I'd personally drop the Gideon and Elspeth for 2 more Lillys - Lilly is just insanely more powerful than both of them and is a 3 mana win con herself against a lot of decks. Elspeth is so expensive and you're already doing well against grindy strategies with Souls and Nahiri. Gideon just turns on opponent's Paths that would otherwise be dead.
I'd also drop the Pias - with Walls and Souls, you're really trying to ideally go Turn 1 interaction (Discard or Bolt), turn 2 interaction or Wall, turn 3 Souls or Lilly, and turn 4 Nahiri. There just aren't many decks that can beat that line. Wall is a great T2 play that sets up a nice defense for your win cons of Nahiri and Lilly.
I agree with you on Lilly's I think 3-4 is where this should be, I just only own 2 right now, so I am dropping both Gideon and Elspeth as both underperformed and for now am going with 2 restoration angel, as for PK I completely disagree that card has been a haymaker almost overtime I play it, and face it not every game curves out T1, 1 drop, T2 wall, 3 Souls, 4 Nahiri, in fact that prob happens around 20% of games, and PK gives me another win condition combine with souls and vents to beat with. Also remember time can be a factor if you don't land the quick nahiri win and PK can end the game effectively, and even when PK eats a bolt or whatever I still have 2 1/1 flyers to help beat or block for nahiri and lily. Really if it wasn't a legend I'd run 3.
You guys are looking at it wrong. Liliana and the other planeswalkers serve a completely different role. Liliana is great against control and combo but against aggro and midrange, you want something else. Sometimes your removal doesn't line up well with your opponents or your opponents derive more value in redundancy and cards like Company/ Chord. This is when Lingering Souls doesn't do enough on its own.
Elspeth is a bit too much for 6-mana. But one crazy idea is to jam a bunch of Batterskulls in the deck. Of course, Kolaghan's Command is terrible but Jund only runs 2 and you can easily discard copies of it. Not as great games 2 and 3 with all the artifact hate but you can side them out for something else if your opponent has Ancient Grudge. You just want something that can both stabilize and put a clock.
I've tested Nahiri online and my general feeling is encapsulated in one word: inconsistent. I don't even think Jeskai Nahiri is as competitive as it seems and that to me has fared better against most of the meta with Snapcaster Mage + Serum Visions outweighing the value of white cards.
I'd personally drop the Gideon and Elspeth for 2 more Lillys - Lilly is just insanely more powerful than both of them and is a 3 mana win con herself against a lot of decks. Elspeth is so expensive and you're already doing well against grindy strategies with Souls and Nahiri. Gideon just turns on opponent's Paths that would otherwise be dead.
I'd also drop the Pias - with Walls and Souls, you're really trying to ideally go Turn 1 interaction (Discard or Bolt), turn 2 interaction or Wall, turn 3 Souls or Lilly, and turn 4 Nahiri. There just aren't many decks that can beat that line. Wall is a great T2 play that sets up a nice defense for your win cons of Nahiri and Lilly.
I agree with you on Lilly's I think 3-4 is where this should be, I just only own 2 right now, so I am dropping both Gideon and Elspeth as both underperformed and for now am going with 2 restoration angel, as for PK I completely disagree that card has been a haymaker almost overtime I play it, and face it not every game curves out T1, 1 drop, T2 wall, 3 Souls, 4 Nahiri, in fact that prob happens around 20% of games, and PK gives me another win condition combine with souls and vents to beat with. Also remember time can be a factor if you don't land the quick nahiri win and PK can end the game effectively, and even when PK eats a bolt or whatever I still have 2 1/1 flyers to help beat or block for nahiri and lily. Really if it wasn't a legend I'd run 3.
You guys are looking at it wrong. Liliana and the other planeswalkers serve a completely different role. Liliana is great against control and combo but against aggro and midrange, you want something else. Sometimes your removal doesn't line up well with your opponents or your opponents derive more value in redundancy and cards like Company/ Chord. This is when Lingering Souls doesn't do enough on its own.
Elspeth is a bit too much for 6-mana. But one crazy idea is to jam a bunch of Batterskulls in the deck. Of course, Kolaghan's Command is terrible but Jund only runs 2 and you can easily discard copies of it. Not as great games 2 and 3 with all the artifact hate but you can side them out for something else if your opponent has Ancient Grudge. You just want something that can both stabilize and put a clock.
I've tested Nahiri online and my general feeling is encapsulated in one word: inconsistent. I don't even think Jeskai Nahiri is as competitive as it seems and that to me has fared better against most of the meta with Snapcaster Mage + Serum Visions outweighing the value of white cards.
I've played Jeskai and this, and I think Nahiri is much better in this shell, and I really think there is potential here and that some slots still need testing before I am willing to go one way or the other on this deck. The fact is with PK I have won several games with that in games where I couldn't just Nahiri for the win. I'm not 100% on how many lily's we should run main but I figure at least 2 and 3-4 is very possible, maybe more sweepers main in agree metas is a good idea as well.
How do you guys rate The new chandra from Kaladesh in Mardu? Do you think mardu players will ditch the nahiri option over playing a mid-range deck with chandra in it?
