Some thoughts on Mirrorpool... Card seems necessary in certain race scenarios like against storm. Costing 3 or 2 less on the front end and 4 less on the backend is great. Prevents various feel bad scenarios like paying for negation + summoner's (9 Mana and potentially losing). I think the question in many cases comes down to whether you want an effect that gets blown out by path or a remand. If it was an untapped land I would go as far as to say it's standard. It's hard to say much else, I mostly test in person so I can't get as many games in as you guys.
Another card I've been enjoying is spell burst. I blame this dabbling on my UTron experience but our deck is desperate for an effect that deals with path efficiently while having upside. It was hilariously strong against ad nauseam but that's a miniscule part of the meta. It's worth experimenting.
Lotus cobra has been decent but not game breaking. It helps get over the 5 Mana hurdle that seems to happen all the time (ssg had been the suggested tech to do this on the past). It also makes double strike a reasonable choice with a single amulet. I'm going to keep 2 and continue to trim the scouts for maze/cobra.
I faced junk, and lost because I keep a bad first game hand mostly. lose the first game, won the second (relic worked perfectly on this one) and lost the third one cause he landed a rhino and I found no threath. After he TS my summoners Pact I thought If I could fetch a Baloth to avoid him discard it... I sided out all the amulets and It felt OK but I was short on removal, I feel I need the third Dismember.
Second game I won against Lantern, he surgicaled summoner's pacts but it doesn't matter, got two clues form tracker, which where golden. Then won via titan + baloth (main board baloth) and second game won through Rabid Lettuce and Walking Ballista. This game all the time I was able to dmg under the bridge. and having Ballista and kessig open me two threaths which is difficult for lantern to deal with. I think he could kill ballista and then needle kessig to stop me for dealing dmg. I bealive having options is good.
Third game against burn, keep a slow hand and died with almost no interaction. I sided out also poorly, different from I use to in order to test my side cards... -1 amulet -4 Sakura tribe Scout -1 ghost quarter. +2 Stubborn Denial +1 Ruric +1 Chalice +1 pyroclasm +1 Reclamation sage.
At having less Tracker, Bots where all to the dome. I was able to cast a tracker and a ballista, but on his turn 2 I already where at 10. Next time I would side less heavy and increase body count =/, As I use to do.
Overall, baloth felt good in main board. Thragtusk is going to reeplace atarka, and chalice altough is great is kind of slow for the current meta in our deck (If we willing to fetch for it all relevant spells where going to be casted already). Also been thinking in adding a single Nature's Claim, It is good against affinity, infect (inkmoth), burn and moon decks for cheap.
Stubborn Denial will stay for a little more, a lot decks wait you with a path for you to cast a titan. On mainboard it is going to be 1 Tracker 1 SSG and 1 Walking Ballista.
Thanks davius foru your insight. It isn't a simple decision...
Stubborn seems great if you where able to land a titan, against path, and to narrow blood moon landing like turn 2, but spell pierce as you said will do a better job countering early bloodmoons/planeswalkers before titan.
I'll give another try to stubborn, but also another friend suggest me that spell pierce will do a better job at early stages. It is sad that I don't have enought time to test.
I'm a Swan Song kind of guy. It's a card I really want in most control/combo matchups, and it's the one that counters moon the best.
@Talgardo : I honestly don't think 3rd Dismember is the way to. And if it is the way to go, it's definitely not because of the Junk matchup. There you just want to throw down threat after threat, and eventually overwhelm them. Basically it's just a matter of your opp playing Goyfs while you're playing Hornet Queens... I know which side had the biggest chance there The Dismembers are there for the creature combo matchups (Vizier/Druid combo), Spell Quellers and Storm. I bring in Dismembers in the Junk Matchup, but mostly because they're better than Amulets and Stirrings and SSG and 3rd (and in my case 4th) Azusa. If you want to REALLY win the Junk matchup with removal, the card you want is Explosives. Now THAT one is a blowout.
I used to run Chalice off the board, but found that usually in the matchups you want it they're bringing in some kind of artifact hate. Also, the matchup where it was at it's best was Storm, and current iteration of Storm are just faster than they used to be, so they kill us before we get to drop the Chalice...
