I have been wanting to try out Gideon. Was he the powerhouse I thought he would be?
He is really good in most match-ups, and just dominating against green decks. He's even reasonably ok in the Splinter Twin match, functioning as a Fog at the very least or demanding a cryptic to remove him before twin can go off.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion seems way too slow for 6 mana. It's not guaranteed to be a Wrath, which is problematic, and only gives me tokens. What deck do you want it for, maybe BGx? It seems bad against fast decks like Burn, Affinity, and Zoo, and it seems bad against combo as well. At 6 mana I would much rather play Karn. I've played with Elspeth quite a bit in Standard, it's overrated.
As for Gideon, I played him a bunch in UWR Control, he wasn't that great either. Sometimes he's a 5 mana removal spell, sometimes he buys you time. He's cool because you can tap out against Twin for him (assuming he will resolve) and not lose. I just feel like killing a tapped dude isn't that great, and you're rarely going to want to use the ultimate in this deck.
I also think Day is better than Verdict for casting reasons.
Against an empty board or one where the wrath is relevant, Elspeth is pretty good, and along with Gideon does a lot to put you ahead of any deck that plans to win through incremental advantage and 1-for-1 removal/discard trades. BGx is definitely where the cards do the most work, and both are effective tools to deal with an opposing Liliana Veil. They are also both relatively easy to cast and give you more threats that can function as answers while not needing Tron assembled to be cast, letting you develop board position against land destruction set backs. Neither is particularly strong vs the solitaire combo style decks, but I've still liked them recently in the main regardless.
WW2 is obviously easier to produce than WWU1, but it's honestly not that far apart in this particular deck due to signets (similarly D. Sphere isn't actually that much harder to cast than an O. Ring, and the upside is pretty huge), and I personally value the uncounterable clause enough that I think it can be a worthwhile choice.
I like Karn a lot too, likewise Ugin, but they cost more and honestly are at their best in the same matches that the white planeswalkers excel, and are bad in the matches the other two are bad.
Most of the time you won't get to play Elspeth into an empty board. She seems alright against a cluttered board from Junk because she can buy time, but we already know Karn is really good against BGx. Karn and Wurmcoil are cards we know are great against BGx, so it's not really going to matter much whether it's an Elspeth or Karn. I feel like Karn has a higher impact in many matchups, especially RG Tron which is typically awful. Karn is even fine against combo decks because you can exile a key card or even just a land, and stealing a card in their hand isn't the worst against a deck like Storm. Tron doesn't factor in if you're considering Karn vs Elspeth because one mana is typically negligible at 6+ mana.
With Gideon vs Junk specifically, I see him being good into empty boards but mediocre elsewhere. You might +2 him and then he gets hit next turn for a bunch, so he's just gaining you life as opposed to being proactive. You might -2 him immediately but your opponent has a couple of creatures in play, or a Kitchen Finks, or a man land, at which point they can just swing back and trade him off. And his ultimate makes him vulnerable to all their removal (Path, Slaughter Pact, etc) so it's not exactly that safe either. They usually get forced to leave in Path to handle creatures like Wurmcoil, Iona, or Sundering Titan, making him a target for their card that's fairly dead but still necessary. Wurmcoil, on the other hand, only dies to Path, and can immediately be proactive as it has Lifelink and Deathtouch. Karn could immediately exile a problem card to clear the way.
See, people keep telling me that Signets make Verdict not hard to cast. I don't think people aware is that we're still not playing the correct number of sources to have a 90% probability to cast it on turn 4. By Frank Karsten's math, we need 18 sources to reliably cast on turn 4, and we have typically 15ish, which is just not that great. You might end up at like 75 or 80% probability, which isn't really good when your option is to lose the game. I've run Verdict before, but as a 3rd Wrath effect because you then have the utility from Gifts. I don't think it being uncounterable is actually that relevant at all. I want that clause exactly against Geist, and people just aren't playing that card right now. It just doesn't particularly offer me much as opposed to making the card significantly easier to cast.
Hi guys, new UW Gifts player from Italy here, absolutely honored to join the company. I've read almost every single message of this awesome thread (especially the amazing Primer by darksteel88, I must admit) so I would like to know how exactly should the deck like right now, considering the actual metagame. I've recently bought/traded in all the cards I could possible need for my next FNM tournaments, still a little help on the build would be much appreciated. As I told, I'm quite new to the deck, but from my recent testings there's a couple of things I've noticed:
1) I guess one single black source to cast Unburial from hand is absolutely necessary (maybe mine was just bad luck, but it got stuck in my hand quite often and the fact opponents usually now we can only cast it from grave is a huge advantage we cannot afford).
2) Two Academy Ruins are nice, still a little sloppy because of the "legends rule".
3) I don't quite like the package Ugin/Emrakul, 'cause I hate with all my hearth lands which don't produce any mana; well, I know Eye can diminish the cost of Emrakul/Eldrazis in general and do some work as for tutoring a Wurmcoil, still I noticed that - even with Signets, Colonnades, shocklands and Coasts - we are more "color intenstive" than we'd like to admit.