I don't even like Nahiri and I'm sure the new Chandra doesn't do anything for the deck. Her +1 is probably not as good as most people think it is while the other abilities are not too relevant due to their loyalty costs. Despite being mono red, I don't think she is that splashable and needs a deck configured to maximize her +1 (maybe skred red)
I don't even like Nahiri and I'm sure the new Chandra doesn't do anything for the deck. Her +1 is probably not as good as most people think it is while the other abilities are not too relevant due to their loyalty costs. Despite being mono red, I don't think she is that splashable and needs a deck configured to maximize her +1 (maybe skred red)
Surely you could run a mainly black red variant with lili and chandra, or a mainly white red variant with brimaz and chandra? I find it real easy to get double white in my deck on turn 3 for brim and double red by turn 4. I do it all the time in my deck due to making sure i have double red to cast my goblin dark dwellers, i don't really see it as being that mana constraining. I've already seen a couple of mardu decks running chandra pyromaster. I know it's the 'cool' thing to under value her at the moment say she's not that good, but she can remove creatures, draw cards, gain you mana and her ultimate is easy to get to. She has 4 abilities and they're literally all good. Sure her plus 1 doesn't always net you a card, but we saw a couple of coursers running about in jund a while back and that doesn't net a card every time either and it was just a 2/4 that drew lands sometimes, this is a lot more powerful... speaking of which... courser + fetchlands + Chandra sounds real good...
Also it's note worthy that her +1 can also pressure other planeswalkers like lili and nahiri.
I wasn't talking about her casting cost being the restriction - rather, her abilities. Double red isn't impossible like you said, it's a matter of running couple filter lands.
". I know it's the 'cool' thing to under value her at the moment say she's not that good, but she can remove creatures, draw cards, gain you mana and her ultimate is easy to get to."
Well let's consider the four abilities. First, we know that the double red mana isn't exactly useful in top deck situations and it's going to be very situational. Second, the bad shock ability isn't great for pressure. If it could target creatures, holy crap that would be amazing. The problem is that her +1 isn't a consistent card engine. The last two abilities have to be looked at more realistically. Versatility to remove a creature is good but we expect more from a 4-drop; it's the same reason people moved away from Ajani because he was too often a 4 mana helix, which is significantly better than Chandra's -3. The ultimate is something you only consider if it's fairly obtainable (e.g Nahiri, Gideon AZ, Sorin SV, etc.) otherwise it shouldn't be a big factor.
Courser still sees some play in Jund but people moved away from it because it doesn't serve a particular niche like Kitchen Finks or Kolaghan's Command does. Command often gives you more value while Kitchen Finks is better at stabilizing your life against linear aggro.
Hey all, has anyone had any experience testing with a Blood Moon build?
This is something that was discussed a while back, but I wasn't sure if anyone actually tried it out or got any testing with it (I haven't, obviously). I think that it's definitely doable with the manabase, at the expense of cutting the Creature-Lands, in fact I've even seen a few Jund lists come up with a similar design (MD Moons without Raging Ravines) which sort of proves it.
In particular I was thinking about ways to improve some of our new(ish) bad matchups that have been getting more popular, Bant Eldrazi & Titanshift. It's also pretty nice that Moon does a lot of splash damage to the rest of the format; I'd plan on testing with 2 Moons MD as a starting point, personally.
EDIT:
Here's a quick list of what I'd probably test first
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
Obviously you could run Wall of Omens in place of Confidant it the chances of flipping Emrakul scare you off, but I'll be taking a chance and testing it. It's also possible that I ought to cut even more (or all) of the Paths, I was just concerned about raising the avg CMC too much.
Hey guys this is the deck I'm planning on finishing up and using for my first modern event. I'm new to modern but not to magic (filthy EDH casual). Is there any glaring issue in the cards I've chosen? I'm sure my biggest issue will be my land base since that's what I normally have the biggest issues with. I'd really like to make room for some Shambling Vents but don't know what to cut, maybe the Godless Shrines?. Anyways, any tips would be greatly appreciated. The side board is still a major work in progress, all I have planned for it so far is 2 Rest in Peace and a playset of Fulminator Mages.
Hey guys this is the deck I'm planning on finishing up and using for my first modern event. I'm new to modern but not to magic (filthy EDH casual). Is there any glaring issue in the cards I've chosen? I'm sure my biggest issue will be my land base since that's what I normally have the biggest issues with. I'd really like to make room for some Shambling Vents but don't know what to cut, maybe the Godless Shrines?. Anyways, any tips would be greatly appreciated. The side board is still a major work in progress, all I have planned for it so far is 2 Rest in Peace and a playset of Fulminator Mages.
You're a bit heavy on the removals, especially Terminate and Dreadbore. Modern is a diverse format where you will face decks that don't care about removals at all, so you need more proactive threats. As to what to add, well that is up to you look around the forum.
You almost never need more than 1 shock lands each so those could be replaced by Shambling Vents, which are very important for this threat-light archetype.
Hey all, has anyone had any experience testing with a Blood Moon build?
This is something that was discussed a while back, but I wasn't sure if anyone actually tried it out or got any testing with it (I haven't, obviously). I think that it's definitely doable with the manabase, at the expense of cutting the Creature-Lands, in fact I've even seen a few Jund lists come up with a similar design (MD Moons without Raging Ravines) which sort of proves it.
In particular I was thinking about ways to improve some of our new(ish) bad matchups that have been getting more popular, Bant Eldrazi & Titanshift. It's also pretty nice that Moon does a lot of splash damage to the rest of the format; I'd plan on testing with 2 Moons MD as a starting point, personally.