On another note, Puntthenwhine 5-0d again with the actual Amulet BLOOM list again! I wonder if this list is just the truth right now!
T1 Opponent plays Citadel, Opal, Springleaf, Ornithopter, Steel Overseer
T1 I play Crumbling Vestige and Ancient Stirrings which finds an Amulet.
T2 Opponent plays a Blinkmoth + Steel Overseer, acviates the Blinkmoth and puts counters on everything and swings for 2.
T2 I play Amulet, Simic, Explore, Botanical Sanctum, Ancient Stirrings which finds another Amulet.
T3 Opponent plays another Blinkmoth, + Master of Etherium(? not 100% sure), activates Blink, puts double counters and swings for 8 or 9.
T3 I play a second Amulet, Lotus Cobra, Boros Garrison(1st land play). Use the Cobra for G and float the excess WR while playing Azusa. Play Gruul Turf (2nd land) for 7 tota mana (Float U from Lotus), and play a Titan. With the land triggers on the stack my opponent Dispatches the Titan. I get Tolaria + Simic, transmute for summoner's and get a Titan while floating the remaining UG. Play Gruul again (3rd land and +5 mana) and second titan, getting Mirrorpool + Crumbling Vestige and copy the Titan which then gets Vesuva (on Boros) and Slayers(we all know the play here). I actually fizzle 2 mana here but already saw the lethal line on a tapped out opponent. Both Titans swing and I get 3 bounce lands + Kessig which then leads to +11 damage (should have been 15 but I forgot Cobra) on one Titan, opponent takes 27 and says "What the actual ****"
I know that Mirrorpool didn't really get me all the way there if I was simply playing Sunhome, but when sacrificing for the Kessig main it becomes way more important. I won two other games that day with Kessig beats (once on a Simian, and once on a Plant Token). Lotus Cobra ended up making 9-13 mana that turn and I can't imagine getting to lethal without it, and that was with TWO Ancient Stirrings. Either of those could have simply been a Root Maze slowing my opponent down by a turn or more.
@jacetotheface : That's completely gross and amazing. I LOVE getting those kind of comments from completely astounded opponents. Also, getting the tilt comments after a particularly impressive turn after opponents thought they couldn't lose is quite satisfying as well (you know, "they should have banned this deck even harder" kind of comment :P) Interesting deal with the Lotus Cobra, which I'm assuming you're playing instead of the other Snakes. Maybe it is the way to go, though if we're going that route I'd probably aim towards playing more Trackers MD, since we can use way better use of that mana with Tracker in the deck in the more midrangy matchups.
@AndreiCooper : Awesome result man, and welcome to the forum! I dig the more midrangy approach with 2 MD Trackers (I've already expressed my love for that card way too many times in this forum...) Ballista would have probably helped a bit in that finals vs Company, though Your list looks rock solid, and it's very close to what I'm currently running, though I really like the GQ in the maindeck while going up to 28 lands. I imagine you're not running Hornet Queen, but Mortuary Mire and the 3rd Tracker kinda make up for it in the midrange Matchups. The 3 Relics I expect are a meta call, right? You said you expected a lot of UWx control and Storm. Still, Ruric seems like an amazing card right now (with Storm and Lantern being quite popular currently) and it's the card I'm missing the most in your list. Still, love it and hopefully we'll see you around here more often!
Yea I've upped the trackers to 2 now. With cobra out you generally have plenty of mana very quickly and your Tracker can outgrow Goyfs and Shadows. I was hesitant before because 8 mana to get to a 7/6 (around when they seem to dominate any other creature) sounded like way too much but it's totally in reach as early as T4.
Also atarka dragonlord could work against humans, much better interaction than the Queen.
I'm really enthusiastic about Mortuary Mire / reclamation sage / Ballista (for a second kill) / Thragtusk. Just pure love going on!
Also find that in this recursive ways ranumap excavator would flavor well.
I think Queen is a must in the board. It's insane vs BGx and Control, and it's amazing vs Affinity like you said, and completely unbeatable vs the 5c Humans deck. I don't think there is another card that proves to be as useful in as many matchups as Queen is. And there are plenty of situations that do come up where Queen is literally your only out. Slug is crazy slow against affinity, and the protection from artifacts dude just dies to GalBlast. Besides being extremely narrow answers. Battlemage is kinda cute, but Rec Sage seems like it's just better in that spot, since it has uses vs Lantern, Bogles and it kills BM.
I did try Excavator, and it was really cool... but not at all necessary. Yes, you can recur your TWests, but after the 2nd or 3rd you often just run out of relevant targets to fetch for. The only thing which did come up was against Tron, where I got to assemble the Azusa/GQ/Excavator combo as early as turn 3. Needless to say it was fun for me... But I could have probably done Titan things and would have won anyways... Against Midrange and control decks I did bring it in, and it just died very easily without really giving me any real value. I just feel like Tracker is overall better at what Excavator wants to do.
I do dig the Mortuary Mire, and I did run it back in the day. Maybe it's time for it to shine again. Probably in place of the 3rd Tracker?
Proud to announce I won the LCQ for tomorrow's RPTQ, 28 players. Didn't make any changes to the deck. Matchup as follows:
R1: lantern 2-0
R2: eldrazi tron 2-1
R3: living end 2-1
R4: ID
R5: ID
quarter: UR breach 2-0
semi: jeskai control 2-0
finals: human company 2-0
UR breach was the matchup I was most worried about. Luckily in game1 I was able to accelerate with Simian Spirit Guide a turn early with blue pact to protect. In game2 he missed 2 land drops and I was able to beat him down before he get to cast breach.
What is your standard play with say 9 mana, a titan in hand, and maybe 1 amulet in play with the kessig version of the deck?
I think what feels powerful about mirrorpool is basically tutoring a second Titan during or post combat for 6 mana (mirrorpool +5) instead of 9, and then having mana left over to use that EE/whatever and/or just having a second titan to block (and not having a pact trigger next turn). Before Mirrorpool I remember letting huge amounts of available mana dissipate just because I didn't have the last one or two to get to a titan or I needed to use my hate cards and then go off on the next turn. I also remember regularly paying for double pact triggers that basically meant I did nothing my next turn.
And the Cobra/Vestige is very heavily a concession to 3 Root Maze MB. Comparing Scout to Lotus Cobra with that context makes the cards much closer.
Nothing exciting really. Round 1 against affinity, he was able to put up too much pressure too quickly, my opening was good but lack a bounceland and was dead before I got could draw it. Round 2 against abzan, game 3 got rekt by Fulminator Mage and wasn't able to recover in time. Round 3 against RG Vengevine, game 1 he aggro-ed me and game 2 got blood moon-ed.
The funny thing is, this RPTQ was held in Malaysia, and I am from Singapore (half a day drive awawy), and my first 3 opponents are also from Singapore (whom i knew), so it was abit upsetting. Thankfully my first round opponent (who is also my friend) went on into top8 and win the invitation, so I am happy for him.
As for deck choices, Amulet Titan is actually the only deck I can play with confident and operate to the fullest potential. I have tried other decks, but they all feel lacking in something. Plus, Amulet is fun to play with.
Hey, I’m PuntThenWhine on mtgo and I was actually formerly ChrisofPi before switching accounts due to changing PayPal accounts. I have had people tell me the past 2 years how bad lotus bloom and hive mind are in this deck. I can say with my current list I have a 76% match win ratio after 80 league matches and both of those cards have certainly pulled their weight. Not trying to tell you what to do, but those are just the facts. Also, if you want to talk about the deck or get proof I am who I say I am you can tweet at me at @puntthenwhine on Twitter. I’ll probably use that account to announce a twitch stream of the deck sometime in the next few weeks.
This is the list that suit me the most, Don't know if it is the optimal but is the one that give me the better results.
Yesterday I was able to win against Bant Eldrazi, Jund, and lost pretty badly against Dredge, but I noted some mayor mistakes, that card that make us dicard is odd... Maybe Baloth is worth to side in just to fight that card.