4) Currently missing the SB Leylines, so my thoughts were on running a couple of Monastery Sieges, card that really shines vs. Burn (an archetype which should see even much play in the future due to the new R/G Command and the "mini Combust" printings from DTK) and can help us a lot with card selection while also acting as a "baby Thirst" (having an alternative to discard Rites/Iona/Elesh/Wurm could be game-winning, in some spots); do you think it could be a nice budget alternative in the meantime?
Thanks a lot for your kind answers,
Domenico
1. You're generally trying to avoid drawing it in your hand and if you do, looking for Thirst to discard it. The odds of drawing it in the first 12 cards is about 20%, so if you're drawing it too much, you might just be unlucky. You can play a black source, but as you pointed out that we are more colour intensive than we'd like to admit, you're making it harder for yourself.
2. You can use Buried Ruin as a substitute to avoid the Legend rule but you then are forced to have Crucible in play to combo off. Buried Ruins makes you sac it so you now have to have Crucible to put it back into play. You'd keep doing this until you found Academy Ruins, because Buried Ruin still mills yourself.
3. Don't consider Eye a land and you're fine. 24 lands is a perfectly reasonable number of lands to play. In Mindslaver versions of the deck, people tend to play only 24 lands. And yes, we're colour intensive, we know/expect trouble as a result but we can't avoid it. You're hopefully okay if you play 4-5 Signets and 12 coloured lands. If it's a problem for you, definitely do play Talisman of Progress
4. I wouldn't play Monastery Siege, I'd find more directed cards. Figure out what you want to beat and play cards to beat them. I'd consider cards like Celestial Purge, Rule of Law, Timely Reinforcements, Dispel, Negate, Wurmcoil, Karn, Ugin, Ghostly Prison, Suppression Field, and Pithing Needle. I think Monastery Siege is just to slow against mono red, and it doesn't gain you any life. You're going to turn 3 make them pay 3 mana for burn spells and hope that works? What if they opened with creatures? Probably going to be a problem.
Great! So what would "the perfect 75" look like, should I manage to put everything together by this Friday? By the way, I'll obviously let you guys know the outcome if I get to receive all the cards I need before next tournament.
This is what I'm playing right now. It's not perfect, I keep changing it when I play in daily events. It's a good starting point for now though.
Could Ojutai's Command have a place in UW Tron? I see it especially being useful in builds with snapcaster mage. There are plenty of creatures I would not mind countering (Siege Rhino, tarmogoyf, etc.) and drawing and gaining life can get us to our late game faster.
Also @darksteel, you have said you play in daily events, I was wondering if you ever record and stream your matches. From your experience piloting the deck, I think a lot of more novice UW Tron players could benefit from watching you.
Certainly, no pressure to do this, just a thought.
Could Ojutai's Command have a place in UW Tron? I see it especially being useful in builds with snapcaster mage. There are plenty of creatures I would not mind countering (Siege Rhino, tarmogoyf, etc.) and drawing and gaining life can get us to our late game faster.
Also @darksteel, you have said you play in daily events, I was wondering if you ever record and stream your matches. From your experience piloting the deck, I think a lot of more novice UW Tron players could benefit from watching you.
Certainly, no pressure to do this, just a thought.
I don't stream/record them but I might consider it. Cam Studio didn't really pan out for me the last time but maybe when I get some free time I can try.
As for Ojutai's Command, I would think not. Cryptic is playable because it's just such a good card. It doesn't need a spell to work and can proxy as a Wrath when it taps all their creatures. Ojutai's Command is not Cryptic Command. You only counter half the spells you're interested in countering. As a life gain card it's expensive (I'd board it out) so the only realistic modes are counter + draw. Sure, sometimes it will be relevant but I'm not going to mathematically consider fringe cases.
I'd rather play Condescend and just Scry 2, because realistically, Scrying 2 and then drawing on your turn is on average going to be as good as drawing and then drawing on your turn. That's to say that if I consider my next draw step as well, Condescend is Scry 2, draw a card, and Ojutai's is draw 2. The odds one of the two cards I draw is not useful is high enough that Condescend becomes better. It also scales a ton better, digs through more cards if you need a specific card, and can be used sometimes as a cheap early counter.
So you play it against BGx, that's great. What about Affinity, Infect, Burn, Twin, and Amulet? Against the first three it's simply too slow; you can't expect a 4cmc card to be worth it. Condescend, on the other hand, can counter 2-drop creatures from Infect on the play, a ton of Affinity stuff, it's live to save you life against Burn, and it's also just live at any time against these decks because of their low mana counts. Against Twin, you can counter a Pestermite/Exarch/Snap/Clique, but you can't counter their Blood Moon, Twin, or counters. When Twin boards in cheaper counters, an expensive counter seems bad. Against Amulet it's bad because they can just find Cavern of Souls.
So again, you get to play it against BGx, which is fine, but there are much better cards against them.
-Purge is just way too good of a card here. It hits Blood Moon, Liliana, Siege Rhino, Pyromancer Ascension, Tasigur, Splinter Twin and even the occasional Bob. It basically answers every deck we care about, besides RG Tron and Affinity.
-In my opinion, Swan Song is good. I only side it in against decks that try and combo off early and the 2/2 it leaves behind isn't too much of a problem unless the game goes on for too long. It also gives us another answer to enchantments.