EDIT:
Here's a quick list of what I'd probably test first
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
Obviously you could run Wall of Omens in place of Confidant it the chances of flipping Emrakul scare you off, but I'll be taking a chance and testing it. It's also possible that I ought to cut even more (or all) of the Paths, I was just concerned about raising the avg CMC too much.
I tried building a Mardu deck that abuses Blood Moon + flagstones of tarkair + ghost quarters. I haven't had much success with it. You can google some articles about this sort of archetype as it has been done before.
@jongsl5 Only need 1 of each shocks? Really? I guess I'll just remove the extras and put in some Shambling Vents then. Should I bother with Dreadbores at all or just go straight 2-3 Terminates? I figured with how common walkers are that a single Dreadbore might be worthwhile.
So I guess -2 Blood Crypt, -1 Godless Shrine, -1 Sacred Foundry for +4 Shambling Vents.
@ Jongsl I know the types of builds you're talking about but I'm not particularly interested in the Flagstones / Boom Bust / Smallpox builds. I'm planning on testing a more conventional Mardu control shell that utilizes Blood moon as a controlling element to shore up a lot of typically weak matchups.
The pox & boom lists are fine, I've tried them out, but it's a little too cute imo. I just found myself stretching my manabase for more Ghost Quarters & realizing that, while useful, they don't do much to stop Scapeshift or Eldrazi (where land hate ought to shine). The more I messed with the mana the more I was thinking "why can't this be a Blood Moon deck?".
@ Dotphil I think 1 Dreadbore is fine particularly to stop Nahiri, but the thing is Path / Terminate / Dreadbore are synonymous effects. You probably don't need 7 MD hard removal spells; too many will make your MUs vs creature-light decks much worse. Try something like Collective Brutality that's more flexible.
I don't even like Nahiri and I'm sure the new Chandra doesn't do anything for the deck. Her +1 is probably not as good as most people think it is while the other abilities are not too relevant due to their loyalty costs. Despite being mono red, I don't think she is that splashable and needs a deck configured to maximize her +1 (maybe skred red)
Surely you could run a mainly black red variant with lili and chandra, or a mainly white red variant with brimaz and chandra? I find it real easy to get double white in my deck on turn 3 for brim and double red by turn 4. I do it all the time in my deck due to making sure i have double red to cast my goblin dark dwellers, i don't really see it as being that mana constraining. I've already seen a couple of mardu decks running chandra pyromaster. I know it's the 'cool' thing to under value her at the moment say she's not that good, but she can remove creatures, draw cards, gain you mana and her ultimate is easy to get to. She has 4 abilities and they're literally all good. Sure her plus 1 doesn't always net you a card, but we saw a couple of coursers running about in jund a while back and that doesn't net a card every time either and it was just a 2/4 that drew lands sometimes, this is a lot more powerful... speaking of which... courser + fetchlands + Chandra sounds real good...
Also it's note worthy that her +1 can also pressure other planeswalkers like lili and nahiri.
I wasn't talking about her casting cost being the restriction - rather, her abilities. Double red isn't impossible like you said, it's a matter of running couple filter lands.
". I know it's the 'cool' thing to under value her at the moment say she's not that good, but she can remove creatures, draw cards, gain you mana and her ultimate is easy to get to."
Well let's consider the four abilities. First, we know that the double red mana isn't exactly useful in top deck situations and it's going to be very situational. Second, the bad shock ability isn't great for pressure. If it could target creatures, holy crap that would be amazing. The problem is that her +1 isn't a consistent card engine. The last two abilities have to be looked at more realistically. Versatility to remove a creature is good but we expect more from a 4-drop; it's the same reason people moved away from Ajani because he was too often a 4 mana helix, which is significantly better than Chandra's -3. The ultimate is something you only consider if it's fairly obtainable (e.g Nahiri, Gideon AZ, Sorin SV, etc.) otherwise it shouldn't be a big factor.
Courser still sees some play in Jund but people moved away from it because it doesn't serve a particular niche like Kitchen Finks or Kolaghan's Command does. Command often gives you more value while Kitchen Finks is better at stabilizing your life against linear aggro.
If chandra could target creatures with that +1 ability it would be outright broken and her 'chandra the mindsculptor' title would definitely be a suitable name for her.
Her add double red ability is fine... you could use it in conjunction with your lands you know that right? You don't have to have double red mana cards in your deck for that ability to be good. Like if you have a crackling doom and a lightning helix in your hand with 4 lands you could + chandra, get double red and then you could just tap your lands for 2 white and and a black to cast them both and still have one land open to hold up a path/cast an inquisiton or whatever. just cause there aren't double red cards in your deck, it doesn't mean that her double red ability is bad. even adding double red and then tapping one land for white to cast lingering souls is sweet. That ability is not useful in top deck situations, but peeling her of the top and killing a creature is, or peeling her off the top +1 to get a card of the top is too.
Like ajani deals 3 damage, not 4 like chandra does, so his ability isn't just objectively better because sometimes life gain is just completely inconsequential in some match ups, it's not like it kills a thought-not seer it it? Her versatility is what's going to be strong about her. In fact i just had a game today where i peeled an ajani off the top against a thought knot seer, felt real bad man.
