Oh, I almost forgot that one Love that Assemble... still got a foil lying about, used it in my old prison-list.
In that list I also played a single Form of the Dragon as an extra wincon. It's actually pretty good, especially together with Leyline of Sanctity and Phyrexian Unlife in maindeck. Fun times
Is Goblin Dark-dwellers still in the running now that we lost the boom//bust synergy with the rules change? (cmc is now 8, not 2/6)
Also wouldnt something like Assemble the LegionLuminarch Ascension or even Sigil of the empty throne be more reliable than approach of the second sun as win-cons? they dont read "win the game," but assemble actually wins faster, and provides some advantage in the meantime
Do we have any consistent wincons in a RW Planeswalkerlist with maindeck Bridge? I mean, even if we play Nahiri, we can't really go combat with Emrakul or Gideon :/
Yeah, I've started using Runed Halo as it can also protect me from hard-to-handle creatures, as I'm only playing Anger as my only removal, and stopping other creatures (such as Goyfs) with Magus
Actually, I haven't been damaged that much by turn 1 discard on the draw. Maybe I just have a good matchup against Jund/Death's Shadow or I'm just lucky, but they rarely win against this kind of deck...
You can 100% run Nahiri and Bridge at the same time, as long as you support it with your deck. In my list I frequently board in bridge and keep my Nahiri. At her worst with bridge out she's artifact, creature, and enchant removal and card advantage and tanks your opponents attacks if they manage to swing through bridge somehow. At her best she's all of the above and then you draw into an Oblivion Ring and use it to get rid of bridge and then swing in with emrakul.
Don't forget you can target your own bridge with O ring
On the leylines debate, I firmly believe the most competitive version of this deck is the PW heavy version (its certainly put up the best results), and in that version 2 leyline MB and 1-2 SB should be mandatory.
As for sup field, I personally don't run it because I run 10 pws in my list, 4x Nahiri 3x Chandra 3x new gideon, but if I didn't you'd better believe it would be a 4 of MB
Chandra and Nahiri really are the best/most versatile cards we play. Both provide excellent card advantage, both provide a must answer clock, and both provide removal. One hidden benefit that never gets talked about is that each also gives a sort of "virtual life gain". Sure, your life total never changes, but when your opponent swings at Nahiri with a 5/6 goyf she just essentially also gained you 5 life. Mix that concept with the fact that gone unanswered she wins the game in 3 turns and I just cannot think of an argument strong enough to suggest ditching the PW route.
Is Goblin Dark-dwellers still in the running now that we lost the boom//bust synergy with the rules change? (cmc is now 8, not 2/6)
Also wouldnt something like Assemble the LegionLuminarch Ascension or even Sigil of the empty throne be more reliable than approach of the second sun as win-cons? they dont read "win the game," but assemble actually wins faster, and provides some advantage in the meantime
With the split card nerf, I don't think landkill will be anywhere near as good as it once was.. Sad day indeed.
Assemble the Legion is the usual go to for a wincon in Bridge lists since 1/1 tokens easily attack under the bridge. I agree that AtL > Approach of the Second Sun in most cases, but then what if against any deck running counterspells? Just something to consider..
I concur about Nahiri. There is nothing else. As long as Emrakul is around, you would need an insta-win card just to compete with him.
There is a heated discussion starting up about the new red hate-bear that I just mentioned. On one hand you've got people who think he's the red 2-drop that finally completes the cycle (Bob, Stoneforge, Goyf, Snapcaster) but on the other hand you've got people comparing him to Tunnel Ignus.
The best researched argument comes from Lantern who counted cards and estimated that the ability hits in excess of 25% of the commonly played cards in Modern, and particularly hoses decks like Affinity.
I personally think it's being oversold a bit. The other four either provide direct card advantage or are Tarmagoyf. This one only has the potential to add a bit of extra damage. That's powerful but I don't think it's a color defining staple. I think it could potentially help anchor a RW death and taxes sort of build, but that's not a certainty.
The red dude is pretty much the same thing as Suppression Field... except he does damage and lets stuff resolve instead of just stopping it.
I'd say he's good board-material for burn, but not much more than that. He's also pretty good against planeswalker-decks.
I think he's pretty bad unless youre being agressive. If your plan is to chill behind an ensnaring bridge for 6 turns, getting in for 2 incidental damage here and there doesnt do anything, because he only stops activations if the opponent is at effectively 2 life. He's more like Eidolon of the Great Revel
I wonder if the fact that it dodges abrupt decay might be enough to make it worth spending extra mana.