-2 Timely and a Verdict might seem a bit much but I've found them to work wonders when you're forced to go the control route if they are able to graveyard hate you out. Also being able to gifts for a wrath package is really lifesaving.
-Trying out another spellskite to help deal with infect. It also eats paths against junk which is a plus and is a short term answer for burn decks.
-I've removed both Ghostly Prisons as I don't find them doing what I want them to do. They come down too late and don't really beat any decks. I have enough hate for affinity and burn already, and infect beats me before I'm able to drop it most of the time. I might eventually put it back in as a one-of but for now, it's out.
-Pact of Negations just sits dead in my hand so it's out as well.
I played my version of the deck in a PPTQ and did pretty bad :(. I played both Emrakul and Mindslaver and I found myself siding out Emrakul/Eye almost every game. I would definitely move to the Mindslaver package darksteel88 talks about above.
what do you think about this card as an alternative wincon? surely better then white sun's zenith due to an easier mana cost...any thoughts?
The key component about finishers in a control deck, is that they have to be able to win you the game while protecting you at the same time. Iona while a 7/7 beater, shuts down a color (which is often enough to win the game), Elesh Norn tends to wrath the field and prevents them from playing any further creatures while pumping yours. Wurmcoil hits hard, has lifelink, and has sustainability with the tokens. Batterskull has vigiliance and lifelink so it can hit hard and still block. Mindslaver buys you a turn at worst and at best can completely destroy your opponents hand/board.
While secure the wastes gets you a bunch of tokens. Firstly, you can't cheat this into play (like you can iona/elesh/wurm), so lets say your hard casting this for 9 mana. Would you rather have 8 1/1s or Iona? I would take iona 99% of the time.
Obviously there's hilarious synergy with elesh but that seems limited in scope.
This might be better for a traditional control deck but not for us. We can do much better if we get to a large amount of mana which makes this card mediocre. At what points of mana do you want to use this card, realistically?
4 mana I want to be casting like a Gifts or Wrath
6-8 mana I want to be doing some sort of Wurmcoil, Mindslaver, Karn, Ugin, etc
9 mana I want to use Iona
12+ mana I want to be going for Emrakul or Mindslaver lock.
Hi I'm very new to this deck, but played it at my last FNM and went 3:1 just lost to twin in the first round because i gifted badly...
Anyways I have a question about oblivion ring:
Why are we playing that card, when we can't gift for it?
Wouldn't it be better to have banishing light & detention sphere mainboard as well, to make sure we get at least one of these effects guaranteed ? - like we do with the sweeper package as well?
Oblivion Ring as an effect just isn't good enough for me to ever want 3 copies of it. It's good as just a silver bullet answer to random stuff like Karn, Liliana, or even Emrakul. But as a card on its own, it really doesn't do much. It's 3 mana removal that doesn't hit as much as you want it to, and is sorcery speed. It makes it bad against combo decks. It's also weak against Junk/Jund because of Abrupt Decay.
Hey all!
I'm very curious about U/W Tron. I love unfair *****, I love control, I love tron lands and I love gifts! I wanted to ask a few questions about the deck as well as some gifts questions. Hopefully you guys don't mind!
- Whats holding this deck back? What is/are the main reasons that this isn't considered T1/T2 etc.
- I've played a lot of online MTG but I'm thinking of investing real money into a real deck for competitive purposes (I don't need a 'winning deck') just something that can develop me as a player/pilot and involves interesting mechanics! I'm also hoping to bring the deck to GP singapore in June (Hopefully) Simply speaking - is this a good deck to build in paper for competitive aspirations?
Next
I'm having a lot of trouble understanding how to get what I want with Gifts. I understand the obvious (Unburial+Iona/the other op one) but is there a way to explain the recursion for example if I wanted something like an Eye of Ugin. I understand this is an extremely open question but I'm confused, If I could have some light in the dark I'd really appreciate it. I'm currently running the 'primer decklist' on cockatrice.
Hey all!
I'm very curious about U/W Tron. I love unfair *****, I love control, I love tron lands and I love gifts! I wanted to ask a few questions about the deck as well as some gifts questions. Hopefully you guys don't mind!
- Whats holding this deck back? What is/are the main reasons that this isn't considered T1/T2 etc.
- I've played a lot of online MTG but I'm thinking of investing real money into a real deck for competitive purposes (I don't need a 'winning deck') just something that can develop me as a player/pilot and involves interesting mechanics! I'm also hoping to bring the deck to GP singapore in June (Hopefully) Simply speaking - is this a good deck to build in paper for competitive aspirations?
Next
I'm having a lot of trouble understanding how to get what I want with Gifts. I understand the obvious (Unburial+Iona/the other op one) but is there a way to explain the recursion for example if I wanted something like an Eye of Ugin. I understand this is an extremely open question but I'm confused, If I could have some light in the dark I'd really appreciate it. I'm currently running the 'primer decklist' on cockatrice.
Thanks a lot,
Tokyo
The deck isn't inherently as powerful as other decks in the format. Twin, Abzan, Burn, Infect, Affinity, they're very good decks and they're doing powerful things. 4 of those decks try to win on turn 4, and the 5th has good answers while being proactive. Our deck is reactive, and while it can do some powerful things, it's not as powerful as those, I feel.