You seem to have trouble understanding what I'm talking about. Obviously, the double red can be used for anything if you treat it as colorless. The problem is when your hand is full of cheap removals that you never needed the mana for. By turn 4, you can pretty much cast anything and you most likely don't need to cast multiple things simultaneously. Unless you build a heavy planeswalker build of Mardu, it's not going to be very useful. In Modern, you can't just sit around ramping your mana on turn 4.
The difference is Ajani can cast the helix twice at creature or opponent, which is a huge difference from Chandra's -3. And my original point wasn't trying to debate which of the two is better... the point was that considering Ajani isn't seeing play this weakens the playability of Chandra. Killing things doesn't matter as much when you're in Mardu and half your deck kills everything in the format. Conclusively, Chandra's +1 abilities need to be substantial and have synergy with what we are doing, if you want to put her in the deck.
I don't even like Nahiri and I'm sure the new Chandra doesn't do anything for the deck. Her +1 is probably not as good as most people think it is while the other abilities are not too relevant due to their loyalty costs. Despite being mono red, I don't think she is that splashable and needs a deck configured to maximize her +1 (maybe skred red)
Surely you could run a mainly black red variant with lili and chandra, or a mainly white red variant with brimaz and chandra? I find it real easy to get double white in my deck on turn 3 for brim and double red by turn 4. I do it all the time in my deck due to making sure i have double red to cast my goblin dark dwellers, i don't really see it as being that mana constraining. I've already seen a couple of mardu decks running chandra pyromaster. I know it's the 'cool' thing to under value her at the moment say she's not that good, but she can remove creatures, draw cards, gain you mana and her ultimate is easy to get to. She has 4 abilities and they're literally all good. Sure her plus 1 doesn't always net you a card, but we saw a couple of coursers running about in jund a while back and that doesn't net a card every time either and it was just a 2/4 that drew lands sometimes, this is a lot more powerful... speaking of which... courser + fetchlands + Chandra sounds real good...
Also it's note worthy that her +1 can also pressure other planeswalkers like lili and nahiri.
I wasn't talking about her casting cost being the restriction - rather, her abilities. Double red isn't impossible like you said, it's a matter of running couple filter lands.
". I know it's the 'cool' thing to under value her at the moment say she's not that good, but she can remove creatures, draw cards, gain you mana and her ultimate is easy to get to."
Well let's consider the four abilities. First, we know that the double red mana isn't exactly useful in top deck situations and it's going to be very situational. Second, the bad shock ability isn't great for pressure. If it could target creatures, holy crap that would be amazing. The problem is that her +1 isn't a consistent card engine. The last two abilities have to be looked at more realistically. Versatility to remove a creature is good but we expect more from a 4-drop; it's the same reason people moved away from Ajani because he was too often a 4 mana helix, which is significantly better than Chandra's -3. The ultimate is something you only consider if it's fairly obtainable (e.g Nahiri, Gideon AZ, Sorin SV, etc.) otherwise it shouldn't be a big factor.
Courser still sees some play in Jund but people moved away from it because it doesn't serve a particular niche like Kitchen Finks or Kolaghan's Command does. Command often gives you more value while Kitchen Finks is better at stabilizing your life against linear aggro.
You may be right that new Chandra isn't good enough but I think it is worth testing before dismissing it in a mardu shell, I mean it's not like we have a Tier 1 deck so to just dismiss ideas without trying them seems very short sighted. After all when Nahiri was first spoiled I heard very little talk of her in modern yet after people tried it they found it was good enough in a Jeskai shell to be competitive in morden and I can go on and on about cards that people would dismiss without really trying only to see them tested by some group to make it. fact is a 4 mana walker with 4 abilities has a lot of flexability is definitely worth trying, I have some doubts on it as well, but also wouldn't be surprised if it makes it to some modern play whether as a 4 of or maybe just a 1-2 of in some fashion in some deck or decks.
I don't even like Nahiri and I'm sure the new Chandra doesn't do anything for the deck. Her +1 is probably not as good as most people think it is while the other abilities are not too relevant due to their loyalty costs. Despite being mono red, I don't think she is that splashable and needs a deck configured to maximize her +1 (maybe skred red)
Surely you could run a mainly black red variant with lili and chandra, or a mainly white red variant with brimaz and chandra? I find it real easy to get double white in my deck on turn 3 for brim and double red by turn 4. I do it all the time in my deck due to making sure i have double red to cast my goblin dark dwellers, i don't really see it as being that mana constraining. I've already seen a couple of mardu decks running chandra pyromaster. I know it's the 'cool' thing to under value her at the moment say she's not that good, but she can remove creatures, draw cards, gain you mana and her ultimate is easy to get to. She has 4 abilities and they're literally all good. Sure her plus 1 doesn't always net you a card, but we saw a couple of coursers running about in jund a while back and that doesn't net a card every time either and it was just a 2/4 that drew lands sometimes, this is a lot more powerful... speaking of which... courser + fetchlands + Chandra sounds real good...
Also it's note worthy that her +1 can also pressure other planeswalkers like lili and nahiri.
I wasn't talking about her casting cost being the restriction - rather, her abilities. Double red isn't impossible like you said, it's a matter of running couple filter lands.
". I know it's the 'cool' thing to under value her at the moment say she's not that good, but she can remove creatures, draw cards, gain you mana and her ultimate is easy to get to."
Well let's consider the four abilities. First, we know that the double red mana isn't exactly useful in top deck situations and it's going to be very situational. Second, the bad shock ability isn't great for pressure. If it could target creatures, holy crap that would be amazing. The problem is that her +1 isn't a consistent card engine. The last two abilities have to be looked at more realistically. Versatility to remove a creature is good but we expect more from a 4-drop; it's the same reason people moved away from Ajani because he was too often a 4 mana helix, which is significantly better than Chandra's -3. The ultimate is something you only consider if it's fairly obtainable (e.g Nahiri, Gideon AZ, Sorin SV, etc.) otherwise it shouldn't be a big factor.
Courser still sees some play in Jund but people moved away from it because it doesn't serve a particular niche like Kitchen Finks or Kolaghan's Command does. Command often gives you more value while Kitchen Finks is better at stabilizing your life against linear aggro.
You may be right that new Chandra isn't good enough but I think it is worth testing before dismissing it in a mardu shell, I mean it's not like we have a Tier 1 deck so to just dismiss ideas without trying them seems very short sighted. After all when Nahiri was first spoiled I heard very little talk of her in modern yet after people tried it they found it was good enough in a Jeskai shell to be competitive in morden and I can go on and on about cards that people would dismiss without really trying only to see them tested by some group to make it. fact is a 4 mana walker with 4 abilities has a lot of flexability is definitely worth trying, I have some doubts on it as well, but also wouldn't be surprised if it makes it to some modern play whether as a 4 of or maybe just a 1-2 of in some fashion in some deck or decks.
I wasn't discouraging testing, but clearly, there are things you can talk about from a theoretical perspective otherwise we'd be testing every cards that ever come out. When Nahiri came out, what people underestimated was really her ultimate, since most planeswalkers we see we don't particularly care about their ultimate abilities. But I wouldn't say she was underrated or anything. Even now, there is no universal consensus among Jeskai players that Nahiri is the best shell to build around.
It's a Nahiri / Emrakul list fearlessly packing Dark Confidants. I actually tested a similar list (shared it on the previous page of this thread) a few days ago at a local 4-round modern night & honestly the Confidant + Nahiri build felt great (never drew a Blood Moon in any game so jury's out there). Sometimes that stream of CA is what you need, and surprisingly often against creature aggro decks a T2 Confidant actually saves you life in the long run (giving you more removal than you'd otherwise have & eventually trading or chumping). This is also the second top 8 list I've seen with Confidant + Emrakul, so it might be more than a coincidence.
Another interesting innovation in the top 8 list is MD Engineered Explosives as a nice catch-all.
EDIT: Unrelated question, but I don't want to double-post; has anyone tested Liliana, the Last Hope? Her +1 seems very strong in modern and she could potentially offer a win condition. I'm considering testing a 1-of as my 4th Liliana (so 3/1 split with LotV).
It's a Nahiri / Emrakul list fearlessly packing Dark Confidants. I actually tested a similar list (shared it on the previous page of this thread) a few days ago at a local 4-round modern night & honestly the Confidant + Nahiri build felt great (never drew a Blood Moon in any game so jury's out there). Sometimes that stream of CA is what you need, and surprisingly often against creature aggro decks a T2 Confidant actually saves you life in the long run (giving you more removal than you'd otherwise have & eventually trading or chumping). This is also the second top 8 list I've seen with Confidant + Emrakul, so it might be more than a coincidence.
Another interesting innovation in the top 8 list is MD Engineered Explosives as a nice catch-all.
EDIT: Unrelated question, but I don't want to double-post; has anyone tested Liliana, the Last Hope? Her +1 seems very strong in modern and she could potentially offer a win condition. I'm considering testing a 1-of as my 4th Liliana (so 3/1 split with LotV).
Liliana LH is pretty good in Grixis as they can recur Snapcaster Mage and the Delve creatures. They also have trouble dealing with Lingering Souls more. Our targets are not as good and we get very little benefits from the +1 or -2 ability otherwise.
It's a Nahiri / Emrakul list fearlessly packing Dark Confidants. I actually tested a similar list (shared it on the previous page of this thread) a few days ago at a local 4-round modern night & honestly the Confidant + Nahiri build felt great (never drew a Blood Moon in any game so jury's out there). Sometimes that stream of CA is what you need, and surprisingly often against creature aggro decks a T2 Confidant actually saves you life in the long run (giving you more removal than you'd otherwise have & eventually trading or chumping). This is also the second top 8 list I've seen with Confidant + Emrakul, so it might be more than a coincidence.
Another interesting innovation in the top 8 list is MD Engineered Explosives as a nice catch-all.
EDIT: Unrelated question, but I don't want to double-post; has anyone tested Liliana, the Last Hope? Her +1 seems very strong in modern and she could potentially offer a win condition. I'm considering testing a 1-of as my 4th Liliana (so 3/1 split with LotV).
It's the same guy who took second place in a SCG event maybe 1 month ago. There was also a first place finish on Sept 11 with a similar list at SCG Modern Super IQ Hatboro.
About LtLH, I don't understand why we wouldn't benefit from her +1 just a much as any other deck. I tried a single copy in the midrange version and although we don't have strong creatures like Jund or Grixis her -2 felt really good anyway. recuring a Kalitas, Soulfire or even Bob felt great. Also having a chance to flip a Lingering is always nice. Don't know in the Nahiri Mardu, -2 might be less interesting with only 4 creatures, 1 in SB could still be great for swarm decks.