This weekend I have a sort of major event over 60 people, I'm bringing this deck:
Can't promise I'll be on this forum a lot, but I'll try to be responsive for the next couple of days.
1. I never board out bloom completely, but I have sometimes gone down 1-2 copies in a couple matchups. The top remand deck is storm and swan song/pact of negation kinda mitigate remand. I usually leave in all 4 copies vs storm just because it's an extra out to blood moon. As for chalice decks, I usually take out 1-2 vs eldrazi tron, but don't forget you can always blow up a chalice with EE if you cast it with colorless mana
2. I board out hive mind quite a bit actually. It's very matchup dependent. I like it a lot vs anything blue as well as traditional tron, but at least 1 copy comes out pretty often just because I need to make room and I don't want to dilute the main engine too much. Especially any matchup where I completely board out pact of negation (e.g. humans) hive mind definitely comes out.
3. Aether hub has been better than tendo ice bridge. The only downside to hub over ice bridge is it has a trigger when entering so people can respond by bolting Azusa. The deck really wants untapped lands that can tap for blue or green, and hub fits that bill. I think the downside on it has been better or me than botanical sanctum (which can't tap for red or black and can't be your last land drop for titan without amulet) or mana confluence.
4. Honestly, I don't really have a lot of bad matchups. Here are my win % against the decks which I have played at least 3 matches against:
Storm 78%
Traditional Tron 86%
Affinity 100%
5-Color Humans 86%
UW Control 80%
Eldrazi Tron 80%
Death's Shadow (Grixis, BUGR, or Jund) 67%
Mardu 33%
I have an excel doc with the more complete matchup data I can show off on stream as well.
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Another card I've been enjoying is spell burst. I blame this dabbling on my UTron experience but our deck is desperate for an effect that deals with path efficiently while having upside. It was hilariously strong against ad nauseam but that's a miniscule part of the meta. It's worth experimenting.
Lotus cobra has been decent but not game breaking. It helps get over the 5 Mana hurdle that seems to happen all the time (ssg had been the suggested tech to do this on the past). It also makes double strike a reasonable choice with a single amulet. I'm going to keep 2 and continue to trim the scouts for maze/cobra.
I faced junk, and lost because I keep a bad first game hand mostly. lose the first game, won the second (relic worked perfectly on this one) and lost the third one cause he landed a rhino and I found no threath. After he TS my summoners Pact I thought If I could fetch a Baloth to avoid him discard it... I sided out all the amulets and It felt OK but I was short on removal, I feel I need the third Dismember.
Second game I won against Lantern, he surgicaled summoner's pacts but it doesn't matter, got two clues form tracker, which where golden. Then won via titan + baloth (main board baloth) and second game won through Rabid Lettuce and Walking Ballista. This game all the time I was able to dmg under the bridge. and having Ballista and kessig open me two threaths which is difficult for lantern to deal with. I think he could kill ballista and then needle kessig to stop me for dealing dmg. I bealive having options is good.
Third game against burn, keep a slow hand and died with almost no interaction. I sided out also poorly, different from I use to in order to test my side cards... -1 amulet -4 Sakura tribe Scout -1 ghost quarter. +2 Stubborn Denial +1 Ruric +1 Chalice +1 pyroclasm +1 Reclamation sage.
At having less Tracker, Bots where all to the dome. I was able to cast a tracker and a ballista, but on his turn 2 I already where at 10. Next time I would side less heavy and increase body count =/, As I use to do.
Overall, baloth felt good in main board. Thragtusk is going to reeplace atarka, and chalice altough is great is kind of slow for the current meta in our deck (If we willing to fetch for it all relevant spells where going to be casted already). Also been thinking in adding a single Nature's Claim, It is good against affinity, infect (inkmoth), burn and moon decks for cheap.
Stubborn Denial will stay for a little more, a lot decks wait you with a path for you to cast a titan. On mainboard it is going to be 1 Tracker 1 SSG and 1 Walking Ballista.