Another reason is how our matchups are. We have good average matchups but that doesn't mean we're going to do well. With 50/50s against these decks, you're more so taking gambles in several rounds. That's not exactly what you want to be doing. We have a very bad RG Tron matchup as well as a very bad matchup against any deck playing a Loam + Tec Edge package. I tend to hope to dodge RG Tron/Loam and just get lucky.
Lastly, people playing it is holding it back. Decks like Abzan and Burn do well partially because of how many people play the deck. With little to no people playing UW Tron, it's hard to put up results.
With respect to it being competitive, it's semi-competitive. It's good enough for MTGO or FNM for sure, and people have played it at GPs. Would I want to take it? I'd have to do a lot of testing and feel very comfortable. There are many other decks that are probably better to take, and I would inherently look to those before taking UW Tron.
Gifts is an inherently difficult card to play with because it's difficult to decide what you want. If you're not going for the combo, you're often going for specific hate cards (taking 4 means you can get 2 of them), or searching for value like Gifts, Thirst, Remand, Snapcaster or whatever you think is value.
My dilemma is the mix between between I love and what does well. I'm a competitive person and so I want to do well but I would never be able to mentally play something like burn. Another problem being that as a student and a newer competitive player I'm not sure if I can develop my skills as a pilot to give me an advantage over other players if my deck is slightly less powerful.
Not sure how to thank you enough! Much, much love!
Looking to pick up UW Tron again after putting it down for about a year. How has Ugin been for those that have played it? Is it a main deck card?
It's certainly a card but I'm not sure to what extent right now. I originally put it in the MB, then moved it to the SB. Ugin is really good when it's good, but it's not always good. Against some of the fast decks, it's too slow, and it's a bit of a trap because it seems good. I think it's particularly good against BGx because they usually scoop to it resolving.
Sundering Titan, according to a friend of mine who plays Tron a ton, does nothing you want. It's only really good against zoo decks, but even then it is too slow. It's not really fantastic against Abzan and Jeskai decks as it doesn't deal with their manlands.
I don't like Timely. It's just going to eat a skullcrack or atarka's command. You ahve 4 leylines anyway for the burn matchup.
I saw that R/G Tron is this deck's worst matchup. I like having disenchant to help with the matchup by a few percent points. It's also something to bring in against the two prominent blood moon decks - Twin and Blue Moon, as it hits a lot of relevant spells in those decks. Great against Affinity, which I found darksteel's list to be not having enough sideboard slots against (it's an ok matchup, but you want to be boarding out a lot of cards and his list doesn't have enough to bring in). Also good vs. random stuff like 8rack and Bogles and Tokens. Hits Stony Silence as well, but only bring it in against decks that run stony silence and other artifacts and enchantments that you want to kill i.e. don't bring it in vs Abzan.
I added a 2nd Spellskite because **** infect. It's also ok against burn, which makes up a little for the timely reinforcements that I took out from the deck.
The good thing about picking up UW Tron is that I don't see myself spending any money on DTK cards - none of the new cards look like something I would cut from the deck to make room for. None of them seem to make any existing deck a worse matchup for this deck as well.
Yeah, Sundering Titan is a beast against Zoo but surprisingly mediocre against Abzan in testing. I've seen some lists start playing Sigarda against Abzan, which doesn't seem that bad. Being able to block most of their creatures efficiently and having both Liliana protection and the ability to kill her seems really good. I may end up testing this sometime.
Burn is a matchup where I feel like Leyline isn't going to solely win you a game. I've actually lost to Burn having resolved Leyline and Spellskite to protect it. The thing is that we don't particularly interact well with fast decks like Burn or Infect, which is why I've liked the Timely. I can certainly see going to a second Spellskite though, it's just a good card in general and it does still cover Burn.
As far as Disenchant goes, I can see putting it back, as we are a 50/50 vs Affinity. I'm not sure it's the best against RG Tron, it's not bad but I feel like if you don't t2 it on the play, you're probably not getting the value you need out of it. It's good against Boggles and 8Rack to be sure, though we have a favourable 8Rack matchup anyways since they scoop to Iona. With respect to Stony Silence, most decks bringing it in are UWR Control and Abzan decks, at which point we don't really want to bring it in. It makes the card a lot less impressive as an answer to Stony Silence, especially when non-Geist UWR decks are really good matchups.
I'm still not sure what the right game plan is against Abzan. I do some testing and find out I can never get even 6 mana to cast Wurmcoil, then other times I've got more mana than I know what to do with. I think if we go to a Mindslaver plan and play Crucible, going bigger on cards like Wurmcoil is probably the plan.
Yeah, Sundering Titan is a beast against Zoo but surprisingly mediocre against Abzan in testing. I've seen some lists start playing Sigarda against Abzan, which doesn't seem that bad. Being able to block most of their creatures efficiently and having both Liliana protection and the ability to kill her seems really good. I may end up testing this sometime.