I don't even like Nahiri and I'm sure the new Chandra doesn't do anything for the deck. Her +1 is probably not as good as most people think it is while the other abilities are not too relevant due to their loyalty costs. Despite being mono red, I don't think she is that splashable and needs a deck configured to maximize her +1 (maybe skred red)
Surely you could run a mainly black red variant with lili and chandra, or a mainly white red variant with brimaz and chandra? I find it real easy to get double white in my deck on turn 3 for brim and double red by turn 4. I do it all the time in my deck due to making sure i have double red to cast my goblin dark dwellers, i don't really see it as being that mana constraining. I've already seen a couple of mardu decks running chandra pyromaster. I know it's the 'cool' thing to under value her at the moment say she's not that good, but she can remove creatures, draw cards, gain you mana and her ultimate is easy to get to. She has 4 abilities and they're literally all good. Sure her plus 1 doesn't always net you a card, but we saw a couple of coursers running about in jund a while back and that doesn't net a card every time either and it was just a 2/4 that drew lands sometimes, this is a lot more powerful... speaking of which... courser + fetchlands + Chandra sounds real good...
Also it's note worthy that her +1 can also pressure other planeswalkers like lili and nahiri.
I wasn't talking about her casting cost being the restriction - rather, her abilities. Double red isn't impossible like you said, it's a matter of running couple filter lands.
". I know it's the 'cool' thing to under value her at the moment say she's not that good, but she can remove creatures, draw cards, gain you mana and her ultimate is easy to get to."
Well let's consider the four abilities. First, we know that the double red mana isn't exactly useful in top deck situations and it's going to be very situational. Second, the bad shock ability isn't great for pressure. If it could target creatures, holy crap that would be amazing. The problem is that her +1 isn't a consistent card engine. The last two abilities have to be looked at more realistically. Versatility to remove a creature is good but we expect more from a 4-drop; it's the same reason people moved away from Ajani because he was too often a 4 mana helix, which is significantly better than Chandra's -3. The ultimate is something you only consider if it's fairly obtainable (e.g Nahiri, Gideon AZ, Sorin SV, etc.) otherwise it shouldn't be a big factor.
Courser still sees some play in Jund but people moved away from it because it doesn't serve a particular niche like Kitchen Finks or Kolaghan's Command does. Command often gives you more value while Kitchen Finks is better at stabilizing your life against linear aggro.
You may be right that new Chandra isn't good enough but I think it is worth testing before dismissing it in a mardu shell, I mean it's not like we have a Tier 1 deck so to just dismiss ideas without trying them seems very short sighted. After all when Nahiri was first spoiled I heard very little talk of her in modern yet after people tried it they found it was good enough in a Jeskai shell to be competitive in morden and I can go on and on about cards that people would dismiss without really trying only to see them tested by some group to make it. fact is a 4 mana walker with 4 abilities has a lot of flexability is definitely worth trying, I have some doubts on it as well, but also wouldn't be surprised if it makes it to some modern play whether as a 4 of or maybe just a 1-2 of in some fashion in some deck or decks.
I wasn't discouraging testing, but clearly, there are things you can talk about from a theoretical perspective otherwise we'd be testing every cards that ever come out. When Nahiri came out, what people underestimated was really her ultimate, since most planeswalkers we see we don't particularly care about their ultimate abilities. But I wouldn't say she was underrated or anything. Even now, there is no universal consensus among Jeskai players that Nahiri is the best shell to build around.
Just because there isn't a consensus doesn't mean there isn't a best build, Jeskai Nahiri puts up consistantly better results than other Jeskai control builds at this point and it isn't even close, but as far as theory discussion I agree not every card is testable, but I think new Chandra is at least worth a look, after all it's not like any of these Mardu builds is blowing through any major tourney sense with any consistency.
Results don't matter unless you also look at the percentage of decks piloting them. I remember reading an analysis on reddit that showed that nahiri variants actually are yielding very poor results relative to its large player base and even among experienced pilots, its percentages were not great. Part of Nahiri's appeal is that she essentially is a new hopr for splinter twin players.
Once again, I never said Chandra isn't worth testing. I only said on paper, she does not seem to offer anything based on many reasons I listed. It's entirely possible I'm overlooking something.
I've updated my Midrange/Pyro list with Kaladesh and I'm pretty excited about Inspiring Vantage, especially with the slghtly lower curve in my current build. I'm back to Abbot of Keral Keep after ages of not playing the card because I believe it's the strongest catch-all late-game-slot card you can be playing in this pretty damn fast and unpredictable meta and there's way too many match-ups where i don't want to be caught with 4-mana planeswalkers or similar nonsense in hand. Simply slamming Abbot on 2 against linear decks allows you to more consistently establish an actual clock and Prowess is no joke.
That list looks solid. I've been back on Abbot myself. Have you tried running some number of Collective Brutality over one or two Helix?
I had a general question - what do people take out against Junk/Junk? It seems that both discard and Helix are mediocre, but which one's worse?
I've updated my Midrange/Pyro list with Kaladesh and I'm pretty excited about Inspiring Vantage, especially with the slghtly lower curve in my current build. I'm back to Abbot of Keral Keep after ages of not playing the card because I believe it's the strongest catch-all late-game-slot card you can be playing in this pretty damn fast and unpredictable meta and there's way too many match-ups where i don't want to be caught with 4-mana planeswalkers or similar nonsense in hand. Simply slamming Abbot on 2 against linear decks allows you to more consistently establish an actual clock and Prowess is no joke.
That list looks solid. I've been back on Abbot myself. Have you tried running some number of Collective Brutality over one or two Helix?
I had a general question - what do people take out against Junk/Junk? It seems that both discard and Helix are mediocre, but which one's worse?
Depends on your main deck. If you run a lot of vulnerable token makers like Pyromancer, you obviously prioritize the discards. But if you're going the grindy route, the lifegain is great and helix still kills a lot of relevant threats (early ooze, confidant, early grim flayer, early raging ravine, liliana, etc.)
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You guys are looking at it wrong. Liliana and the other planeswalkers serve a completely different role. Liliana is great against control and combo but against aggro and midrange, you want something else. Sometimes your removal doesn't line up well with your opponents or your opponents derive more value in redundancy and cards like Company/ Chord. This is when Lingering Souls doesn't do enough on its own.
Elspeth is a bit too much for 6-mana. But one crazy idea is to jam a bunch of Batterskulls in the deck. Of course, Kolaghan's Command is terrible but Jund only runs 2 and you can easily discard copies of it. Not as great games 2 and 3 with all the artifact hate but you can side them out for something else if your opponent has Ancient Grudge. You just want something that can both stabilize and put a clock.
I've tested Nahiri online and my general feeling is encapsulated in one word: inconsistent. I don't even think Jeskai Nahiri is as competitive as it seems and that to me has fared better against most of the meta with Snapcaster Mage + Serum Visions outweighing the value of white cards.
I've played Jeskai and this, and I think Nahiri is much better in this shell, and I really think there is potential here and that some slots still need testing before I am willing to go one way or the other on this deck. The fact is with PK I have won several games with that in games where I couldn't just Nahiri for the win. I'm not 100% on how many lily's we should run main but I figure at least 2 and 3-4 is very possible, maybe more sweepers main in agree metas is a good idea as well.
I don't even like Nahiri and I'm sure the new Chandra doesn't do anything for the deck. Her +1 is probably not as good as most people think it is while the other abilities are not too relevant due to their loyalty costs. Despite being mono red, I don't think she is that splashable and needs a deck configured to maximize her +1 (maybe skred red)
I wasn't talking about her casting cost being the restriction - rather, her abilities. Double red isn't impossible like you said, it's a matter of running couple filter lands.
". I know it's the 'cool' thing to under value her at the moment say she's not that good, but she can remove creatures, draw cards, gain you mana and her ultimate is easy to get to."
Well let's consider the four abilities. First, we know that the double red mana isn't exactly useful in top deck situations and it's going to be very situational. Second, the bad shock ability isn't great for pressure. If it could target creatures, holy crap that would be amazing. The problem is that her +1 isn't a consistent card engine. The last two abilities have to be looked at more realistically. Versatility to remove a creature is good but we expect more from a 4-drop; it's the same reason people moved away from Ajani because he was too often a 4 mana helix, which is significantly better than Chandra's -3. The ultimate is something you only consider if it's fairly obtainable (e.g Nahiri, Gideon AZ, Sorin SV, etc.) otherwise it shouldn't be a big factor.
Courser still sees some play in Jund but people moved away from it because it doesn't serve a particular niche like Kitchen Finks or Kolaghan's Command does. Command often gives you more value while Kitchen Finks is better at stabilizing your life against linear aggro.
This is something that was discussed a while back, but I wasn't sure if anyone actually tried it out or got any testing with it (I haven't, obviously). I think that it's definitely doable with the manabase, at the expense of cutting the Creature-Lands, in fact I've even seen a few Jund lists come up with a similar design (MD Moons without Raging Ravines) which sort of proves it.
In particular I was thinking about ways to improve some of our new(ish) bad matchups that have been getting more popular, Bant Eldrazi & Titanshift. It's also pretty nice that Moon does a lot of splash damage to the rest of the format; I'd plan on testing with 2 Moons MD as a starting point, personally.
EDIT:
Here's a quick list of what I'd probably test first
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
5x Swamp
3x Marsh Flats
1x Mountain
3x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Godless Shrine
4x Dark Confidant
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Nahiri, the Harbinger
4x Lingering Souls
2x Blood Moon
1x Dreadbore
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Lightning Helix
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Terminate
2x Thoughtseize
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Blood Moon
1x Crackling Doom
1x Damnation
1x Duress
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
1x Thoughtseize
2x Timely Reinforcements
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
Obviously you could run Wall of Omens in place of Confidant it the chances of flipping Emrakul scare you off, but I'll be taking a chance and testing it. It's also possible that I ought to cut even more (or all) of the Paths, I was just concerned about raising the avg CMC too much.
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
3x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Godless Shrine
2x Marsh Flats
1x Mountain
1x Plains
2x Sacred Foundry
2x Swamp
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
3x Path to Exile
3x Terminate
1x Dreadbore
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Thoughtseize
4x Dark Confidant
1x Grim Lavamancer
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
You're a bit heavy on the removals, especially Terminate and Dreadbore. Modern is a diverse format where you will face decks that don't care about removals at all, so you need more proactive threats. As to what to add, well that is up to you look around the forum.
You almost never need more than 1 shock lands each so those could be replaced by Shambling Vents, which are very important for this threat-light archetype.
I tried building a Mardu deck that abuses Blood Moon + flagstones of tarkair + ghost quarters. I haven't had much success with it. You can google some articles about this sort of archetype as it has been done before.
So I guess -2 Blood Crypt, -1 Godless Shrine, -1 Sacred Foundry for +4 Shambling Vents.
The pox & boom lists are fine, I've tried them out, but it's a little too cute imo. I just found myself stretching my manabase for more Ghost Quarters & realizing that, while useful, they don't do much to stop Scapeshift or Eldrazi (where land hate ought to shine). The more I messed with the mana the more I was thinking "why can't this be a Blood Moon deck?".
@ Dotphil I think 1 Dreadbore is fine particularly to stop Nahiri, but the thing is Path / Terminate / Dreadbore are synonymous effects. You probably don't need 7 MD hard removal spells; too many will make your MUs vs creature-light decks much worse. Try something like Collective Brutality that's more flexible.
You seem to have trouble understanding what I'm talking about. Obviously, the double red can be used for anything if you treat it as colorless. The problem is when your hand is full of cheap removals that you never needed the mana for. By turn 4, you can pretty much cast anything and you most likely don't need to cast multiple things simultaneously. Unless you build a heavy planeswalker build of Mardu, it's not going to be very useful. In Modern, you can't just sit around ramping your mana on turn 4.
The difference is Ajani can cast the helix twice at creature or opponent, which is a huge difference from Chandra's -3. And my original point wasn't trying to debate which of the two is better... the point was that considering Ajani isn't seeing play this weakens the playability of Chandra. Killing things doesn't matter as much when you're in Mardu and half your deck kills everything in the format. Conclusively, Chandra's +1 abilities need to be substantial and have synergy with what we are doing, if you want to put her in the deck.
You may be right that new Chandra isn't good enough but I think it is worth testing before dismissing it in a mardu shell, I mean it's not like we have a Tier 1 deck so to just dismiss ideas without trying them seems very short sighted. After all when Nahiri was first spoiled I heard very little talk of her in modern yet after people tried it they found it was good enough in a Jeskai shell to be competitive in morden and I can go on and on about cards that people would dismiss without really trying only to see them tested by some group to make it. fact is a 4 mana walker with 4 abilities has a lot of flexability is definitely worth trying, I have some doubts on it as well, but also wouldn't be surprised if it makes it to some modern play whether as a 4 of or maybe just a 1-2 of in some fashion in some deck or decks.
I wasn't discouraging testing, but clearly, there are things you can talk about from a theoretical perspective otherwise we'd be testing every cards that ever come out. When Nahiri came out, what people underestimated was really her ultimate, since most planeswalkers we see we don't particularly care about their ultimate abilities. But I wouldn't say she was underrated or anything. Even now, there is no universal consensus among Jeskai players that Nahiri is the best shell to build around.
It's a Nahiri / Emrakul list fearlessly packing Dark Confidants. I actually tested a similar list (shared it on the previous page of this thread) a few days ago at a local 4-round modern night & honestly the Confidant + Nahiri build felt great (never drew a Blood Moon in any game so jury's out there). Sometimes that stream of CA is what you need, and surprisingly often against creature aggro decks a T2 Confidant actually saves you life in the long run (giving you more removal than you'd otherwise have & eventually trading or chumping). This is also the second top 8 list I've seen with Confidant + Emrakul, so it might be more than a coincidence.
Another interesting innovation in the top 8 list is MD Engineered Explosives as a nice catch-all.
EDIT: Unrelated question, but I don't want to double-post; has anyone tested Liliana, the Last Hope? Her +1 seems very strong in modern and she could potentially offer a win condition. I'm considering testing a 1-of as my 4th Liliana (so 3/1 split with LotV).
Liliana LH is pretty good in Grixis as they can recur Snapcaster Mage and the Delve creatures. They also have trouble dealing with Lingering Souls more. Our targets are not as good and we get very little benefits from the +1 or -2 ability otherwise.
It's the same guy who took second place in a SCG event maybe 1 month ago. There was also a first place finish on Sept 11 with a similar list at SCG Modern Super IQ Hatboro.
About LtLH, I don't understand why we wouldn't benefit from her +1 just a much as any other deck. I tried a single copy in the midrange version and although we don't have strong creatures like Jund or Grixis her -2 felt really good anyway. recuring a Kalitas, Soulfire or even Bob felt great. Also having a chance to flip a Lingering is always nice. Don't know in the Nahiri Mardu, -2 might be less interesting with only 4 creatures, 1 in SB could still be great for swarm decks.
Just because there isn't a consensus doesn't mean there isn't a best build, Jeskai Nahiri puts up consistantly better results than other Jeskai control builds at this point and it isn't even close, but as far as theory discussion I agree not every card is testable, but I think new Chandra is at least worth a look, after all it's not like any of these Mardu builds is blowing through any major tourney sense with any consistency.
Once again, I never said Chandra isn't worth testing. I only said on paper, she does not seem to offer anything based on many reasons I listed. It's entirely possible I'm overlooking something.
That list looks solid. I've been back on Abbot myself. Have you tried running some number of Collective Brutality over one or two Helix?
I had a general question - what do people take out against Junk/Junk? It seems that both discard and Helix are mediocre, but which one's worse?
Depends on your main deck. If you run a lot of vulnerable token makers like Pyromancer, you obviously prioritize the discards. But if you're going the grindy route, the lifegain is great and helix still kills a lot of relevant threats (early ooze, confidant, early grim flayer, early raging ravine, liliana, etc.)