Would it be possible to add a bit on what to mulligan or keep to the primer? For a deck that often has to mulligan I feel like it's something that should be brought up.
Of course we want at least 2 lands and a bitterblossom that can be cast with said lands, but I feel like it's a bit misleading to people trying to pick up the deck thinking they can do the old extended 6 lands and a bitterblossom. Maybe it's a stretch to say that. But I'm also curious what else would be considered a keepable hand outside of 2 lands and bitterblossom.
I will try and post more screenshots of the games I play on cockatrice.
Rain of tears with surgical was my idea.
I'm currently overhauling my sideboard. My meta is so sporadic that it's hard to be prepared for everything. But I can always count on seeing eldrazi, tron, affinity, and lantern.
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“I am confident that if anyone actually penetrates our facades, even the most perceptive would still be fundamentally unprepared for the truth of House Dimir.”
One other idea I had was sideboarding 1 steam vents and 3 crumble to dust, board out an island for the vents, that leaves 5 fetches that can snag the vents. We can counter a turn 3 threat from tron then win on turn 4. Slow eldrazi down, then punch them in the nuts turn 4. Just been mulling things over
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“I am confident that if anyone actually penetrates our facades, even the most perceptive would still be fundamentally unprepared for the truth of House Dimir.”
But maybe overloaded counter spells with no discard at all. Makes it looks like another Grixis control deck?
Any opinions? Thanks a lot!
Now that's a list I would never play! Great job to the person who 5-0ed but I don't think this is optimal by any means. I might be wrong and the deck might play differently than I expect, but not having more removal as reacting elements atm is kind of suicidal.
4 snares AND 4 Fatal Pushes just overloads the same spot pretty much.
Plus, Grixis Control lists don't play even remotely the same number of counters. A grixis control deck plays 8 counterspells usually (4 cryptic, 2 countersquall, 2 spell snare). That UB list plays 14+4 SSS
Personally I don't think tasigur alone is enough of a payoff to be milling ourselves, but running tasigur does make it easier to consider thought scour as a 1-mana cantrip. I'd be more inclined to start with the list here http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/faeries/, though I would run surgical extraction over ravenous trap in any case.
Personally I don't think tasigur alone is enough of a payoff to be milling ourselves, but running tasigur does make it easier to consider thought scour as a 1-mana cantrip. I'd be more inclined to start with the list here http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/faeries/, though I would run surgical extraction over ravenous trap in any case.
Keep in mind that Thought Scour intrinsically makes Tiago better and is also instant speed. I've been reading up on a lot of Faeries and it seems that people are somewhat dissatisfied with Tiago's selection, Serum Visions being a mediocre card, and Ancestral Visions being too slow. Borrowing the Scour engine from what resembles Grixis Control sounds like an interesting and more aggressive way to take the deck.
Also note, both PV and Dickmann omit discard from the main. This is different from the usual recommendation. Why is this?
I will point out that dickmann's list doesn't actually have very many appealing snapcaster targets.
Snapping back discard is never amazing, but its fine.
However, with all 4 snapcaster mages, only 3 cryptic, 2 leak, 1 snare, 2 cut, and 3 push for interactive spells you could flashback isn't very high.
Snapping back thought scour doesn't really feel all that strong to me.
Cutting discard does mean there is less air for tasigur to give you, but I feel like you need that interaction, or go down to 2-3 snapcasters, in which case you're hurting one of the reasons to be running scour.
If you wanted to play grixis faeries, for kolaghan's command and bolt, then scour becomes better, but at that point you're basically just grixis control with bitterblossoms and sprites.
I've been liking some Anticipate in my list. It works well with Snapcasters and fetches. The mana cost can be a little weird, but i think is very usefull for finding answers. Does anyone test the card before?
Id like to say that faeries is getting a lot of popularity and publicity right now, and while I cant say that this is bad news I don't think the nature of a deck like faeries sustains the hype without people understanding that personalization and comfort with the cards in the deck is of the most importance. I feel like getting in front of the hype somehow is the best thing experienced faeries players could be doing. This is a deck that you HAVE to tweak and test and do research with and put the time in with, moreso than most other decks, and I dont think the hype makes that clear. Its great that we have another good matchup in tier 1 but all the reasons to not play faeries becomes readily apparent when you pick up a list online and jump into games because that list won. These well-placing lists are from players who know their deck and its relationship to the metagame they perceive to be playing in. Its a deck where you have to know your potential outs in any given turn phase of the game, and the many articles I have seen recently dont touch on that at all for suggesting that the deck is worth picking up, which honestly it can be, but only if you want to work with the challenge of pushing it through its faults. The faeries discord has 52 dedicated minds debating A) card choice B) metagame and C) lines of play trying to better their handle on the deck and there isnt one proper go-to list. TLDR the recent metagame hype doesn't explain that there are many ways to build and play faeries to success.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I agree with this, but I also think that none of these articles are aiming to be Faeries primers. They're all simply stating two things: the meta has shifted to become more welcoming for Faeries and that the printing of Fatal Push helps the deck where it was originally hurting the most. Dickmann in particular repeatedly states in his article that he is still testing things, oftentimes overloading in a certain card slot to determine how useful X card is in various scenarios. Then there's players like me, completely wary of playing Faeries, but still seeking the commentary of said 52 minds on recent lists that have popped up. I don't think they're telling everyone to play those lists as much as they are also asking for players to explore an archetype that hasn't made a Modern splash for a bit.
@Cody_X
Playing devil's advocate here. Dickmann is pushing the Thought Scour agenda because he is dissatisfied with Serum Visions and Ancestral Visions (both of which have just as many fans as naysayers). What Thought Scour brings to the table are the exact same things it brings to Grixis Control/Delver lists: an instant speed cantrip that also fuels Tiago/Delve (minus a few synergies). Looking back at lists through the years, there are lists that run Scour as a two-of, so this kind of strategy isn't unheard of. Would trying to go heavier on this front not make any sense for Faeries?
I think it does make some sense, but something I've always said is that a deck has to be unique to be worth playing/discussing/existing.
If your deck does exactly what grixis does except it plays some faerie synergy stuff (not exactly very strong) and gives up a color to do so, you've really just made grixis worse.
If you are focusing on leveraging the power of cards like bitterblossom, mistbind clique, sword of x and y, and combining discard with an aggressive reactive shell, you've got something to stand on, something to defend whether or not you're having results.
While I do agree that both serum and visions are lackluster at times, thought scour doesn't really fix the problem.
Sometimes you have weak hands that you need a vision to fix, but you're also hampered by mana to cast your discard early before its dead.
Maybe you need cards that are simply higher impact or card advantage, or too often you get screwed over by playing one or the other.
But thought scour isn't fixing the mana constriction, or the higher impactfulness, or the card advantage.
Most of the biggest innovation/changes to faeries have come about when the card pool expands. When blossom or AV are unbanned. When copter, brutality, and push are printed. When kalitas or aetherborn are printed. Etc.
It seems obvious, sure, new cards, new opportunities, but the reason why adapting existing synergies/packages into faeries isn't really working is because we're not limited by imagination, or willingness to break the mold, but simply by card pool. The existing card pool (including all of the cards that are fringe/no one plays) is simply not large enough to answer all of the question building this deck asks, on why you'd play faeries and not U/B control, or some grixis or esper variant.
I Think his list is quite interesting. I am one of the few still playing serum visions and I can totally see his point about thought scour being instant speed. If you want to play 3-4 snappy (which I do) and it to be effective, you need those extra spells to flash back if you are not playing discard (which I don't). And it really goes against the gameplan of the deck to snap back serum visions since it is 3 mana at sorcery speed. Tasigur to me is a bonus, not needed, but very good.
I do though at the same disagree with AV being bad. Maybe he hasn't tested it enough or not in the Right builds. I would like to see a list that combines thought scour and AV.
Anyways it is an interesting list I think and Nice with input from some pros..
Id like to say that faeries is getting a lot of popularity and publicity right now, and while I cant say that this is bad news I don't think the nature of a deck like faeries sustains the hype without people understanding that personalization and comfort with the cards in the deck is of the most importance. I feel like getting in front of the hype somehow is the best thing experienced faeries players could be doing. This is a deck that you HAVE to tweak and test and do research with and put the time in with, moreso than most other decks, and I dont think the hype makes that clear. Its great that we have another good matchup in tier 1 but all the reasons to not play faeries becomes readily apparent when you pick up a list online and jump into games because that list won. These well-placing lists are from players who know their deck and its relationship to the metagame they perceive to be playing in. Its a deck where you have to know your potential outs in any given turn phase of the game, and the many articles I have seen recently dont touch on that at all for suggesting that the deck is worth picking up, which honestly it can be, but only if you want to work with the challenge of pushing it through its faults. The faeries discord has 52 dedicated minds debating A) card choice B) metagame and C) lines of play trying to better their handle on the deck and there isnt one proper go-to list. TLDR the recent metagame hype doesn't explain that there are many ways to build and play faeries to success.
Do you think it would be worth to mention the Faeries discord sever and point to it and this thread under the articles written for Faeries?
Also note, both PV and Dickmann omit discard from the main. This is different from the usual recommendation. Why is this?
I'm not sure what their logic is, but as probably the longest-standing player in this thread on the no-discard plan, I've found that spending early turns playing discard spells is very bad against aggressive decks since many of their threats are interchangable so it's hard to meaningfully disrupt them by trading for cards they haven't sunk any man into yet. The fact that aggressive matchups are very hard if you don't really know how you're supposed to fight them coupled with discard generally being bad late made me want to start more removal and counters main, and then have access to some discard in the side against decks where the removal is bad.
The major point for discard is that playing narrow answers can leave us in situations where we can't actually trade our cards for their threats whatsoever, which especially against faster decks, sucks.
I do think discard is better in mistbind builds, a lot of the UB sword control lists don't make as much use out of discard.
a lot of the UB sword control lists don't make as much use out of discard.
As a sword control player, I strongly disagree. DIscard may be less necessary in decks that aren't intending to win with a threat like Mbind mid to early-late game, but I feel the info and planning discard provides is often a crucial part of using your answers and interaction most efficiently. Even homogenous aggro decks with redundant cards, like FaeKeeler mentioned, are stumbling and not dealing optimal damage, taking us to a point where we can turn the corner. I feel it absolutely empowers our bluffs, since our opponent knows we have information of their hand, and will struggle with playing into a counter.
Its not like discard is bad in the sword version, but its less important. The more synergy heavy versions actually rely on discard to function, which is not the case for the sword version.
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I will try and post more screenshots of the games I play on cockatrice.
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678I'm currently overhauling my sideboard. My meta is so sporadic that it's hard to be prepared for everything. But I can always count on seeing eldrazi, tron, affinity, and lantern.
4 snares AND 4 Fatal Pushes just overloads the same spot pretty much.
Plus, Grixis Control lists don't play even remotely the same number of counters. A grixis control deck plays 8 counterspells usually (4 cryptic, 2 countersquall, 2 spell snare). That UB list plays 14+4 SSS
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/patrick-dickmann/the-flashiest-deck-in-modern
Seems interesting. I'm not a Fae player but this list makes me want to consider it. What do the more seasoned players think?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Keep in mind that Thought Scour intrinsically makes Tiago better and is also instant speed. I've been reading up on a lot of Faeries and it seems that people are somewhat dissatisfied with Tiago's selection, Serum Visions being a mediocre card, and Ancestral Visions being too slow. Borrowing the Scour engine from what resembles Grixis Control sounds like an interesting and more aggressive way to take the deck.
Also note, both PV and Dickmann omit discard from the main. This is different from the usual recommendation. Why is this?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Snapping back discard is never amazing, but its fine.
However, with all 4 snapcaster mages, only 3 cryptic, 2 leak, 1 snare, 2 cut, and 3 push for interactive spells you could flashback isn't very high.
Snapping back thought scour doesn't really feel all that strong to me.
Cutting discard does mean there is less air for tasigur to give you, but I feel like you need that interaction, or go down to 2-3 snapcasters, in which case you're hurting one of the reasons to be running scour.
If you wanted to play grixis faeries, for kolaghan's command and bolt, then scour becomes better, but at that point you're basically just grixis control with bitterblossoms and sprites.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
I agree with this, but I also think that none of these articles are aiming to be Faeries primers. They're all simply stating two things: the meta has shifted to become more welcoming for Faeries and that the printing of Fatal Push helps the deck where it was originally hurting the most. Dickmann in particular repeatedly states in his article that he is still testing things, oftentimes overloading in a certain card slot to determine how useful X card is in various scenarios. Then there's players like me, completely wary of playing Faeries, but still seeking the commentary of said 52 minds on recent lists that have popped up. I don't think they're telling everyone to play those lists as much as they are also asking for players to explore an archetype that hasn't made a Modern splash for a bit.
@Cody_X
Playing devil's advocate here. Dickmann is pushing the Thought Scour agenda because he is dissatisfied with Serum Visions and Ancestral Visions (both of which have just as many fans as naysayers). What Thought Scour brings to the table are the exact same things it brings to Grixis Control/Delver lists: an instant speed cantrip that also fuels Tiago/Delve (minus a few synergies). Looking back at lists through the years, there are lists that run Scour as a two-of, so this kind of strategy isn't unheard of. Would trying to go heavier on this front not make any sense for Faeries?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
If your deck does exactly what grixis does except it plays some faerie synergy stuff (not exactly very strong) and gives up a color to do so, you've really just made grixis worse.
If you are focusing on leveraging the power of cards like bitterblossom, mistbind clique, sword of x and y, and combining discard with an aggressive reactive shell, you've got something to stand on, something to defend whether or not you're having results.
While I do agree that both serum and visions are lackluster at times, thought scour doesn't really fix the problem.
Sometimes you have weak hands that you need a vision to fix, but you're also hampered by mana to cast your discard early before its dead.
Maybe you need cards that are simply higher impact or card advantage, or too often you get screwed over by playing one or the other.
But thought scour isn't fixing the mana constriction, or the higher impactfulness, or the card advantage.
Most of the biggest innovation/changes to faeries have come about when the card pool expands. When blossom or AV are unbanned. When copter, brutality, and push are printed. When kalitas or aetherborn are printed. Etc.
It seems obvious, sure, new cards, new opportunities, but the reason why adapting existing synergies/packages into faeries isn't really working is because we're not limited by imagination, or willingness to break the mold, but simply by card pool. The existing card pool (including all of the cards that are fringe/no one plays) is simply not large enough to answer all of the question building this deck asks, on why you'd play faeries and not U/B control, or some grixis or esper variant.
I Think his list is quite interesting. I am one of the few still playing serum visions and I can totally see his point about thought scour being instant speed. If you want to play 3-4 snappy (which I do) and it to be effective, you need those extra spells to flash back if you are not playing discard (which I don't). And it really goes against the gameplan of the deck to snap back serum visions since it is 3 mana at sorcery speed. Tasigur to me is a bonus, not needed, but very good.
I do though at the same disagree with AV being bad. Maybe he hasn't tested it enough or not in the Right builds. I would like to see a list that combines thought scour and AV.
Anyways it is an interesting list I think and Nice with input from some pros..
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I'm not sure what their logic is, but as probably the longest-standing player in this thread on the no-discard plan, I've found that spending early turns playing discard spells is very bad against aggressive decks since many of their threats are interchangable so it's hard to meaningfully disrupt them by trading for cards they haven't sunk any man into yet. The fact that aggressive matchups are very hard if you don't really know how you're supposed to fight them coupled with discard generally being bad late made me want to start more removal and counters main, and then have access to some discard in the side against decks where the removal is bad.
I do think discard is better in mistbind builds, a lot of the UB sword control lists don't make as much use out of discard.
As a sword control player, I strongly disagree. DIscard may be less necessary in decks that aren't intending to win with a threat like Mbind mid to early-late game, but I feel the info and planning discard provides is often a crucial part of using your answers and interaction most efficiently. Even homogenous aggro decks with redundant cards, like FaeKeeler mentioned, are stumbling and not dealing optimal damage, taking us to a point where we can turn the corner. I feel it absolutely empowers our bluffs, since our opponent knows we have information of their hand, and will struggle with playing into a counter.