Stubborn seems great if you where able to land a titan, against path, and to narrow blood moon landing like turn 2, but spell pierce as you said will do a better job countering early bloodmoons/planeswalkers before titan.
I'll give another try to stubborn, but also another friend suggest me that spell pierce will do a better job at early stages. It is sad that I don't have enought time to test.
@Talgardo : I honestly don't think 3rd Dismember is the way to. And if it is the way to go, it's definitely not because of the Junk matchup. There you just want to throw down threat after threat, and eventually overwhelm them. Basically it's just a matter of your opp playing Goyfs while you're playing Hornet Queens... I know which side had the biggest chance there
I used to run Chalice off the board, but found that usually in the matchups you want it they're bringing in some kind of artifact hate. Also, the matchup where it was at it's best was Storm, and current iteration of Storm are just faster than they used to be, so they kill us before we get to drop the Chalice...
On another note, Puntthenwhine 5-0d again with the actual Amulet BLOOM list again! I wonder if this list is just the truth right now!
I was on the draw...
T1 Opponent plays Citadel, Opal, Springleaf, Ornithopter, Steel Overseer
T1 I play Crumbling Vestige and Ancient Stirrings which finds an Amulet.
T2 Opponent plays a Blinkmoth + Steel Overseer, acviates the Blinkmoth and puts counters on everything and swings for 2.
T2 I play Amulet, Simic, Explore, Botanical Sanctum, Ancient Stirrings which finds another Amulet.
T3 Opponent plays another Blinkmoth, + Master of Etherium(? not 100% sure), activates Blink, puts double counters and swings for 8 or 9.
T3 I play a second Amulet, Lotus Cobra, Boros Garrison(1st land play). Use the Cobra for G and float the excess WR while playing Azusa. Play Gruul Turf (2nd land) for 7 tota mana (Float U from Lotus), and play a Titan. With the land triggers on the stack my opponent Dispatches the Titan. I get Tolaria + Simic, transmute for summoner's and get a Titan while floating the remaining UG. Play Gruul again (3rd land and +5 mana) and second titan, getting Mirrorpool + Crumbling Vestige and copy the Titan which then gets Vesuva (on Boros) and Slayers(we all know the play here). I actually fizzle 2 mana here but already saw the lethal line on a tapped out opponent. Both Titans swing and I get 3 bounce lands + Kessig which then leads to +11 damage (should have been 15 but I forgot Cobra) on one Titan, opponent takes 27 and says "What the actual ****"
I know that Mirrorpool didn't really get me all the way there if I was simply playing Sunhome, but when sacrificing for the Kessig main it becomes way more important. I won two other games that day with Kessig beats (once on a Simian, and once on a Plant Token). Lotus Cobra ended up making 9-13 mana that turn and I can't imagine getting to lethal without it, and that was with TWO Ancient Stirrings. Either of those could have simply been a Root Maze slowing my opponent down by a turn or more.
@AndreiCooper : Awesome result man, and welcome to the forum! I dig the more midrangy approach with 2 MD Trackers (I've already expressed my love for that card way too many times in this forum...) Ballista would have probably helped a bit in that finals vs Company, though
Also atarka dragonlord could work against humans, much better interaction than the Queen.
I'm really enthusiastic about Mortuary Mire / reclamation sage / Ballista (for a second kill) / Thragtusk. Just pure love going on!
Also find that in this recursive ways ranumap excavator would flavor well.
I did try Excavator, and it was really cool... but not at all necessary. Yes, you can recur your TWests, but after the 2nd or 3rd you often just run out of relevant targets to fetch for. The only thing which did come up was against Tron, where I got to assemble the Azusa/GQ/Excavator combo as early as turn 3. Needless to say it was fun for me... But I could have probably done Titan things and would have won anyways... Against Midrange and control decks I did bring it in, and it just died very easily without really giving me any real value. I just feel like Tracker is overall better at what Excavator wants to do.
I do dig the Mortuary Mire, and I did run it back in the day. Maybe it's time for it to shine again. Probably in place of the 3rd Tracker?
R1: lantern 2-0
R2: eldrazi tron 2-1
R3: living end 2-1
R4: ID
R5: ID
quarter: UR breach 2-0
semi: jeskai control 2-0
finals: human company 2-0
UR breach was the matchup I was most worried about. Luckily in game1 I was able to accelerate with Simian Spirit Guide a turn early with blue pact to protect. In game2 he missed 2 land drops and I was able to beat him down before he get to cast breach.
Hopefully I can continue to run as hot tomorrow.
I think what feels powerful about mirrorpool is basically tutoring a second Titan during or post combat for 6 mana (mirrorpool +5) instead of 9, and then having mana left over to use that EE/whatever and/or just having a second titan to block (and not having a pact trigger next turn). Before Mirrorpool I remember letting huge amounts of available mana dissipate just because I didn't have the last one or two to get to a titan or I needed to use my hate cards and then go off on the next turn. I also remember regularly paying for double pact triggers that basically meant I did nothing my next turn.
And the Cobra/Vestige is very heavily a concession to 3 Root Maze MB. Comparing Scout to Lotus Cobra with that context makes the cards much closer.
The funny thing is, this RPTQ was held in Malaysia, and I am from Singapore (half a day drive awawy), and my first 3 opponents are also from Singapore (whom i knew), so it was abit upsetting. Thankfully my first round opponent (who is also my friend) went on into top8 and win the invitation, so I am happy for him.
As for deck choices, Amulet Titan is actually the only deck I can play with confident and operate to the fullest potential. I have tried other decks, but they all feel lacking in something. Plus, Amulet is fun to play with.
I'm going back to it.
Yesterday I was able to win against Bant Eldrazi, Jund, and lost pretty badly against Dredge, but I noted some mayor mistakes, that card that make us dicard is odd... Maybe Baloth is worth to side in just to fight that card.
This weekend I have a sort of major event over 60 people, I'm bringing this deck:
4 Primeval Titan
4 Sakura-Tribe Scout
1 Walking Ballista
1 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Explore
1 Pact of Negation
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Amulet of Vigor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sunhome Fortress
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boros Garrison
1 Botanical Sanctum
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
3 Gruul Turf
1 Khalni Garden
1 Radiant Fountain
4 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Slayers' Stronghold
3 Forest
3 Tolaria West
1 Vesuva
1 Nature's Claim
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Pyroclasm
1 Firespout
2 Dismember
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
1 Hornet Queen
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Relic of Progenitus
Not sure if it is better to have 2 pyroclasm or 1 pyro 1 firespout or 2 kozilek return, but I find this one late against combo decks.
It is very nice @geedemorris that you join the forum, I'm hoping to test your lotus amulet list one day!
1. I never board out bloom completely, but I have sometimes gone down 1-2 copies in a couple matchups. The top remand deck is storm and swan song/pact of negation kinda mitigate remand. I usually leave in all 4 copies vs storm just because it's an extra out to blood moon. As for chalice decks, I usually take out 1-2 vs eldrazi tron, but don't forget you can always blow up a chalice with EE if you cast it with colorless mana
2. I board out hive mind quite a bit actually. It's very matchup dependent. I like it a lot vs anything blue as well as traditional tron, but at least 1 copy comes out pretty often just because I need to make room and I don't want to dilute the main engine too much. Especially any matchup where I completely board out pact of negation (e.g. humans) hive mind definitely comes out.
3. Aether hub has been better than tendo ice bridge. The only downside to hub over ice bridge is it has a trigger when entering so people can respond by bolting Azusa. The deck really wants untapped lands that can tap for blue or green, and hub fits that bill. I think the downside on it has been better or me than botanical sanctum (which can't tap for red or black and can't be your last land drop for titan without amulet) or mana confluence.
4. Honestly, I don't really have a lot of bad matchups. Here are my win % against the decks which I have played at least 3 matches against:
Storm 78%
Traditional Tron 86%
Affinity 100%
5-Color Humans 86%
UW Control 80%
Eldrazi Tron 80%
Death's Shadow (Grixis, BUGR, or Jund) 67%
Mardu 33%
I have an excel doc with the more complete matchup data I can show off on stream as well.