Burn is a matchup where I feel like Leyline isn't going to solely win you a game. I've actually lost to Burn having resolved Leyline and Spellskite to protect it. The thing is that we don't particularly interact well with fast decks like Burn or Infect, which is why I've liked the Timely. I can certainly see going to a second Spellskite though, it's just a good card in general and it does still cover Burn.
As far as Disenchant goes, I can see putting it back, as we are a 50/50 vs Affinity. I'm not sure it's the best against RG Tron, it's not bad but I feel like if you don't t2 it on the play, you're probably not getting the value you need out of it. It's good against Boggles and 8Rack to be sure, though we have a favourable 8Rack matchup anyways since they scoop to Iona. With respect to Stony Silence, most decks bringing it in are UWR Control and Abzan decks, at which point we don't really want to bring it in. It makes the card a lot less impressive as an answer to Stony Silence, especially when non-Geist UWR decks are really good matchups.
I'm still not sure what the right game plan is against Abzan. I do some testing and find out I can never get even 6 mana to cast Wurmcoil, then other times I've got more mana than I know what to do with. I think if we go to a Mindslaver plan and play Crucible, going bigger on cards like Wurmcoil is probably the plan.
Sigarda is very good against abzan, but she cannot be casted which is why I would be uncomfortable adding her.
Doesn't leyline buy you enough time to gifts into Iona against Burn?
Disenchant is also great against infect. I agree that against the most common decks playing stony silence it should not be brought in.
Against Abzan, Sower of temptation is very good. Perhaps a sideboard like this:
Yeah, Sundering Titan is a beast against Zoo but surprisingly mediocre against Abzan in testing. I've seen some lists start playing Sigarda against Abzan, which doesn't seem that bad. Being able to block most of their creatures efficiently and having both Liliana protection and the ability to kill her seems really good. I may end up testing this sometime.
Burn is a matchup where I feel like Leyline isn't going to solely win you a game. I've actually lost to Burn having resolved Leyline and Spellskite to protect it. The thing is that we don't particularly interact well with fast decks like Burn or Infect, which is why I've liked the Timely. I can certainly see going to a second Spellskite though, it's just a good card in general and it does still cover Burn.
As far as Disenchant goes, I can see putting it back, as we are a 50/50 vs Affinity. I'm not sure it's the best against RG Tron, it's not bad but I feel like if you don't t2 it on the play, you're probably not getting the value you need out of it. It's good against Boggles and 8Rack to be sure, though we have a favourable 8Rack matchup anyways since they scoop to Iona. With respect to Stony Silence, most decks bringing it in are UWR Control and Abzan decks, at which point we don't really want to bring it in. It makes the card a lot less impressive as an answer to Stony Silence, especially when non-Geist UWR decks are really good matchups.
I'm still not sure what the right game plan is against Abzan. I do some testing and find out I can never get even 6 mana to cast Wurmcoil, then other times I've got more mana than I know what to do with. I think if we go to a Mindslaver plan and play Crucible, going bigger on cards like Wurmcoil is probably the plan.
Sigarda is very good against abzan, but she cannot be casted which is why I would be uncomfortable adding her.
Doesn't leyline buy you enough time to gifts into Iona against Burn?
Disenchant is also great against infect. I agree that against the most common decks playing stony silence it should not be brought in.
Against Abzan, Sower of temptation is very good. Perhaps a sideboard like this:
Typically I don't mind that I can't cast the card from Gifts that much. Abzan is a deck that you have a bit of time against because they're not killing you on turn 4. I've played Terastodon before, and it's really good against RG Tron. It doesn't matter that much that you can't cast it. I suppose because of Ooze it's a bit more of a problem against Abzan but I think it's still fine. I've found Abzan gets to top decks a lot, and they tend to slow down post-board, electing to grind you out with cards like Fulminator Mage and artifact hate. It makes a slower plan like her a lot better.
Leyline can sometimes buy you that time, and other times just not do anything. They're playing 4 Destructive Revelry, so it's not always a slam dunk. Some versions still play Bump in the Night as well, and you can get into situations where you resolve Iona at a low life total and die to Bump. In fact, there was one Daily game where I resolved Iona at 3 life, he drew Bump with 3 black sources, and I had triple Remand. There's also the fact that you have to opening hand the Leyline, which is still only about a 40% chance factoring in one mulligan. Sometimes you just don't get there.
Sower could be good, but I'm always hesitant because they tend to keep in removal like Path. Still, I guess if they have only 5 answers for it post board it might not be the worst. I think I'd rather try the Sigarda first and see how it goes because I think it has the better potential. I just don't see them ever beating that card when it resolves unless you're already so far behind that you're dead. It blocks everything except a 5/6 or bigger Goyf, and it kills Liliana when you need it to as well, not to mention they have 0 ways of killing her. Her mana cost also works well with Ugin so you don't have to remove her. I don't know why I never thought about her before, maybe because Abzan wasn't that big of a deal and I could always Iona vs Jund.
He is really good in most match-ups, and just dominating against green decks. He's even reasonably ok in the Splinter Twin match, functioning as a Fog at the very least or demanding a cryptic to remove him before twin can go off.