Also - Sweltering Suns has tested better than I at first thought it would. It's a 3 damage pyroclasm for 1RR that you can cycle for 3. I've never liked how sweepers always feel like you've got either too few or too many of them. This one new card made a sweep-heavy deck feel significantly smoother to play.
On the other hand I haven't yet had a moment where Gideon felt like a powerhouse. He never felt like a wasted card at least, but I don't think I've figured out the right plays yet.
So; small sample sizes here, but what I'm finding with new Gideon:
- Powerhouse on curve.
- Not very good if you're on your back foot; he doesnt do much to stabilize the game unless your opponent is focused on going tall.
He tested surprisingly well in a bridge build, though. Because what you lose the ability to swing with his 4/4 mode, you make it very, very hard for your opponent to deal with the bridge and the emblem; between fogging any creatures that might be able to go under the bridge and forcing them to answer both him and the bridge before combat damage is relevant is a big swing.
Yes, can't beat can.
Also note, that it says our next endstep. So if we have Nahiri on 8 and opponent on <= 15 we can protect her by ending opponents turn and Emrakul and win before we lose the game on endstep.
I'm not a rule guru, but I think it's even possible to chain them as we skip the endstep. So with a Nahiri in play we could chain 2 Glorious End and then ult her.
So we just got a 3 mana Summary Dismissal (if we have the Gideon emblem and a Gideon). We're closing in on tier 1 I think.
Seems pretty sweet, but what do we cut for it? I was already struggling to make room for 2-3 gideons by skimming a single o-ring and 2 lightning helix since they are much less relevant in the current meta.
That's 30 slots. I usually prefer a lowish land count since SSG can usually get me to my top-end if I don't draw into lands (currently running 22) so that leaves 8 slots open. What do we want in those 8 slots? Competition is pretty high, right now the best cards to fill those spaces are:
Blessed Alliance - A beating vs most decks these days, gets around Hexproof, useless if they have 2 or more creatures they are swinging with and you really need to remove one. Lightning Helix - Great vs Burn and Affinity and Infect, but not that relevant vs everything else. Seems like it's time to put it in the SB since we already have 8+ mainboard cards that are great vs those decks (Moon, Anger, Wrath, Chalice) Stasis Snare More narrow than O-ring but instant speed, seems usable vs combo decks like grishoalbanned or abzan coco. Glorious End Seems really interesting but only usable in 4 situations: 1) gideon is out with an emblem and isn't in danger of being removed at instant speed before our next end step. 2) We have multiple Glorious Ends in hand and can chain them. 3) Nahiri or Chandra are going to ult and win the game next turn before our end step. 4) We're going to die this turn/next turn anyway, and want to see if we can draw an answer/game winner before losing to the end step trigger. Gideon Jura Another card that was/is useful vs decks that "go wide" but not great vs Deaths Shadow and 6/7 goyfs. I'd rather not pay 5 mana for a fog, which is what he ends up being more often than not vs most decks in the meta these days by the time we can cast him. Elspeth, Sun's Champion She's a great PW and provides several bodies to block/attack with, but her casting cost means that she's not coming in until late game which is sometimes not a problem and sometimes super bad. Leyline of Sanctity This card is more and more relevant these days. It seems that by far the most common turn 1 play nowadays is Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek and this handles both. It stops burn in it's tracks and severely hampers DSJ. The biggest plus is that it makes our PW's unboltable and seems like it gets more powerful now that we're playing 10-12 Planeswalkers Chandra, Torch of Defiance I'm on a 3-of for her because i don't want to overcrowd the 4-drop slot but she's powerful enough to warrant 4 slots if there isn't something better. Ajani Vengeant Ajani was only ever a 1 or 2 of at the most, and now that we have Gideon with his strictly better moveset minus the game-winning ultimate, I don't think he's worth the inclusion. Ensnaring Bridge Less useful in the Nahiri version but still usable, relevant vs a large percentage of the meta but blanks 2 of our wincons (Gideon and Nahiri) Runed Halo Fairly powerful in today's meta, you can name Death's Shadow, Goyf, Tasigur, Delver, Valakut, etc. Doesn't help vs token strategies / decks that go wide. Oblivion Ring Broad-answer at sorcery speed, already run in the deck but you can always run more. I think its a bit slow/clunky to run 4. Stony Silence / Harsh Mentor : too narrow for MB but great for SB Rest In Peace slightly broader than SS/HM but at the same time means that if you draw emrakul you can't pitch it with nahiri. Probably not worth the slot MB. Brimaz, King of Oreskos / Goblin Rabblemaster Both are solid self-contained armies that provide a fast clock if unanswered, but neither outclass Gideon of the Trials at the same CMC
I didn't include landkill cards/suppression field because those don't really fit the PW version's strategy and generally seem significantly worse with the split card rule change (well landkill does anyway). I certainly don't want to tell people how to play the game, but if you want to play a landkill deck it seems to me the best one these days is RG Ponza.
Seems pretty sweet, but what do we cut for it? I was already struggling to make room for 2-3 gideons by skimming a single o-ring and 2 lightning helix since they are much less relevant in the current meta.
Perhaps it's not a main deck card or just a singelton to keep our opponents on their toes. Like some blue decks play a single Mana Leak. I think it's definetly a sideboard option against Scapeshift (don't counter Scapeshift but the triggers after they sacced the lands, so they can't go off again), Ad Nauseum, Tooth& Nail as well as Through the Breach (which are both very bad matchups for us), other Nahiri decks that want to cheat out Emrakul, Cheerios and Storm.
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In that list I also played a single Form of the Dragon as an extra wincon. It's actually pretty good, especially together with Leyline of Sanctity and Phyrexian Unlife in maindeck. Fun times
Also wouldnt something like Assemble the Legion Luminarch Ascension or even Sigil of the empty throne be more reliable than approach of the second sun as win-cons? they dont read "win the game," but assemble actually wins faster, and provides some advantage in the meantime
You can 100% run Nahiri and Bridge at the same time, as long as you support it with your deck. In my list I frequently board in bridge and keep my Nahiri. At her worst with bridge out she's artifact, creature, and enchant removal and card advantage and tanks your opponents attacks if they manage to swing through bridge somehow. At her best she's all of the above and then you draw into an Oblivion Ring and use it to get rid of bridge and then swing in with emrakul.
Don't forget you can target your own bridge with O ring
On the leylines debate, I firmly believe the most competitive version of this deck is the PW heavy version (its certainly put up the best results), and in that version 2 leyline MB and 1-2 SB should be mandatory.
As for sup field, I personally don't run it because I run 10 pws in my list, 4x Nahiri 3x Chandra 3x new gideon, but if I didn't you'd better believe it would be a 4 of MB
Chandra and Nahiri really are the best/most versatile cards we play. Both provide excellent card advantage, both provide a must answer clock, and both provide removal. One hidden benefit that never gets talked about is that each also gives a sort of "virtual life gain". Sure, your life total never changes, but when your opponent swings at Nahiri with a 5/6 goyf she just essentially also gained you 5 life. Mix that concept with the fact that gone unanswered she wins the game in 3 turns and I just cannot think of an argument strong enough to suggest ditching the PW route.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
This is a powerful card that might not work for us, but is well worth a look.
With the split card nerf, I don't think landkill will be anywhere near as good as it once was.. Sad day indeed.
Assemble the Legion is the usual go to for a wincon in Bridge lists since 1/1 tokens easily attack under the bridge. I agree that AtL > Approach of the Second Sun in most cases, but then what if against any deck running counterspells? Just something to consider..
There is a heated discussion starting up about the new red hate-bear that I just mentioned. On one hand you've got people who think he's the red 2-drop that finally completes the cycle (Bob, Stoneforge, Goyf, Snapcaster) but on the other hand you've got people comparing him to Tunnel Ignus.
The best researched argument comes from Lantern who counted cards and estimated that the ability hits in excess of 25% of the commonly played cards in Modern, and particularly hoses decks like Affinity.
I personally think it's being oversold a bit. The other four either provide direct card advantage or are Tarmagoyf. This one only has the potential to add a bit of extra damage. That's powerful but I don't think it's a color defining staple. I think it could potentially help anchor a RW death and taxes sort of build, but that's not a certainty.
Ultimately I think it will probably end up in a D&T type build.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
I'd say he's good board-material for burn, but not much more than that. He's also pretty good against planeswalker-decks.
Expensive Nevermore? Also looks like this is specifically aimed at As Foretold
Also - Sweltering Suns has tested better than I at first thought it would. It's a 3 damage pyroclasm for 1RR that you can cycle for 3. I've never liked how sweepers always feel like you've got either too few or too many of them. This one new card made a sweep-heavy deck feel significantly smoother to play.
On the other hand I haven't yet had a moment where Gideon felt like a powerhouse. He never felt like a wasted card at least, but I don't think I've figured out the right plays yet.
- Powerhouse on curve.
- Not very good if you're on your back foot; he doesnt do much to stabilize the game unless your opponent is focused on going tall.
He tested surprisingly well in a bridge build, though. Because what you lose the ability to swing with his 4/4 mode, you make it very, very hard for your opponent to deal with the bridge and the emblem; between fogging any creatures that might be able to go under the bridge and forcing them to answer both him and the bridge before combat damage is relevant is a big swing.
Yes, can't beat can.
Also note, that it says our next endstep. So if we have Nahiri on 8 and opponent on <= 15 we can protect her by ending opponents turn and Emrakul and win before we lose the game on endstep.
I'm not a rule guru, but I think it's even possible to chain them as we skip the endstep. So with a Nahiri in play we could chain 2 Glorious End and then ult her.
Seems fragile, but also potentially super awesome in the prison shell.
Seems pretty sweet, but what do we cut for it? I was already struggling to make room for 2-3 gideons by skimming a single o-ring and 2 lightning helix since they are much less relevant in the current meta.
In the PW version the "core" at this point is:
4x Blood Moon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Nahiri, the Harbinger
3x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3x Gideon of the trials
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Anger of the gods
2x Wrath of god
1x Emrakul, the aeons torn
That's 30 slots. I usually prefer a lowish land count since SSG can usually get me to my top-end if I don't draw into lands (currently running 22) so that leaves 8 slots open. What do we want in those 8 slots? Competition is pretty high, right now the best cards to fill those spaces are:
Blessed Alliance - A beating vs most decks these days, gets around Hexproof, useless if they have 2 or more creatures they are swinging with and you really need to remove one.
Lightning Helix - Great vs Burn and Affinity and Infect, but not that relevant vs everything else. Seems like it's time to put it in the SB since we already have 8+ mainboard cards that are great vs those decks (Moon, Anger, Wrath, Chalice)
Stasis Snare More narrow than O-ring but instant speed, seems usable vs combo decks like grishoalbanned or abzan coco.
Glorious End Seems really interesting but only usable in 4 situations: 1) gideon is out with an emblem and isn't in danger of being removed at instant speed before our next end step. 2) We have multiple Glorious Ends in hand and can chain them. 3) Nahiri or Chandra are going to ult and win the game next turn before our end step. 4) We're going to die this turn/next turn anyway, and want to see if we can draw an answer/game winner before losing to the end step trigger.
Gideon Jura Another card that was/is useful vs decks that "go wide" but not great vs Deaths Shadow and 6/7 goyfs. I'd rather not pay 5 mana for a fog, which is what he ends up being more often than not vs most decks in the meta these days by the time we can cast him.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion She's a great PW and provides several bodies to block/attack with, but her casting cost means that she's not coming in until late game which is sometimes not a problem and sometimes super bad.
Leyline of Sanctity This card is more and more relevant these days. It seems that by far the most common turn 1 play nowadays is Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek and this handles both. It stops burn in it's tracks and severely hampers DSJ. The biggest plus is that it makes our PW's unboltable and seems like it gets more powerful now that we're playing 10-12 Planeswalkers
Chandra, Torch of Defiance I'm on a 3-of for her because i don't want to overcrowd the 4-drop slot but she's powerful enough to warrant 4 slots if there isn't something better.
Ajani Vengeant Ajani was only ever a 1 or 2 of at the most, and now that we have Gideon with his strictly better moveset minus the game-winning ultimate, I don't think he's worth the inclusion.
Ensnaring Bridge Less useful in the Nahiri version but still usable, relevant vs a large percentage of the meta but blanks 2 of our wincons (Gideon and Nahiri)
Runed Halo Fairly powerful in today's meta, you can name Death's Shadow, Goyf, Tasigur, Delver, Valakut, etc. Doesn't help vs token strategies / decks that go wide.
Oblivion Ring Broad-answer at sorcery speed, already run in the deck but you can always run more. I think its a bit slow/clunky to run 4.
Stony Silence / Harsh Mentor : too narrow for MB but great for SB
Rest In Peace slightly broader than SS/HM but at the same time means that if you draw emrakul you can't pitch it with nahiri. Probably not worth the slot MB.
Brimaz, King of Oreskos / Goblin Rabblemaster Both are solid self-contained armies that provide a fast clock if unanswered, but neither outclass Gideon of the Trials at the same CMC
I didn't include landkill cards/suppression field because those don't really fit the PW version's strategy and generally seem significantly worse with the split card rule change (well landkill does anyway). I certainly don't want to tell people how to play the game, but if you want to play a landkill deck it seems to me the best one these days is RG Ponza.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
Perhaps it's not a main deck card or just a singelton to keep our opponents on their toes. Like some blue decks play a single Mana Leak. I think it's definetly a sideboard option against Scapeshift (don't counter Scapeshift but the triggers after they sacced the lands, so they can't go off again), Ad Nauseum, Tooth& Nail as well as Through the Breach (which are both very bad matchups for us), other Nahiri decks that want to cheat out Emrakul, Cheerios and Storm.