Another 2/2. That's enough 2/2's in my local meta to convince me something is up. Eidolon is hurting me more at the new store than it did at the old one, It realies on the card velocity of the opponent, but that's slowing down. That said, the Bushwhacker/DS/Souls plan has been fantastic and I want more of that. So I'm thinking:
-4 Eidolon (to SB for combo)
-1 Orzhov Charm
+ 4 Gather the Townsfolk
+1 Mardu Charm
Gather seems intersting, it's mediocre as a T2 play (but still curves into a T3 Bushwhacker), but with our ability to control our life, fateful hour starts looking pretty nice, and easy to cast paired with a Bushwhacker on T4-6
What combo/ control decks are you having trouble with?
Played a couple against UW control and lost a set against Ad Nauseam.
From my experience, hide // seek is one of the best cards you can bring in against them- hide deals with stuff like leyline and unlife, while seek is great for stripping out the win con from their deck ( lightning storm / lab man ) Discard in general is very good, and if you can surgical extraction / slaughter games their angel's grace or ad nauseam you pretty much win on the spot. After sideboard, stony silence and fulminator mage is a good start to slow them down.
I haven't played any UW control recently so I'm not entirely sure how the deck operates these days, but I can say the more discard + lOTV you have the better.
I quit playing Mardu after playing against Lantern control a few times. Mardu straight up folds to that deck. What this deck is missing is a 2cmc catch all card like Abrupt Decay that you can main deck. Anguished costs too much.
Mardu doesn't need a catch all like abrubt decay. It has hand disruption which is enough to take out most of the stuff your other spells wouldn't be able to deal with.
Also, Mardu has the best sideboard colors in the format. You can board Stony Silence, which is helpful vs Tron, Ad Naseum, and makes affinity unlosable, and also happens to beat lantern. Hide // Seek is also an incredibly useful SB card against lantern and Ad nauseum.
The lantern matchup, in my experience, usually for them is ensnaring bridge or bust. Inquisition their bridge and surgical it. Board a slaughter games and name bridge. Mardu can do whatever you want it to, as long as you have a decent sideboard. So many cards that beat all of your bad matchups beat lantern.
Other colors have weaknesess. Mardu can be handcrafted to destroy anything you want it to.(Except tron. I hate tron to death) And that is why I play mardu, and why I will probably always play mardu.
How do you guys manage to beat storm and lantern control? I can never manage to beat those decks with few creatures.
These are the kinds of decks you should focus your SB on. If you don't already have the full 4/4 of thoughtseize/inquisition, filling it in in your SB can help against basically every creature light deck. I would also suggest Lost Legacy, as it is useful against all combo decks(and even dredge if it comes up). Stony silence is something I would never leave home without, as it is useful in a number of different matchups. Slaughter games can also destroy lantern if you manage to destroy/thoughtseize a bride, and usually a manland or a lingering souls is enough to finish the game.
Mardu Charm isn't worth it, I'd argue that even Start // Finish is a better card (as blockers + removal).
Waht makes Collective Brutality good (and Kolaghan's Command) is that you get to choose multiple modes which you can't do with Mardu Charm whose every mode is very weak individually (especially for 3-mana).
Start/ Finish is nowhere near as good as Mardu Charm.
You can choose multiple modes from Brutality but you're basically picking between 2 options because the life drain is not worth the effect against any deck but Burn. I have played with the card enough to judge it objectively. In essence, it's not good enough to be in the main deck unless your deck really struggles with Burn or small creature decks and could use a little more hand disruption. Its removal probably misses half the creature decks in Modern and its bad duress effect is overrated because it cannot hit planeswalkers, enchantments, or artifacts.
Your 3-mana removal spell isn't an appropriate comparison either. Mardu Charm is not just a removal spell, which is why it's overcosted for each individual effect. Instant speed discard is insanely powerful, which is why you don't see much of this design in general. When the objective of your deck is to just disrupt, Mardu Charm does everything. Kolaghan's Command is only more powerful if your deck is built around powerful cheap creatures that need to be recurred (snapcaster, tarmogoyf, etc.) but its other effects are not nearly as powerful.
Waht makes Collective Brutality good (and Kolaghan's Command) is that you get to choose multiple modes which you can't do with Mardu Charm whose every mode is very weak individually (especially for 3-mana).
Start/ Finish is nowhere near as good as Mardu Charm.
You can choose multiple modes from Brutality but you're basically picking between 2 options because the life drain is not worth the effect against any deck but Burn. I have played with the card enough to judge it objectively. In essence, it's not good enough to be in the main deck unless your deck really struggles with Burn or small creature decks and could use a little more hand disruption. Its removal probably misses half the creature decks in Modern and its bad duress effect is overrated because it cannot hit planeswalkers, enchantments, or artifacts.
Your 3-mana removal spell isn't an appropriate comparison either. Mardu Charm is not just a removal spell, which is why it's overcosted for each individual effect. Instant speed discard is insanely powerful, which is why you don't see much of this design in general. When the objective of your deck is to just disrupt, Mardu Charm does everything. Kolaghan's Command is only more powerful if your deck is built around powerful cheap creatures that need to be recurred (snapcaster, tarmogoyf, etc.) but its other effects are not nearly as powerful. [/quote]
Couldn't agree more on the collective brutality, I love it vs burn, and hate it everywhere else.
However, mardu charm just seems bad when compared to k commands. K command is just good in every matchup. I would just rather play another thoughtseizze before a 3 mana duress...it is flexible, but nowhere near as flexible as kolaghan's command. In the late game, when you are both top decking, (which should happen quite a lot) I would rather draw a kolaghan's command every time.
But yeah, mardu charm is still better than Start / Finish.
And has anyone considered collective effort? It seems like it could work in a more token themed deck.
@Saige what are your good and bad matchups with that build? i wanna try it. What do you board against them? I'm still bad with sideboarding choices (what to board out
How do you guys fight against the Collected Company Vizier combo deck? I'm getting ready for GP Vegas and this seams to be the most relevant bad matchup that I've found.
Been brainstorming ideas with someone else locally who is also on the Bushwhacker plan. We've come up with two more possible 2 drop candidates, as well as a 3 drop to help out with topdecking.
Basically we have two routes, tokens vs discard. If you go the tokens route, Gather the Townsfolk might be good. It plays well with Bushwhacker, and the enabling of Death's Shadow also enables Fateful Hour giving you a good deal of control over getting 5 guys. It's ok early, though not really great, but late game it becomes much more powerful. Even a turn 4-5 gather for 5 guys plus a Bushwhacker is pretty nice. The discard route we came up with is Tidehollow Sculler, going T1 IoK/TS, T2 Sculler, into T3 Kolaghan's/Mardu Charm. Sculler has some nice interactions with Kolaghan's as well since you can end step force a discard, return a Sculler, untap, and Sculler their remaining card.
The three drop we were talking about is Hammer of Purphoros it grants the same hasted advantage with big guys like Angler/DS that Bushwhackers do, curves into them well, and the ability to sacrifice lands for 3/3's helps the topdeck situation immensely.
Our next Modern event is in two weeks (the local pattern is 2 Modern, 1 Draft... next week is Draft week), and I think the plan right now is I'm going to try the Gather route, with the other person trying the Sculler route and us both playing a Hammer or two.
Right now, this is the list I'm planning on playing.
You guys should try hanweir battlements.
Slayer is pretty good but hanweir allows us to hit faster. We can hit as early as possible with death's shadow. That's outperform Slayers in the end.
Also, I tested Temur battle rage.
It's definitly a must. I am considering 2 of.
I played against Boogles 3 times and both us avoided side in any cards. Temur gave me one game and almost changed the board stated in my favor.
Give it a try...or two.
If you are playing tokens, Intangible Virtue is just better than all these goblins anyway.
I really don't see the point of the Bushwhackers in a DS list.
If you are playing tokens, Intangible Virtue is just better than all these goblins anyway.
I really don't see the point of the Bushwhackers in a DS list.
Not necessarily, Intangible Virtue doesn't give you the threat of hasted Anglers/Shadows.
@Saige what are your good and bad matchups with that build? i wanna try it. What do you board against them? I'm still bad with sideboarding choices (what to board out
I had a long reply typed up as a response but hit back on accident, whoops. Basically the deck functions like an Abzan/Jund midrange deck so a lot of the same sideboarding rules and good/bad matchups apply. Tron game one is awful but you get to bring in a lot and more importantly take out a lot of awful cards. Collected Company decks are good matchups as hand disruption for noncreature spells and kill spells for creatures is exactly what you are built to do and what ends up happening a lot of the times I play the deck. I have a sideboarding guide on the tappedout page that's up to date (minus one or two changes) and it has been good for me so far. In general the sideboard plan boils down to what cards are awful against what you're playing (ex. Liliana vs Lingering Souls decks) and what cards can be upgraded (ex. Damnation/Crackling Doom over Bolt against Eldrazi).
If you do give it a try, I'd love to hear how it goes for you. Also where I play streams our weeklies so if I end up getting on stream with the deck I can provide a link to the gameplay.
Allright so this is a combo/control take on Mardu I've put together.
Two main plans to win the game here: Resto-Kiki and Nahiri-Emrakul. The thing is I've noticed the creatures that enable the Resto-Kiki plan are pretty good at protecting Nahiri (Wall of Omens, Kitchen Finks). This is a very anti-aggro version 'cause the current meta is super aggro. In a combo/control meta we could easily run as mainy copies of Thoughtseize as we want maindeck.
I was considering a build like yours but with two changes:
1) Using only 1 Kiki-Jikki, 3 Restoration Angels + token cards.
2) Adding 1-2 Indomitable Creativity. Sometimes I fell that creativity to 1 or 2 can find a Kiki or Emrakul earlier.
If you really want to combo with kiki-jikki...why 3 not 4?
If you're playing with nahiri + emrakul you're on the mid range route. You will have a hard time to combo on turn 5 using a 2RRR and a 3W cards. Probably you will be able to do so safely, without opponent interaction, on t7.
To me, your mana base is stressed, your curve is high and have a lot of candidates on turn 5 and 6. To get the enemy out of guard...one often play resto angel with flash.
Best Case scenario: resto on t4, hoping the opponent does nothing, untap to t5... Cast Kiki and Hope for no interaction. If It fails, you trying again on t7...?
While trying...you're not getting any value.
So... imho you should aim for more value to advance on your boardstate thus controlling the game and safely combo.
Excited to give the resto/kiki package a go in my nahiri build. I like that it takes the pressure off that plan and forces the opponent to react on two levels instead of just one.
Went 3-1 last night. Lost to Ad Nauseum (0-2) round 1 due to having never played against the deck before and naming the wrong card with Slaughter Games. Won the following rounds against Mardu Control (2-0), Abzan Delirium (2-0), and Living End (2-1).
Once again Squadron Hawk put in work and win me several games. Nether Traitor was a letdown, his impact just wasn't enough to justify keeping the set in the deck so they're being cut for something else.
-4 Eidolon (to SB for combo)
-1 Orzhov Charm
+ 4 Gather the Townsfolk
+1 Mardu Charm
Gather seems intersting, it's mediocre as a T2 play (but still curves into a T3 Bushwhacker), but with our ability to control our life, fateful hour starts looking pretty nice, and easy to cast paired with a Bushwhacker on T4-6
From my experience, hide // seek is one of the best cards you can bring in against them- hide deals with stuff like leyline and unlife, while seek is great for stripping out the win con from their deck ( lightning storm / lab man ) Discard in general is very good, and if you can surgical extraction / slaughter games their angel's grace or ad nauseam you pretty much win on the spot. After sideboard, stony silence and fulminator mage is a good start to slow them down.
I haven't played any UW control recently so I'm not entirely sure how the deck operates these days, but I can say the more discard + lOTV you have the better.
Mardu doesn't need a catch all like abrubt decay. It has hand disruption which is enough to take out most of the stuff your other spells wouldn't be able to deal with.
Also, Mardu has the best sideboard colors in the format. You can board Stony Silence, which is helpful vs Tron, Ad Naseum, and makes affinity unlosable, and also happens to beat lantern. Hide // Seek is also an incredibly useful SB card against lantern and Ad nauseum.
The lantern matchup, in my experience, usually for them is ensnaring bridge or bust. Inquisition their bridge and surgical it. Board a slaughter games and name bridge. Mardu can do whatever you want it to, as long as you have a decent sideboard. So many cards that beat all of your bad matchups beat lantern.
Other colors have weaknesess. Mardu can be handcrafted to destroy anything you want it to.(Except tron. I hate tron to death) And that is why I play mardu, and why I will probably always play mardu.
These are the kinds of decks you should focus your SB on. If you don't already have the full 4/4 of thoughtseize/inquisition, filling it in in your SB can help against basically every creature light deck. I would also suggest Lost Legacy, as it is useful against all combo decks(and even dredge if it comes up). Stony silence is something I would never leave home without, as it is useful in a number of different matchups. Slaughter games can also destroy lantern if you manage to destroy/thoughtseize a bride, and usually a manland or a lingering souls is enough to finish the game.
Start/ Finish is nowhere near as good as Mardu Charm.
You can choose multiple modes from Brutality but you're basically picking between 2 options because the life drain is not worth the effect against any deck but Burn. I have played with the card enough to judge it objectively. In essence, it's not good enough to be in the main deck unless your deck really struggles with Burn or small creature decks and could use a little more hand disruption. Its removal probably misses half the creature decks in Modern and its bad duress effect is overrated because it cannot hit planeswalkers, enchantments, or artifacts.
Your 3-mana removal spell isn't an appropriate comparison either. Mardu Charm is not just a removal spell, which is why it's overcosted for each individual effect. Instant speed discard is insanely powerful, which is why you don't see much of this design in general. When the objective of your deck is to just disrupt, Mardu Charm does everything. Kolaghan's Command is only more powerful if your deck is built around powerful cheap creatures that need to be recurred (snapcaster, tarmogoyf, etc.) but its other effects are not nearly as powerful.
If I pay 3-mana for a removal spell I expect something on the level of Anguished Unmaking (or Maelstrom Pulse).[/quote]
Start/ Finish is nowhere near as good as Mardu Charm.
You can choose multiple modes from Brutality but you're basically picking between 2 options because the life drain is not worth the effect against any deck but Burn. I have played with the card enough to judge it objectively. In essence, it's not good enough to be in the main deck unless your deck really struggles with Burn or small creature decks and could use a little more hand disruption. Its removal probably misses half the creature decks in Modern and its bad duress effect is overrated because it cannot hit planeswalkers, enchantments, or artifacts.
Your 3-mana removal spell isn't an appropriate comparison either. Mardu Charm is not just a removal spell, which is why it's overcosted for each individual effect. Instant speed discard is insanely powerful, which is why you don't see much of this design in general. When the objective of your deck is to just disrupt, Mardu Charm does everything. Kolaghan's Command is only more powerful if your deck is built around powerful cheap creatures that need to be recurred (snapcaster, tarmogoyf, etc.) but its other effects are not nearly as powerful. [/quote]
Couldn't agree more on the collective brutality, I love it vs burn, and hate it everywhere else.
However, mardu charm just seems bad when compared to k commands. K command is just good in every matchup. I would just rather play another thoughtseizze before a 3 mana duress...it is flexible, but nowhere near as flexible as kolaghan's command. In the late game, when you are both top decking, (which should happen quite a lot) I would rather draw a kolaghan's command every time.
But yeah, mardu charm is still better than Start / Finish.
And has anyone considered collective effort? It seems like it could work in a more token themed deck.
Basically we have two routes, tokens vs discard. If you go the tokens route, Gather the Townsfolk might be good. It plays well with Bushwhacker, and the enabling of Death's Shadow also enables Fateful Hour giving you a good deal of control over getting 5 guys. It's ok early, though not really great, but late game it becomes much more powerful. Even a turn 4-5 gather for 5 guys plus a Bushwhacker is pretty nice. The discard route we came up with is Tidehollow Sculler, going T1 IoK/TS, T2 Sculler, into T3 Kolaghan's/Mardu Charm. Sculler has some nice interactions with Kolaghan's as well since you can end step force a discard, return a Sculler, untap, and Sculler their remaining card.
The three drop we were talking about is Hammer of Purphoros it grants the same hasted advantage with big guys like Angler/DS that Bushwhackers do, curves into them well, and the ability to sacrifice lands for 3/3's helps the topdeck situation immensely.
Our next Modern event is in two weeks (the local pattern is 2 Modern, 1 Draft... next week is Draft week), and I think the plan right now is I'm going to try the Gather route, with the other person trying the Sculler route and us both playing a Hammer or two.
Right now, this is the list I'm planning on playing.
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Arid Mesa
4 Blood Crypt
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Mana Confluence
1 Slayers' Stronghold
Creatures 10
4 Death's Shadow
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Lingering Souls
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Mardu Charm
Artifact 1
1 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Slagstorm
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Deflecting Palm
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pyroclasm
2 Lost Legacy
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Crackling Doom
2 Stony Silence
1 Crumble to Dust
Slayer is pretty good but hanweir allows us to hit faster. We can hit as early as possible with death's shadow. That's outperform Slayers in the end.
Also, I tested Temur battle rage.
It's definitly a must. I am considering 2 of.
I played against Boogles 3 times and both us avoided side in any cards. Temur gave me one game and almost changed the board stated in my favor.
Give it a try...or two.
I really don't see the point of the Bushwhackers in a DS list.
Btw here are the videos with the PW's list - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZvPLaSBlx8
Not necessarily, Intangible Virtue doesn't give you the threat of hasted Anglers/Shadows.
I had a long reply typed up as a response but hit back on accident, whoops. Basically the deck functions like an Abzan/Jund midrange deck so a lot of the same sideboarding rules and good/bad matchups apply. Tron game one is awful but you get to bring in a lot and more importantly take out a lot of awful cards. Collected Company decks are good matchups as hand disruption for noncreature spells and kill spells for creatures is exactly what you are built to do and what ends up happening a lot of the times I play the deck. I have a sideboarding guide on the tappedout page that's up to date (minus one or two changes) and it has been good for me so far. In general the sideboard plan boils down to what cards are awful against what you're playing (ex. Liliana vs Lingering Souls decks) and what cards can be upgraded (ex. Damnation/Crackling Doom over Bolt against Eldrazi).
If you do give it a try, I'd love to hear how it goes for you. Also where I play streams our weeklies so if I end up getting on stream with the deck I can provide a link to the gameplay.
I was considering a build like yours but with two changes:
1) Using only 1 Kiki-Jikki, 3 Restoration Angels + token cards.
2) Adding 1-2 Indomitable Creativity. Sometimes I fell that creativity to 1 or 2 can find a Kiki or Emrakul earlier.
If you're playing with nahiri + emrakul you're on the mid range route. You will have a hard time to combo on turn 5 using a 2RRR and a 3W cards. Probably you will be able to do so safely, without opponent interaction, on t7.
To me, your mana base is stressed, your curve is high and have a lot of candidates on turn 5 and 6. To get the enemy out of guard...one often play resto angel with flash.
Best Case scenario: resto on t4, hoping the opponent does nothing, untap to t5... Cast Kiki and Hope for no interaction. If It fails, you trying again on t7...?
While trying...you're not getting any value.
So... imho you should aim for more value to advance on your boardstate thus controlling the game and safely combo.
Cheers,
Have you tried a copy of Pia&Kiran in this package?
I'd also suggest Sorin, Solemn Visitor for the life-swing with the tokens.
(246-174-26)
Once again Squadron Hawk put in work and win me several games. Nether Traitor was a letdown, his impact just wasn't enough to justify keeping the set in the deck so they're being cut for something else.
2 Arid Mesa
2 Marsh Flats
2 Canyon Slough
1 Godless Shrine
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Concealed Courtyard
1 Inspiring Vantage
2 Shambling Vents
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Nether Traitor
3 Butcher of the Horde
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
2 Bitterblossom
1 Collective Brutality
1 Lightning Helix
4 Lingering Souls
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Ajani Vengeant
1 Batterskull
3 Rest In Peace
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Wrath of God
1 Slaughter Games
1 Ethersworn Canonist