Against an empty board or one where the wrath is relevant, Elspeth is pretty good, and along with Gideon does a lot to put you ahead of any deck that plans to win through incremental advantage and 1-for-1 removal/discard trades. BGx is definitely where the cards do the most work, and both are effective tools to deal with an opposing Liliana Veil. They are also both relatively easy to cast and give you more threats that can function as answers while not needing Tron assembled to be cast, letting you develop board position against land destruction set backs. Neither is particularly strong vs the solitaire combo style decks, but I've still liked them recently in the main regardless.
WW2 is obviously easier to produce than WWU1, but it's honestly not that far apart in this particular deck due to signets (similarly D. Sphere isn't actually that much harder to cast than an O. Ring, and the upside is pretty huge), and I personally value the uncounterable clause enough that I think it can be a worthwhile choice.
I like Karn a lot too, likewise Ugin, but they cost more and honestly are at their best in the same matches that the white planeswalkers excel, and are bad in the matches the other two are bad.
With Gideon vs Junk specifically, I see him being good into empty boards but mediocre elsewhere. You might +2 him and then he gets hit next turn for a bunch, so he's just gaining you life as opposed to being proactive. You might -2 him immediately but your opponent has a couple of creatures in play, or a Kitchen Finks, or a man land, at which point they can just swing back and trade him off. And his ultimate makes him vulnerable to all their removal (Path, Slaughter Pact, etc) so it's not exactly that safe either. They usually get forced to leave in Path to handle creatures like Wurmcoil, Iona, or Sundering Titan, making him a target for their card that's fairly dead but still necessary. Wurmcoil, on the other hand, only dies to Path, and can immediately be proactive as it has Lifelink and Deathtouch. Karn could immediately exile a problem card to clear the way.
See, people keep telling me that Signets make Verdict not hard to cast. I don't think people aware is that we're still not playing the correct number of sources to have a 90% probability to cast it on turn 4. By Frank Karsten's math, we need 18 sources to reliably cast on turn 4, and we have typically 15ish, which is just not that great. You might end up at like 75 or 80% probability, which isn't really good when your option is to lose the game. I've run Verdict before, but as a 3rd Wrath effect because you then have the utility from Gifts. I don't think it being uncounterable is actually that relevant at all. I want that clause exactly against Geist, and people just aren't playing that card right now. It just doesn't particularly offer me much as opposed to making the card significantly easier to cast.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
1. You're generally trying to avoid drawing it in your hand and if you do, looking for Thirst to discard it. The odds of drawing it in the first 12 cards is about 20%, so if you're drawing it too much, you might just be unlucky. You can play a black source, but as you pointed out that we are more colour intensive than we'd like to admit, you're making it harder for yourself.
2. You can use Buried Ruin as a substitute to avoid the Legend rule but you then are forced to have Crucible in play to combo off. Buried Ruins makes you sac it so you now have to have Crucible to put it back into play. You'd keep doing this until you found Academy Ruins, because Buried Ruin still mills yourself.
3. Don't consider Eye a land and you're fine. 24 lands is a perfectly reasonable number of lands to play. In Mindslaver versions of the deck, people tend to play only 24 lands. And yes, we're colour intensive, we know/expect trouble as a result but we can't avoid it. You're hopefully okay if you play 4-5 Signets and 12 coloured lands. If it's a problem for you, definitely do play Talisman of Progress
4. I wouldn't play Monastery Siege, I'd find more directed cards. Figure out what you want to beat and play cards to beat them. I'd consider cards like Celestial Purge, Rule of Law, Timely Reinforcements, Dispel, Negate, Wurmcoil, Karn, Ugin, Ghostly Prison, Suppression Field, and Pithing Needle. I think Monastery Siege is just to slow against mono red, and it doesn't gain you any life. You're going to turn 3 make them pay 3 mana for burn spells and hope that works? What if they opened with creatures? Probably going to be a problem.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
3 Seachrome Coast
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
Creatures: 5
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Azorius Signet
3 Expedition Map
Instants: 19
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Remand
4 Path to Exile
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Cyclonic Rift
2 Condescend
Sorceries: 4
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Unburial Rites
3 Negate
1 Spellskite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Celestial Purge
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Ghostly Prison
2 Timely Reinforcements
If you would rather play Mindslaver, you could cut:
Emrakul for Mindslaver
Eye for Crucible
Two lands for Two Academy Ruins
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Also @darksteel, you have said you play in daily events, I was wondering if you ever record and stream your matches. From your experience piloting the deck, I think a lot of more novice UW Tron players could benefit from watching you.
Certainly, no pressure to do this, just a thought.
As for Ojutai's Command, I would think not. Cryptic is playable because it's just such a good card. It doesn't need a spell to work and can proxy as a Wrath when it taps all their creatures. Ojutai's Command is not Cryptic Command. You only counter half the spells you're interested in countering. As a life gain card it's expensive (I'd board it out) so the only realistic modes are counter + draw. Sure, sometimes it will be relevant but I'm not going to mathematically consider fringe cases.
I'd rather play Condescend and just Scry 2, because realistically, Scrying 2 and then drawing on your turn is on average going to be as good as drawing and then drawing on your turn. That's to say that if I consider my next draw step as well, Condescend is Scry 2, draw a card, and Ojutai's is draw 2. The odds one of the two cards I draw is not useful is high enough that Condescend becomes better. It also scales a ton better, digs through more cards if you need a specific card, and can be used sometimes as a cheap early counter.
