I think this is a very reasonable line of thought. If you don't have the hate in your opening hand it often won't be enough, and this deck can't really afford to jam 3-4 pieces like some decks do. (If only we had nihil spellbomb..)
Dredge isn't going to be good unless you really dedicate a lot of slots so shoring up other matchups could be worthwhile.
Dredge is a weird deck. If i did play grave hate, i would likely play tormod's crypt. I have a fairly high win percentage vs everything but dredge. It's kind of a beating. I guess surgical seems reasonable too. I just don't want to be tempted to bring it in when i shouldn't haha
Now the question is: does Jace belong to our deck (I definetly think so)? How many copies? Main or side?
I'd think at least a couple of copies in side could help against current builds of many midrange and control decks.
Could it enter main deck? If so how can we modify the deck? Should we maybe go up to 18 lands?
Could he be a menace for us? Which tools can we use to fight him?
I'm not good at building decks from scratch, I prefer tinker existent decks. That's why I'm asking all those questions. I need your opinions
What do you think?
I don't think Bloodbraid is for us. That's a pity since we have the first temur unban ever
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
I don't think I'd run Jace in the main. I'd have the same problem with that as running a mainboard Huntmaster. It'll be a liability too often, unless you significantly change the deck (more lands, more midrangey, etc). Maybe a Temur Midrange deck (Temur Moon maybe) would be good with Jace though.
In the side, it's probably a Midrange powerhouse. I've heard a lot about how powerful it is, but have never played it, so I don't know exactly what it would replace (or even how to use it), but probably things like Chandra, Huntmaster, and Reveler.
Playing against Jace, counterspells sound great in game 1. Bolt can deal with it if it Brainstorms or ticks down. And, as a four-drop, you can try to go under it, building up a decent board and playing the tempo game. Postboard things could get awkward. I've been trying to board out most counters to improve topdecks against Midrange and Control, and we don't have too many other answers to Jace. If you deploy too many threats, Verdict gets you. Deploy too few, Jace bounces one and builds card advantage, or Gideon of the Trials locks it down. I think the UW matchup just got worse.
BBE I could actually see out of the side against Midrange and Control (actually, it's kind of funny how our four-drop slot is a lot like Jund's, but in the board). I know you and I both cut most counters against such decks, so our deck wouldn't actually have that many misses. BBE into Goyf, Blood Moon, a cantrip, or even Bolt isn't bad. And if you hit something you don't want to cast (EE), I believe it goes back in with the rest of the exiled cards.
I was so nervous it was going to be stoneforge. That card would wreck us. (But that's for another thread)
As already stated, Temur unbannings! At least there's potential for us this time around, even if it in reality only helps other decks.
I don't think we will be implementing BBE in any fashion. While the guaranteed 2-for-1 makes it a good card against any deck trying to beat you with value, the decks we would bring it in against don't care much about a 3/2 at all. Jund abzan grixis and Mardu have no trouble simply outclassing BBE on the ground and nullifying it's impact as that second spell gained from casting it. If they are ever forced to use removal on it that's great but for four mana I think this deck in particular wants something with a higher rate of success closing out games, by winning on its own. I could see it paired with blue to some degree of success in modern but not with delver I don't think. It is great against Jace though.
Jace is a little complicated and I'm frankly not very sure at all. He will need testing. I know for certain 2 would be the most you could fit in the 75, and 1 in the MB would probably be the limit as well. Jace is a ridiculously powerful permanent but many of moderns predators can ignore him almost completely. Tron, Affinity, Titanshift, Burn, Ad nauseum, etc. would love to see us tap out on turn four for Jace. He would be greatly effective against our bad matchups in midrange/control but may be too narrow (in terms of what decks it is 'safe' against) for the main deck.
That being said...he doesn't flip delver, isn't a threat, can't be tutored for, and isn't necessarily effective in a majority of modern matchups. The bar for entry into this deck for a card that fits those specs is ridiculously high, and Jace must do a ton of work to correct bad matchups in my mind to justify its inclusion. Definitely possible though, it is THE Jace.
One thing I wanted to point out about the Jace unbanning, stubborn denial just got a huge boost in relevance. People are going to be licking their lips when they hit four lands and see us with a mere, single island untapped...
That, and you'd be crazy not to be packing a Savage Knuckleblade to get out from under a Jace from now on.
My head's buzzing from jamming six straight hours online with a new build. It performed far better than expected. This is my record for the night, all full matches except otherwise listed. Everyone's excited about the unbans so most decks are on them. An asterisk denotes a deck that didn't play Elf or Jace (or at least I didn't see any).
WINS:
3 Jund
1 Planesewalker Jund?
3 Jeskai Control
1 Esper Control
1 UW Control
1 Temur Midrange
1 Lantern*
1 Turns*
1 Counters Company*
LOSSES:
1 Jund
1 UW Miracles
2 Jund (Game 1 only)
I started with 2 Bauble and then cut one for Obsession because I wanted to Achievement Unlocked: maxxed-out Goyfs (never happened). Obsession was actually insane. Opening it with Delver and Stubborn on the play was really funny. Love it with the Shoals as well since we can throw all the random stuff in our hand away to protect our creature, and of course it's excellent on Mandrills (5/5 so relevant).
Knuckleblade does look appealing right now but I don't feel comfortable running it with such a low curve. Seems correct for Traverse builds though. Old fogey me still on Shoals! I like that the Shoal plan (and this board plan) doesn't care as much about Rest in Peace. Sure we have Goyf and Mandrills, but no Traverse to top them off. Building around delirium is a real cost in the face of grave hate. Of course Jace and Hunt attack from different angles as well which is nice.
Some more notes: Bauble is sick in the opener but quite bad off the top. The two Sleights are there as blue spells to up the count for Shoal. Dismember is awesome for us and just what we need. 17 lands because of all the cantrips and the low curve (Shoals too); I had a second Foothills but replaced it with third Island for Path and Field of Ruin. In a few games opponents had me search out all my basics, but I never didn't have one to get, which was really nice. Getting ramped in that kind of matchup does wonders for us given our density of bombs post-board.
Mountain in the side helps with this too, and also comes in to conserve life or when we need to draw lands (Affinity, Burn)/actually cast all our top-end cards. Melody is there for Jund and other Goyf decks but I never got to cast it. Won a ton of games vs Jund with Blood Moon though. I side out all the permission in that matchup and focus on setting up my board so that I can cast whatever I draw off the top (the deck is loaded with bombs) while trying to keep the board clear. Surgical is just a random answer to a lot of stuff that comes in to disrupt graveyard synergies. I'm fine auto-losing against Dredge which is basically nowhere right now. But yeah we definitely won't post a positive record in that matchup with the one Surgical; the card's just kind of incidental hate against them and I guess might steal some games. Double Grudge over Revelry or other options because I really want to kill Lantern and Chalice. It also crushes random stuff like Madcap Moon, Hollow One, etc.
My favorite game from tonight, against UW Control:
T1: Bauble scry, see Scour, leave it (decline to play fetch) and play Island and pass. He plays a Colonnade. EOT Scour, mill Mandrills and Snap
T2: Goyf. Opp plays Fountain, Search for Azcanta
T3: Fetch, play a Goyf, and attach Curious to the first Goyf (now a 6/7 with the pump). Goyf swings for 6 dropping opp to 12. He untaps, Paths the Curious Goyf (growing the other one to 6 with enchantment), and passes
T4: Swing 6 dropping opp to 6. Serum finds Bolt and scrys Shoal to top. My hand is Bolt/Snap/Goyf/Dismember. I decline to play the other Goyf because I have lethal with Bolt-Snap-Bolt. Opp plays a fourth land and passes with all open. I don’t Bolt him to play around Cryptic counter-bounce
T5: Swing 6; he plays Snapcaster to Path it, I hard Shoal leaving up Stomping Ground. He taps out to Leak the Shoal and I let it resolve then Dismember the Snap before blocks for exactly lethal with Goyf
Anyway had a ton of fun on this deck and am excited to see if it can work in the new meta. Jace gives us a lot of late-game "oomph" and Moon is really gross against Jund and Jeskai. A few times I baited counter wars on their turn, or let them tap out for a Jace, only to punish them with Moon (rendering their Jace mostly useless) or a Jace of my own. I have been playing a lot of BR Hollow One lately and this deck just feels like that but with more disruption. Lastly, if the doomsayers are indeed correct and Modern turns more linear to get under/over these big bad four-drops, that bodes well for Temur Delver!
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
My head's buzzing from jamming six straight hours online with a new build. It performed far better than expected. This is my record for the night, all full matches except otherwise listed. Everyone's excited about the unbans so most decks are on them. An asterisk denotes a deck that didn't play Elf or Jace (or at least I didn't see any).
WINS:
3 Jund
1 Planesewalker Jund?
3 Jeskai Control
1 Esper Control
1 UW Control
1 Temur Midrange
1 Lantern*
1 Turns*
1 Counters Company*
LOSSES:
1 Jund
1 UW Miracles
2 Jund (Game 1 only)
I started with 2 Bauble and then cut one for Obsession because I wanted to Achievement Unlocked: maxxed-out Goyfs (never happened). Obsession was actually insane. Opening it with Delver and Stubborn on the play was really funny. Love it with the Shoals as well since we can throw all the random stuff in our hand away to protect our creature, and of course it's excellent on Mandrills (5/5 so relevant).
Knuckleblade does look appealing right now but I don't feel comfortable running it with such a low curve. Seems correct for Traverse builds though. Old fogey me still on Shoals! I like that the Shoal plan (and this board plan) doesn't care as much about Rest in Peace. Sure we have Goyf and Mandrills, but no Traverse to top them off. Building around delirium is a real cost in the face of grave hate. Of course Jace and Hunt attack from different angles as well which is nice.
Some more notes: Bauble is sick in the opener but quite bad off the top. The two Sleights are there as blue spells to up the count for Shoal. Dismember is awesome for us and just what we need. 17 lands because of all the cantrips and the low curve (Shoals too); I had a second Foothills but replaced it with third Island for Path and Field of Ruin. In a few games opponents had me search out all my basics, but I never didn't have one to get, which was really nice. Getting ramped in that kind of matchup does wonders for us given our density of bombs post-board.
Mountain in the side helps with this too, and also comes in to conserve life or when we need to draw lands (Affinity, Burn)/actually cast all our top-end cards. Melody is there for Jund and other Goyf decks but I never got to cast it. Won a ton of games vs Jund with Blood Moon though. I side out all the permission in that matchup and focus on setting up my board so that I can cast whatever I draw off the top (the deck is loaded with bombs) while trying to keep the board clear. Surgical is just a random answer to a lot of stuff that comes in to disrupt graveyard synergies. I'm fine auto-losing against Dredge which is basically nowhere right now. But yeah we definitely won't post a positive record in that matchup with the one Surgical; the card's just kind of incidental hate against them and I guess might steal some games. Double Grudge over Revelry or other options because I really want to kill Lantern and Chalice. It also crushes random stuff like Madcap Moon, Hollow One, etc.
