At the moment, tarmogoyf is the reason to play green.
Abrupt decay matters a lot less, and we have plenty of strong creature removal.
For bob, we do have better lifegain (sfgm, helix, etc), which makes him a bit more appealing.
I think liliana is the biggest question if you're sticking to just white black and red (not splashing for goyf).
She is clearly a powerful card, but with both a shift in the meta, and the fact that we don't topdeck quite as well as gbx means she isn't completely core.
That being said I would run 3-4 or none.
As for lingering souls, I honestly think any list with more than 0 but less than 4 souls can be improve by upping the count. A small number of lists can get away with 0, but otherwise it feels solidly 4-of to me.
Mardu, as general strategy, has two main options as far as two-drops go.
We can play more aggressive creatures (sfgm, sculler, even things like guide/swiftspear), or we can just play more interaction (removal, discard, etc).
We are much more about the 3-drop or 4-drop slot than the 2-drop.
This means that manlands, and lands that etb tapped are better here than in a deck like abzan, where you want to curve out as much as possible.
The struggle here is that we don't have any good manlands. (vents is ok, but no one's happy playing it...).
I also do not consider abbot a 2-drop. Realistically, unless you're playing mishra's bauble or some similar spell, you aren't going to just blindly slam him t2, since even if you do hit a land, you can't play it. He's more of a 4-drop that plays nicer with bob.
I feel that playing mardu more like a control deck works better. You can play smaller creatures like lavamancer or sfgm that retain relevance throughout the game, you can play cards that grind/provide resources like bob, lili, or souls, and you can play stronger expensive creatures/walkers as wincons, such as butcher, sorins, or pnk. (among others). You also have burn to speed these clocks along.
As a closing bit, I've always disliked mentor/pyromancer type cards in this deck (as well as swiftspear/burn creatures) simply because I believe that this deck functions better slower. (Mardu burn is a fine deck, but its not midrange.)
As a general rule, abzan is more aggressive than jund, which is more aggressive than mardu which is more aggressive than sultai, as far as midrange strategies go.
These are just my own thoughts, but we really do have the potential to make games go really long and slow with all the slow value we can play.
Pack Rat is a very decent 2-drop, especially with my build running Sun Titan for recurring the discarded cards.
I've been running Sculler in my 2-drop slot and I think it's very strong, especially in the early game but it's never a dead draw. Haven't wanted to swap it out for anything else yet.
One note on mentor and pryomancer builds, they play best without Liliana, and as a control deck. You very rarely drop Pyromancer and Mentor on 2 and 3 respectively, you use them off curve similar to a Abbot of Kheral Keep. With dark confidant, Kommand, Lingering Souls, Painful Truths, and Outpost Siege you have tons of cards that help grind out the late game.
Mentor and Pyromancer are at their best when you cast it in concert with a IoK or a bolt. Let the deck grind and have mentor and pyromancer turn your amazing one for ones into value. And if you ever stabilize with one out and a vault of archangel it's almost impossible to lose the game against a fair deck.
Other notes been testing Kalitas a bit and I like him, just not sure how much I value it compared to Olivia yet.
And congrats on the results guys. Sounds like the agro side of the meta has shown up and people are able to prey on that a bit.
Hey guys. I don't write here a lot but I check in from time to time. I was wondering if there is some kind of agreed upon best version of this deck, or as least a given core in this archetype. It's seems like this is the best color combination that I can play without goyfs and I really like playing something that's a bit off the radar.
I haven't hade the chance to playtest in a long while so I'm only brewing in theory for now. This is what I've got with so far. Any thoughts?
My version of the deck has its own tarmogoyf, namely Myth Relized. With lingering souls, you have resources a lot of times to pump it. And I haven't Liliana to test it properly, but I'm kinda happy beating affinity and U tron with the following list:
This is an homage to the Grixis Goryo's deck. This list is super spicy and needs some testing but you can see the general idea behind it. Removal/Discard are optional and I could see trimming a few numbers here and there to make room for more threats. The pros/cons are that you don't have Jace but you can cast all of your spells if you need to. I could also see wanting to jam some Kolaghan's Command in there.
Sideboard would include the usual suspects but has potential to include a spicier board of like: Alesha, Avalanche Riders, Fulminator Mage, Unburial Rites.
Just an update on this list, I'm now 21-6 after 5-0ing a league. I think there's a lot to consider in mardu. Bolt+Discard+Path+Souls+Liliana is a really strong shell.
The issue comes in winning the game. I think it is definitely okay to put a strong synergistic combo in here. We need some form of card advantage and Dark Confidant, Faithless Looting, or Painful Truths needs to be in your deck.
I think another big strength could be manlands even a lavaclaw reaches could be what we want. Needle Spires is squishy but hits for 4. You really need to just out-resource them.
I'd say that Myth Realized worths trying in a hard board control with hand disruption. Worked just as my Tarmogoyf when comes into play early. When it gets late when you're behind, it's not good. But that's why I play a bunch of removals and wrath to make a room to it works
Round 1 vs Tron: 2-1
Yeah managed to beat tron, not the most useful win as it was Kuldotha Forgemaster Tron. Still a challenge as it had 2 Ugin's main and a third in the board, but he never drew them and I had paths for his blightsteels. The game I lost I had him at -5 for 5 turns with a Platinum angel out. Problem was I got sundering titan'd so I was stuck on two lands and no white for Path.
Board Plan
Out: IoK, Bolt, Helix
In: Stony Silence, Fulminator, Crumble to Dust, Crackling Doom, Wear/Tear, Painful Truths, Kalitas
Round 2 vs Merfolk: 1-2
Should have won this match miss played in game one by not spewing a path away on a lord for mana efficeny rather than terminating it when I knew about a Master of waves... Game three the fragility of the mana base reared it's ugly head and I got spreading sea's out of the match. The game I won was on the back of Kalitas, he made it almost impossible for the merfolk player to attack properly and put the game quickly out of reach.
Board Plan
Out: Painful Truths, Outpost Siege, 1 thoughtsieze, 2 more on the draw
In: Lightning Helix, Wear/Tear, Kalitas, on the draw Timely Reinforments
Round 3 vs Warp World: 1-2
I lost don't care at all had too much fun giggling as he killed me. Was an awesome match and deck.
Round 4 vs Noble Geist Zoo: 2-1
Kalitas was again a house. Turning removal into a three for one when you have it plus a pyromancer is just beyond disgusting. Lost a game to a Geist of St. Traft that had three noble heirach's exalting his holiness. Attacking for 9 on turn three is pretty strong. Anyway it played like a normal game against agro, had too much removal and cards that key off of it and ran away with the game. It helped that my opponent at one point chose to bolt a Dark Confidant when I had a Young Pryomancer on board but I think I would have won either way as I also had a Kalitas.
Board plan
Out: Thoughtsieze, Painful Truths, Outpost Siege
In: Kalitas, Timely Reinformences, Helix, Zealous Persecution
Overall really pleased with the deck. I need to play tighter as I think all but two of my games were winnable. But I didn't and the deck doesn't give you the free wins that other decks do, you have to slog them all out.
Re: Myth Realized, I was playing it for a while but was never blown away by it. I think it would be better in a devler style deck than it is here. It isn't bad but I never wanted it over a pyromancer or mentor. Growing wide is so important to me, allows gummed up board states that give me a chance to grind my way out.
On myth realized, the issue I had with it when I tested it (and an issue I've had with other cards for the deck) is that it's so bad when topdecked late in a game. It's strong if you run it out early, but I don't like the swingy nature of it. Then again I could be wrong, since the same is true of Aether Vial / Hierarch / IoK and they're all great anyways.
anywhere we can see the pro tour mardu decklists yet? Really curious whats being run as this is a wedge I've long wanted to use in modern but always end up going back to goyf ><
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I bought into the Eldrazi deck early and I'll be honest, I'm not really enjoying where its going. Thinking of switching over to this as I love Red/black/white and I love tokens. How's the match up vs things like burn, grixis control, and the new Eldrazi deck? I see in the opening post that it mentions Plains walkers but I see nothing about the newest Sorin, is he just not worth it?
anywhere we can see the pro tour mardu decklists yet? Really curious whats being run as this is a wedge I've long wanted to use in modern but always end up going back to goyf ><
If Mardu top 32 will should have the deck list by the end of the day however if it doesn't do that well they will probably dump all the lists on Monday.
I bought into the Eldrazi deck early and I'll be honest, I'm not really enjoying where its going. Thinking of switching over to this as I love Red/black/white and I love tokens. How's the match up vs things like burn, grixis control, and the new Eldrazi deck? I see in the opening post that it mentions Plains walkers but I see nothing about the newest Sorin, is he just not worth it?
Burn is various levels of good depending on your set up, Lightning Helix and Soulfire Grand Master are really powerful mainboard answers to Burn. Grixis control plays out a lot like midrange vs midrange but Souls gives us an edge, so 55/45. As for Eldrazi; hard to say, I tested against the older BW version and the match-up felt okay but I haven't run into the Thought-Knot Seer, Matter Reshaper version yet.
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In play: Jund Death Shadow, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Stompy, Ponza
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
Unfortunately the first page is pretty outdated. The big draw to Mardu though, IMO, is that it's easily tuned to beat aggro or aggro/ combo decks like Burn, Affinity, and Infect while still having 50/50 or better mus vs most other fair decks. It's not amazing vs eldrazi but not awful, its sorta hard to say though since so many versions are around. Like all fair decks, its soft to Tron.
Sorin 3.0 is great in a tokens build, but can be very lackluster dropping him into an empty field. As far as late game drops go, new Gideon adds immediate pressure with pooping out allies or swinging in himself, AND sticks with the token theme. The only matchup I'd really rather have sorin is burn, and turn 4 is a little late to hope for stabilization anyway. Ajani V never really impressed me. More often than not hes a four mana helix, then he dies. So many decks go wide that his lock down is a bit lame. Lilly is an all-star, of course, but has an all-star price tag. Honorable mention goes to ob nixilis, who does every thing vraska ever dreamed of. He either immediately affects the field, or immediately replaces himself (card draw). Hate to flip him off of Bob though.
Abrupt decay matters a lot less, and we have plenty of strong creature removal.
For bob, we do have better lifegain (sfgm, helix, etc), which makes him a bit more appealing.
I think liliana is the biggest question if you're sticking to just white black and red (not splashing for goyf).
She is clearly a powerful card, but with both a shift in the meta, and the fact that we don't topdeck quite as well as gbx means she isn't completely core.
That being said I would run 3-4 or none.
As for lingering souls, I honestly think any list with more than 0 but less than 4 souls can be improve by upping the count. A small number of lists can get away with 0, but otherwise it feels solidly 4-of to me.
Mardu, as general strategy, has two main options as far as two-drops go.
We can play more aggressive creatures (sfgm, sculler, even things like guide/swiftspear), or we can just play more interaction (removal, discard, etc).
We are much more about the 3-drop or 4-drop slot than the 2-drop.
This means that manlands, and lands that etb tapped are better here than in a deck like abzan, where you want to curve out as much as possible.
The struggle here is that we don't have any good manlands. (vents is ok, but no one's happy playing it...).
I also do not consider abbot a 2-drop. Realistically, unless you're playing mishra's bauble or some similar spell, you aren't going to just blindly slam him t2, since even if you do hit a land, you can't play it. He's more of a 4-drop that plays nicer with bob.
I feel that playing mardu more like a control deck works better. You can play smaller creatures like lavamancer or sfgm that retain relevance throughout the game, you can play cards that grind/provide resources like bob, lili, or souls, and you can play stronger expensive creatures/walkers as wincons, such as butcher, sorins, or pnk. (among others). You also have burn to speed these clocks along.
As a closing bit, I've always disliked mentor/pyromancer type cards in this deck (as well as swiftspear/burn creatures) simply because I believe that this deck functions better slower. (Mardu burn is a fine deck, but its not midrange.)
As a general rule, abzan is more aggressive than jund, which is more aggressive than mardu which is more aggressive than sultai, as far as midrange strategies go.
These are just my own thoughts, but we really do have the potential to make games go really long and slow with all the slow value we can play.
I've been running Sculler in my 2-drop slot and I think it's very strong, especially in the early game but it's never a dead draw. Haven't wanted to swap it out for anything else yet.
Mentor and Pyromancer are at their best when you cast it in concert with a IoK or a bolt. Let the deck grind and have mentor and pyromancer turn your amazing one for ones into value. And if you ever stabilize with one out and a vault of archangel it's almost impossible to lose the game against a fair deck.
Other notes been testing Kalitas a bit and I like him, just not sure how much I value it compared to Olivia yet.
And congrats on the results guys. Sounds like the agro side of the meta has shown up and people are able to prey on that a bit.
I haven't hade the chance to playtest in a long while so I'm only brewing in theory for now. This is what I've got with so far. Any thoughts?
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Shambling Vent
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Graven Cairns
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Dark Confidant
3 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
PLANESWALKERS
3 Liliana of the Veil
INSTANTS
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
SORCERIES
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Celestial Purge
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Wear // Tear
1 Crackling Doom
1 Painful Truths
2 Crumble to Dust
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Olivia Voldaren
I would play it something like this:
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Marsh Flats
1x Windswept Heath (Budget)
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
1x Godless Shrine
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
4x Shambling Vent
Spells
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
3x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lingering Souls
2x Lightning Helix
2x Terminate
3x Path to Exile
1x Painful Truths
1x Crackling Doom
4x Abbot of Keral Keep
4x Dark Confidant
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Crackling Doom
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Crumble to Dust
1x Lightning Helix
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Wear // Tear
1x Olivia Voldaren
What do you think?
1 grim lavamancer
3 dark confidant
2 abbot of keral keep
2 brimaz, king of oreskos
1 olivia voldaren
4 myth realized
3 lingering souls
2 sorin, solemn visitor
Disruptions and removals [19]
3 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozilek
4 lightning bolt
3 path to exile
2 lightning helix
1 dismember
2 kolaghan's command
1 wrath of god
4 bloodstained mire
4 flooded strand (budget issues)
2 blackcleave cliffs
2 shambling vent
2 tectonic edge
1 mountain
1 swamp
2 plains
1 blood crypt
1 godless shrine
2 sacred foundry
1 watery grave (ub to get with f.strand)
Just an update on this list, I'm now 21-6 after 5-0ing a league. I think there's a lot to consider in mardu. Bolt+Discard+Path+Souls+Liliana is a really strong shell.
The issue comes in winning the game. I think it is definitely okay to put a strong synergistic combo in here. We need some form of card advantage and Dark Confidant, Faithless Looting, or Painful Truths needs to be in your deck.
I think another big strength could be manlands even a lavaclaw reaches could be what we want. Needle Spires is squishy but hits for 4. You really need to just out-resource them.
1 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
1 Smoldering Marsh
2 Shambling Vent
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Plains
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Non Creature Spells
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Terminate
2 Lightning Helix
4 Lingering Souls
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Painful Truths
1 Outpost Siege
3 Stony Silence
2 Crackling Doom
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Wear Tear
1 Rest in Peace
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Painful Truths
1 Lightning Helix
Round 1 vs Tron: 2-1
Yeah managed to beat tron, not the most useful win as it was Kuldotha Forgemaster Tron. Still a challenge as it had 2 Ugin's main and a third in the board, but he never drew them and I had paths for his blightsteels. The game I lost I had him at -5 for 5 turns with a Platinum angel out. Problem was I got sundering titan'd so I was stuck on two lands and no white for Path.
Board Plan
Out: IoK, Bolt, Helix
In: Stony Silence, Fulminator, Crumble to Dust, Crackling Doom, Wear/Tear, Painful Truths, Kalitas
Round 2 vs Merfolk: 1-2
Should have won this match miss played in game one by not spewing a path away on a lord for mana efficeny rather than terminating it when I knew about a Master of waves... Game three the fragility of the mana base reared it's ugly head and I got spreading sea's out of the match. The game I won was on the back of Kalitas, he made it almost impossible for the merfolk player to attack properly and put the game quickly out of reach.
Board Plan
Out: Painful Truths, Outpost Siege, 1 thoughtsieze, 2 more on the draw
In: Lightning Helix, Wear/Tear, Kalitas, on the draw Timely Reinforments
Round 3 vs Warp World: 1-2
I lost don't care at all had too much fun giggling as he killed me. Was an awesome match and deck.
Round 4 vs Noble Geist Zoo: 2-1
Kalitas was again a house. Turning removal into a three for one when you have it plus a pyromancer is just beyond disgusting. Lost a game to a Geist of St. Traft that had three noble heirach's exalting his holiness. Attacking for 9 on turn three is pretty strong. Anyway it played like a normal game against agro, had too much removal and cards that key off of it and ran away with the game. It helped that my opponent at one point chose to bolt a Dark Confidant when I had a Young Pryomancer on board but I think I would have won either way as I also had a Kalitas.
Board plan
Out: Thoughtsieze, Painful Truths, Outpost Siege
In: Kalitas, Timely Reinformences, Helix, Zealous Persecution
Overall really pleased with the deck. I need to play tighter as I think all but two of my games were winnable. But I didn't and the deck doesn't give you the free wins that other decks do, you have to slog them all out.
Re: Myth Realized, I was playing it for a while but was never blown away by it. I think it would be better in a devler style deck than it is here. It isn't bad but I never wanted it over a pyromancer or mentor. Growing wide is so important to me, allows gummed up board states that give me a chance to grind my way out.
http://www.twitch.tv/magic
Ben Stark @ PT Oath playing Mardu Midrange! Looks like an Abbot / Confidant list.
It looks like it might have been the team deck as there are 9 people on Mardu this weekend. Hopefully we get to see some decklists tomorrow.
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Burn is various levels of good depending on your set up, Lightning Helix and Soulfire Grand Master are really powerful mainboard answers to Burn. Grixis control plays out a lot like midrange vs midrange but Souls gives us an edge, so 55/45. As for Eldrazi; hard to say, I tested against the older BW version and the match-up felt okay but I haven't run into the Thought-Knot Seer, Matter Reshaper version yet.
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
@ Rakthen
Sorin 3.0 is great in a tokens build, but can be very lackluster dropping him into an empty field. As far as late game drops go, new Gideon adds immediate pressure with pooping out allies or swinging in himself, AND sticks with the token theme. The only matchup I'd really rather have sorin is burn, and turn 4 is a little late to hope for stabilization anyway. Ajani V never really impressed me. More often than not hes a four mana helix, then he dies. So many decks go wide that his lock down is a bit lame. Lilly is an all-star, of course, but has an all-star price tag. Honorable mention goes to ob nixilis, who does every thing vraska ever dreamed of. He either immediately affects the field, or immediately replaces himself (card draw). Hate to flip him off of Bob though.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/ptogw/round-7-frank-karsten-vs-ben-stark-2016-02-05