you are right in your evaluation of Reveler , he does indeed feel like a 4-5 drop. Angler + stronghold is also an amazing play. i´ve come to like slayers stronghold so much , that i am running two mainboard right now. trying to get a japanese foil version of it , i really dig the card, glad that you included it too!
how´s it been for you ?
It's been good. I would like a second, but I don't think that's doable with my need for red mana.
Please help me out here. I have a good friend who is objectively saying that push is better than bolt in this deck. I am trying to convince him but at this point I need some assistance convincing him (and myself a bit) that 4 bolt is still correct. Thanks in advance!
Please help me out here. I have a good friend who is objectively saying that push is better than bolt in this deck. I am trying to convince him but at this point I need some assistance convincing him (and myself a bit) that 4 bolt is still correct. Thanks in advance!
Bolt (and Helix) give the control and midrange versions of the deck that much needed reach to close out games. Push is objectively better at removing creatures, but bolt has the versatility of going upstairs. I don't think running less than 4 is correct in either the control or midrange variants. As far as the DS versions most still seems to be running 4, so It may not be as necessary there. But I am not as familiar with that version.
I would like to hear your friends arguments as to why push should replace bolt.
I was wondering specifically about the nahiri version of the deck because he said what can bolt kill that push can't? And my response was "your opponent's life total" and he said it didn't matter in the nahiri version. Anyway, thanks again in advance from a less seasoned mardu player!
I was wondering specifically about the nahiri version of the deck because he said what can bolt kill that push can't? And my response was "your opponent's life total" and he said it didn't matter in the nahiri version. Anyway, thanks again in advance from a less seasoned mardu player!
Well why would you need us to help convince him? This implies you don't have a good enough reason to strongly prefer bolt over push.
I run 4 lightning bolt in a death shadow build but this is because the deck is aggro and midrange. When you go control, the burn aspect of lightning bolt matters far less especially without the ability to recur snapcaster mages. And even seasoned Grixis control players play 2 fatal push in addition to lightning bolt. With Mardu control, this ratio is going to be a bit different because you have no snapcaster mage and you have no counterspells to have a semi-universal answer for threats.
When the objective of a control deck is to stay alive, fatal push is head and shoulders above lightning bolt as it gets rid of manlands, Tarmogoyfs, potentially 3-4 cmc creatures,and any combat based creatures (Affinity, Infect, Merfolk, etc.). Playing 4 Path to Exile against some decks is simply not enough, especially in a deck without snapcaster mage for recursion.
I would do a 2 bolt/ 4 push split and see how it goes from there. Also, the important thing is to consider the mana base - whether you need to fetch for black or for red first and minimize shocking.
My only beef with Bone Picker is the slight tension with Path to Exile. Path is one of the major cards justifying our white splash (in addition to Lingering Souls and white sideboard cards). However, Path-ing an opponent's creature doesn't trigger Bone Picker's cost-reduction ability. Yes, you can shave some copies of Path to run more Push, Terminate, or other edict effects, but it still feels a little sub-optimal since a full set of Paths is a good call in this meta. Again, it's not necessarily a reason to dismiss Bone Picker, it just bothers me a little.
Turned my remaining Reveler into a Ranger of Eos, tutor 2 is stronger than draw 3, and it's an actual 4 mana play, Reveler all too often ended up being in the 6 mana range. Also went up on Goblin Bushwhacker, it's now in a 2/3 split with Reckless Bushwhacker. Slayers' Stronghold continues to perform well, but it causes a few mana issues, so there's no way I can add the second that I want.
Played a casual 4 round today (as in, we played 3 games each round regardless of outcome). 3-0 Affinity, 3-0 Dredge, 3-0 KCI, 2-1 Mono white enchantments. Mardu DS is very, very, very good. I'm currently something like 17-3 with it in rounds and I can beat practically anything with a good draw. If you haven't tried it, and you already have the cards (or don't mind buying the DS), give it a try.
Turned my remaining Reveler into a Ranger of Eos, tutor 2 is stronger than draw 3, and it's an actual 4 mana play, Reveler all too often ended up being in the 6 mana range. Also went up on Goblin Bushwhacker, it's now in a 2/3 split with Reckless Bushwhacker. Slayers' Stronghold continues to perform well, but it causes a few mana issues, so there's no way I can add the second that I want.
Played a casual 4 round today (as in, we played 3 games each round regardless of outcome). 3-0 Affinity, 3-0 Dredge, 3-0 KCI, 2-1 Mono white enchantments. Mardu DS is very, very, very good. I'm currently something like 17-3 with it in rounds and I can beat practically anything with a good draw. If you haven't tried it, and you already have the cards (or don't mind buying the DS), give it a try.
Yes. The card is great, it's the whole reason I can beat combo decks like KCI and it does serious work against Affinity and other aggro decks too. It's also what breaks the mirror wide open against the Grixis/Jund DS decks (well, that and Souls, both are backbreaking).
The amount it hurts you is really variable. Having the option to choose when it comes down to your spell sequencing, and when it leaves through choosing your attacks/blocks gives you a lot of room to maneuver around it and get just the precise amount of life loss you want out of it.
Here's the current list. It's similar to what's on the previous page so I hope I'm not being too spammy, but I did change 2 cards.
I have won a lot of games off of the Souls/Bushwhacker curve.
Even when they see it coming, Ranger of Eos is hard to beat too. Ranger threatens 20+ damage on the turn after casting unless they hold back to block. And if they do hold back, you just get double DS instead and dominate the board.
Thank you. I am currently buying some eidolons 'cause is a staple. It's a good opportunity to play test the card.
Also, have you considered testing Orzhov charm is 1 of?
It can work as some recursive threat.
im really glad you are enjoying Slayers stronghold ! it´s performing well for me too .
im really intrigued by your results with your Eidolon approach. to be honest , i never thought it was bad , it´s just not the variant that i would personally run , however , i do see some benefits over my version.
as stated by you , i believe your deck is indeed faster , and much more explosive due to the bushwackers. and i like that , i proxied an earlier version of your list and had some games with a friend , it seemed to work really well, and is a really original List! have you run into a DS mirror match ? if so , how has it been?
i´m currently thinking about running a singleton condemn in the side for other DS decks. not that i was particularly struggling against them , but the card is such a blowout against them. i found it noteworthy that orzhov charm has been amazing. had someone try to condem one of my shadows ( had 3 on board) . but orzhov charm had it bounced back to my hand and replayed in no time.
I've played against Jund and BUG shadow, but not Grixis. I was heavily favored in both and that was before this more recent build that worked in the Kolaghans Commands and more Rangers. I remember one play by the BUG player specifically, I was at 4 life and went Shadow, Shadow, Bushwhacker, swing 22. The BUG player went Push, Snapcaster, Push, and we had clear boards. My next turn was another Bushwhacker. I flashbacked Souls and cast it. Swung in for 6 hasted damage (opponent was at 5, my shadow play was way overkill) from an empty board state. Similar things happen to Jund, they rely too heavily on having a high card velocity and fall victim to Eidolon. If they abuse it too much, they end up losing to Souls and Bolts. If they don't abuse it enough, our DS's are bigger and they're helpless.
I have been considering my 3/2 Push/Path split and reversing it to 2/3. I think 2 Push+3 Bolt covers early removal well, and I would feel safer on T4+ with 3 Path.
Thank you. I am currently buying some eidolons 'cause is a staple. It's a good opportunity to play test the card.
Also, have you considered testing Orzhov charm is 1 of?
It can work as some recursive threat.
I don't have anything against Orzhov Charm, it's just a bit awkward with the mana. I think that if you want it, the cut is Liliana of the Veil. My reasoning is that they both cover removal, and Liliana tends to encourage more Blood Crypts on board due to how heavily red the mana leans (if you noticed between versions I even cut Godless Shrine because it's non red). Orzhov Charm needs a Sacred Foundry though. It's only on the Mana Confluence hands where you can easily curve both Charm and Liliana. At the same time though, the deck generally wants double black regardless.
I do however like the above reminder about Orzhov Charms bounce ability. A few times I've found myself wishing I could replay a Bushwhacker and Charm is pretty good at that. That's definitely something worth considering.
I'll think some more on it, because of the red focus, the color curve really needs to be watched.
Why run reveler in your list in the first place? You're only running 20 instants and sorceries, you need to be at like 30 to reliably cast reveler, he's a build around card
Why run reveler in your list in the first place? You're only running 20 instants and sorceries, you need to be at like 30 to reliably cast reveler, he's a build around card
Others suggested it and I tried it. It ended up not working out well, it was too slow. Ranger of Eos does things better.
Well that's just incorrect to play it in your list, the card is a lot more of a Grindr card than what you want to be doing. It's like someone suggesting a Goblin Electromancer in Grixis control, great card in storm but does nothing if not built around
Well that's just incorrect to play it in your list, the card is a lot more of a Grindr card than what you want to be doing. It's like someone suggesting a Goblin Electromancer in Grixis control, great card in storm but does nothing if not built around
Got to try out Gideon of the Trials today thanks to a friend loaning me his copies. It was beastly and I'm going to try and get a playset of him as soon as possible because I feel he did so well. He's definitely replacing Mardu Strike Leader in my list. Played against mono white flyers (2-1), Tribal Flames Zoo (2-0), Elves (0-2), and Infect (2-0). Here's what I ran:
Biggest performers were Gideon, Intangible Virture, and Crackling Doom. Sword came in huge against Mono W Flyers and Infect. Gideon's emblem won me the match against Mono W Flyers.
I'm thinking I need to cut Entreat the Angels to 1 copy and cut Kalitas since he hasn't performed at all. I'm thinking either 2 Harsh Mentor or 1 Gideon and 1 Lightning Helix.
Private Mod Note
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Collecting Timbermare, hit me up if you have any for trade
I'd also not play Intangible Virtue in a deck with only 3x Bitterblossom and 4x Lingering Souls as token-producers (I don't count Entreat), this card is only playable in a dedicated tokens list imho.
Also since you play Emrakul in the deck why only 2x Nahiri and not the full playset ?
It just makes Emrakul worse in the deck as you have no other way to cast it anyway.
Cutting a Gideon and an Ajani for 2x more Nahiri's would make sense imho.
It's been good. I would like a second, but I don't think that's doable with my need for red mana.
Bolt (and Helix) give the control and midrange versions of the deck that much needed reach to close out games. Push is objectively better at removing creatures, but bolt has the versatility of going upstairs. I don't think running less than 4 is correct in either the control or midrange variants. As far as the DS versions most still seems to be running 4, so It may not be as necessary there. But I am not as familiar with that version.
I would like to hear your friends arguments as to why push should replace bolt.
Well why would you need us to help convince him? This implies you don't have a good enough reason to strongly prefer bolt over push.
I run 4 lightning bolt in a death shadow build but this is because the deck is aggro and midrange. When you go control, the burn aspect of lightning bolt matters far less especially without the ability to recur snapcaster mages. And even seasoned Grixis control players play 2 fatal push in addition to lightning bolt. With Mardu control, this ratio is going to be a bit different because you have no snapcaster mage and you have no counterspells to have a semi-universal answer for threats.
When the objective of a control deck is to stay alive, fatal push is head and shoulders above lightning bolt as it gets rid of manlands, Tarmogoyfs, potentially 3-4 cmc creatures,and any combat based creatures (Affinity, Infect, Merfolk, etc.). Playing 4 Path to Exile against some decks is simply not enough, especially in a deck without snapcaster mage for recursion.
I would do a 2 bolt/ 4 push split and see how it goes from there. Also, the important thing is to consider the mana base - whether you need to fetch for black or for red first and minimize shocking.
After the full set got spoiled I can potentially see Bone Picker as a good option for Mardu as a (conditinally) cheap threat.
Played a casual 4 round today (as in, we played 3 games each round regardless of outcome). 3-0 Affinity, 3-0 Dredge, 3-0 KCI, 2-1 Mono white enchantments. Mardu DS is very, very, very good. I'm currently something like 17-3 with it in rounds and I can beat practically anything with a good draw. If you haven't tried it, and you already have the cards (or don't mind buying the DS), give it a try.
Are you playing with eidolon?
Yes. The card is great, it's the whole reason I can beat combo decks like KCI and it does serious work against Affinity and other aggro decks too. It's also what breaks the mirror wide open against the Grixis/Jund DS decks (well, that and Souls, both are backbreaking).
The amount it hurts you is really variable. Having the option to choose when it comes down to your spell sequencing, and when it leaves through choosing your attacks/blocks gives you a lot of room to maneuver around it and get just the precise amount of life loss you want out of it.
Here's the current list. It's similar to what's on the previous page so I hope I'm not being too spammy, but I did change 2 cards.
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
3 Blood Crypt
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Mana Confluence
1 Slayer's Stronghold
Creatures 15
4 Death's Shadow
2 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Ranger of Eos
2 Liliana of the Veil
Spells 21
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Lingering Souls
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lost Legacy
2 Crumble to Dust
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crackling Doom
1 Deflecting Palm
1 Dismember
2 Nihil Spellbomb
I have won a lot of games off of the Souls/Bushwhacker curve.
Even when they see it coming, Ranger of Eos is hard to beat too. Ranger threatens 20+ damage on the turn after casting unless they hold back to block. And if they do hold back, you just get double DS instead and dominate the board.
Also, have you considered testing Orzhov charm is 1 of?
It can work as some recursive threat.
I've played against Jund and BUG shadow, but not Grixis. I was heavily favored in both and that was before this more recent build that worked in the Kolaghans Commands and more Rangers. I remember one play by the BUG player specifically, I was at 4 life and went Shadow, Shadow, Bushwhacker, swing 22. The BUG player went Push, Snapcaster, Push, and we had clear boards. My next turn was another Bushwhacker. I flashbacked Souls and cast it. Swung in for 6 hasted damage (opponent was at 5, my shadow play was way overkill) from an empty board state. Similar things happen to Jund, they rely too heavily on having a high card velocity and fall victim to Eidolon. If they abuse it too much, they end up losing to Souls and Bolts. If they don't abuse it enough, our DS's are bigger and they're helpless.
I have been considering my 3/2 Push/Path split and reversing it to 2/3. I think 2 Push+3 Bolt covers early removal well, and I would feel safer on T4+ with 3 Path.
I don't have anything against Orzhov Charm, it's just a bit awkward with the mana. I think that if you want it, the cut is Liliana of the Veil. My reasoning is that they both cover removal, and Liliana tends to encourage more Blood Crypts on board due to how heavily red the mana leans (if you noticed between versions I even cut Godless Shrine because it's non red). Orzhov Charm needs a Sacred Foundry though. It's only on the Mana Confluence hands where you can easily curve both Charm and Liliana. At the same time though, the deck generally wants double black regardless.
I do however like the above reminder about Orzhov Charms bounce ability. A few times I've found myself wishing I could replay a Bushwhacker and Charm is pretty good at that. That's definitely something worth considering.
I'll think some more on it, because of the red focus, the color curve really needs to be watched.
I'm not a fan of Reveler or Swiftspear, maybe other creatures would suit well in their place?
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Others suggested it and I tried it. It ended up not working out well, it was too slow. Ranger of Eos does things better.
That's why it's no longer in the list.
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
1 Blood Crypt
3 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Concealed Courtyard
1 Inspiring Vantage
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Shambling Vent
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Butcher of the Horde
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Planeswalkers
3 Gideon of the Trials
2 Nahiri the Harbinger
1 Ajani Vengeant
Enchantment/Artifact
3 Bitterblossom
2 Intangible Virtue
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Sorcery/Instant
4 Lingering Souls
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Path to Exile
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Fatal Push
1 Terminate
1 Collective Brutality
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Crackling Doom
3 Rest In Peace
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wrath of God
1 Engineered Explosives
Biggest performers were Gideon, Intangible Virture, and Crackling Doom. Sword came in huge against Mono W Flyers and Infect. Gideon's emblem won me the match against Mono W Flyers.
I'm thinking I need to cut Entreat the Angels to 1 copy and cut Kalitas since he hasn't performed at all. I'm thinking either 2 Harsh Mentor or 1 Gideon and 1 Lightning Helix.
Any other token producer would be more playable imho, like: Young Pyromancer, Spectral Procession/Midnight Haunting or Sram's Expertise/Timely Reinforcements.
I'd also not play Intangible Virtue in a deck with only 3x Bitterblossom and 4x Lingering Souls as token-producers (I don't count Entreat), this card is only playable in a dedicated tokens list imho.
Also since you play Emrakul in the deck why only 2x Nahiri and not the full playset ?
It just makes Emrakul worse in the deck as you have no other way to cast it anyway.
Cutting a Gideon and an Ajani for 2x more Nahiri's would make sense imho.
Your list seems rather light on removal, I'd rather play more Fatal Push/Terminate (or Path to Exile) over Collective Brutality and Kolaghan's Command (and Intangible Virtue).
4x Crackling Doom seems really odd in the SB, why choose it over Path to Exile/Terminate (or even Blessed Alliance) ?
Is "Bogles" a major player in your meta ?