My favorite game from tonight, against UW Control:
T1: Bauble scry, see Scour, leave it (decline to play fetch) and play Island and pass. He plays a Colonnade. EOT Scour, mill Mandrills and Snap
T2: Goyf. Opp plays Fountain, Search for Azcanta
T3: Fetch, play a Goyf, and attach Curious to the first Goyf (now a 6/7 with the pump). Goyf swings for 6 dropping opp to 12. He untaps, Paths the Curious Goyf (growing the other one to 6 with enchantment), and passes
T4: Swing 6 dropping opp to 6. Serum finds Bolt and scrys Shoal to top. My hand is Bolt/Snap/Goyf/Dismember. I decline to play the other Goyf because I have lethal with Bolt-Snap-Bolt. Opp plays a fourth land and passes with all open. I don’t Bolt him to play around Cryptic counter-bounce
T5: Swing 6; he plays Snapcaster to Path it, I hard Shoal leaving up Stomping Ground. He taps out to Leak the Shoal and I let it resolve then Dismember the Snap before blocks for exactly lethal with Goyf
Anyway had a ton of fun on this deck and am excited to see if it can work in the new meta. Jace gives us a lot of late-game "oomph" and Moon is really gross against Jund and Jeskai. A few times I baited counter wars on their turn, or let them tap out for a Jace, only to punish them with Moon (rendering their Jace mostly useless) or a Jace of my own. I have been playing a lot of BR Hollow One lately and this deck just feels like that but with more disruption. Lastly, if the doomsayers are indeed correct and Modern turns more linear to get under/over these big bad four-drops, that bodes well for Temur Delver!
I like your deck a lot, a part from double dismember and melody. I think we can't afford to cast two dismembers in a single game. And as many pro says "if you don't want to see a spell twice play only one copy of it". I know it's a bit of an hyperbole, but I can see replacing at least one of them with a vapor snag or similar (maybe even a echoing truth or simic charm since we lack 2 cmc spells for shoal).
Mnesci tried melody a lot in its recorded match and both of us agreed that it wasn't worth the sideboard slot. I can see roast (thanks @lemonbuster to remember me that card ) in that slot: it's easier to cast, can address the same issues (even goyf if you use mandrills wisely) and even some eldrazis or delve creatures (melody can't). It's only weaker against huge death's shadow.
If the meta really becomes faster shoal could definetly gain new appeal.
I'll stick with the traverse build for now (which is under revision), but I'm surely going to give your list a try.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
To be fair, I don't think I ended up playing more than 5 Leagues with Melody, but the card was very rarely good. I actually don't think there was a game in which it did its job. I stole a Nacatl from Big Zoo once when we were both in topdeck mode and it was my only answer! Then again, I was playing it over EE, which is fantastic. I think I'd keep my Roast in the board over it (for the reasons you mentioned).
Melody is a 2CMC Blue card though. Are there any matchups in which you want it and Shoal postboard? That is a non-zero benefit.
I am stoked to see how the meta shapes up. I'm thinking Jace decks everywhere, and then linear decks to laugh at Jace.
My Traverse list now has Deprive and Basilisk Collar in the board. Basilisk Collar has seemed really good in the ~10 tournament practice matches that I ended up boarding it in for. Lifelink is the real deal. Deathtouch is great against fatties. Depending on the meta though, I might go back to Chart and Shoal for a little while (probably should be testing both lists anyways), because I expect it to be better (in game one at least) against linear decks.
Since Ashton brought up the topic of graveyard hate, let's talk about it a bit more. Does anyone actually like grave hate against BR Hollow One? I've found Anger to be decent (deals with Bloodghast and Phoenix, while taking out any Adepts that are lying around), but don't really like Ravenous Trap here. I've been testing the matchup a bit more the last few days, and found exiling their graveyard actually doesn't do all that much. It can stop them from Delving for a while, or deal with the first few recursive threats, but they can still get you with Adept and Hollow One (or refill the yard). I imagine similar graveyard hate (Tormod's Crypt) would be about as bad. Which means my non-Anger hate is basically there for Dredge and Living End (I guess Goryo's Vengeance, but that is even rarer). Which makes me want to go back to ignoring graveyard hate. I like Anger, but it comes in for WAY more matchups. Most graveyard decks can also be slowed by Shoal, so I don't think we want hate with it, but without Shoal, I wanted a bit more game against Dredge and Hollow One. I'm thinking the hate isn't worth it. Collar also seems good there, so that is at least something. And the extra slot in the board can go to fighting the presumably upcoming Midrange and Control decks. Thoughts?
Edit: How are you all going to approach the UW matchup now? That I think will be our absolute worst one. Verdict, Jace, Gideon, Path, and all that other removal. I've been on the "cut most counters, maximize threat density, and slog through it" plan, but I'm thinking it won't take much more than a resolved walker or two to be lights out, so maybe tempo could be better? I just don't know how we should fight a deck with Jace and the best removal possible against us.
I'll say I did cast two Dismembers in one game and it was fine. The other games I saw 1 or 0, but it was always awesome the first time I saw it, and playing 2 helps us see that first one faster. The idea behind Melody is that I'm setting up 4 lands against BGx as fast as possible so I can play bombs off the top and through discard. But I trust you guys that it's actually bad. I'm gonna keep it until I can at least cast it and see for myself! Collar does seem pretty good and I'd like to find space for one of those side as well. Lastly, I'd love a Needle in the board if possible for planeswalkers. So Melody is definitely on the chopping block.
Keep permission against UW. It helps you win stack wars (/even participate) and force through Jace/Hunt, which is crucial. Shoal especially is useful for this. Also, if they figure out you don't have Leaks anymore, they'll just Jace you like crazy. Of course, Denial is our best counterspell. A lot of the time I just use cantrips to make land drops and pass doing nothing, assembling a hand full of Denials and Shoals. When I draw Mandrills and the time is right, I cast him for G and stop whatever they try to do in response (Cryptic Command a huge liability in stack wars). Then, they either Verdict (and I start over/punish them with Jace) or try to remove him again (another stack war/punish their taps with Jace). They suck against Jace with no Bolts so we can just immediately 0 him and start drowning opp in cards. Incidentally that makes Verdict a lot worse against us. We can even bait it with a couple threats on turn three and then Jace them.
I started removing permission against BGx because it was bad when they could shred my hand, especially with Liliana; they can sneak her in and then tick up forever and force us to hemorrhage cards. So I like the plan there to be stuff we can dump fast, like lands and creatures, to set up for late-game bombs off the top. But against spell-based decks with no hand disruption, permission is awesome. I will say that none of the UXs decks I faced last night had any Gideons (although I did run into some Nahiris, and just Tarfired them every time). Here's what I was doing last night against UW that I found to be effective:
I have yet to run into Hollow One, but I can't imagine the matchup is very good. Seems like Dredge 2.0 that's a little softer to Grudge but stronger vs. Shoal/beaters, as well as more consistent. Have you guys been struggling there?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I'll say I did cast two Dismembers in one game and it was fine. The other games I saw 1 or 0, but it was always awesome the first time I saw it, and playing 2 helps us see that first one faster. The idea behind Melody is that I'm setting up 4 lands against BGx as fast as possible so I can play bombs off the top and through discard. But I trust you guys that it's actually bad. I'm gonna keep it until I can at least cast it and see for myself! Collar does seem pretty good and I'd like to find space for one of those side as well. Lastly, I'd love a Needle in the board if possible for planeswalkers. So Melody is definitely on the chopping block.
I love Dismember. I haven't run a 75 without a copy for a while. I've never had the courage (or space) to put the second in the main, although it was in the side for Eldrazi for a while. Keep us posted on how often that is a liability. I like Melody as a topdeck, and your bomb strategy makes sense, but I never found it useful. Definitely give it a shot though, because I could have just had a skewed sample. I stopped testing it because I wanted to play cards that I knew were good.
Keep permission against UW. It helps you win stack wars (/even participate) and force through Jace/Hunt, which is crucial. Shoal especially is useful for this. Also, if they figure out you don't have Leaks anymore, they'll just Jace you like crazy. Of course, Denial is our best counterspell. A lot of the time I just use cantrips to make land drops and pass doing nothing, assembling a hand full of Denials and Shoals. When I draw Mandrills and the time is right, I cast him for G and stop whatever they try to do in response (Cryptic Command a huge liability in stack wars). Then, they either Verdict (and I start over/punish them with Jace) or try to remove him again (another stack war/punish their taps with Jace). They suck against Jace with no Bolts so we can just immediately 0 him and start drowning opp in cards. Incidentally that makes Verdict a lot worse against us. We can even bait it with a couple threats on turn three and then Jace them.
I started removing permission against BGx because it was bad when they could shred my hand, especially with Liliana; they can sneak her in and then tick up forever and force us to hemorrhage cards. So I like the plan there to be stuff we can dump fast, like lands and creatures, to set up for late-game bombs off the top. But against spell-based decks with no hand disruption, permission is awesome. I will say that none of the UXs decks I faced last night had any Gideons (although I did run into some Nahiris, and just Tarfired them every time).
I was wrong. I just checked my sideboard sheet, and I've been cutting Scours and Bolts against UW (plus Snag and a land), which I actually don't like either with them running Jace. I'm gonna want burn spells. I do like the idea of a non-creature bomb to punish them, but watch out for Detention Sphere when you slam your Jace. Do you guys think Keranos would shine in the Jace meta? They can fate-seal you to dodge the Bolt, but then you get to draw. And we don't run many lands, so having two "Bolts" in a row seems likely.
Here's what I was doing last night against UW that I found to be effective:
What are you Surgicaling against UW? Path? UW has been running Gideon of the Trials lately, which locks down our first threat, getting us to overextend into a verdict, and closes out the game. I've been trying to keep Dismember as an answer when they start getting in with it. I don't think I've ever had it come up postboard, so I'm not sure how viable that plan actually is.
I have yet to run into Hollow One, but I can't imagine the matchup is very good. Seems like Dredge 2.0 that's a little softer to Grudge but stronger vs. Shoal/beaters, as well as more consistent. Have you guys been struggling there?
It is really swingy. Land a 5/6 Goyf (or just 4/5 if they don't hit Angler) and you are favoured. If you don't land Goyf, usually they take it due to having a good chance of putting down an early Hollow One or two, in addition to finding Angler with all the draw. Either turn on discarded Phoenixes (which we basically just can't deal with preboard), and Flameblade Adept is extremely hard to block (unless you are interested in just never turning the corner and dying to aforementioned phoenixes).
I treat it a lot like Dredge. Counter the enabling discard if you can, land a threat, clock and continue to disrupt. The games in which I had Goyf were usually won; the ones in which I didn't were usually lost. Burning Inquiry can totally screw us, but random discard occasionally screws them. And watch out for Blood Moon postboard if you can! Postboard I actually board out a lot of my counters because I have answers in the board (Grudge, Revelry, Roast, Collar, sweepers for the little buggers, and the Ravenous Trap which is probably going to be cut from my board soon), and they are fast enough that I don't want Spell Snare or Mana Leak stuck in my hand after a bunch of big spells resolve. I keep a couple Denials (might try to keep all of them) because it is great. Hard countering Fatal Push almost makes up for potentially being stuck in hand.
I wouldn't say Melody was 'bad' but it just compared to EE so poorly in terms of the number of matchups in which you actually want it that it's hard to justify its inclusion over a second EE if that's the sort of removal you are looking for. EE is a bomb against affinity, lantern, bogles etc while being a serviceable sweeper in other creature matchups. Melody comes in against deaths shadow, other tarmogoyf decks, and nacatls and not that many other places, and if you look all of those matchups are ground EE also already covers. This format is so hard to cover with a sideboard, which makes melody narrow, even if powerful.
I actually havnt found hollow one to be that poor, like all the street wraith decks. Outside of their nut draws, tarmogoyf instantly outclasses all their threats. I commonly trade mandrills early with hollow ones. I run vapor snag to somewhat eliminate early hollow one plays and the cheap counters can stop their looting/goblin lore which leaves them durdling early. Out of the board roast and the artifact hate is a huge help and they are usually the unprepared for basilisk collar.
The Phoenix is a little annoying though so I try to remove their threat precombat; if a lose this matchups is generally due to big game hunter. So good.
While I like curator a lot, it was the obvious luxury slot that would Ben perfect to fit in a Jace. I'm also testing a second copy over bedlam reveler in the board and I'm feelings really hopeful about these changes. Jace is...awesome. Having a reliable source of card advantage could be exactly what the ddck needs.
@mnesci
Against UW I cut almost all my burn, load up on threats/moon/counters
@mnesci: Against UW I just surgical the Snapcaster target most of the time. It's also fine in a drawing-cards battle to proactively hit Path in their graveyard, especially EOT to bait a counter-war, before deploying stockpiled threats. Not uncommon to hit a copy in hand as well depending how long both players have been playing lands and passing.
@Lemon: Right I forgot about Goyf! Can imagine he's nuts against Hollow One decks. I like trying to fit burn in against UW post-Jace so we have a clean answer to slam + Brainstorm, incentivizing them to tick up first. How has the mainboard Jace been?
@all: I decided to just take your word for it and cut Melody. Playing a Collar instead.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
This is extremely anecdotal, but I am freaking out about what Collar just did to my Mardu Pyromancer opponent. After a midrange slog, we ended up in a drawn out topdeck war, with Lingering Souls (6 spirits on board at the time, but another flashbacked copy of souls made for a total of 8 during the game) laughing at my 7/8 Goyf. I topdecked Collar. The spirits stopped laughing. Then I got the Huntmaster combo off.
I know they run a bunch of removal, but we have a lot of threats postboard, and aren't winning without one on board. Collar means that we can't lose the race, so they have to remove every threat we hit. I think I like it here, even though the deathtouch is basically irrelevant (although shooting Reveler at the end with Huntmaster was certainly satisfying).
I don't think the banlist update has happened on the MTGO client as of now so have yet to play with Jace. Will try to squeeze in a few leaves when it happens.
@mnesci
Also worth noting your simic charm would have protected collar from k command. Looks like you dominated lol.
A Starcity writer called it out as a potential spec target today, so now it's already starting to move. I'm not sure what shell wants to max out on both Jace and a free counter but there's definitely potential for a powerful tempo deck. Also, pitch an extra Jace to counter a Jace. Sounds fun.
Unrelated, but if we ever find ourselves in the potential abyss of a Modern riddled with routine Jace on Jace exchanges, a Treetop Village could be a great sideboard card. 3 damage is the sweet spot to hit Jace and two mana to activate it manageable even for this deck.
I felt it super good. Control are everywhere right now and we are covered thanks to hunt, jace and early pressure. I played a match against burn and managed to 1-1 before opponents quitted. Shoal makes what they're supposed to in that match.
Curious obsession is fantastic. I put it also in the traverse version.
Knucks is great too even without traverse. Usually mandrills cost around 3 too if you don't want to nuke you gy (it can cost just G so the 3-1 split is the most correct I think). Knucks could be a hasty creature and a 3cmc blue spell for shoal (I shoaled a rift bolt for the win thanks to it).
Truth is a pet card of mine. It could be a simic charm or whatever you want. I like it very much though.
If the meta keeps being like that (I know it won't) I'm very confident.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
I've also cut the second Dismember, but in my case for a Simic Charm (list here). DM is just kind of dead in some MUs whereas Charm always has applications. I was so impressed with Curious that I actually tried a second copy over Bauble last night, but it was clunky a lot of the time so I've since returned to the 1-1 split. Will also try the Knuckleblade soon, if I can stand to cut a Drills 😢 I think Truth is fine by the way. This is a great deck for techs like that. I'll be on the lookout for more thoughts on this list if you have any!
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Echoing truth might actually pull more weight vs Entreat if miracles becomes a thing too. Though, I suppose jamming disdainful stroke until BBE/Jace hype train dies down could be a thing for us.
Actually, bouncing non-creature permanents is probably more relevant than ever. I could see dropping my maindeck Simic Charm for Echoing Truth. That could be really good in this format.
On Display of Dominance, I kind of like it. I'm inclined to think I just want more haymakers in the board, but I could see a slot for it. I like the pseudo-Hexproof mode a lot, because that is a common Simic Charm mode in those matchups. Kill a walker if you need to, or save a threat. Unfortunately, abilities still get through.
The first mode alone is probably too niche. With the second mode countering removal, I think it could actually be a defensible choice.
Dredge isn't going to be good unless you really dedicate a lot of slots so shoring up other matchups could be worthwhile.
I'd think at least a couple of copies in side could help against current builds of many midrange and control decks.
Could it enter main deck? If so how can we modify the deck? Should we maybe go up to 18 lands?
Could he be a menace for us? Which tools can we use to fight him?
I'm not good at building decks from scratch, I prefer tinker existent decks. That's why I'm asking all those questions. I need your opinions
What do you think?
I don't think Bloodbraid is for us. That's a pity since we have the first temur unban ever
Modern:
In the side, it's probably a Midrange powerhouse. I've heard a lot about how powerful it is, but have never played it, so I don't know exactly what it would replace (or even how to use it), but probably things like Chandra, Huntmaster, and Reveler.
Playing against Jace, counterspells sound great in game 1. Bolt can deal with it if it Brainstorms or ticks down. And, as a four-drop, you can try to go under it, building up a decent board and playing the tempo game. Postboard things could get awkward. I've been trying to board out most counters to improve topdecks against Midrange and Control, and we don't have too many other answers to Jace. If you deploy too many threats, Verdict gets you. Deploy too few, Jace bounces one and builds card advantage, or Gideon of the Trials locks it down. I think the UW matchup just got worse.
BBE I could actually see out of the side against Midrange and Control (actually, it's kind of funny how our four-drop slot is a lot like Jund's, but in the board). I know you and I both cut most counters against such decks, so our deck wouldn't actually have that many misses. BBE into Goyf, Blood Moon, a cantrip, or even Bolt isn't bad. And if you hit something you don't want to cast (EE), I believe it goes back in with the rest of the exiled cards.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
As already stated, Temur unbannings! At least there's potential for us this time around, even if it in reality only helps other decks.
I don't think we will be implementing BBE in any fashion. While the guaranteed 2-for-1 makes it a good card against any deck trying to beat you with value, the decks we would bring it in against don't care much about a 3/2 at all. Jund abzan grixis and Mardu have no trouble simply outclassing BBE on the ground and nullifying it's impact as that second spell gained from casting it. If they are ever forced to use removal on it that's great but for four mana I think this deck in particular wants something with a higher rate of success closing out games, by winning on its own. I could see it paired with blue to some degree of success in modern but not with delver I don't think. It is great against Jace though.
Jace is a little complicated and I'm frankly not very sure at all. He will need testing. I know for certain 2 would be the most you could fit in the 75, and 1 in the MB would probably be the limit as well. Jace is a ridiculously powerful permanent but many of moderns predators can ignore him almost completely. Tron, Affinity, Titanshift, Burn, Ad nauseum, etc. would love to see us tap out on turn four for Jace. He would be greatly effective against our bad matchups in midrange/control but may be too narrow (in terms of what decks it is 'safe' against) for the main deck.
That being said...he doesn't flip delver, isn't a threat, can't be tutored for, and isn't necessarily effective in a majority of modern matchups. The bar for entry into this deck for a card that fits those specs is ridiculously high, and Jace must do a ton of work to correct bad matchups in my mind to justify its inclusion. Definitely possible though, it is THE Jace.
One thing I wanted to point out about the Jace unbanning, stubborn denial just got a huge boost in relevance. People are going to be licking their lips when they hit four lands and see us with a mere, single island untapped...
That, and you'd be crazy not to be packing a Savage Knuckleblade to get out from under a Jace from now on.
WINS:
3 Jund
1 Planesewalker Jund?
3 Jeskai Control
1 Esper Control
1 UW Control
1 Temur Midrange
1 Lantern*
1 Turns*
1 Counters Company*
LOSSES:
1 Jund
1 UW Miracles
2 Jund (Game 1 only)
I started with 2 Bauble and then cut one for Obsession because I wanted to Achievement Unlocked: maxxed-out Goyfs (never happened). Obsession was actually insane. Opening it with Delver and Stubborn on the play was really funny. Love it with the Shoals as well since we can throw all the random stuff in our hand away to protect our creature, and of course it's excellent on Mandrills (5/5 so relevant).
Knuckleblade does look appealing right now but I don't feel comfortable running it with such a low curve. Seems correct for Traverse builds though. Old fogey me still on Shoals! I like that the Shoal plan (and this board plan) doesn't care as much about Rest in Peace. Sure we have Goyf and Mandrills, but no Traverse to top them off. Building around delirium is a real cost in the face of grave hate. Of course Jace and Hunt attack from different angles as well which is nice.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hooting Mandrills
2 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (21)
4 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Tarfire
2 Dismember
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Mana Leak
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Serum Visions
2 Sleight of Hand
Other (2)
1 Mishra's Bauble
1 Curious Obsession
Lands (17)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Blood Moon
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Mountain
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Pyroclasm
1 Entrancing Melody
Mountain in the side helps with this too, and also comes in to conserve life or when we need to draw lands (Affinity, Burn)/actually cast all our top-end cards. Melody is there for Jund and other Goyf decks but I never got to cast it. Won a ton of games vs Jund with Blood Moon though. I side out all the permission in that matchup and focus on setting up my board so that I can cast whatever I draw off the top (the deck is loaded with bombs) while trying to keep the board clear. Surgical is just a random answer to a lot of stuff that comes in to disrupt graveyard synergies. I'm fine auto-losing against Dredge which is basically nowhere right now. But yeah we definitely won't post a positive record in that matchup with the one Surgical; the card's just kind of incidental hate against them and I guess might steal some games. Double Grudge over Revelry or other options because I really want to kill Lantern and Chalice. It also crushes random stuff like Madcap Moon, Hollow One, etc.
My favorite game from tonight, against UW Control:
T1: Bauble scry, see Scour, leave it (decline to play fetch) and play Island and pass. He plays a Colonnade. EOT Scour, mill Mandrills and Snap
T2: Goyf. Opp plays Fountain, Search for Azcanta
T3: Fetch, play a Goyf, and attach Curious to the first Goyf (now a 6/7 with the pump). Goyf swings for 6 dropping opp to 12. He untaps, Paths the Curious Goyf (growing the other one to 6 with enchantment), and passes
T4: Swing 6 dropping opp to 6. Serum finds Bolt and scrys Shoal to top. My hand is Bolt/Snap/Goyf/Dismember. I decline to play the other Goyf because I have lethal with Bolt-Snap-Bolt. Opp plays a fourth land and passes with all open. I don’t Bolt him to play around Cryptic counter-bounce
T5: Swing 6; he plays Snapcaster to Path it, I hard Shoal leaving up Stomping Ground. He taps out to Leak the Shoal and I let it resolve then Dismember the Snap before blocks for exactly lethal with Goyf
Anyway had a ton of fun on this deck and am excited to see if it can work in the new meta. Jace gives us a lot of late-game "oomph" and Moon is really gross against Jund and Jeskai. A few times I baited counter wars on their turn, or let them tap out for a Jace, only to punish them with Moon (rendering their Jace mostly useless) or a Jace of my own. I have been playing a lot of BR Hollow One lately and this deck just feels like that but with more disruption. Lastly, if the doomsayers are indeed correct and Modern turns more linear to get under/over these big bad four-drops, that bodes well for Temur Delver!
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I like your deck a lot, a part from double dismember and melody. I think we can't afford to cast two dismembers in a single game. And as many pro says "if you don't want to see a spell twice play only one copy of it". I know it's a bit of an hyperbole, but I can see replacing at least one of them with a vapor snag or similar (maybe even a echoing truth or simic charm since we lack 2 cmc spells for shoal).
Mnesci tried melody a lot in its recorded match and both of us agreed that it wasn't worth the sideboard slot. I can see roast (thanks @lemonbuster to remember me that card ) in that slot: it's easier to cast, can address the same issues (even goyf if you use mandrills wisely) and even some eldrazis or delve creatures (melody can't). It's only weaker against huge death's shadow.
If the meta really becomes faster shoal could definetly gain new appeal.
I'll stick with the traverse build for now (which is under revision), but I'm surely going to give your list a try.
Modern:
Melody is a 2CMC Blue card though. Are there any matchups in which you want it and Shoal postboard? That is a non-zero benefit.
I am stoked to see how the meta shapes up. I'm thinking Jace decks everywhere, and then linear decks to laugh at Jace.
My Traverse list now has Deprive and Basilisk Collar in the board. Basilisk Collar has seemed really good in the ~10 tournament practice matches that I ended up boarding it in for. Lifelink is the real deal. Deathtouch is great against fatties. Depending on the meta though, I might go back to Chart and Shoal for a little while (probably should be testing both lists anyways), because I expect it to be better (in game one at least) against linear decks.
Since Ashton brought up the topic of graveyard hate, let's talk about it a bit more. Does anyone actually like grave hate against BR Hollow One? I've found Anger to be decent (deals with Bloodghast and Phoenix, while taking out any Adepts that are lying around), but don't really like Ravenous Trap here. I've been testing the matchup a bit more the last few days, and found exiling their graveyard actually doesn't do all that much. It can stop them from Delving for a while, or deal with the first few recursive threats, but they can still get you with Adept and Hollow One (or refill the yard). I imagine similar graveyard hate (Tormod's Crypt) would be about as bad. Which means my non-Anger hate is basically there for Dredge and Living End (I guess Goryo's Vengeance, but that is even rarer). Which makes me want to go back to ignoring graveyard hate. I like Anger, but it comes in for WAY more matchups. Most graveyard decks can also be slowed by Shoal, so I don't think we want hate with it, but without Shoal, I wanted a bit more game against Dredge and Hollow One. I'm thinking the hate isn't worth it. Collar also seems good there, so that is at least something. And the extra slot in the board can go to fighting the presumably upcoming Midrange and Control decks. Thoughts?
Edit: How are you all going to approach the UW matchup now? That I think will be our absolute worst one. Verdict, Jace, Gideon, Path, and all that other removal. I've been on the "cut most counters, maximize threat density, and slog through it" plan, but I'm thinking it won't take much more than a resolved walker or two to be lights out, so maybe tempo could be better? I just don't know how we should fight a deck with Jace and the best removal possible against us.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
Keep permission against UW. It helps you win stack wars (/even participate) and force through Jace/Hunt, which is crucial. Shoal especially is useful for this. Also, if they figure out you don't have Leaks anymore, they'll just Jace you like crazy. Of course, Denial is our best counterspell. A lot of the time I just use cantrips to make land drops and pass doing nothing, assembling a hand full of Denials and Shoals. When I draw Mandrills and the time is right, I cast him for G and stop whatever they try to do in response (Cryptic Command a huge liability in stack wars). Then, they either Verdict (and I start over/punish them with Jace) or try to remove him again (another stack war/punish their taps with Jace). They suck against Jace with no Bolts so we can just immediately 0 him and start drowning opp in cards. Incidentally that makes Verdict a lot worse against us. We can even bait it with a couple threats on turn three and then Jace them.
I started removing permission against BGx because it was bad when they could shred my hand, especially with Liliana; they can sneak her in and then tick up forever and force us to hemorrhage cards. So I like the plan there to be stuff we can dump fast, like lands and creatures, to set up for late-game bombs off the top. But against spell-based decks with no hand disruption, permission is awesome. I will say that none of the UXs decks I faced last night had any Gideons (although I did run into some Nahiris, and just Tarfired them every time). Here's what I was doing last night against UW that I found to be effective:
UW PLAN
-2 Dismember
-2 Shoal
-2 Scour
+2 Hunt
+2 Jace
+1 Surgical
+1 Mountain
I have yet to run into Hollow One, but I can't imagine the matchup is very good. Seems like Dredge 2.0 that's a little softer to Grudge but stronger vs. Shoal/beaters, as well as more consistent. Have you guys been struggling there?
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I love Dismember. I haven't run a 75 without a copy for a while. I've never had the courage (or space) to put the second in the main, although it was in the side for Eldrazi for a while. Keep us posted on how often that is a liability. I like Melody as a topdeck, and your bomb strategy makes sense, but I never found it useful. Definitely give it a shot though, because I could have just had a skewed sample. I stopped testing it because I wanted to play cards that I knew were good.
I was wrong. I just checked my sideboard sheet, and I've been cutting Scours and Bolts against UW (plus Snag and a land), which I actually don't like either with them running Jace. I'm gonna want burn spells. I do like the idea of a non-creature bomb to punish them, but watch out for Detention Sphere when you slam your Jace. Do you guys think Keranos would shine in the Jace meta? They can fate-seal you to dodge the Bolt, but then you get to draw. And we don't run many lands, so having two "Bolts" in a row seems likely.
What are you Surgicaling against UW? Path? UW has been running Gideon of the Trials lately, which locks down our first threat, getting us to overextend into a verdict, and closes out the game. I've been trying to keep Dismember as an answer when they start getting in with it. I don't think I've ever had it come up postboard, so I'm not sure how viable that plan actually is.
It is really swingy. Land a 5/6 Goyf (or just 4/5 if they don't hit Angler) and you are favoured. If you don't land Goyf, usually they take it due to having a good chance of putting down an early Hollow One or two, in addition to finding Angler with all the draw. Either turn on discarded Phoenixes (which we basically just can't deal with preboard), and Flameblade Adept is extremely hard to block (unless you are interested in just never turning the corner and dying to aforementioned phoenixes).
I treat it a lot like Dredge. Counter the enabling discard if you can, land a threat, clock and continue to disrupt. The games in which I had Goyf were usually won; the ones in which I didn't were usually lost. Burning Inquiry can totally screw us, but random discard occasionally screws them. And watch out for Blood Moon postboard if you can! Postboard I actually board out a lot of my counters because I have answers in the board (Grudge, Revelry, Roast, Collar, sweepers for the little buggers, and the Ravenous Trap which is probably going to be cut from my board soon), and they are fast enough that I don't want Spell Snare or Mana Leak stuck in my hand after a bunch of big spells resolve. I keep a couple Denials (might try to keep all of them) because it is great. Hard countering Fatal Push almost makes up for potentially being stuck in hand.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
I actually havnt found hollow one to be that poor, like all the street wraith decks. Outside of their nut draws, tarmogoyf instantly outclasses all their threats. I commonly trade mandrills early with hollow ones. I run vapor snag to somewhat eliminate early hollow one plays and the cheap counters can stop their looting/goblin lore which leaves them durdling early. Out of the board roast and the artifact hate is a huge help and they are usually the unprepared for basilisk collar.
The Phoenix is a little annoying though so I try to remove their threat precombat; if a lose this matchups is generally due to big game hunter. So good.
Little update to those interested-
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Gnarlwood Dryad
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Savage Knuckleblade
2 Hooting Mandrills
Artifacts:3
3 Mishra's Bauble
Sorceries:7
4 Serum Visions
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Instants:18
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Tarfire
2 Thought Scour
2 Vapor Snag
1 Deprive
2 Mana Leak
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands:17
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Roast
2 Firespout
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Feed the Clan
2 Blood Moon
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Bojuka Bog
While I like curator a lot, it was the obvious luxury slot that would Ben perfect to fit in a Jace. I'm also testing a second copy over bedlam reveler in the board and I'm feelings really hopeful about these changes. Jace is...awesome. Having a reliable source of card advantage could be exactly what the ddck needs.
@mnesci
Against UW I cut almost all my burn, load up on threats/moon/counters
@Lemon: Right I forgot about Goyf! Can imagine he's nuts against Hollow One decks. I like trying to fit burn in against UW post-Jace so we have a clean answer to slam + Brainstorm, incentivizing them to tick up first. How has the mainboard Jace been?
@all: I decided to just take your word for it and cut Melody. Playing a Collar instead.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I know they run a bunch of removal, but we have a lot of threats postboard, and aren't winning without one on board. Collar means that we can't lose the race, so they have to remove every threat we hit. I think I like it here, even though the deathtouch is basically irrelevant (although shooting Reveler at the end with Huntmaster was certainly satisfying).
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
@mnesci
Also worth noting your simic charm would have protected collar from k command. Looks like you dominated lol.
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Unrelated, but if we ever find ourselves in the potential abyss of a Modern riddled with routine Jace on Jace exchanges, a Treetop Village could be a great sideboard card. 3 damage is the sweet spot to hit Jace and two mana to activate it manageable even for this deck.
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Curious Obsession
1 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Tarfire
1 Dismember
1 Echoing Truth
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Mana Leak
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Serum Visions
2 Sleight of Hand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Blood Moon
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Mountain
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Anger of the Gods
Curious obsession is fantastic. I put it also in the traverse version.
Knucks is great too even without traverse. Usually mandrills cost around 3 too if you don't want to nuke you gy (it can cost just G so the 3-1 split is the most correct I think). Knucks could be a hasty creature and a 3cmc blue spell for shoal (I shoaled a rift bolt for the win thanks to it).
Truth is a pet card of mine. It could be a simic charm or whatever you want. I like it very much though.
If the meta keeps being like that (I know it won't) I'm very confident.
Modern:
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Display of dominance anybody? Lol! Vs Jace and Lilliana?
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
On Display of Dominance, I kind of like it. I'm inclined to think I just want more haymakers in the board, but I could see a slot for it. I like the pseudo-Hexproof mode a lot, because that is a common Simic Charm mode in those matchups. Kill a walker if you need to, or save a threat. Unfortunately, abilities still get through.
The first mode alone is probably too niche. With the second mode countering removal, I think it could actually be a defensible choice.
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg