Yeah that's the one weakness that worries me. Will it survive long enough to do 7+ damage? If the answer is yes, I'm happy. I can probably deal another 13 points between burn and tokens. Discard helps here but it's not foolproof and it won't always show up in your hand. If it doesn't survive, it leaves no impact on the board though. I'll see how it works out.
Funny that you mention Rabblemaster, that's the only other card (besides Blood Moon) I've been trying to decide whether to include or not. I previously played it in a Jund Moon deck and like you said it's a very quick clock on an empty board. Plus it's a bit of a pet card for me. The higher cost gives me pause though because 3 CMC is a jump for such a lean deck. I'd definitely love to hear how that pair work for you with an extra land.
You're exactly right, and dealing 7+ damage with Kiln Fiend is pretty awesome sounding. Rabblemaster has been awesome, the extra threats outside of relying on Lingering Souls tokens and Swiftspear has been awesome, which is why I added another Rabblemaster over the fourth Lingering souls. I'll be testing with a friend tonight, I'll try and let you know how it goes.
Also, not very reliable, but there is a video posted on CFB by Caleb Durward playing Esper Gifts. In his first round, he plays against, you betcha, Selfeisek and his Mardu Reveler list. Not very reliable, but it could help see how they go about playing the deck and what his decisions he makes piloting the deck. I haven't watched it all, but it could be something to learn off of, even if we don't know his/her thought process exactly.
On a more generalized side note, I love that printing a super efficient 1 drop removal has single handedly made 3 drop, 3 (or less) toughness creatures playable. Yay irony.
On a more generalized side note, I love that printing a super efficient 1 drop removal has single handedly made 3 drop, 3 (or less) toughness creatures playable. Yay irony.
Preach! The move from Bolt being the premier removal to Push really makes a difference and makes other creatures viable. Rabblemaster was always one of my favorites (I started playing Magic when Dragons was recently released), so it's really awesome that the card has gained more viability. I'm loving playing with him, and have thought about getting into Jund playing Rabblemaster, but shelling out $650-$700 for 12 cards is a lot out of my price range....
I wonder if one or two Apostle's Blessing to protect young peezy and reveler would be worth it.
I actually considered it in a flex slot, but what do you take out for that exactly? I run two Collective Brutality, so I was thinking running a Blessing in place of a Brutality. If you run it, let us know how it works! I'll try and test it out soon.
I wonder if one or two Apostle's Blessing to protect young peezy and reveler would be worth it.
Midrange strategies don't really have room for protection spells that don't also do something else. (Valorous Stance for example) It makes a lot more sense in combo decks, however, where you're trying to go off and kill them in one turn (Infect, Bloo,Battle Rage Death's Shadow etc)
I wonder if one or two Apostle's Blessing to protect young peezy and reveler would be worth it.
Midrange strategies don't really have room for protection spells that don't also do something else. (Valorous Stance for example) It makes a lot more sense in combo decks, however, where you're trying to go off and kill them in one turn (Infect, Bloo,Battle Rage Death's Shadow etc)
That's true, I didn't think about that. The slot is better used elsewhere. On another note, watched the match I mentioned in an earlier post where Selfeisek is playing against Caleb Durward, and Caleb kind of got pummeled. Deck is SOOOOO sweet. I think this might be my favorite deck of all time.
Coming from a kiln fiend fan, try out claim // fame with them, as kiln fiend will always eat a push/bolt/terminate. Being able to recure them and then immediately punch for 6 will not only steal games, but also force your opponent to leave mana open and play sub par, a bit like twin used to. I tried it in a mardu shadow shell, it's a beast.
Missed your comment from earlier. That's an intriguing suggestion since I'm playing 8 targets at the moment (4 Fiends, 4 Pyro) and it could be synergistic to toss to Faithless Looting or Reveler. Something for me to ponder.
That's true, I didn't think about that. The slot is better used elsewhere. On another note, watched the match I mentioned in an earlier post where Selfeisek is playing against Caleb Durward, and Caleb kind of got pummeled. Deck is SOOOOO sweet. I think this might be my favorite deck of all time.
Your list seems pretty close to the original (that's performing so well for Selfeisek). Dismember is the only inclusion I'd question. Are there situations where you want it instead of another Terminate? I wouldn't think you'd need it early for 1 mana + 4 life given Bolts and such; late you'll probably have the mana but maybe not the life. Shrine is an interesting suggestion for more inevitability.
------------
On a different note, ignore my previous comments about Burn being an even match-up. I was horribly wrong. Even with Collective Brutality and Lightning Helix, I've struggled to clock them. Pyromancer and Kiln Fiend die too easily and Souls are too slow. Going burn to the face makes us a slower version of their deck. I now see why the original list plays Dragon's Claw; three have joined my sideboard and I've added a MB Plains to fetch to make the manabase less painful.
I'm wavering on my inclusion of Kiln Fiend. He's been great against decks with little removal. He won a match for me versus Living End where triple bolt meant a kill from 16 life. But outside of "combo" decks like that, I think he's a subtle win-more card. In most matches where I'm playing him, would I still have won if he was something else or I had to wait for Pyromancer/Reveler/Command? I'm leaning towards the answer being yes.
Your list seems pretty close to the original (that's performing so well for Selfeisek). Dismember is the only inclusion I'd question. Are there situations where you want it instead of another Terminate? I wouldn't think you'd need it early for 1 mana + 4 life given Bolts and such; late you'll probably have the mana but maybe not the life. Shrine is an interesting suggestion for more inevitability.
------------
On a different note, ignore my previous comments about Burn being an even match-up. I was horribly wrong. Even with Collective Brutality and Lightning Helix, I've struggled to clock them. Pyromancer and Kiln Fiend die too easily and Souls are too slow. Going burn to the face makes us a slower version of their deck. I now see why the original list plays Dragon's Claw; three have joined my sideboard and I've added a MB Plains to fetch to make the manabase less painful.
I'm wavering on my inclusion of Kiln Fiend. He's been great against decks with little removal. He won a match for me versus Living End where triple bolt meant a kill from 16 life. But outside of "combo" decks like that, I think he's a subtle win-more card. In most matches where I'm playing him, would I still have won if he was something else or I had to wait for Pyromancer/Reveler/Command? I'm leaning towards the answer being yes.
I think most of those are decent inclusions. Soulfire Grand Master would be difficult to turn on for it's ability, but the life gain on all of our spells is amazing against Burn. I honestly haven't considered that but I might do just that now since we have a painful manabase as it is.
I don't think Bob is where we want to be; we already draw plenty of stuff with Reveler, and taking 8 off him could easily be lethal.
I'd rather see Claim//Fame in the deck, that's my next idea. I'd love to hit Pyro off it - and Swiftspears have been underperforming for me, so I'm thinking of running Abbot of Keral Keep instead. Decent pitch to GY, and gives us some finishing power. Many times I'd have liked to cast Reveler for 2, pitch a Claim//Fame and etc, and cast it, swing for 6.
I'm wondering how dark confidant would feel in this deck. Anyone tried him out?
Hitting a Bedlam Reveler off a Dark Confidant draw is the stuff of nightmares. Now if you want to drop the Revelers, you could do that but that's a very different direction than the most recent decklists posted.
I think most of those are decent inclusions. Soulfire Grand Master would be difficult to turn on for it's ability, but the life gain on all of our spells is amazing against Burn. I honestly haven't considered that but I might do just that now since we have a painful manabase as it is.
Ultimately I decided on Seeker of the Way and ran it through a couple of leagues. To be honest, it was a lot of fun -- combat tricks & bluffing prowess buffs, crazy life gain swings with Helix, etc. Very enjoyable matches but a doubt tickled the back of my mind and slowly solidified. I've been trying to push Selfeisek's list to be more aggro; I think that's a mistake. At it's heart, this feels more like a Jund (or Abzan) attrition/value deck with the reach of burn.
Another false dawn from yours truly? Perhaps. But I think I've finally settled on a list. I'll try to post it later today when I'm on my PC. The quick version is only 10 creatures -- 4x Pyromancer, 4x Reveler, 2x Rabblemaster -- plus 3 Blood Moon.
I'd rather see Claim//Fame in the deck, that's my next idea. I'd love to hit Pyro off it - and Swiftspears have been underperforming for me, so I'm thinking of running Abbot of Keral Keep instead. Decent pitch to GY, and gives us some finishing power. Many times I'd have liked to cast Reveler for 2, pitch a Claim//Fame and etc, and cast it, swing for 6.
Claim//Fame offers some cool lines of play like you mentioned. When I ran a couple copies, my struggle was using the front half of it when drawn. Depending on your build, you'll only have the 4 Pyromancer for targets and you're dependent on them dying (versus eating a Path). There were times when I needed to cast it to enable Reveler but couldn't. You can pitch it to Faithless Looting but that's another dependency. Maybe you'll have more luck though.
Ultimately I decided on Seeker of the Way and ran it through a couple of leagues. To be honest, it was a lot of fun -- combat tricks & bluffing prowess buffs, crazy life gain swings with Helix, etc. Very enjoyable matches but a doubt tickled the back of my mind and slowly solidified. I've been trying to push Selfeisek's list to be more aggro; I think that's a mistake. At it's heart, this feels more like a Jund (or Abzan) attrition/value deck with the reach of burn.
Another false dawn from yours truly? Perhaps. But I think I've finally settled on a list. I'll try to post it later today when I'm on my PC. The quick version is only 10 creatures -- 4x Pyromancer, 4x Reveler, 2x Rabblemaster -- plus 3 Blood Moon.
That sounds awesome, love to see a list! I agree with your assessment on how this deck operates. I jokingly call it "White Jund" because it operates similarly to Jund. I have been running two Rabblemaster and I'm thinking about adding back the 4th Lingering Souls over one and then dropping a land to go back to 19 lands for a K-Command, but I'm not too sure at this point. I still gotta test a lot and see what I like and what feels best. Swiftspear have been awesome for me - especially early in the game where you can double bolt turn two or hand disruption and bolt or some other combination of two 1CMC spells. I love Swiftspear in this deck, it's interesting how we have differing opinions on it. The deck is just too much fun!
My struggle with Monastery Swiftspear is that it doesn't close games. It was valuable chip damage when I played it, but wasn't able to take over the games where Pyromancer is killed. I'm looking for a win con to deal that 7+ points of damage without too much investment. Is Swiftspear filling that role for you?
I'm still tweaking the sideboard to hedge bad match-ups. I just swapped a 3rd Collective Brutality for a 2nd Wear/Tear as another catch-all for Bogles, Lantern, and the like. The Rabblemaster should probably be something else to help with Dredge or Tron variants; not sure what yet.
My struggle with Monastery Swiftspear is that it doesn't close games. It was valuable chip damage when I played it, but wasn't able to take over the games where Pyromancer is killed. I'm looking for a win con to deal that 7+ points of damage without too much investment. Is Swiftspear filling that role for you?
I'm still tweaking the sideboard to hedge bad match-ups. I just swapped a 3rd Collective Brutality for a 2nd Wear/Tear as another catch-all for Bogles, Lantern, and the like. The Rabblemaster should probably be something else to help with Dredge or Tron variants; not sure what yet.
Deck looks sweet! Close to what I'm playing. Swiftspear has been good for me because I like trading creatures early with bolts and our removal and getting in damage with it. Plus in the late game a hastey threat that only costs 1 CMC when we could have an army of Elementals thanks to PZ or untap with a Bedlam Reveler in play and then play a Swiftspear followed by a couple spells is just so good to me.
I've been thinking: what about Hazoret instead of something else? Or is four Mana too much to ask for?
What's the "stock" mardu reveler deck? is it Selfeisek's 75 or have there been some new innovations? I'm looking for a good place to start. Here's his list for reference https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/801137#paper
What's the "stock" mardu reveler deck? is it Selfeisek's 75 or have there been some new innovations? I'm looking for a good place to start. Here's his list for reference https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/801137#paper
That is the current "stock" list, yes.
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You're exactly right, and dealing 7+ damage with Kiln Fiend is pretty awesome sounding. Rabblemaster has been awesome, the extra threats outside of relying on Lingering Souls tokens and Swiftspear has been awesome, which is why I added another Rabblemaster over the fourth Lingering souls. I'll be testing with a friend tonight, I'll try and let you know how it goes.
Also, not very reliable, but there is a video posted on CFB by Caleb Durward playing Esper Gifts. In his first round, he plays against, you betcha, Selfeisek and his Mardu Reveler list. Not very reliable, but it could help see how they go about playing the deck and what his decisions he makes piloting the deck. I haven't watched it all, but it could be something to learn off of, even if we don't know his/her thought process exactly.
Preach! The move from Bolt being the premier removal to Push really makes a difference and makes other creatures viable. Rabblemaster was always one of my favorites (I started playing Magic when Dragons was recently released), so it's really awesome that the card has gained more viability. I'm loving playing with him, and have thought about getting into Jund playing Rabblemaster, but shelling out $650-$700 for 12 cards is a lot out of my price range....
I actually considered it in a flex slot, but what do you take out for that exactly? I run two Collective Brutality, so I was thinking running a Blessing in place of a Brutality. If you run it, let us know how it works! I'll try and test it out soon.
Midrange strategies don't really have room for protection spells that don't also do something else. (Valorous Stance for example) It makes a lot more sense in combo decks, however, where you're trying to go off and kill them in one turn (Infect, Bloo,Battle Rage Death's Shadow etc)
That's true, I didn't think about that. The slot is better used elsewhere. On another note, watched the match I mentioned in an earlier post where Selfeisek is playing against Caleb Durward, and Caleb kind of got pummeled. Deck is SOOOOO sweet. I think this might be my favorite deck of all time.
Missed your comment from earlier. That's an intriguing suggestion since I'm playing 8 targets at the moment (4 Fiends, 4 Pyro) and it could be synergistic to toss to Faithless Looting or Reveler. Something for me to ponder.
Thanks for sharing. I'm giving it a watch now.
Definitely looks fun, but Nahiri just seems so... slow. Almost worth trying just for the name alone though!
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Mountain
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
3 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Lingering Souls
2 Lightning Helix
2 Terminate
3 Thoughtseize
1 Burst Lightning
1 Dreadbore
4 Faithless Looting
1 Forked Bolt
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Fatal Push
2 Dragon's Claw
3 Blood Moon
Modern Only
Currently Running:
BG Midrange
Modern Only
Currently Running:
BG Midrange
Your list seems pretty close to the original (that's performing so well for Selfeisek). Dismember is the only inclusion I'd question. Are there situations where you want it instead of another Terminate? I wouldn't think you'd need it early for 1 mana + 4 life given Bolts and such; late you'll probably have the mana but maybe not the life. Shrine is an interesting suggestion for more inevitability.
------------
On a different note, ignore my previous comments about Burn being an even match-up. I was horribly wrong. Even with Collective Brutality and Lightning Helix, I've struggled to clock them. Pyromancer and Kiln Fiend die too easily and Souls are too slow. Going burn to the face makes us a slower version of their deck. I now see why the original list plays Dragon's Claw; three have joined my sideboard and I've added a MB Plains to fetch to make the manabase less painful.
I'm wavering on my inclusion of Kiln Fiend. He's been great against decks with little removal. He won a match for me versus Living End where triple bolt meant a kill from 16 life. But outside of "combo" decks like that, I think he's a subtle win-more card. In most matches where I'm playing him, would I still have won if he was something else or I had to wait for Pyromancer/Reveler/Command? I'm leaning towards the answer being yes.
So the question is what do I try in that slot instead (if I don't go back to Swiftspear). Monastery Mentor, Seeker of the Way, Rift Bolt, Vexing Devil, Soulfire Grand Master, Bloodghast, Shrine of Burning Rage... I'm not sure the answer yet. I've struggled the most so far with Burn and UR decks with either Through the Breach or Batterskull.
I'm wondering how dark confidant would feel in this deck. Anyone tried him out?
I think most of those are decent inclusions. Soulfire Grand Master would be difficult to turn on for it's ability, but the life gain on all of our spells is amazing against Burn. I honestly haven't considered that but I might do just that now since we have a painful manabase as it is.
I'd rather see Claim//Fame in the deck, that's my next idea. I'd love to hit Pyro off it - and Swiftspears have been underperforming for me, so I'm thinking of running Abbot of Keral Keep instead. Decent pitch to GY, and gives us some finishing power. Many times I'd have liked to cast Reveler for 2, pitch a Claim//Fame and etc, and cast it, swing for 6.
Hitting a Bedlam Reveler off a Dark Confidant draw is the stuff of nightmares. Now if you want to drop the Revelers, you could do that but that's a very different direction than the most recent decklists posted.
Ultimately I decided on Seeker of the Way and ran it through a couple of leagues. To be honest, it was a lot of fun -- combat tricks & bluffing prowess buffs, crazy life gain swings with Helix, etc. Very enjoyable matches but a doubt tickled the back of my mind and slowly solidified. I've been trying to push Selfeisek's list to be more aggro; I think that's a mistake. At it's heart, this feels more like a Jund (or Abzan) attrition/value deck with the reach of burn.
Another false dawn from yours truly? Perhaps. But I think I've finally settled on a list. I'll try to post it later today when I'm on my PC. The quick version is only 10 creatures -- 4x Pyromancer, 4x Reveler, 2x Rabblemaster -- plus 3 Blood Moon.
Claim//Fame offers some cool lines of play like you mentioned. When I ran a couple copies, my struggle was using the front half of it when drawn. Depending on your build, you'll only have the 4 Pyromancer for targets and you're dependent on them dying (versus eating a Path). There were times when I needed to cast it to enable Reveler but couldn't. You can pitch it to Faithless Looting but that's another dependency. Maybe you'll have more luck though.
That sounds awesome, love to see a list! I agree with your assessment on how this deck operates. I jokingly call it "White Jund" because it operates similarly to Jund. I have been running two Rabblemaster and I'm thinking about adding back the 4th Lingering Souls over one and then dropping a land to go back to 19 lands for a K-Command, but I'm not too sure at this point. I still gotta test a lot and see what I like and what feels best. Swiftspear have been awesome for me - especially early in the game where you can double bolt turn two or hand disruption and bolt or some other combination of two 1CMC spells. I love Swiftspear in this deck, it's interesting how we have differing opinions on it. The deck is just too much fun!
Here's what I'm currently playing:
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Mountain
4 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Blood Moon
1 Dreadbore
3 Faithless Looting
2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lingering Souls
2 Lightning Helix
3 Thoughtseize
2 Terminate
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Dreadbore
1 Fatal Push
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Shattering Spree
2 Dragon's Claw
2 Wear/Tear
2 Collective Brutality
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
My struggle with Monastery Swiftspear is that it doesn't close games. It was valuable chip damage when I played it, but wasn't able to take over the games where Pyromancer is killed. I'm looking for a win con to deal that 7+ points of damage without too much investment. Is Swiftspear filling that role for you?
I'm still tweaking the sideboard to hedge bad match-ups. I just swapped a 3rd Collective Brutality for a 2nd Wear/Tear as another catch-all for Bogles, Lantern, and the like. The Rabblemaster should probably be something else to help with Dredge or Tron variants; not sure what yet.
Deck looks sweet! Close to what I'm playing. Swiftspear has been good for me because I like trading creatures early with bolts and our removal and getting in damage with it. Plus in the late game a hastey threat that only costs 1 CMC when we could have an army of Elementals thanks to PZ or untap with a Bedlam Reveler in play and then play a Swiftspear followed by a couple spells is just so good to me.
I've been thinking: what about Hazoret instead of something else? Or is four Mana too much to ask for?
Hazoret seems like a good addition, but it would probably need an extra land to reach 4 consistently.
That is the current "stock" list, yes.