So you play it against BGx, that's great. What about Affinity, Infect, Burn, Twin, and Amulet? Against the first three it's simply too slow; you can't expect a 4cmc card to be worth it. Condescend, on the other hand, can counter 2-drop creatures from Infect on the play, a ton of Affinity stuff, it's live to save you life against Burn, and it's also just live at any time against these decks because of their low mana counts. Against Twin, you can counter a Pestermite/Exarch/Snap/Clique, but you can't counter their Blood Moon, Twin, or counters. When Twin boards in cheaper counters, an expensive counter seems bad. Against Amulet it's bad because they can just find Cavern of Souls.
So again, you get to play it against BGx, which is fine, but there are much better cards against them.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
2x Swan Song
1x Negate
2x Timely Reinforcements
1x Supreme Verdict
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Spellskite
Changes:
-Purge is just way too good of a card here. It hits Blood Moon, Liliana, Siege Rhino, Pyromancer Ascension, Tasigur, Splinter Twin and even the occasional Bob. It basically answers every deck we care about, besides RG Tron and Affinity.
-In my opinion, Swan Song is good. I only side it in against decks that try and combo off early and the 2/2 it leaves behind isn't too much of a problem unless the game goes on for too long. It also gives us another answer to enchantments.
-2 Timely and a Verdict might seem a bit much but I've found them to work wonders when you're forced to go the control route if they are able to graveyard hate you out. Also being able to gifts for a wrath package is really lifesaving.
-Trying out another spellskite to help deal with infect. It also eats paths against junk which is a plus and is a short term answer for burn decks.
-I've removed both Ghostly Prisons as I don't find them doing what I want them to do. They come down too late and don't really beat any decks. I have enough hate for affinity and burn already, and infect beats me before I'm able to drop it most of the time. I might eventually put it back in as a one-of but for now, it's out.
-Pact of Negations just sits dead in my hand so it's out as well.
The key component about finishers in a control deck, is that they have to be able to win you the game while protecting you at the same time. Iona while a 7/7 beater, shuts down a color (which is often enough to win the game), Elesh Norn tends to wrath the field and prevents them from playing any further creatures while pumping yours. Wurmcoil hits hard, has lifelink, and has sustainability with the tokens. Batterskull has vigiliance and lifelink so it can hit hard and still block. Mindslaver buys you a turn at worst and at best can completely destroy your opponents hand/board.
While secure the wastes gets you a bunch of tokens. Firstly, you can't cheat this into play (like you can iona/elesh/wurm), so lets say your hard casting this for 9 mana. Would you rather have 8 1/1s or Iona? I would take iona 99% of the time.
Obviously there's hilarious synergy with elesh but that seems limited in scope.
4 mana I want to be casting like a Gifts or Wrath
6-8 mana I want to be doing some sort of Wurmcoil, Mindslaver, Karn, Ugin, etc
9 mana I want to use Iona
12+ mana I want to be going for Emrakul or Mindslaver lock.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
I'm very curious about U/W Tron. I love unfair *****, I love control, I love tron lands and I love gifts! I wanted to ask a few questions about the deck as well as some gifts questions. Hopefully you guys don't mind!
- Whats holding this deck back? What is/are the main reasons that this isn't considered T1/T2 etc.
- I've played a lot of online MTG but I'm thinking of investing real money into a real deck for competitive purposes (I don't need a 'winning deck') just something that can develop me as a player/pilot and involves interesting mechanics! I'm also hoping to bring the deck to GP singapore in June (Hopefully) Simply speaking - is this a good deck to build in paper for competitive aspirations?
Next
I'm having a lot of trouble understanding how to get what I want with Gifts. I understand the obvious (Unburial+Iona/the other op one) but is there a way to explain the recursion for example if I wanted something like an Eye of Ugin. I understand this is an extremely open question but I'm confused, If I could have some light in the dark I'd really appreciate it. I'm currently running the 'primer decklist' on cockatrice.
Thanks a lot,
Tokyo
The deck isn't inherently as powerful as other decks in the format. Twin, Abzan, Burn, Infect, Affinity, they're very good decks and they're doing powerful things. 4 of those decks try to win on turn 4, and the 5th has good answers while being proactive. Our deck is reactive, and while it can do some powerful things, it's not as powerful as those, I feel.
Another reason is how our matchups are. We have good average matchups but that doesn't mean we're going to do well. With 50/50s against these decks, you're more so taking gambles in several rounds. That's not exactly what you want to be doing. We have a very bad RG Tron matchup as well as a very bad matchup against any deck playing a Loam + Tec Edge package. I tend to hope to dodge RG Tron/Loam and just get lucky.
Lastly, people playing it is holding it back. Decks like Abzan and Burn do well partially because of how many people play the deck. With little to no people playing UW Tron, it's hard to put up results.
With respect to it being competitive, it's semi-competitive. It's good enough for MTGO or FNM for sure, and people have played it at GPs. Would I want to take it? I'd have to do a lot of testing and feel very comfortable. There are many other decks that are probably better to take, and I would inherently look to those before taking UW Tron.
Gifts is an inherently difficult card to play with because it's difficult to decide what you want. If you're not going for the combo, you're often going for specific hate cards (taking 4 means you can get 2 of them), or searching for value like Gifts, Thirst, Remand, Snapcaster or whatever you think is value.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
My dilemma is the mix between between I love and what does well. I'm a competitive person and so I want to do well but I would never be able to mentally play something like burn. Another problem being that as a student and a newer competitive player I'm not sure if I can develop my skills as a pilot to give me an advantage over other players if my deck is slightly less powerful.
Not sure how to thank you enough! Much, much love!
- Tokyo
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
I can't find a list I liked so I took darksteel's most recent list and tweaked the sideboard to my liking.
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells (30)
2 Condescend
3 Expedition Map
4 Path to Exile
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Azorius Signet
4 Remand
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Day of Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Seachrome Coast
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
2 Celestial Purge
2 Disenchant
2 Spellskite
3 Negate
1 Ghostly Prison
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
The changes I made to the sideboard were:
-1 Sundering Titan
-2 Timely Reinforcements
+2 Disenchant
+1 Spellskite
Sundering Titan, according to a friend of mine who plays Tron a ton, does nothing you want. It's only really good against zoo decks, but even then it is too slow. It's not really fantastic against Abzan and Jeskai decks as it doesn't deal with their manlands.
I don't like Timely. It's just going to eat a skullcrack or atarka's command. You ahve 4 leylines anyway for the burn matchup.
I saw that R/G Tron is this deck's worst matchup. I like having disenchant to help with the matchup by a few percent points. It's also something to bring in against the two prominent blood moon decks - Twin and Blue Moon, as it hits a lot of relevant spells in those decks. Great against Affinity, which I found darksteel's list to be not having enough sideboard slots against (it's an ok matchup, but you want to be boarding out a lot of cards and his list doesn't have enough to bring in). Also good vs. random stuff like 8rack and Bogles and Tokens. Hits Stony Silence as well, but only bring it in against decks that run stony silence and other artifacts and enchantments that you want to kill i.e. don't bring it in vs Abzan.
I added a 2nd Spellskite because **** infect. It's also ok against burn, which makes up a little for the timely reinforcements that I took out from the deck.
The good thing about picking up UW Tron is that I don't see myself spending any money on DTK cards - none of the new cards look like something I would cut from the deck to make room for. None of them seem to make any existing deck a worse matchup for this deck as well.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Burn is a matchup where I feel like Leyline isn't going to solely win you a game. I've actually lost to Burn having resolved Leyline and Spellskite to protect it. The thing is that we don't particularly interact well with fast decks like Burn or Infect, which is why I've liked the Timely. I can certainly see going to a second Spellskite though, it's just a good card in general and it does still cover Burn.
As far as Disenchant goes, I can see putting it back, as we are a 50/50 vs Affinity. I'm not sure it's the best against RG Tron, it's not bad but I feel like if you don't t2 it on the play, you're probably not getting the value you need out of it. It's good against Boggles and 8Rack to be sure, though we have a favourable 8Rack matchup anyways since they scoop to Iona. With respect to Stony Silence, most decks bringing it in are UWR Control and Abzan decks, at which point we don't really want to bring it in. It makes the card a lot less impressive as an answer to Stony Silence, especially when non-Geist UWR decks are really good matchups.
I'm still not sure what the right game plan is against Abzan. I do some testing and find out I can never get even 6 mana to cast Wurmcoil, then other times I've got more mana than I know what to do with. I think if we go to a Mindslaver plan and play Crucible, going bigger on cards like Wurmcoil is probably the plan.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Sigarda is very good against abzan, but she cannot be casted which is why I would be uncomfortable adding her.
Doesn't leyline buy you enough time to gifts into Iona against Burn?
Disenchant is also great against infect. I agree that against the most common decks playing stony silence it should not be brought in.
Against Abzan, Sower of temptation is very good. Perhaps a sideboard like this:
2 Disenchant
2 Negate
2 Spellskite
1 Ghostly Prison
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Leyline can sometimes buy you that time, and other times just not do anything. They're playing 4 Destructive Revelry, so it's not always a slam dunk. Some versions still play Bump in the Night as well, and you can get into situations where you resolve Iona at a low life total and die to Bump. In fact, there was one Daily game where I resolved Iona at 3 life, he drew Bump with 3 black sources, and I had triple Remand. There's also the fact that you have to opening hand the Leyline, which is still only about a 40% chance factoring in one mulligan. Sometimes you just don't get there.
Sower could be good, but I'm always hesitant because they tend to keep in removal like Path. Still, I guess if they have only 5 answers for it post board it might not be the worst. I think I'd rather try the Sigarda first and see how it goes because I think it has the better potential. I just don't see them ever beating that card when it resolves unless you're already so far behind that you're dead. It blocks everything except a 5/6 or bigger Goyf, and it kills Liliana when you need it to as well, not to mention they have 0 ways of killing her. Her mana cost also works well with Ugin so you don't have to remove her. I don't know why I never thought about her before, maybe because Abzan wasn't that big of a deal and I could always Iona vs Jund.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer