The first non-fetchland spoiler I've seen that may have an impact on this deck. It's immune to Bolt, can brawl with Restoration Angel and most Tarmogoyfs, protects itself, and has haste when you draw it late. The first thing to compare it to is Geist of Saint Traft. Geist does a better job of protecting itself and has a higher damage output without any additional work, but it takes a bit more work to keep attacking with Geist and Geist really only has one mode: attack, while Knuckleblade can play D when warranted. 3 mana at sorcery speed is a ton though and while the ability to give it haste helps, it's still pretty slow vs. the combo/tron decks. I'm somewhat optimistic that the card is (fringe) modern playable, but I'm skeptical that this will happen in a Delver shell. What are your thoughts?
Tarmogoyf is usually 4/5 for two mana and has only one colored mana symbol in its casting cost. It doesn't dodge Decay either because you can't use its abilities when your opponemt still has cards in hand. Abilities are waaay to expensive for modern and most of the time returning a creature to your hand is almost as bad as getting it straight destroyed. If it would be 4/5 and abilities would cost one mana less then maybe.
Tarmogoyf is usually 4/5 for two mana and has only one colored mana symbol in its casting cost. It doesn't dodge Decay either because you can't use its abilities when your opponemt still has cards in hand. Abilities are waaay to expensive for modern and most of the time returning a creature to your hand is almost as bad as getting it straight destroyed. If it would be 4/5 and abilities would cost one mana less then maybe.
I definitely don't see this replacing Goyf, but supplementing it if anything. Why can't you use the abilities when you opponent still has cards in their hand? Bouncing in response to Decay when they have cards in hand means, what, they spend another card killing it, netting you a 2-1? I don't understand what you're getting at. The decks you'll be using the unsummon ability against will tend to be slower (Jund/Junk/UWR) and you can give it haste on the way back down anyway, so the tempo loss isn't that bad.
Yeah, the turn he comes into play he's pretty vulnerable, but you can easily play your other threats first to bait out removal and maybe get them stuck with bolts in hand. Sure, at 6 mana there are better options, but you can't play any of them for 3 mana when you need to, and you will need to a lot. Compared to Clique, he's good vs different decks. I don't like Clique vs. Jund since the ability often doesn't matter and Clique just dies to Bolt anyway. Clique is at its best vs Twin I think, where admittedly Knuckleblade looks pretty mopey. (Though I don't really like Clique much there anyway since often it just dies to Bolt and Electrolyze). If Knuckleblade is worth running, it will be on the strength of it'll be because of how good it is against BGx decks.
The mana intensiveness is tough though. He seems better suited to something like RUG Midrange. Goyf, Knuckleblade, Huntmaster, Snapcaster, Cryptic, etc. Probably a Clique or two as well. Of course, you still have major problems killing big threats like Goyf, so it's tough to justify this sort deck. Maybe Tarmotwin can run a couple? Huntmaster is probably just better in that spot for them.
But as the creature suite is quite tight already assuming you are playing Delver what would Knuckleblade replace? We have our beaters in form of Delver and Tarmogoyf and card advantage + utility in Snapcaster Mage / Young Pyromancer / Vendilion Clique and I can't see Knuckleblade taking any slots from them. Knuckleblade just seems to be almost 'maybe playable' but its abilities just cost too much for the effect they make.
As you mentioned that Huntmaster does almost all the same but creates vard advantage at the same time in form of a token and possible removal plus also a tiny lifegain.
But as the creature suite is quite tight already assuming you are playing Delver what would Knuckleblade replace? We have our beaters in form of Delver and Tarmogoyf and card advantage + utility in Snapcaster Mage / Young Pyromancer / Vendilion Clique and I can't see Knuckleblade taking any slots from them. Knuckleblade just seems to be almost 'maybe playable' but its abilities just cost too much for the effect they make.
As you mentioned that Huntmaster does almost all the same but creates vard advantage at the same time in form of a token and possible removal plus also a tiny lifegain.
He'd go in the Young Pyromancer/Vendillion Clique/Scavenging Ooze spot, if anywhere. YP is the best of these IMO, but it's still bad against the sort of cards that are aready fantastic against us - sweepers and Electrolyze for example. I don't hink Huntmaster does almost the same thing - he does to Bolt and can't brawl with Goyf. But in terms of power level, it's tough to call Knuckleblade better and it's clear we don't want Huntmaster MD, so that makes Knuckleblade questionable.
• Target creature you control gets +1/+1 until end of turn. That creature fights target creature you don't control.
• Counter target spell unless its controller pays 3.
• Creatures with power 3 or less can't block this turn.
I was hoping for more, but let's see what we've got. 1) An expensive Mana Leak. At 3 mana, Mana Leak is obviously much worse but that's ok as long as the other modes are worthwhile. 2) Expensive Pit Fight that also temporarily pumps your guy. At +1/+1 this will rarely save one of your guys from a removal spell, so it's mostly just a Pit Fight. It does allow you to kill 4+ toughness creatures in a card that isn't dead against half the field (cough cough Flame Slash cough), but that assumes you have a Tarmogoyf in play or maybe a large Scavenging Ooze or flipped Huntmaster, but both of those are a bit of a reach. 3) Falter for small creatures. This mode basically doesn't matter for evaluating the card, though you will occasionally kill a Pod or Tokens opponent from a spot they felt safe.
Imagine this was a Mana Leak / 5 damage instant speed Flame Slash split card for RUG for a moment. I would probably try it as a 1 of since it kills Tarmogoyf, Restoration Angel and other large creatures, which is one of the tougher issues the deck can have, and when this mode isn't relevant we still have a Mana Leak. I don't know if it would be good enough, but it's at least interesting because it seems to solve one problem (larger creatures) without exacerbating another (dead cards vs combo / tron).
Now we don't have that card, instead we get a +1/+1 and Pit Fight plus a mostly useless 3rd mode (I'm annoyed that the red mode doesn't deal damage to creatures and/or players, but I guess they can't have the red mode on every part-red charm deal damage). The Pit Fight mode seems pretty bad without changing the creature base since only Tarmogoyf will brawl with any reasonable sized creature, and even if your creatures are bigger you still have to deal with the potential to get blown out by a removal spell. Maybe cutting the Young Pyromancers for a 2/2 split of Scavenging Ooze and Savage Knuckleblade would make that mode worthwhile, but altering the creature base like that probably isn't worth playing Temur Charm as a 1-2 of. I'll probably try this idea just to get a feel for both Charm and Knuckleblade, but I'm not expecting much.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I'm running Mandrills as a 2-of. Originally had a pair of Thought Scour but after some testing I decided the graveyard fills quickly enough without them. I know people will have a few initial concerns about Hooting Mandrills, so to demonstrate my enormous confidence in the ape, I'll address each of them here. This 4/4 is the future of RUG Delver.
We've often wished Nimble Mongoose were legal in Modern. Why? It doesn't even come online until you have 7 cards in the graveyard! What is that, turn 3? 4? 5? We don't care. It would shine here. RUG Delver usually has enough cards in the grave by turn 3, and many times doesn't even cast a threat until then and still goes on to win. But what else makes Mongoose so good? Oh yeah, it survives Lightning Bolt. So does Mandrills. But the ape eats Path! So does Tarmogoyf, and in this deck, the two play exactly the same role. Indulge me:
We can agree that Tarmogoyf is generally a 4/5 for 1G. That's 4 power and a bolt-proof body for a 2-mana investment. This guy gives you the same thing, but he costs 1 if you need him to. (Or 3. Or 4. Or 5. Or 6.) It's been said many times about Goyf in RUG decks that you don't just slam him turn 2, you wait until he's big enough to survive Lightning Bolt. You play the same waiting game with Mandrills.
Same application. Same results. Mandrills aren't extra Delvers, they're Goyfs. Given this revelation, the question really becomes, "do I want more than four Tarmogoyfs?" Toughie.
As for the nonbo with our favorite beater, in the rare cases that I have both, here's my line of play:
1) Cast Tarmogoyf.
2) Beat face until Tarmogoyf is removed.
3) Cast Hooting Mandrills.
4) Beat face until Hooting Mandrills is removed.
Notice anything? This is RUG Delver's plan A anyway: keep opponents off their game while riding one cheap threat to victory. You just have to remember to correctly sequence threats (Goyf -> Mandrills). We're not a deck that overcommits to the board; a single fatty will do. Yes, Tarmogoyf is better. That's why we run Mandrills as extra Goyfs and not the other way around. But the ape definitely has a home here. (Some benefits the ape has over Goyf, though: you can cast it for 1 mana, it ignores Rest in Peace effects, it tramples, and it can't get hit by Inquisition of Kozilek/Abrupt Decay.) If you're still not sold on Mandrills x Goyf, you must not play Legacy. I'll explain:
Many of you probably know of a longtime Legacy tempo deck called Team America. The deck backs up efficient beaters - 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, and 2 Tombstalker - with soft disruption (sound familiar?) (here's an article from this year on the deck). We too run Delver and Goyf and rely on them to close out games as we cast Spell Pierce, so let's briefly compare Hooting Mandrills to Tombstalker.
Hooting Mandrills
Pros:
- Costs two less
- Costs one colored mana less
Cons:
- Has -1/-1
- Trades Flying for Trample
(Quick aside - Flying and Trample can each be better than the other in certain circumstances. In a field full of Signal Pest and Lingering Souls, I'd actually rather have Trample; against enemy Goyfs, flying.) I'm tempted to say Hooting Mandrills is even better than the demon, and even if Tombstalker costed 6GG and not 6BB, I'd rather have the monkeys in this deck. Getting GG can prove tough with a single basic Forest.
For those interested, here's my current list. The Foothills are there to help with Delve, but I may want Flooded Strand in their place to find Island.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Hello boys and girls. Here is my little tournament report from yesterday's modern evening at local game shop
I decided to play RUG Delver instead of classic UR because I am tired to get outraced by better threats and getting my creatures blown out very easily. Adding Tarmogoyf to the UR shell should make it a bit easier.
I won the dice and opened the game with Delver of Secrets. My opponent started with Goblin Guide which did not reveal me a land. My Delver did not flip but I had Spell Snare for his next turn Searing Blaze. I took pretty much pain for his shocks but was unable to find black mana for his Bumps. My resolved Tarmogoyf started beating him until he was at three and then Bolted him for the win.
Game two wasn't so easy as the first one since he got smooth mana running. His turn one Goblin Guide did show Batterskull from top of the deck but I was never able to cast it since you can't tap out versus a Burn at 6 life during your turn.
Game three was same as game two but I had Batterskull in my starting hand this time. I made also a terrible mistake by target my own Snapcaster Mage with Vapor Snag in response to his Searing Blaze because I thought Searing Blade says "~ deals 3 damage to target creature and 3 damage to its controller" but of course it targets both creature and a player Searing Blaze was a full-art card so I decided fast in my head not to call judge for telling me the correct wording of it but casted Vapor Snag. This didn't effect game too much because it was only a Snapcaster Mage and I lost only one extra life. He did finish the game with hand of Lightning Bolt, graveyard with two Bumps and six lands (I was at four).
Round 2 vs UWR Control 0 - 2
I won the dice and opened game with Serum Visions. Next turn I played Pyromancer which got Bolted immediately. Tarmogoy got pathed turn later and then it was only my lands vs his Vendilion Clique and Colonnade.
Game two was a bit grindy but not long. I played first turn Delver which did not flip in three turns. After he got rid of my Delver I had two Tarmogoyfs and casted Gitaxian Probe to see hand of double Lightning Bolt, Batterskull, Remand and an Electrolyze. He top decked Path and got rid of my other Tarmogoyf and resolved a Batterskull. I knew that I have Blood Moon on top of my deck since I placed it there with Visions. I played Blood Moon next turn and my other Goyf got double bolted. I had three lands in hand, no idea what is on top of my deck, Snapcaster and Blood Moon in play. My opponent has five non-basic lands, Mountain, Island and Batterskull. This is what happened next. I top deck another Blood Moon (and three lands after that) and my opponent top decks Keranos end of story.
I started both games with four lands in starting hand and when games ended I had more lands in play than my opposing 'control player'.
Round 3 vs RUG Twin 0 - 2
He played more Tarmogoyfs in game one than I did and eventually combo killed me since he had more counterspells than me Same happened again; at turn nine or ten I had eight lands in play.
Game two ended by we both in top deck mode as my opponent top decked Keranos immediately and I top decked shock lands and fetches.
Round 4 vs BW Tokens 1 - 2
Lost game one to resolved bombs (Intangible Virtue and Elspeth).He did Inquisition me turn one to take my Tarmogoyf and then I was out of threats. Before he casted Virtue he Thoughtseized my only counter and it was game. Elspeth was just win more in this game.
In game two I got my engine going and he had just no chance. Couple of Tarmogoyfs, couple of Bolts and a Grim Lavaman did their job very fast and effectively.
Game two I mulliganed down to five. I got double Delver at turn two but six turns later my Delvers were still 1/1, I was stuck with two Islands and a Steam Vents and he beated me with two Lingerin Souls tokens with Virtue on the table as he was able to cast it again with pre-protecting it with Inquisition.
0 - 4 is always a pleasure I am not very satisfied to the deck and since I don't own Cryptic Commands I can't use my flooding mana effectively. My local game shop doubled the price of Modern events week before the summer and stopped having Legacy tournaments. It has done it job pretty well if the goal was to make 3/4 of the meta decks straight tier one netdecks. I don't want to play those shame 'Tier 1 decks' because they are boring and shame in my opinion but at the same time impossible to beat with lower tier decks. I don't either want to pay the insane event attend price for getting stomped by these decks so I don't know how many options I have if I want to play this format any longer.
Thank you for your time and keep up the good work!
I admit it didn't even occur to me to try Hooting Mandrills in the deck - definitely worth discussing and trying. I'm not sure it's better than Savage Knuckleblade though (not necessarily because I'm advocating the Knucks, but just as a point of comparison). How often will Mandrills cost 2 mana on turn 2? This requires 2 fetches and 2 spells, one of which has to be a Gitaxian Probe, or multiple probes. It seems pretty unlikely - especially in your list with only 1 probe. Most often Mandrills will cost 2-3 mana on turn 3+. Sure, you'll be able to cast it for 1 in the late game, but you often won't want to in order to protect future Goyfs and Snapcaster targets. Knuckleblade has tougher colored requirements, but it's not too difficult to have the mana to cast him on turn 3. Once in play, Mandrills is a 4/4 trampler and Knuckleblade is a 4/4 with a slew of useful abilities if you get to untap or if it's the late game, and very often Knucks just has haste. The trample is nice, though I do think flying is better - trample is no consolation when they have Tarmogoyf or a pile of persist creatures back to block. On the other hand, Knuckleblade 1) protects himself (if you get to untap) and 2) has haste in the mid-late game. The haste is particularly important when trying to put away Tron or Combo before they overpower you, or to continue to nickel and dime the opponent in grindy matchups like Jund or UWR where you know they have the capability to deal with each of your threats, but as long as each one gets an attack or two you can bolt them out. The lack of evasion is annoying though.
For my money, Knucks looks like the better card for RUG. Especially in a slower Shackles shell like you're running - you're much more likely to be able to cast Knucks with mana to protect him. Now does that mean I think Mandrills is bad or that Knucks is good? Eh, I don't know. But I'll definitely be testing Knucks.
Well, the whole point of Mandrills isn't to rush it out T2 with great consistency. That's also not the point of Tarmogoyf. The two do the same thing here. You're also forgetting that he costs what you need him to, not 1G.
Ape is the way to go, even if it takes other RUG lovers a few months to figure out. I'm sure of it and I've stated my case! Interested in hearing what the rest of you think. And I won't tell you what not to test but IMO Knuckleblade blows.
The new legend 5-drop isn't bad either and could find its way into sideboards. It's insane against control - a 6/6 (that's TWO flipped Delvers) Flash for 5 that you can cast off Moon (comparing favorably here to Thrun) that makes your Goyfs uncounterable AND gives them trample? Wouldn't be surprised if he sees some play.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I could easily see the monkeys seeing play here but delve as an ability pretty much makes you cap off at 2 copies of a spell but in a deck that wants goyf and snapcaster to be at max efficiency, I think id probably roll with just one copy if it works out in testing. It's about the closest thing to goyf #5 that we have, even more so than Scooze IMO.
That being said, I think your underestimating savage knuckleblade severely. He does fit RUG midrange better than this deck, but there are many stages of the game where I would rather topdeck the knucks instead of goyf.
Yeah, I guess I can see Knuckleblade working. Didn't mean to be so harsh, I just think Mandrills is leagues better.
They're actually having a pretty interesting discussion about the ape over on mtgthesource's Canadian Thresh thread. They're thinking about cutting Mongoose for it.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Yeah, I guess I can see Knuckleblade working. Didn't mean to be so harsh, I just think Mandrills is leagues better.
They're actually having a pretty interesting discussion about the ape over on mtgthesource's Canadian Thresh thread. They're thinking about cutting Mongoose for it.
Oh, immune to Abrupt Decay is something interesting that I missed (mentioned in that thread)
I dont think you were harsh, but a card so obviously above the curve at the very least should be tested. At the same time three drops(and up) really havnt been playable here without flash or named shackles so I could see being tapped out on turn three or four being a line of play that you really dont want to take to stick your 4/4. And while he is weak to abrupt decay, like pretty much everything, he is intriguingly powerful against Lilliana, being one of the cheapest creatures that can take her out at 4 loyalty the turn it comes into play. If you untap with the knuckleblade, they pretty much cannot cast lilliana with it on the board without blockers because you can bounce him in response to the edict trigger and bash her with haste the following turn to come out of it at zero cards lost to handle the planewalker. That sounds pretty mana intensive, but in reality you wont be actually doing any of that because the threat of it alone will keep the Lilli's stuck in hand.
Actually, Jund as a strategy essentially wants both players to be out of cards and then wins with superior topdecks due to sheer card power level. Jund has so much removal that the games are almost guaranteed to go long, and you will have plenty of chances to draw and play lands meaning that when you eventually topdeck a knuckleblade, not can it have an instant impact and do crazy things like come from behind with a lilli on the field, you can hit the point in the game where you are able to hold three mana for his bounce ability at all times, and it seems very hard to lose against one of our toughest matchups if they arnt already holding multiple answers. You won't even have to activate it because nobody is going to want to pitch removal spells just to have him come back down with haste the following turn. Not even their beloved decay can save them from the knuckleblades inevitability.
With all that being said, I actually think adding the first Monkey is probably better than the first knuckleblade, not sure by how much though.
Yeah, I love that guy in UR versions, but RUG just doesn't consistently play 2 Instants/Sorceries on its own turn. Maybe in a list with Pyromancer, but it gets hard to fit Snapcaster if you splash green. You'd also definitely want Mandrills there since the grave would fill up so fast.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
The first non-fetchland spoiler I've seen that may have an impact on this deck. It's immune to Bolt, can brawl with Restoration Angel and most Tarmogoyfs, protects itself, and has haste when you draw it late. The first thing to compare it to is Geist of Saint Traft. Geist does a better job of protecting itself and has a higher damage output without any additional work, but it takes a bit more work to keep attacking with Geist and Geist really only has one mode: attack, while Knuckleblade can play D when warranted. 3 mana at sorcery speed is a ton though and while the ability to give it haste helps, it's still pretty slow vs. the combo/tron decks. I'm somewhat optimistic that the card is (fringe) modern playable, but I'm skeptical that this will happen in a Delver shell. What are your thoughts?
Modern
WUBRG
I definitely don't see this replacing Goyf, but supplementing it if anything. Why can't you use the abilities when you opponent still has cards in their hand? Bouncing in response to Decay when they have cards in hand means, what, they spend another card killing it, netting you a 2-1? I don't understand what you're getting at. The decks you'll be using the unsummon ability against will tend to be slower (Jund/Junk/UWR) and you can give it haste on the way back down anyway, so the tempo loss isn't that bad.
The mana intensiveness is tough though. He seems better suited to something like RUG Midrange. Goyf, Knuckleblade, Huntmaster, Snapcaster, Cryptic, etc. Probably a Clique or two as well. Of course, you still have major problems killing big threats like Goyf, so it's tough to justify this sort deck. Maybe Tarmotwin can run a couple? Huntmaster is probably just better in that spot for them.
As you mentioned that Huntmaster does almost all the same but creates vard advantage at the same time in form of a token and possible removal plus also a tiny lifegain.
Modern
WUBRG
He'd go in the Young Pyromancer/Vendillion Clique/Scavenging Ooze spot, if anywhere. YP is the best of these IMO, but it's still bad against the sort of cards that are aready fantastic against us - sweepers and Electrolyze for example. I don't hink Huntmaster does almost the same thing - he does to Bolt and can't brawl with Goyf. But in terms of power level, it's tough to call Knuckleblade better and it's clear we don't want Huntmaster MD, so that makes Knuckleblade questionable.
I was hoping for more, but let's see what we've got. 1) An expensive Mana Leak. At 3 mana, Mana Leak is obviously much worse but that's ok as long as the other modes are worthwhile. 2) Expensive Pit Fight that also temporarily pumps your guy. At +1/+1 this will rarely save one of your guys from a removal spell, so it's mostly just a Pit Fight. It does allow you to kill 4+ toughness creatures in a card that isn't dead against half the field (cough cough Flame Slash cough), but that assumes you have a Tarmogoyf in play or maybe a large Scavenging Ooze or flipped Huntmaster, but both of those are a bit of a reach. 3) Falter for small creatures. This mode basically doesn't matter for evaluating the card, though you will occasionally kill a Pod or Tokens opponent from a spot they felt safe.
Imagine this was a Mana Leak / 5 damage instant speed Flame Slash split card for RUG for a moment. I would probably try it as a 1 of since it kills Tarmogoyf, Restoration Angel and other large creatures, which is one of the tougher issues the deck can have, and when this mode isn't relevant we still have a Mana Leak. I don't know if it would be good enough, but it's at least interesting because it seems to solve one problem (larger creatures) without exacerbating another (dead cards vs combo / tron).
Now we don't have that card, instead we get a +1/+1 and Pit Fight plus a mostly useless 3rd mode (I'm annoyed that the red mode doesn't deal damage to creatures and/or players, but I guess they can't have the red mode on every part-red charm deal damage). The Pit Fight mode seems pretty bad without changing the creature base since only Tarmogoyf will brawl with any reasonable sized creature, and even if your creatures are bigger you still have to deal with the potential to get blown out by a removal spell. Maybe cutting the Young Pyromancers for a 2/2 split of Scavenging Ooze and Savage Knuckleblade would make that mode worthwhile, but altering the creature base like that probably isn't worth playing Temur Charm as a 1-2 of. I'll probably try this idea just to get a feel for both Charm and Knuckleblade, but I'm not expecting much.
Hooting Mandrills 5G
Creature - Ape
Delve
Trample
4/4
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
We've often wished Nimble Mongoose were legal in Modern. Why? It doesn't even come online until you have 7 cards in the graveyard! What is that, turn 3? 4? 5? We don't care. It would shine here. RUG Delver usually has enough cards in the grave by turn 3, and many times doesn't even cast a threat until then and still goes on to win. But what else makes Mongoose so good? Oh yeah, it survives Lightning Bolt. So does Mandrills. But the ape eats Path! So does Tarmogoyf, and in this deck, the two play exactly the same role. Indulge me:
We can agree that Tarmogoyf is generally a 4/5 for 1G. That's 4 power and a bolt-proof body for a 2-mana investment. This guy gives you the same thing, but he costs 1 if you need him to. (Or 3. Or 4. Or 5. Or 6.) It's been said many times about Goyf in RUG decks that you don't just slam him turn 2, you wait until he's big enough to survive Lightning Bolt. You play the same waiting game with Mandrills.
Compare these fairly common openings:
A) T1 Gitaxian Probe, fetch, Serum Visions, pass. T2 fetch, Tarmogoyf.
B) T1 Gitaxian Probe, fetch, Serum Visions, pass. T2 fetch, Hooting Mandrills.
Same application. Same results. Mandrills aren't extra Delvers, they're Goyfs. Given this revelation, the question really becomes, "do I want more than four Tarmogoyfs?" Toughie.
As for the nonbo with our favorite beater, in the rare cases that I have both, here's my line of play:
1) Cast Tarmogoyf.
2) Beat face until Tarmogoyf is removed.
3) Cast Hooting Mandrills.
4) Beat face until Hooting Mandrills is removed.
Notice anything? This is RUG Delver's plan A anyway: keep opponents off their game while riding one cheap threat to victory. You just have to remember to correctly sequence threats (Goyf -> Mandrills). We're not a deck that overcommits to the board; a single fatty will do. Yes, Tarmogoyf is better. That's why we run Mandrills as extra Goyfs and not the other way around. But the ape definitely has a home here. (Some benefits the ape has over Goyf, though: you can cast it for 1 mana, it ignores Rest in Peace effects, it tramples, and it can't get hit by Inquisition of Kozilek/Abrupt Decay.) If you're still not sold on Mandrills x Goyf, you must not play Legacy. I'll explain:
Many of you probably know of a longtime Legacy tempo deck called Team America. The deck backs up efficient beaters - 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, and 2 Tombstalker - with soft disruption (sound familiar?) (here's an article from this year on the deck). We too run Delver and Goyf and rely on them to close out games as we cast Spell Pierce, so let's briefly compare Hooting Mandrills to Tombstalker.
Hooting Mandrills
Pros:
- Costs two less
- Costs one colored mana less
Cons:
- Has -1/-1
- Trades Flying for Trample
(Quick aside - Flying and Trample can each be better than the other in certain circumstances. In a field full of Signal Pest and Lingering Souls, I'd actually rather have Trample; against enemy Goyfs, flying.) I'm tempted to say Hooting Mandrills is even better than the demon, and even if Tombstalker costed 6GG and not 6BB, I'd rather have the monkeys in this deck. Getting GG can prove tough with a single basic Forest.
For those interested, here's my current list. The Foothills are there to help with Delve, but I may want Flooded Strand in their place to find Island.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hooting Mandrills
1 Vendilion Clique
Other permanents (2)
2 Vedalken Shackles
Instants (17)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Mana Leak
2 Remand
1 Deprive
2 Electrolyze
2 Cryptic Command
4 Serum Visions
1 Gitaxian Probe
Land (21)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
5 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Negate
1 Combust
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Spellskite
2 Blood Moon
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Counterflux
1 Dismember
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Keranos, God of Storms
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I decided to play RUG Delver instead of classic UR because I am tired to get outraced by better threats and getting my creatures blown out very easily. Adding Tarmogoyf to the UR shell should make it a bit easier.
The list first.
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
2 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Grounds
5 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
Creatures (16)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Vapor Snag
3 Remand
2 Deprive
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
Sorceries (7)
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Blood Moon
2 Counterflux
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Combust
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Spellskite
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Batterskull
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Round 1 vs BWR Burn 1 - 2
I won the dice and opened the game with Delver of Secrets. My opponent started with Goblin Guide which did not reveal me a land. My Delver did not flip but I had Spell Snare for his next turn Searing Blaze. I took pretty much pain for his shocks but was unable to find black mana for his Bumps. My resolved Tarmogoyf started beating him until he was at three and then Bolted him for the win.
Game two wasn't so easy as the first one since he got smooth mana running. His turn one Goblin Guide did show Batterskull from top of the deck but I was never able to cast it since you can't tap out versus a Burn at 6 life during your turn.
Game three was same as game two but I had Batterskull in my starting hand this time. I made also a terrible mistake by target my own Snapcaster Mage with Vapor Snag in response to his Searing Blaze because I thought Searing Blade says "~ deals 3 damage to target creature and 3 damage to its controller" but of course it targets both creature and a player Searing Blaze was a full-art card so I decided fast in my head not to call judge for telling me the correct wording of it but casted Vapor Snag. This didn't effect game too much because it was only a Snapcaster Mage and I lost only one extra life. He did finish the game with hand of Lightning Bolt, graveyard with two Bumps and six lands (I was at four).
Round 2 vs UWR Control 0 - 2
I won the dice and opened game with Serum Visions. Next turn I played Pyromancer which got Bolted immediately. Tarmogoy got pathed turn later and then it was only my lands vs his Vendilion Clique and Colonnade.
Game two was a bit grindy but not long. I played first turn Delver which did not flip in three turns. After he got rid of my Delver I had two Tarmogoyfs and casted Gitaxian Probe to see hand of double Lightning Bolt, Batterskull, Remand and an Electrolyze. He top decked Path and got rid of my other Tarmogoyf and resolved a Batterskull. I knew that I have Blood Moon on top of my deck since I placed it there with Visions. I played Blood Moon next turn and my other Goyf got double bolted. I had three lands in hand, no idea what is on top of my deck, Snapcaster and Blood Moon in play. My opponent has five non-basic lands, Mountain, Island and Batterskull. This is what happened next. I top deck another Blood Moon (and three lands after that) and my opponent top decks Keranos end of story.
I started both games with four lands in starting hand and when games ended I had more lands in play than my opposing 'control player'.
Round 3 vs RUG Twin 0 - 2
He played more Tarmogoyfs in game one than I did and eventually combo killed me since he had more counterspells than me Same happened again; at turn nine or ten I had eight lands in play.
Game two ended by we both in top deck mode as my opponent top decked Keranos immediately and I top decked shock lands and fetches.
Round 4 vs BW Tokens 1 - 2
Lost game one to resolved bombs (Intangible Virtue and Elspeth).He did Inquisition me turn one to take my Tarmogoyf and then I was out of threats. Before he casted Virtue he Thoughtseized my only counter and it was game. Elspeth was just win more in this game.
In game two I got my engine going and he had just no chance. Couple of Tarmogoyfs, couple of Bolts and a Grim Lavaman did their job very fast and effectively.
Game two I mulliganed down to five. I got double Delver at turn two but six turns later my Delvers were still 1/1, I was stuck with two Islands and a Steam Vents and he beated me with two Lingerin Souls tokens with Virtue on the table as he was able to cast it again with pre-protecting it with Inquisition.
0 - 4 is always a pleasure I am not very satisfied to the deck and since I don't own Cryptic Commands I can't use my flooding mana effectively. My local game shop doubled the price of Modern events week before the summer and stopped having Legacy tournaments. It has done it job pretty well if the goal was to make 3/4 of the meta decks straight tier one netdecks. I don't want to play those shame 'Tier 1 decks' because they are boring and shame in my opinion but at the same time impossible to beat with lower tier decks. I don't either want to pay the insane event attend price for getting stomped by these decks so I don't know how many options I have if I want to play this format any longer.
Thank you for your time and keep up the good work!
Modern
WUBRG
I admit it didn't even occur to me to try Hooting Mandrills in the deck - definitely worth discussing and trying. I'm not sure it's better than Savage Knuckleblade though (not necessarily because I'm advocating the Knucks, but just as a point of comparison). How often will Mandrills cost 2 mana on turn 2? This requires 2 fetches and 2 spells, one of which has to be a Gitaxian Probe, or multiple probes. It seems pretty unlikely - especially in your list with only 1 probe. Most often Mandrills will cost 2-3 mana on turn 3+. Sure, you'll be able to cast it for 1 in the late game, but you often won't want to in order to protect future Goyfs and Snapcaster targets. Knuckleblade has tougher colored requirements, but it's not too difficult to have the mana to cast him on turn 3. Once in play, Mandrills is a 4/4 trampler and Knuckleblade is a 4/4 with a slew of useful abilities if you get to untap or if it's the late game, and very often Knucks just has haste. The trample is nice, though I do think flying is better - trample is no consolation when they have Tarmogoyf or a pile of persist creatures back to block. On the other hand, Knuckleblade 1) protects himself (if you get to untap) and 2) has haste in the mid-late game. The haste is particularly important when trying to put away Tron or Combo before they overpower you, or to continue to nickel and dime the opponent in grindy matchups like Jund or UWR where you know they have the capability to deal with each of your threats, but as long as each one gets an attack or two you can bolt them out. The lack of evasion is annoying though.
For my money, Knucks looks like the better card for RUG. Especially in a slower Shackles shell like you're running - you're much more likely to be able to cast Knucks with mana to protect him. Now does that mean I think Mandrills is bad or that Knucks is good? Eh, I don't know. But I'll definitely be testing Knucks.
Ape is the way to go, even if it takes other RUG lovers a few months to figure out. I'm sure of it and I've stated my case! Interested in hearing what the rest of you think. And I won't tell you what not to test but IMO Knuckleblade blows.
The new legend 5-drop isn't bad either and could find its way into sideboards. It's insane against control - a 6/6 (that's TWO flipped Delvers) Flash for 5 that you can cast off Moon (comparing favorably here to Thrun) that makes your Goyfs uncounterable AND gives them trample? Wouldn't be surprised if he sees some play.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
That being said, I think your underestimating savage knuckleblade severely. He does fit RUG midrange better than this deck, but there are many stages of the game where I would rather topdeck the knucks instead of goyf.
Still not sold on Hooting Mandrills but I will let others test it. It just seems like a nonbo with a lot of our guys.
They're actually having a pretty interesting discussion about the ape over on mtgthesource's Canadian Thresh thread. They're thinking about cutting Mongoose for it.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Oh, immune to Abrupt Decay is something interesting that I missed (mentioned in that thread)
Actually, Jund as a strategy essentially wants both players to be out of cards and then wins with superior topdecks due to sheer card power level. Jund has so much removal that the games are almost guaranteed to go long, and you will have plenty of chances to draw and play lands meaning that when you eventually topdeck a knuckleblade, not can it have an instant impact and do crazy things like come from behind with a lilli on the field, you can hit the point in the game where you are able to hold three mana for his bounce ability at all times, and it seems very hard to lose against one of our toughest matchups if they arnt already holding multiple answers. You won't even have to activate it because nobody is going to want to pitch removal spells just to have him come back down with haste the following turn. Not even their beloved decay can save them from the knuckleblades inevitability.
With all that being said, I actually think adding the first Monkey is probably better than the first knuckleblade, not sure by how much though.
Yeah, I love that guy in UR versions, but RUG just doesn't consistently play 2 Instants/Sorceries on its own turn. Maybe in a list with Pyromancer, but it gets hard to fit Snapcaster if you splash green. You'd also definitely want Mandrills there since the grave would fill up so fast.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy