could be equally viable. Aspect is amazing, but I am running a more hexproof-centered package in 3 Dungrove Elder and 3 Blossoming Defense with 2 Aspects that I seem to keep siding out in games 2 & 3.
Another thought, with Narnam Renegade in the deck there is more of an excuse to run a few fetches. My old build had 4 fetches, 2 Copperline Gorge and 1 Stomping Ground main with 3 Blood Moon and 3 Ancient Grudge in the board. The build just stole games when I should have lost and the Ram-Gang still allowed me to use non-forests while under a moon. The land drops I could make maindeck even functionally ignored there was red in the deck on game 1.
I would have to agree with the Dungrove. The list I'm taking to a small tournament a few days from now has 2 Dungrove, and no baloths. Dungrove starts out less impressive, as he is just a 3/3 or a 4/4 when cast, but in the mid game he is almost always larger than baloth + cannot be hit with targetted removal. How many Dungroves do you have in the main?
I run 3 Dungroves in the main because my meta is full of grixis and jund. Jund has a slightly easier time dealing with Dungrove, but the card will eat grixis alive in multiples. I'd love to go up to 4 main but my deck is all 1-2 drops and exploits Greenbelt Rampager triggers.
That's just the right balance in my opinion. Having plenty of 1-2 drops, then Dungroves as the large beaters. In my meta it's the annoying Eldrazi Displacers of Eldrazi and Taxes, as well as the Echoing Truth from Merfolk that made me switch from baloth to the elder. Once Dungrove gets into play, they almost have no way to get rid of it except by creature combat. I cast Dungrove right away when against Eldrazi and Taxes, because the BW versions of that deck has thoughtseize that can take the elder.
Both are good cards. Unfortunately, we would probably have to change a lot in our deck to make these new cards work. Giving three -1/-1 on most of our creatures is death for that creature. Also casting these as a 0/1 and a 1/1 respectively, then hope that they grow is not a good plan for Stompy..
Do you think the same rules apply with the new Crocodile?
Crocodile of the Crossing
3G
Creature - Crocodile
Haste
5/4
When Crocodile of the Crossing enters the battlefield, put a -1/-1 counter on target creature you control.
The haste looks awesome to me. Synergizes better than the -3/-3 guys, can pretty easily get out of Bolt range. The 4CMC isn't spectacular, but I could see 2 copies of this performing nicely. Thoughts?
It just seems like a worse version of Surrak, the Hunt Caller, and that doesn't see play. I guess it works better than Surrak when paired with undying, but Geist is the only one that is regularly used.
There was some discussion about the croc on the last page, at post #5375.
Recently I was looking at some video from Lantern (the guy that supports Zoo on this forums and on youtube) about why Zoo is bad and what does it need to be good. And a lot of the things said there made incredible sense for this deck too, in my opinion.
I believe that going through a similar approach would not just help us solve problems that present when the meta shifts, but also quickly recognize when something new is spoiled if it is what we are waiting for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghPRZ1FT_FM
Cycling means that we can feel comfortable that this will never be a dead draw, and can side it in more comfortably against decks that run just a few artifacts rather than being built around them.
Cons:
Doesn't hit enchantments, there aren't too many relevant enchantments in the modern meta but there are a few. Namely in Ad Nauseam and Titan Shift.
Destroy vs. Tuck effect means that Wurmcoil Engine gets its death trigger, and Tron is already a terrible matchup.
Cycling means that we can feel comfortable that this will never be a dead draw, and can side it in more comfortably against decks that run just a few artifacts rather than being built around them.
What decks are those and do you lose to them? I can't think of any.
The artifacts I lose to are all in very artifact-heavy decks. Decks like Lantern Control and Tron.
Took my green black stompy. Did my best, but sorry I was only able to get 1-2. Have learned a lot of things from the experience. My deck has plenty of black spells, but it still employs the gang of Stompy creatures as well as a full set of rancor. Played against three decks in Sunday night magic. Dryad Millitant, Avatar of the Resolute, Narnam Renegade, Hissing Quagmire, scavenging Ooze, Dungrove Elder, and Abrupt Decay are amazing.
These are all from memory.
vs. Grixis Death Shadow control 1-2 lose
Game 1: an early revolted Narnam, followed by a Dryad put a lot of pressure on him. Dryad prevented his Tasigur from gaining any card advantage because the cards put in his grave are automatically exiled. He surgical extraction my bloodstained mire, only to realize that there's only one mire in the deck. Next, he surgical extraction Narnam. In return, I Abrupt Decay 2 Death Shadow. In the end he has an Angler and a Tasigur facing my board of 5 large green creatures. He concedes to lethal damage.
Game 2: it follows the same pattern as game 1. I was on my way to victory but this time got blown out by a Drown in Sorrow, killing 4 creatures including Dryad. Without Dryad, his Tasigur went nuts and gave him too much card advantage for me to overcome.
Game 3: was super grindy. My own Tasigur showed up, equipped him with a Basilisk Collar and attacked for 4, and gaining 4. However my Tasigur was killed soon. And I was without a Dryad for many turns, allowing him to gain the upper hand again with his Tasigurs - he has a playset. I played on, killing 3 tasigur with Maelstrom Pulse, Hissing Quagmire, Narnam Renegade, but was not able to draw a creature in time to save my life from the last Tasigur. Looked on top of my deck after the game, and Dungrove Elder was there.. if only I had one more turn.
vs. GUR Tempo it has Tarmogoyf, Hooting Mandrills and plenty of counter spells. 2-1 Win
Game 1: Stompy does it's thing. Narnam Renegade, Dryad, and Avatar backed up by 2 Inquisition of Kozilek for his counterspells are all too much for him. Dryad slows down his delving with Hooting Mandrills. I killed Tarmo with something, killed his mandrills with Hissing Quagmire, and Avatar goes in for the win.
Game 2: I was blown out by his sideboard Sword of Feast and Famine.
Game 3: was super grindy. I put early pressure again backed up with discard. Really loving Dryad Millitant. For some reason, maybe due to the heat of the room or the pressure, he blocks a 2/3 renegade with a 4/5 tarmo, killing both creatures. Basilisk collar and rancor team up well. The grind continued, decayed his sword, and finally it's his 5/6 tarmogoyf and a mandrills dancing with my 8/8 Dungrove Elder, 7/7 Scavenging Ooze, and 3/2 Dryad.. the dryad got +1/+1 from Oran Rief. Ooze ate both graveyards until only thing remains are lands, with his tarmo a 1/2. He still stubbornly kept blocking, but conceded after being going down to 1 life against my board of giant green monsters. Told me that elder gave him a rough time.
vs RB Homebrew Vampires??? 0-2 Lose
Game 1: my creaures are winning but then he casts Vampire Nocturnus and killed me in 2 turns
Game 2: dismembered nocturnus and eat a bloodghast with scavenging ooze. However more Nocturnus showed up, Kolaghans Command on my basilisk collar, and Stromkirk Noble whose first strike gave his vampires too much advantage. I will be better prepared for this weird deck next time we meet.
________________________________________
Cards that performed well:
Dryad Millitant - on my delve meta, this girl is priceless. Would always play 4.
Avatar of the Resolute - a reliable beater
Hissing Quagmire - I have new respect for this land. It seems slow, but the deathtouch makes large creatures afraid to block it.
Narnam Renegade - a solid 2/3 beater on turn 1, and even as a 1/2 he scares tasigurs and tarmogoyfs with his prickly stick!
Abrupt Decay - takes out pesky artifacts. Can't be countered made fighting the GUR tempo a lot easier.
__________________________________
Card that will be taken out:
Contagion Clasp - with no infect or elves in sight, this little artifact is too underpowered for my meta of giant creatures
Oran-Rief, the vastwood - it mana screwed me against against Death Shadow, but helped me get the upper hand against the GUR tempo deck... I'm debating replacing it with a another quagmire.
___________________________________________
My list. Nissa Vital Force is not supposed to be there, only used today because the card that was suppossed to be in her spot is still in the mail.
Both are good cards. Unfortunately, we would probably have to change a lot in our deck to make these new cards work. Giving three -1/-1 on most of our creatures is death for that creature. Also casting these as a 0/1 and a 1/1 respectively, then hope that they grow is not a good plan for Stompy..
Do you think the same rules apply with the new Crocodile?
Crocodile of the Crossing
3G
Creature - Crocodile
Haste
5/4
When Crocodile of the Crossing enters the battlefield, put a -1/-1 counter on target creature you control.
The haste looks awesome to me. Synergizes better than the -3/-3 guys, can pretty easily get out of Bolt range. The 4CMC isn't spectacular, but I could see 2 copies of this performing nicely. Thoughts?
Deck space for creatures is rather tight. Competes with powerful 4 drops like Thrun which many people don't even play in the main. 4 mana is hard for some versions of this deck. However, the haste seems to give it a bit of appeal. I would suggest just test it as a singleton in your deck. See if it fits your playstyle, and to know if it be reliably cast by the manabase.
That looks like a very bad list. You cut too many creatures so you aren't even the aggro deck anymore and then you have random control pieces but you aren't the control or midrange deck in the match up. You basically don't do anything well. You cut creatures for equipment and bad removal but since you play the weaker creatures, Basilisk Collar does even less than it should. Rancor is worse here. I could go on and on about how much I disagree with this list. It's just bad deck building. I wouldn't play Oran Rief when I'm playing 26+ creatures again your creature count makes it even worse. Just ahhh.... Pretty disappointed.
Anyone who wants to abuse the -1/-1 counters new creatures would need to run Melira, because that's how you get 4/4 and 3/4 for basically 2 mana.
but Melira doesnt gel with the rest of the deck, meaning you become another deck entirely. Hinging on group synergy over individual "over curve" performance means you need things like collected company and chord of calling. Basically, its going to be another deck altogether.
Private Mod Note
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704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other statebased
actions were performed, that permanent’s last known information is derived from the game
state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
Example: You control Young Wolf, a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter
on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are
performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After statebased
actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard. When it was last on the
battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.
I would have to agree with the Dungrove. The list I'm taking to a small tournament a few days from now has 2 Dungrove, and no baloths. Dungrove starts out less impressive, as he is just a 3/3 or a 4/4 when cast, but in the mid game he is almost always larger than baloth + cannot be hit with targetted removal. How many Dungroves do you have in the main?
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And with Groundbreaker ? I get Baloth vs Dungrove, but breaker might be a quicker clock? Is it worth it to split the two, or does the amount of copies per list depend of the amount of aspect of hydra in your deck?
Groundbreaker is pretty nice for instant big damage output but it can be a waste of 3 mana for something that can stay and not have to worry about losing the 6/1 beater at the end of turn. I will always run Leatherback Baloth over Groundbreaker any day.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
I really like Boggart Ram-Gang that is a really spicy brew with Stompy I must admit.
I run 3 Dungroves in the main because my meta is full of grixis and jund. Jund has a slightly easier time dealing with Dungrove, but the card will eat grixis alive in multiples. I'd love to go up to 4 main but my deck is all 1-2 drops and exploits Greenbelt Rampager triggers.
I've tried Groundbreaker before and didn't like it as much versus Boggart Ram-Gang because the Gang stuck around and Groundbreaker forces removal most of the time. Groundbreaker is a real beating though and I don't see anything wrong with running a few. I believe using either Boggart Ram-Gang + Aspect of Hydra or Groundbreaker + Blossoming Defense could be equally viable. Aspect is amazing, but I am running a more hexproof-centered package in 3 Dungrove Elder and 3 Blossoming Defense with 2 Aspects that I seem to keep siding out in games 2 & 3.
Another thought, with Narnam Renegade in the deck there is more of an excuse to run a few fetches. My old build had 4 fetches, 2 Copperline Gorge and 1 Stomping Ground main with 3 Blood Moon and 3 Ancient Grudge in the board. The build just stole games when I should have lost and the Ram-Gang still allowed me to use non-forests while under a moon. The land drops I could make maindeck even functionally ignored there was red in the deck on game 1.
That's just the right balance in my opinion. Having plenty of 1-2 drops, then Dungroves as the large beaters. In my meta it's the annoying Eldrazi Displacers of Eldrazi and Taxes, as well as the Echoing Truth from Merfolk that made me switch from baloth to the elder. Once Dungrove gets into play, they almost have no way to get rid of it except by creature combat. I cast Dungrove right away when against Eldrazi and Taxes, because the BW versions of that deck has thoughtseize that can take the elder.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Do you think the same rules apply with the new Crocodile?
Crocodile of the Crossing
3G
Creature - Crocodile
Haste
5/4
When Crocodile of the Crossing enters the battlefield, put a -1/-1 counter on target creature you control.
The haste looks awesome to me. Synergizes better than the -3/-3 guys, can pretty easily get out of Bolt range. The 4CMC isn't spectacular, but I could see 2 copies of this performing nicely. Thoughts?
There was some discussion about the croc on the last page, at post #5375.
I believe that going through a similar approach would not just help us solve problems that present when the meta shifts, but also quickly recognize when something new is spoiled if it is what we are waiting for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghPRZ1FT_FM
At the moment I run Deglamer in my board but am thinking about replacing it.
Pros:
Cycling means that we can feel comfortable that this will never be a dead draw, and can side it in more comfortably against decks that run just a few artifacts rather than being built around them.
Cons:
Doesn't hit enchantments, there aren't too many relevant enchantments in the modern meta but there are a few. Namely in Ad Nauseam and Titan Shift.
Destroy vs. Tuck effect means that Wurmcoil Engine gets its death trigger, and Tron is already a terrible matchup.
What decks are those and do you lose to them? I can't think of any.
The artifacts I lose to are all in very artifact-heavy decks. Decks like Lantern Control and Tron.
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
Took my green black stompy. Did my best, but sorry I was only able to get 1-2. Have learned a lot of things from the experience. My deck has plenty of black spells, but it still employs the gang of Stompy creatures as well as a full set of rancor. Played against three decks in Sunday night magic. Dryad Millitant, Avatar of the Resolute, Narnam Renegade, Hissing Quagmire, scavenging Ooze, Dungrove Elder, and Abrupt Decay are amazing.
These are all from memory.
vs. Grixis Death Shadow control 1-2 lose
Game 1: an early revolted Narnam, followed by a Dryad put a lot of pressure on him. Dryad prevented his Tasigur from gaining any card advantage because the cards put in his grave are automatically exiled. He surgical extraction my bloodstained mire, only to realize that there's only one mire in the deck. Next, he surgical extraction Narnam. In return, I Abrupt Decay 2 Death Shadow. In the end he has an Angler and a Tasigur facing my board of 5 large green creatures. He concedes to lethal damage.
Game 2: it follows the same pattern as game 1. I was on my way to victory but this time got blown out by a Drown in Sorrow, killing 4 creatures including Dryad. Without Dryad, his Tasigur went nuts and gave him too much card advantage for me to overcome.
Game 3: was super grindy. My own Tasigur showed up, equipped him with a Basilisk Collar and attacked for 4, and gaining 4. However my Tasigur was killed soon. And I was without a Dryad for many turns, allowing him to gain the upper hand again with his Tasigurs - he has a playset. I played on, killing 3 tasigur with Maelstrom Pulse, Hissing Quagmire, Narnam Renegade, but was not able to draw a creature in time to save my life from the last Tasigur. Looked on top of my deck after the game, and Dungrove Elder was there.. if only I had one more turn.
vs. GUR Tempo it has Tarmogoyf, Hooting Mandrills and plenty of counter spells. 2-1 Win
Game 1: Stompy does it's thing. Narnam Renegade, Dryad, and Avatar backed up by 2 Inquisition of Kozilek for his counterspells are all too much for him. Dryad slows down his delving with Hooting Mandrills. I killed Tarmo with something, killed his mandrills with Hissing Quagmire, and Avatar goes in for the win.
Game 2: I was blown out by his sideboard Sword of Feast and Famine.
Game 3: was super grindy. I put early pressure again backed up with discard. Really loving Dryad Millitant. For some reason, maybe due to the heat of the room or the pressure, he blocks a 2/3 renegade with a 4/5 tarmo, killing both creatures. Basilisk collar and rancor team up well. The grind continued, decayed his sword, and finally it's his 5/6 tarmogoyf and a mandrills dancing with my 8/8 Dungrove Elder, 7/7 Scavenging Ooze, and 3/2 Dryad.. the dryad got +1/+1 from Oran Rief. Ooze ate both graveyards until only thing remains are lands, with his tarmo a 1/2. He still stubbornly kept blocking, but conceded after being going down to 1 life against my board of giant green monsters. Told me that elder gave him a rough time.
vs RB Homebrew Vampires??? 0-2 Lose
Game 1: my creaures are winning but then he casts Vampire Nocturnus and killed me in 2 turns
Game 2: dismembered nocturnus and eat a bloodghast with scavenging ooze. However more Nocturnus showed up, Kolaghans Command on my basilisk collar, and Stromkirk Noble whose first strike gave his vampires too much advantage. I will be better prepared for this weird deck next time we meet.
________________________________________
Cards that performed well:
Dryad Millitant - on my delve meta, this girl is priceless. Would always play 4.
Avatar of the Resolute - a reliable beater
Hissing Quagmire - I have new respect for this land. It seems slow, but the deathtouch makes large creatures afraid to block it.
Narnam Renegade - a solid 2/3 beater on turn 1, and even as a 1/2 he scares tasigurs and tarmogoyfs with his prickly stick!
Abrupt Decay - takes out pesky artifacts. Can't be countered made fighting the GUR tempo a lot easier.
__________________________________
Card that will be taken out:
Contagion Clasp - with no infect or elves in sight, this little artifact is too underpowered for my meta of giant creatures
Oran-Rief, the vastwood - it mana screwed me against against Death Shadow, but helped me get the upper hand against the GUR tempo deck... I'm debating replacing it with a another quagmire.
___________________________________________
My list. Nissa Vital Force is not supposed to be there, only used today because the card that was suppossed to be in her spot is still in the mail.
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Dryad Millitant
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dungrove Elder
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Rancor
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Basilisk Collar
1 Contagion Clasp
1 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
1 Nissa, Vital Force
22 Lands
8 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Hissing Quagmire
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
4 Duress
1 Deglamer
1 Unravel the Aether
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Putrefy
1 Golgari Charm
1 Spellskite
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
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Deck space for creatures is rather tight. Competes with powerful 4 drops like Thrun which many people don't even play in the main. 4 mana is hard for some versions of this deck. However, the haste seems to give it a bit of appeal. I would suggest just test it as a singleton in your deck. See if it fits your playstyle, and to know if it be reliably cast by the manabase.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
but Melira doesnt gel with the rest of the deck, meaning you become another deck entirely. Hinging on group synergy over individual "over curve" performance means you need things like collected company and chord of calling. Basically, its going to be another deck altogether.
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